I sincerely think something will happen along the lines of "Gaster finally does something but you're not quite sure it's him at first", and then the "song from the sea" turns out to be his theme. I can imagine it being like a perfect "oh fuck, it's happening" moment.
Another Him would be a good candidate for the song from the sea, in that context. It's sufficiently calm (I kind of can't imagine it being an energetic song smh), it's just a slower version of Gaster's motif, it's the first song we hear in the game, and the context for hearing it is kind of like floating in a blue-purple-ish void (like deep ocean)
A bit morbid, but something that this video made me think about is how deep sleep or near death, as reported from those who have had near death experiences, feels like being submerged in an ocean with waves gently pushing against you. You can't perceive the void, the darkness, but you can perceive being close to it. Oceans, especially with your darkness is related to nostalgia conclusion, represents freedom but they also present a very real danger if one is not careful traversing it. In some ways, there's a danger to nostalgia and it can trap you, leaving you yearning for it forever more. This song seems to capture that nostalgia, but it is also siren's call if one either listens too close or is not careful, much like nostalgia itself. We shall see what this may all mean as the prophesied story follows its seemingly set path. Hopefully I didn't go too wild and dark there but I'm full of shawarma and this video's got me thinking. Very refreshing work, Vivat!
As someone who has has a near death experience, I can attest to this, and think this look at the symbolism in this way is fascinating (not to mention completely on brand for Toby Fox to consider putting in a game)
You forgot IMAGE_DEPTH and the Sound Test. Onion says, while they've heard the whole Song once before, that they've also heard just *a piece* of a song, too. This might tie into the Sound Test, which takes place at a river bank, and with most of its songs just being 1-2 seconds of what appear to be but pieces of longer songs.
As of now, I think this "old song" is Penumbra Phantasm. It's not a "new song". An unfinished midi of it has a very distinct whale sample used in it, so it has something to do with water. Toby has hinted at it being related to Deltarune by saying "ＡＴ ＂ＳＨＡＤＯＷ＇Ｓ ＥＤＧＥ，＂ ＳＨＡＴＴＥＲ ＴＨＥ ＴＷＩＬＩＧＨＴ ＲＥＶＥＲＩＥ" when asked about it, which directly ties to his first tweet "The edge of the shadow, where reality and dream meet." (come on that's obviously about Deltarune.) Darkness also has A LOT of water symbolism and Penumbra Phantasm has both water and shadow symbolism. Penumbra Phantasm literally means "An Illusion at shadow's edge" It is also worth noting that The Holy's melody sounds like a modified version of a part of Penumbra Phantasm. Now, the issue with this is that this was meant to be a Homestuck song and a large part of it uses "Doctor", which is not Toby's motif. But do remember that Hopes And Dreams ALSO has Doctor hidden in it. Penumbra Phantasm also uses a modified version of Doctor as a base, which is technically original? It was used in a few homestuck tracks but it can probably be considered original. This wouldn't be the first time Toby made a song based on "Doctor" and used it in his game lol.
@@QSBraWQ Toby's old Tumblr iirc. He responded with that when asked about the song back in 2011. Do note that both this and his first tweet were posted at around the same time that Toby had his fever dream.
I'm glad this channel exists, makes me feel less crazy when I make certain connections and interpretations regarding undertale and deltarune that seem logical to me but I never see them talked about anywhere else
Theory: The song Onion hears comes from Dess, who is trapped in The Depths. Before disappearing, she used to play or sing the tune near Onion's home. Maybe, with her guitar?
The fact that I’ve never heard anything about the old song by the sea makes this all the more intriguing. Now I wonder if we’ll get anymore mentions to it in future chapters. I also feel nostalgic towards It’s Raining Somewhere Else, mainly because of its tune, and the fact that I heard it in videos LONG before I ever heard about Undertale. Great video, I hope you have a good day/night. 💜
UT/DR do such a good job at evoking a sense of mystery and intrigue with the more obscure little questions like this. People (understandably) focus on a lot of the major plot/world mechanic mysteries currently in Deltarune, but for me its this type of small possibly never to be answered stuff that really gets me. Toby has done a really good job at stoking that kind of stuff in Undertale and he really has cranked it up to 11 with Deltarune. Once the game is fully out and (a decent chunk) of the major mysteries are more clear/solved, it'll probably be stuff like this that'll keep that feeling going. A kind of wistful lost memory (with some slight ominous undertones?). And what do you know, that seems a bit like how they describe the song of the sea! Or it's a homestuck reference. It's always a homestuck reference.
Only after seeing what characters are prominent in Deltarune, I have to wonder if "starts with G" was always setting up a fake-out where we think we'll find Gaster but the person of importance was really Gerson
Ohhh ? That's interesting!! To be honest I doubt it since Gaster is associated with phonecalls a lot in Deltarune (Spamton or the garbage noises coming from your phone in the dark world) but it would be so cool...
Girl I love how the vid got suddenly derailed by "it's raining somewhere else", this is my first time watching your channel and I can already see that you love it lol
I don't necessarily agree that IRSE is going to show up in Deltarune, but I think it's interesting to note that the track "sans.", which shares IRSE's leitmotif, is the only Undertale track that has so far appeared unaltered in not only Deltarune proper but on the soundtrack, as well. That would make it possible IRSE to show up without being divorced from its original musical context.
You have no idea how happy I was to see the title of this video. The topic of the old song coming from the sea is something I always found very very interesting. One thing I wanted to note is I found something while re-reading the dialogue for onion in deltarune that might support your theory that it's raining somewhere else is the old song. One of onions lines is "It's not a "new" song" when talking about the song coming from the sea. Perhaps the fact that onion states it's not a new song could serve as a hint to the song being something people have already heard before? Maybe this song is something people who have played undertale will be already familiar with, thus not making it a "new" song. After all what is one song from undertale that is just straight up reused in deltarune without any changes to it? sans.
It does seem pretty plausible to me that the river person's angel line is just about Asriel/Chara, so I'm not sure we can infer much from it. Undertale's plot does involve the coming of a being who once saw the surface and ends up emptying the Underground. It's also not clear to me in Deltarune whether the angel is coming or if it's already here. (Edit: Though I guess, even if the angel has been around since the start of Deltarune, Deltarune wasn't released yet when Undertale was released...) But things certainly can end up having double meanings, so it does seem worth noting at least.
22:00 Yeah. I've talked about it a few times before to friends and people on forums how weirdly important Waterfall is in Undertale. I've been saying it for no exaggeration, YEARS. I'm really glad that someone with a lot of views is pointing it out too. Not to mention that all the tablets explaining Undertale's history are in Waterfall, which basically tells you outright "Hey guys, THIS is the big lore importance area!". It has the echo flowers, the dance shoes, the hidden item Legendary Artifact that Toby steals from us, the music box, don't even get me *STARTED* ON THAT _MUSIC BOX,_ the voice that tells us about the creepy face behind us, napsta-and-hapsta'blook's homes, Gerson's shop, the flashbacks of *_CHARA'S_* memories, and SO. FRIKKEN. MUCH. MORE! It is definitely the "Lore Hot Spot" area of the entire game in my opinion. It definitely holds mysteries we the fandom haven't figured out yet. I am sure of that. Not only that, but the entire area has song after song that feels nostalgic and calming. Like this is a familiar place... 😅 Sorry I'm rambling again... TL;DR I fully agree with you and then some about the huge importance of Waterfall.
this is part of the reason why waterfall is probably my favourite area in all of undertale. the way it sucked me into the story was crazy. reading those ancient glyphs one by one while the music was playing in the background and all that... the atmosphere was set perfectly in waterfall, and from there on, i was 100% invested in undertale.
Great Video! Its nice to sea someone talk about this subject. It would be cool to hear your opinion about the shadow crystals as I feel that is also under discussed.
I'm quite interested in the Shadow Crystals, but I would need to think about a way to talk about them without overlapping too much with Jaru. Thanks for watching!
I stumbled onto this, and I adore it! Great video. It's the obscure tie in make Toby's worlds so alive. "It's Raining Somewhere Else" is a favourite of mine... But I don't think it's the Old Sea Song. (I always thought it was about the Goner Kid.) I do agree that Shyren and Shyra know the song-- but how does Frisk know it? They shouldn't, but they do. So Chara must have. Also, the ice palace that has been repeatedly forshadowed is implied to be underwater. In Undertale, we fell down over and over (falling down is the monster equivalent to death) while in Deltarune the imagery has been repeatly drowning... I don't know what it means yet. Now for something I think you will very much enjoy, as a fellow "It's Raining Somewhere Else" connoisseur- There is an old 1970 song by the band "The Guess Who" that is eerily similar. It's called Sour Suite. I swear you could melody these songs into each other seamlessly. Have a listen and read the lyrics. I want your two cents.
Some really interesting ideas in this video, plus I really appreciate your discussion of Deltarune's themes of escapism, nostalgia and innocence, I feel like that kind of thematic analysis is often missing from theorycrafting. Subscribed :)
YOO, spampton sweepstakes.... that blue chair with water dripping sfx. and turning into a void when you hover over it.. another water darkness connection
Great video, man. It's the first time TH-cam reccomended your channel and I like it. About the song, I don't think it will be literally IRSE tbh. Instead I believe the real OSBTS will have some references to it (maybe the instrumental or a leitmotif), like the Dummy part of Big Shot. On general, Toby seems to avoid to use the same song twice, with only a few exceptions. He, however, sometimes uses extended versions of musics already played (like NYE HE HE and Bonetrousle), which makes Don't Forget and Find Her more probable in my opinion.
I love this video so much, and I love the connections between the ocean, hometown, and the darkworlds that you make. It paints a picture of grandure, specificity, and personal emotion that connects very heavily with me; and having it being tied together by a nostalgic, ominous song really touches me. I'm not sure what the identity of the song might be, and we might never know. I don't necessarily think that it's raining somewhere else is the song, but I definitely wouldn't be mad if it was. This was a fantastic video, I loved the pacing, vibes, humor; everything just came together really well. I hope you have a great break, relax and focus on yourself. I will always be looking forward to hearing what else you are cooking
23:27 I'd also like to mention any water theme named Waterfall songs, and the song that plays when you fight the amalgamation with Snowdrake's mom fused into it. Also perhaps the ominous song that plays as the default for all the genocide encounters. After all, what song is better tied to the themes of darkness than that one? Even if it may be a little out of left field.
return of the queen!!! i don't have a super deep comment lol I just wanted to say it's soooooo juicy too see someone talking about Deltarune in a way that really strongly resonates with my own takes on the game and its themes. This is going to sound a little like a non sequiter but I did want to ask if you had ever read the When They Cry series, particularly Umineko? Pretty much everything to do w/the way I engage with fiction is founded on the way Umineko influenced my views as a formative work and I was just curious as if that was the same for you or you were just coming to similar conclusions from a different direction.
@@Vivat_Veritas In that case, I definitely recommend it! I find that a lot of folks who really vibe with UTDR tend to also really enjoy Umineko & vice versa so I think you would dig it! My only rec up front would be to double check a CW list before going in just because it is ultimately a horror game and shit DOES get grim (tho imo not unnecessarily or without purpose & associated catharsis) but I hope it clicks for you!
Something I've been considering more recently is what the importance of the name "Gaster" is, and more specifically how it relates to the way he speaks. I mean, we are already pretty sure the "W. D." part stands for "Wingdings", representing his speaking font like Sans and Papyrus' names, but what about the "Gaster" part? This may be a bit of a stretch, but write "GASTER" (yes, all caps, just the same way he speaks in Undertale) in the Wingdings 1 font and you'll see a reference to water, where the old song plays from, snow, the trademark of Noelle, and therefore the Angel, a pointing hand, which I take as a reference to the pose Kris makes when performing ACT commands, which Ralsei himself implies is a "unique talent to Kris", and therefore is more about OUR influence than Kris', and the sun, representing the light and lightners. Aside from the first two letters, which show hands with 1 and 2 fingers up respectively, everything is a direct summary the key components of the prophecy of Deltarune. And yes, this may just be a coincidence, but consider the fact that if Gaster didn't write all of his text in all-caps, or Toby decided to pick ANY other name than "Gaster", say that contained a M, N, L, J, K, O, P, Q, X, Y, Z, B, or a couple others, the name would not makr any sense in connection with the prophecy at all. If you think that connecting the pointing hand to Kris and the player is a stretch, imagine if his name had a random bomb, waving flag, or smiley face in it. Point is, I think it's reasonable to assume Toby knows what he's doing anf has at least SOME reason for the name choice. Whether this is the reason or not, we SHOULD be looking into it more I feel.
Another wonderful Vivat Veritas video! I really love this channel. Amidst the (quite frankly) batshit insane theorycrafting channels, it's nice to have someone like you who dials things down & focuses on the more niche & underappreciated parts of these two games I love. So thank you vv much!!
But isn't "It's Raining Somewhere Else" a sans motif song? About half the melody in the same melody as the one in the sans. song? It's nostlagic for us, but it'd be odd for something sans associated to be considered nostalgic to Hometown residents for a long time like Kris or Noelle, where Sans and his brother are new to the town and Kris presumably meets him the first time in Chapter 1? Though I don't have a better idea though...
Onion also mentions wanting to start a band in Undertale, if you go back. I am sure it is just a throwaway thing, but it is interesting that music does come up in both games.
Very good theory but it has a small flaw, the title of the song is "it's RAINING somewhere else" and if the song is coming from the sea, well... it can't be raining underwater, unless the connection is rain water ocean
Ralsei first appears in a cloak that makes him look like River Person. If we're looking for a Deltarune equivalent for River Person, it's likely Ralsei.
Hi, I really liked the video! It's really one of the better Deltarune Theory/Analysis videos out there, and this is also one of my favorite mysteries in Deltarune. Keep up the good work! By the way, just wanted to let you know that at about 6:00 minutes into the video, it's a bit hard to hear you over the music. (I guess Waterfall is an unexpectedly loud track.)
Thanks so much! And yeah, I do have a bit of difficulty balancing the Waterfall track. I really just shouldn’t use it anymore since it happens every time!
Water and music make me think about The Tempest, I wonder what it would look like to parallel the play to Deltarune. Perhaps Gaster is Prospero, Dess as Ariel?
Well I don't know why the river person would mention the song such an ominous way (outside of them being an inherently ominous person in general). I don't think we really need to look into why Onion-son is so ominous about it. In chapter 1 Onion-son ends the conversation with him by telling Kris that he'll tell them a secret he "only tells friends" tomorrow in an incredibly ominous way, and in chapter 2, that secret is revealed to be him wanting to start a band. Given this, it seems like ending the conversation in the most ominous and mysterious way possible, only to be revealed to be mundane the next chapter seems like it's going to be a running gag with Onion-son, it might legitimately not be that deep. But what are the unsolved mystery test box of the river person is still oddly similar to the events mentioned by Onion-son, so who knows. P.S. these speech to text function on my phone keeps autocorrecting "son" to "song". Ooooio, spOoky./j
I think it's from the dark world... the ocean can be so big and vast that when you go deep enough there are places without light or even oxygen for that matter
23:35 the song is called "It's Raining Somewhere Else" ??? I heard a youtuber call it that and I assumed they had the title wrong. I thought it was just "It's Raining Somewhere" (entirely because of Undertale the Musical)
I do have a see some connection of ocean and water with deltarune. If you look at some of the unused song files, there a song file that sound like waves from a beach. Also ocean has been associated with the subconscious and dreams.
very chill vid, i liked the meditative aspect until the raining somewhere else bit lol i promise you have unironically ruined any chance of me taking any theory around that song seriously lmao
I wouldn't even be mad. I expect Deltarune to be self-contained, but can you imagine the absolute mind screw if there ends up being some Easter egg or hidden route where you actually have to go back to Undertale and do certain things?
Why not "Undertale"? It's played on guitar, which makes it linked to Dess; it uses the Asriel's theme leitmotiv, which has a heavy nostalgic impact; and the music that plays during Sans judgement in UT, conveniently named "The Choice", is a slowed down version of it, which connects "Undertale" to Deltarune's thematics. That's also, according to him, the song that Toby worked on the most during UT dev, changing it a lot for it to be perfect. The only argument I found against my hypothesis is the absence of connection with water/ocean. Do some of you guys have any other evidence to add, wether in favor or against my train of thoughts? I'd be interested to see it.
Somewhat irrelevant to the topic at hand, and maybe you covered this in your It’s Raining Somewhere Else video, but given the common theory that UT sans is actually from deltarune, maybe the “Somewhere Else” is deltarune and we’ll get a track called “It’s Raining” in a future chapter
@@1th_to_comment. Gaster is not trapped in code. That’s made up by the fandom. Undertale tells us he was “shattered across time and space.” Dess being trapped in code is possible, but it is still a big leap from the small amount of confirmed evidence we have on her
@4:53-.-I have never thought that this line referred to Gaster, and always thought this connection was a stretch. Entry 17 does uses all caps, and the hands that are all on the capital letters, which include the two most common letters in english, making them appear quite frequently, and technically "hands" is the most common motif in the font, I don't think any of this, even combined, necessarily makes hands the most notable thing about the font. Well hands are the most common motif, there are still only six hand characters (haha number associated with Gaster haha), it's only the most common because the symbols in the font are all over the place. And let's be honest, if this line of dialogue wasn't in the game, would anyone be associating the font with hands that strongly? Will there be any reason to associate Gaster with hands? I just think this is an incredibly tenuous connection. Like think of it from the perspective of intentionally trying to light a piece of dialogue that references Gaster, specifically through referencing the font he uses. Is "speaking in hands" really the phrasing you would go with? Is it even a top 10 contender? I wouldn't think so. I would go with something more like "the man who writes in decipherably", or "the man who speaks like a dingbat" (referencing WingDings category as a dingbat font). I don't know what would compel Toby to use this wording. And please don't mention how it would make it "too obvious", as if most of the things that connect to gangster aren't that obvious.
@@jargalo0098-.-I just imagined a scenario for the river person checked into the hotel, left the room, and then realized they would have to pay for it again in order to get their stuff back. And from that day four, a warning to not check into the Mettaton hotel was put into the shuffle of random things they say. Maybe that's a bit much, but I still think it's more likely then Gaster, because at least that NPC has a giant hand for a head.
Vivet has the comfiest voice in the whole deltarune community
RIGHT like it's so soothingly peaceful
oh it's you, sup
@@WeaselWeaselW Hi Weebl :D
Chess again, I saw you on truant’s bg3 bard run. prolific man.
tho i guess vivet makes sense to see u in cause she was in the acds
@@Splitboltxful i messaged u on discord
I sincerely think something will happen along the lines of "Gaster finally does something but you're not quite sure it's him at first", and then the "song from the sea" turns out to be his theme. I can imagine it being like a perfect "oh fuck, it's happening" moment.
Another Him would be a good candidate for the song from the sea, in that context. It's sufficiently calm (I kind of can't imagine it being an energetic song smh), it's just a slower version of Gaster's motif, it's the first song we hear in the game, and the context for hearing it is kind of like floating in a blue-purple-ish void (like deep ocean)
@@nataliaborys1554plus, the background was revealed to BE the ocean but edited
A bit morbid, but something that this video made me think about is how deep sleep or near death, as reported from those who have had near death experiences, feels like being submerged in an ocean with waves gently pushing against you. You can't perceive the void, the darkness, but you can perceive being close to it. Oceans, especially with your darkness is related to nostalgia conclusion, represents freedom but they also present a very real danger if one is not careful traversing it. In some ways, there's a danger to nostalgia and it can trap you, leaving you yearning for it forever more. This song seems to capture that nostalgia, but it is also siren's call if one either listens too close or is not careful, much like nostalgia itself. We shall see what this may all mean as the prophesied story follows its seemingly set path.
Hopefully I didn't go too wild and dark there but I'm full of shawarma and this video's got me thinking. Very refreshing work, Vivat!
As someone who has has a near death experience, I can attest to this, and think this look at the symbolism in this way is fascinating (not to mention completely on brand for Toby Fox to consider putting in a game)
Near Dess experience
@@Zyrdrakyll You did NOT just do that 😭✋
You forgot IMAGE_DEPTH and the Sound Test.
Onion says, while they've heard the whole Song once before, that they've also heard just *a piece* of a song, too. This might tie into the Sound Test, which takes place at a river bank, and with most of its songs just being 1-2 seconds of what appear to be but pieces of longer songs.
yes, that's what also I was thinking
Uh oh, my brain is doing things. GASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTERGASTER
As of now, I think this "old song" is Penumbra Phantasm. It's not a "new song". An unfinished midi of it has a very distinct whale sample used in it, so it has something to do with water. Toby has hinted at it being related to Deltarune by saying "ＡＴ ＂ＳＨＡＤＯＷ＇Ｓ ＥＤＧＥ，＂ ＳＨＡＴＴＥＲ ＴＨＥ ＴＷＩＬＩＧＨＴ ＲＥＶＥＲＩＥ" when asked about it, which directly ties to his first tweet "The edge of the shadow, where reality and dream meet." (come on that's obviously about Deltarune.) Darkness also has A LOT of water symbolism and Penumbra Phantasm has both water and shadow symbolism. Penumbra Phantasm literally means "An Illusion at shadow's edge"
It is also worth noting that The Holy's melody sounds like a modified version of a part of Penumbra Phantasm.
Now, the issue with this is that this was meant to be a Homestuck song and a large part of it uses "Doctor", which is not Toby's motif. But do remember that Hopes And Dreams ALSO has Doctor hidden in it. Penumbra Phantasm also uses a modified version of Doctor as a base, which is technically original? It was used in a few homestuck tracks but it can probably be considered original. This wouldn't be the first time Toby made a song based on "Doctor" and used it in his game lol.
Ah yes, I remember Penumbra Phantasm being mentioned in a few spaces. I think it's a very interesting pick, thanks for mentioning it!
where was the "at" "shadow's edge" shatter the twilight reverie" were?
@@QSBraWQtumblr
@@QSBraWQ Toby's old Tumblr iirc. He responded with that when asked about the song back in 2011. Do note that both this and his first tweet were posted at around the same time that Toby had his fever dream.
oh this is a really good argument huh
I'm glad this channel exists, makes me feel less crazy when I make certain connections and interpretations regarding undertale and deltarune that seem logical to me but I never see them talked about anywhere else
Theory: The song Onion hears comes from Dess, who is trapped in The Depths. Before disappearing, she used to play or sing the tune near Onion's home. Maybe, with her guitar?
The fact that I’ve never heard anything about the old song by the sea makes this all the more intriguing. Now I wonder if we’ll get anymore mentions to it in future chapters.
I also feel nostalgic towards It’s Raining Somewhere Else, mainly because of its tune, and the fact that I heard it in videos LONG before I ever heard about Undertale.
Great video, I hope you have a good day/night. 💜
that's the power of minor 7 chords lol
UT/DR do such a good job at evoking a sense of mystery and intrigue with the more obscure little questions like this. People (understandably) focus on a lot of the major plot/world mechanic mysteries currently in Deltarune, but for me its this type of small possibly never to be answered stuff that really gets me. Toby has done a really good job at stoking that kind of stuff in Undertale and he really has cranked it up to 11 with Deltarune. Once the game is fully out and (a decent chunk) of the major mysteries are more clear/solved, it'll probably be stuff like this that'll keep that feeling going. A kind of wistful lost memory (with some slight ominous undertones?). And what do you know, that seems a bit like how they describe the song of the sea! Or it's a homestuck reference. It's always a homestuck reference.
Only after seeing what characters are prominent in Deltarune, I have to wonder if "starts with G" was always setting up a fake-out where we think we'll find Gaster but the person of importance was really Gerson
Ohhh ? That's interesting!! To be honest I doubt it since Gaster is associated with phonecalls a lot in Deltarune (Spamton or the garbage noises coming from your phone in the dark world) but it would be so cool...
imagine if somebody played the old song from the sea and it was just a much more long and detailed version of gaster's theme
Girl I love how the vid got suddenly derailed by "it's raining somewhere else", this is my first time watching your channel and I can already see that you love it lol
I don't necessarily agree that IRSE is going to show up in Deltarune, but I think it's interesting to note that the track "sans.", which shares IRSE's leitmotif, is the only Undertale track that has so far appeared unaltered in not only Deltarune proper but on the soundtrack, as well. That would make it possible IRSE to show up without being divorced from its original musical context.
You have no idea how happy I was to see the title of this video. The topic of the old song coming from the sea is something I always found very very interesting. One thing I wanted to note is I found something while re-reading the dialogue for onion in deltarune that might support your theory that it's raining somewhere else is the old song. One of onions lines is "It's not a "new" song" when talking about the song coming from the sea. Perhaps the fact that onion states it's not a new song could serve as a hint to the song being something people have already heard before? Maybe this song is something people who have played undertale will be already familiar with, thus not making it a "new" song. After all what is one song from undertale that is just straight up reused in deltarune without any changes to it? sans.
It does seem pretty plausible to me that the river person's angel line is just about Asriel/Chara, so I'm not sure we can infer much from it. Undertale's plot does involve the coming of a being who once saw the surface and ends up emptying the Underground. It's also not clear to me in Deltarune whether the angel is coming or if it's already here. (Edit: Though I guess, even if the angel has been around since the start of Deltarune, Deltarune wasn't released yet when Undertale was released...)
But things certainly can end up having double meanings, so it does seem worth noting at least.
22:00 Yeah. I've talked about it a few times before to friends and people on forums how weirdly important Waterfall is in Undertale. I've been saying it for no exaggeration, YEARS. I'm really glad that someone with a lot of views is pointing it out too. Not to mention that all the tablets explaining Undertale's history are in Waterfall, which basically tells you outright "Hey guys, THIS is the big lore importance area!". It has the echo flowers, the dance shoes, the hidden item Legendary Artifact that Toby steals from us, the music box, don't even get me *STARTED* ON THAT _MUSIC BOX,_ the voice that tells us about the creepy face behind us, napsta-and-hapsta'blook's homes, Gerson's shop, the flashbacks of *_CHARA'S_* memories, and SO. FRIKKEN. MUCH. MORE! It is definitely the "Lore Hot Spot" area of the entire game in my opinion. It definitely holds mysteries we the fandom haven't figured out yet. I am sure of that. Not only that, but the entire area has song after song that feels nostalgic and calming. Like this is a familiar place...
😅 Sorry I'm rambling again...
TL;DR I fully agree with you and then some about the huge importance of Waterfall.
this is part of the reason why waterfall is probably my favourite area in all of undertale. the way it sucked me into the story was crazy. reading those ancient glyphs one by one while the music was playing in the background and all that... the atmosphere was set perfectly in waterfall, and from there on, i was 100% invested in undertale.
The first 10 second were like:
WAS THAT A TALLY HALL REFERENCE!!?!?!?!?? ‼️‼️🔥🗣️👔🟥🟨🟩🟦⬜🔲🔳🏝🌈
YEAH THAT THREW ME FOR A LOOP
Great Video! Its nice to sea someone talk about this subject. It would be cool to hear your opinion about the shadow crystals as I feel that is also under discussed.
I'm quite interested in the Shadow Crystals, but I would need to think about a way to talk about them without overlapping too much with Jaru. Thanks for watching!
Don’t think I didn’t notice that pun you made…
I stumbled onto this, and I adore it! Great video.
It's the obscure tie in make Toby's worlds so alive.
"It's Raining Somewhere Else" is a favourite of mine... But I don't think it's the Old Sea Song. (I always thought it was about the Goner Kid.)
I do agree that Shyren and Shyra know the song-- but how does Frisk know it? They shouldn't, but they do. So Chara must have.
Also, the ice palace that has been repeatedly forshadowed is implied to be underwater.
In Undertale, we fell down over and over (falling down is the monster equivalent to death) while in Deltarune the imagery has been repeatly drowning... I don't know what it means yet.
Now for something I think you will very much enjoy, as a fellow "It's Raining Somewhere Else" connoisseur- There is an old 1970 song by the band "The Guess Who" that is eerily similar. It's called Sour Suite. I swear you could melody these songs into each other seamlessly.
Have a listen and read the lyrics. I want your two cents.
Vivat you should narrate an audiobook your voice is so perfect
WOOOO YEAA BABYYY
the repercussions the woody theory video has had on the fandom tho 😭😭😭
Some really interesting ideas in this video, plus I really appreciate your discussion of Deltarune's themes of escapism, nostalgia and innocence, I feel like that kind of thematic analysis is often missing from theorycrafting. Subscribed :)
I have literally never pieced this together, what an amazing web of details you have uncovered.
YOO, spampton sweepstakes.... that blue chair with water dripping sfx. and turning into a void when you hover over it..
another water darkness connection
Oh I am SO HAPPY to see a video on this. The first video I've seen from you and has earned an instant sub, thank you ❤
Yay! I get so happy when you post!
Great video, man. It's the first time TH-cam reccomended your channel and I like it.
About the song, I don't think it will be literally IRSE tbh. Instead I believe the real OSBTS will have some references to it (maybe the instrumental or a leitmotif), like the Dummy part of Big Shot. On general, Toby seems to avoid to use the same song twice, with only a few exceptions.
He, however, sometimes uses extended versions of musics already played (like NYE HE HE and Bonetrousle), which makes Don't Forget and Find Her more probable in my opinion.
nice musical miracle reference
This idea just came to me, the "man from the other world" could also be the everyman, I might be reaching though.
I love this video so much, and I love the connections between the ocean, hometown, and the darkworlds that you make. It paints a picture of grandure, specificity, and personal emotion that connects very heavily with me; and having it being tied together by a nostalgic, ominous song really touches me. I'm not sure what the identity of the song might be, and we might never know. I don't necessarily think that it's raining somewhere else is the song, but I definitely wouldn't be mad if it was. This was a fantastic video, I loved the pacing, vibes, humor; everything just came together really well. I hope you have a great break, relax and focus on yourself. I will always be looking forward to hearing what else you are cooking
Thanks so much, I really appreciate it!!!
23:27 I'd also like to mention any water theme named Waterfall songs, and the song that plays when you fight the amalgamation with Snowdrake's mom fused into it. Also perhaps the ominous song that plays as the default for all the genocide encounters. After all, what song is better tied to the themes of darkness than that one? Even if it may be a little out of left field.
return of the queen!!!
i don't have a super deep comment lol I just wanted to say it's soooooo juicy too see someone talking about Deltarune in a way that really strongly resonates with my own takes on the game and its themes. This is going to sound a little like a non sequiter but I did want to ask if you had ever read the When They Cry series, particularly Umineko? Pretty much everything to do w/the way I engage with fiction is founded on the way Umineko influenced my views as a formative work and I was just curious as if that was the same for you or you were just coming to similar conclusions from a different direction.
I haven’t actually read Umineko/WTC but I’ve heard many good things about it. I should really check it out! I’m glad you’re enjoying the videos!
@@Vivat_Veritas In that case, I definitely recommend it! I find that a lot of folks who really vibe with UTDR tend to also really enjoy Umineko & vice versa so I think you would dig it! My only rec up front would be to double check a CW list before going in just because it is ultimately a horror game and shit DOES get grim (tho imo not unnecessarily or without purpose & associated catharsis) but I hope it clicks for you!
Something I've been considering more recently is what the importance of the name "Gaster" is, and more specifically how it relates to the way he speaks. I mean, we are already pretty sure the "W. D." part stands for "Wingdings", representing his speaking font like Sans and Papyrus' names, but what about the "Gaster" part? This may be a bit of a stretch, but write "GASTER" (yes, all caps, just the same way he speaks in Undertale) in the Wingdings 1 font and you'll see a reference to water, where the old song plays from, snow, the trademark of Noelle, and therefore the Angel, a pointing hand, which I take as a reference to the pose Kris makes when performing ACT commands, which Ralsei himself implies is a "unique talent to Kris", and therefore is more about OUR influence than Kris', and the sun, representing the light and lightners.
Aside from the first two letters, which show hands with 1 and 2 fingers up respectively, everything is a direct summary the key components of the prophecy of Deltarune.
And yes, this may just be a coincidence, but consider the fact that if Gaster didn't write all of his text in all-caps, or Toby decided to pick ANY other name than "Gaster", say that contained a M, N, L, J, K, O, P, Q, X, Y, Z, B, or a couple others, the name would not makr any sense in connection with the prophecy at all. If you think that connecting the pointing hand to Kris and the player is a stretch, imagine if his name had a random bomb, waving flag, or smiley face in it. Point is, I think it's reasonable to assume Toby knows what he's doing anf has at least SOME reason for the name choice. Whether this is the reason or not, we SHOULD be looking into it more I feel.
Man this person has some good taste. The evo ref in the ralsei video and now the miracle musical ref at the start of this one?
Another wonderful Vivat Veritas video!
I really love this channel. Amidst the (quite frankly) batshit insane theorycrafting channels, it's nice to have someone like you who dials things down & focuses on the more niche & underappreciated parts of these two games I love. So thank you vv much!!
Thank you so much! Very kind of you.
But isn't "It's Raining Somewhere Else" a sans motif song? About half the melody in the same melody as the one in the sans. song? It's nostlagic for us, but it'd be odd for something sans associated to be considered nostalgic to Hometown residents for a long time like Kris or Noelle, where Sans and his brother are new to the town and Kris presumably meets him the first time in Chapter 1? Though I don't have a better idea though...
Heck yeah, we're getting into the good stuff! I love this more obsure topic.
I think this is great! Keep making videos!
Onion also mentions wanting to start a band in Undertale, if you go back. I am sure it is just a throwaway thing, but it is interesting that music does come up in both games.
That’s actually a really good pull, I totally forgot!
I missed your Deltarune theories :)
Maybe when Toby had his fever dream, he got close to having a lucid dream.
Very good theory but it has a small flaw, the title of the song is "it's RAINING somewhere else" and if the song is coming from the sea, well... it can't be raining underwater, unless the connection is rain water ocean
The latter is what I was meaning, but I definitely could have been a bit clearer about it!
OLD song from the sea, something mysterious, shrouded in darkness, deep beneath the water? How familiar…
Ralsei first appears in a cloak that makes him look like River Person. If we're looking for a Deltarune equivalent for River Person, it's likely Ralsei.
Hi, I really liked the video! It's really one of the better Deltarune Theory/Analysis videos out there, and this is also one of my favorite mysteries in Deltarune. Keep up the good work!
By the way, just wanted to let you know that at about 6:00 minutes into the video, it's a bit hard to hear you over the music. (I guess Waterfall is an unexpectedly loud track.)
Thanks so much! And yeah, I do have a bit of difficulty balancing the Waterfall track. I really just shouldn’t use it anymore since it happens every time!
Water and music make me think about The Tempest, I wonder what it would look like to parallel the play to Deltarune. Perhaps Gaster is Prospero, Dess as Ariel?
I really like "It's raining somewhere else", too!
Great video as always! 👍
Well I don't know why the river person would mention the song such an ominous way (outside of them being an inherently ominous person in general). I don't think we really need to look into why Onion-son is so ominous about it. In chapter 1 Onion-son ends the conversation with him by telling Kris that he'll tell them a secret he "only tells friends" tomorrow in an incredibly ominous way, and in chapter 2, that secret is revealed to be him wanting to start a band. Given this, it seems like ending the conversation in the most ominous and mysterious way possible, only to be revealed to be mundane the next chapter seems like it's going to be a running gag with Onion-son, it might legitimately not be that deep. But what are the unsolved mystery test box of the river person is still oddly similar to the events mentioned by Onion-son, so who knows.
P.S. these speech to text function on my phone keeps autocorrecting "son" to "song". Ooooio, spOoky./j
riverperson kinda looks like ralsey with the robe at start of chapter 1
That's pretty cool, but have you ever heard of Woody theory
I think it's from the dark world... the ocean can be so big and vast that when you go deep enough there are places without light or even oxygen for that matter
(unrelated) i can hardly explain but the riverperson really has the same vibe of the snail shamans from hollow knight
Awesome video 👍
7:20
Riverperson is clearly Ralsei, just look how he first appeared
the only other character of significance that doesn't appear in deltarune at all is _i think_ muffet?
And So Sorry! But both of those were fan creations I believe so it makes sense tha tthey wouldn't be included again.
My first thought on hearing about a song from the sea was like a siren's song drawing you in and dragging you down
23:35 the song is called "It's Raining Somewhere Else" ??? I heard a youtuber call it that and I assumed they had the title wrong. I thought it was just "It's Raining Somewhere" (entirely because of Undertale the Musical)
It’s Raining Somewhere Else is the actual title in the ost
I do have a see some connection of ocean and water with deltarune. If you look at some of the unused song files, there a song file that sound like waves from a beach. Also ocean has been associated with the subconscious and dreams.
very chill vid, i liked the meditative aspect until the raining somewhere else bit lol i promise you have unironically ruined any chance of me taking any theory around that song seriously lmao
I do my best.
Great video 🎉
dream sweet in sea major
Suspicious Waves
Oh silly, The River Person is Ralsei wearing his hood ;)
Ralsei IS mysterious, like River Person.
I wouldn't even be mad. I expect Deltarune to be self-contained, but can you imagine the absolute mind screw if there ends up being some Easter egg or hidden route where you actually have to go back to Undertale and do certain things?
Why not "Undertale"? It's played on guitar, which makes it linked to Dess; it uses the Asriel's theme leitmotiv, which has a heavy nostalgic impact; and the music that plays during Sans judgement in UT, conveniently named "The Choice", is a slowed down version of it, which connects "Undertale" to Deltarune's thematics. That's also, according to him, the song that Toby worked on the most during UT dev, changing it a lot for it to be perfect. The only argument I found against my hypothesis is the absence of connection with water/ocean. Do some of you guys have any other evidence to add, wether in favor or against my train of thoughts? I'd be interested to see it.
yeah! anything to hear it in-game again :)
Ooooh, interesting.
The old song from the sea might be coming from the underground.. maybe referring to waterfall? that still exists in the deltarune universe?
Somewhat irrelevant to the topic at hand, and maybe you covered this in your It’s Raining Somewhere Else video, but given the common theory that UT sans is actually from deltarune, maybe the “Somewhere Else” is deltarune and we’ll get a track called “It’s Raining” in a future chapter
PENUMBRA PHANTASM !! It is Penumbra Phantasm
kingdom hearts🤝deltarune
Darkness=Ocean=Sleep=Death
I’m sorry, Woody Theory is all powerful
Lore of The Mystery of Deltarune's Old Song from the Sea momentum 100
Can’t be a deltarune theory without connecting Dess and Gaster
I mean, come on, their both trapped within the code.
@@1th_to_comment. Gaster is not trapped in code. That’s made up by the fandom. Undertale tells us he was “shattered across time and space.” Dess being trapped in code is possible, but it is still a big leap from the small amount of confirmed evidence we have on her
Thanks.
@4:53-.-I have never thought that this line referred to Gaster, and always thought this connection was a stretch. Entry 17 does uses all caps, and the hands that are all on the capital letters, which include the two most common letters in english, making them appear quite frequently, and technically "hands" is the most common motif in the font, I don't think any of this, even combined, necessarily makes hands the most notable thing about the font. Well hands are the most common motif, there are still only six hand characters (haha number associated with Gaster haha), it's only the most common because the symbols in the font are all over the place. And let's be honest, if this line of dialogue wasn't in the game, would anyone be associating the font with hands that strongly? Will there be any reason to associate Gaster with hands? I just think this is an incredibly tenuous connection.
Like think of it from the perspective of intentionally trying to light a piece of dialogue that references Gaster, specifically through referencing the font he uses. Is "speaking in hands" really the phrasing you would go with? Is it even a top 10 contender? I wouldn't think so. I would go with something more like "the man who writes in decipherably", or "the man who speaks like a dingbat" (referencing WingDings category as a dingbat font). I don't know what would compel Toby to use this wording. And please don't mention how it would make it "too obvious", as if most of the things that connect to gangster aren't that obvious.
who else would that line be referring to?
@@jargalo0098-.-I don't know, but that don't mean it's Gaster. My personal speculation is the guy who runs the counter for the Mettaton hotel.
@@michaelkindt3288 why would the riverperson have a line referring to that random character? They don't refer to anything else like that
@@jargalo0098-.-I just imagined a scenario for the river person checked into the hotel, left the room, and then realized they would have to pay for it again in order to get their stuff back. And from that day four, a warning to not check into the Mettaton hotel was put into the shuffle of random things they say.
Maybe that's a bit much, but I still think it's more likely then Gaster, because at least that NPC has a giant hand for a head.
@@michaelkindt3288 ooooookay...
good video
I LOV DRLTARUNE THEORIES
Tra la la
Nice video
Tra la la
DecEnder
:)