As a service warranty and commissioning engineer for both Rayburn and Stanley cookers and stoves I think I’m experienced enough to state that a chimney liner is essential to the safe running of a solid fuel stove. A liner keeps the flue gases hot and therefore moisture in it from condensing in the chimney this is especially important when burning wood or as in Ireland turf. If installing in an old chimney that may already be full of tar from this kind of fuel then a liner avoids the big problem of a chimney fires and in the case of wood or turf tar deposits along with water that had condensed in the chimney running down. I’ve been to many houses in Ireland where tar was running out of the soot box.
Hello I've put one down if the mid feather fulls in you have a big problem it,s worth and peace of mind nothing can leak if you put fire jointing around😊
I totally agree with your comments. I understand the condensation can react with POC’s and create sulphuric acid which won’t be great for the chimney structure.
@@TheAsa1972 flues from wood burners etc would need to be twin wall, a flue liner isn’t. Two reasons twin wall is essential. First, for safety, you are much less likely to burn yourself in touching twin wall and second, twin wall is less likely to cause a fire as it passes through ceilings etc. hope this helps 👍
One of the most refreshing faces on social media, love this bloke, says it how it is and is honest with it! Thanks mate, love this channel and your content! 🍻
Really enjoyed watching this. I think anyone looking at having a stove fitted has lots of questions about the liner but not many options for getting answers so thank you.
As a member of the Scottish Fire And Rescue Service I've been to many fires involving stoves without liners or incorrect installation I would highly recommend using liners.. the extra heat generated by stove will ignite any wood in the area of the flue
10:52 I wonder? I’ve always been informed that the liner is legal or planning requirement in Scotland is that not the case? Just to be clear I don’t care as I would always use liners in renovations just wondering
Superb. Perfectly articulated education. I never high pressure sell. I give them a proper education and the time they deserve. I allow them to make a well educated decision of fitting a liner. And I only use premium liners that withstand the acids. I always insulate for optimal performance. I'd love to collaborate with you on an educational video in the future. I am a second generation specialist and I feel we have effective communication. This is because our family took the time to educate us well. To serve others well. Not all sweeps are blessed with a loving father to answer all our stupid questions. Now we must extend our knowledge to others so everyone will be safe and warm as they study in front of the flame.
Nice explanation, I was unaware of the tar leakage or the acid problem (caused by sulphur in the coal making sulphuric acid). I believe that a standard vitreous clay liner will be unaffected by the problems above but but due to the large mass the cooling effect will cause condensation and tar/creosote formation. I have always installed liners with vermiculite loose fill to enable fast flue temperature rise and better air flow but was always concerned that I was losing some heating effect and heat recovery from the chimney breast and surrounding masonry that is very useful in providing background heat to upstairs areas.
Yea that’s true. The issue clay liners have is that they crack in the event of a chimney fire. The loss of the chimney thermal mass is a reality when insulating liners, but it has its upsides too.
Yup shoving things down people's throats does make them suspicious these days. Which is probably a good thing considering the type of people who seek power. So thanks for explaining this with the respect that adults deserve.
I tried without a liner and after two weeks I started to get an acrid smell in my loft conversion room where the existing 9” brick flue went through. With the smell came the dampness too. It doesn’t matter how dry your fuel is, there will always be moisture in the air that contributes to the oxidation process. 9” brick flues were designed for open fires that have the opposite efficiency throughput and output. Many people get away with this because they have a unused loft space and don’t notice what is happening. The condensation process still occurs but is less noticeable because of the increased ventilation in the loft space.
Scandinavian cast Iron wood burners have a 370 year history at the very least. A recent study in Norway, showed that burners designed over 150 years ago burn as efficiently as many modern clean burn designs and would achieve clean burn status. Many house holders don't know enough about how to use their wood burner correctly. I noticed that your fire is not making much smoke at all and that is the real aim; burn all the fuel and there won't be much trouble with the chimney. I don't have a liner in my chimney and I have thought of re-lining in the way you described for concrete, but with clay (which has been done here in Norway for generations). Interesting post, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
A slurry is made of the correct kind of clay, and poured into the chimney in the manner described in this film. Portland cement cracks, while the correct clay doesn't. It is considered a highly skilled craft, not suitable for hobbyists. I am a professional building restorer so I have heard about the technique on courses in traditional bricklaying with clay. I am not a bricklayer. @@firstname-qq3xp
A slurry is made of the correct kind of clay, and poured into the chimney in the manner described in this film. Portland cement cracks, while the correct clay doesn't. It is considered a highly skilled craft, not suitable for hobbyists. I am a professional building restorer so I have heard about the technique on courses in traditional bricklaying with clay. I am not a bricklayer. @firstname-qq3xp
Great video. I certainly wouldn't want that liner shoving down MY throat! Back in the 90s when we got our first Clearview, we invested in an insulated concrete liner from Chimneycrete; the flue has three holes knocked in, one just above the lintel, one in the first floor and one in the loft space, and then a deflated sausage fed down and fixed to the register plate at the base of the flue, and inflated so it is pretty hard, Then, insulated concrete is gently pumped in through the bottom hole, and the mix carefully placed all the way around the sausage. This hole is then bricked up and the pump hose taken upstairs and the section between the bottom hole and middle one filled, making sure the sausage is kept central and the concrete fills all the spalling brickwork in the old flue. Same again from the loft space and then it's filled right up to the top of the chimney. The next day, the sausage is deflated and this leaves a smooth round flue, with a 100 year guarantee, which gives SO MUCH draw. When we moved in 2001 we took the Vision 500 with us, and bought a Pioneer 400 for the front room - and we got BOTH chimneys lined with Chimneycrete. Fabulous company, top notch product, we've had the stoves heating the house for over 20 years with no issues whatsoever. Recommended.
Sounds like another great solution. I’ve never heard of a 100 Year guarantee though, most companies won’t last long enough to honour the guarantee? Sounds like a tough, good system though.
@@TheTortoise I *think* it had a 100-year guarantee. It's a long time ago that I had them put in!! I guess they were saying they had the utmost confidence that the material would last for longer than we will!!
It's a no brainer. YES. Essential unless you like risking burning chimneys/houses. I own and installed my wood log burner where I live in rural France. Cheers for the video, enjoyable.
Picked up loads of info from watching this video. Great content and presentation. Your stove looks amazing and actually made me feel all warm. So, as a tight Yorkshireman instead of using my open fire I’ll just watch your video again and feel nice and cosy for a cost of nowt.
standard Coal Fires never had Liners , they were introduced to allow gases from Gas Fires /Back Boilers to vent quicker using the cross wind to suck any gases into the atmosphere
It depends what you mean by standard coal fires. Anything open (eg an open fire) would never normally have a liner (particularly not a metal flue). It may be worth watching the video, because there are very good reasons for when and when not to have a liner, but I believe you’re mistaken on the purpose of a liner. Closed appliances have fairly slow moving flue gases and a cross wind will only assist draw in certain situations (in other cases it can make draw far worse), it can also only suck out as fast as air is going into the appliance, so with closed appliances this will have hugely varied results.
my house was built in 1952 and a boiler was also set up in the basement to burn coal but the owners back then quickly realized that the chimney got clogged too often with tar, and so in 1953 a pumice liner was put in the chimney, the brand was isokern and in fact the new smaller pumice liner that got installed here in the mid 2000s to replace the old big liner is also from isokern!! the old liner worked fine but since the big old boiler was scrapped there was no need for a big chimney liner anymore as the new liner is much smaller at 160mm instead of 250mm as the old one most likely was
I don't have a chimney liner, I have a a flue that goes into a plate (around 1.2m in length) and this goes straight into the chimney - I have an access hatch in the chimney to clean it every 6 months or so; most people in bishop aukland are the same. Saved me quite a lot on install costs (800 quid each stove!)
Hi. We are thinking for next year of having a wood burner installed in our fireplace, and this video has given us food for thought! My main concern is looking at your fire set and ours would be actually in the fire place would not all the heat go up the chimney rather than warming the actual room it’s in? We can see with your setup you have a flue pipe in your room that would obviously get hot and give off quite a bit of heat! Whereas ours the heat would maybe go straight up the chimney! Great video and we did enjoy the whys and wherefores ! Thanks for sharing! 👍👍
Modern stoves are superb at driving heat forward. Heat off the flue is fairly pathetic compared to the stove, but don’t forget that heat within the fireplace is not lost. That will build up thermal mass and will act as a heat sync warming more of the house. Definitely no problem in a fireplace! 👍
Another thing I'm curious about is if these wood burners have air fed to them from outside? I know of at least one house that was specifically built with a flue that ran from outside to under the fire, with a damper of some kind. Having lived with open Coal fires for many years in the past, the horrendous draught that they cause wastes much of the heat they generate. We used to see the carpet rippling from the blast of air coming from under the door from the hall. It seems to me this ought to be addressed in every installation. After all, the air has to come from somewhere, and that shouldn't be through leaks into the house from poorly fitting doors and windows.
Most houses do simply leak a bit, so the rule is that no extra air is required up to 5kw. Nowadays people are often fitting stoves with “direct air” meaning that the pipe of incoming air is directly attached to the stove, therefore causing no draughts.
I put in a 6" double wall stainless liner and filled the remaining stone chimney voids with vermiculite - the results are most visibly seen when cleaning the chimney after a winter - the only condensed smoke tar is at the very top of the chimney at the pot and hat... this is in north of scotland where you can see orkney off shore. The fierce wind condenses the smoke on the wind/bird guard at chimney top - that's my more serious problem - the tar at the very top gets frozen by the icy winds and it clogs the wind guard - even blocked the entire chimney one january... never regret putting in the liner though.
I did exactly the same with the liner and vermiculite, when I sweep it the soot comes out dry and fluffy which is exactly how it should be . As you say the very top gets clogged but no issue cleaning it out
I'm considering getting a chimney liner because of the creosote that often drips down after (i assume) condensation forms from the upper parts of the chimney being so cold. Really, i want to knock the entire chimney down as it pulls so much cold into the house. It really needs around 3M of uninsulated flue pipe to help heat the house and then insulated flue pipe for the loft and outdoor section. I've had all sorts of blockages and burned all sorts of wood but i try to run a brush through it 2 or 3 times a year. Concrete block chimney from 2nd floor floor with a flue pipe down to the fire on the ground floor. My fast clean is to go to the roof and drop a rope and carabineer down till it pops out in the stove. I attach the brush close the door and all air vents into the stove then go back to the roof and pull it through. I do this 2 or 3 times and sweep all the crap out while wearing a mask and running a vacuum from outside with a long pipe to around the stove (trying to catch any fine dust that might be in the air from the process). Really. This video should be "why you want to 100% remove your chimney and replace it with stove pipe"
I have a very very old granite house, when I removed the 7kw clearview from the lounge to renovate it for my workshop I fitted a Heta 5kw and lined the chimney then filled around the liner with vermiculite. A big difference in performance and efficiency. I only burn seasoned wood as I can't be bothered with coal these days. My old neighbour has an open fire and coal on that is great.
just buying a hose with our fist experience of a wood burner, what are the things to look out for? what is the fan for on the top of the wood burner and i see there is some kind of temperature gauge on the exhaust pipe ? the wood burner in question does have a liner how long do they last and what are the signs that it is ready for changing, thanks Roland.
The fan and thermometer safe available on our website: thetortoise.net/ The fan is about stirring the heat around your room. Stoves are mainly radiant heaters so getting air movement does improve their effectiveness. The thermometer is particularly useful to new users as this teaches you how hot to keep your stove when running it. This is important because like a car the temperature is key to things operating efficiently. With regard to maintenance, in the main this will be reviewed by your chimney sweep. These guys are looking closely at everything from the flue, to the spares and repairs needed to your stove, so they are the best people to ask this on their visit to you. Generally it is a good idea to have your stove swept before the cold months and then after Christmas, from there he can advise you how clean things are and whether you should continue sweeping regularly or switch to just 1 a year.
Depending on what you burn out of necessity, you will still get chimney fires inside the liner, at the chimney pot end, due to build up of tar/soot. My neighbour over the back fence (Fireman) rang me one night to let me know my chimney was on fire, but not to panic. Just let your fire die down and get the chimney swept, the tar will burn itself out.
Not sure what’s happening here, most comments miss the major issue. Open fires, inherently have low flue temperatures- Stoves don’t. After a few hours running a stove can happily heat bricks to whatever temperature the stoves’ running at. This over time destroys the withey’s (which are only brick width) causing flue gases to get into the other flues in the stack, but the worse case scenario is where the chippy back in the day trimmed his joists into the 1st floor (and above) stack and generally couldn’t give a stuff how far they went in. An uncontrolled burn, stove door left open for example, turns the stack into a giant pocket warmer. The joint ends heat up, combust and there’s your bedroom or roof fire. The reason the roof goes regularly is that the top third of the chimney degrades fastest due to moisture and corrosion from when it was on open flue. Hot gases will also leak out of degraded mortar joints, again heating up anything they come into contact with. Get a liner, then you won’t be arguing with the loss adjuster about what TH-cam said.
A two layer liner keeps the flue gases hot and stops the tars condensing on the cold chimney wall. I have personally had to clear the tar from a single layer cast iron pipe leaving a one inch hole for the smoke.
Excellent video, clear chronology and explanation. Just discovered this channel as I'm changing my burner, really good, passed it onto friends n family👍🏾
Interesting video. But you never said anything about the life of a liner. I fitted double SS904 as it was the best but how long do they last ? We need to put this in burn hours so peeps can change there liner when it's due.
Unfortunately it’s like asking how long your tyres last. 1 person will kill it in 5 minutes another could have it for decades. As I grew up we had 1 heat source (a wood burning central heating boiler stove), and it ran 24/7 for 7 months of the year and sporadically for the other 5 months. It was used like this for 30 years and then got pulled out, but only because my father was letting that property so brought it up to modern regs. 904 is not necessarily the best at all, the grade sadly has no bearing on life expectancy, it is all about use. My 316 liner lasted 30 years and was still going, but a 904 liner will suffer mortal in 1 hour at 1100°C, so it’s far from a simple answer. So generally liners last a very long time, but let’s say the stove ran for an average of 2 hours a day (every day), in a dry chimney, with dry fuel and a perfectly run stove. It seems plausible that the liner would last the life of a stove which is potentially decades and decades, in fact in those situations it would almost certainly outlive us all.
Brilliant, I'm convinced, a liner is essential. Been looking at getting a multi fuel stove installed and looking to do it on a limited budget, one thing I won't cut back on will be the liner!
I fitted my own Multifuel stove 10 years ago and didn't fit a SS liner. Because my chimney was sound and already lined with clay terracotta liners built in the late seventies. Made to BS EN 1457-1:2012 - Classification A1N2 Clay flue liners have a proven durability, with an inherent resistance to corrosive acid attack and will last hundreds of years. Unlike ultra expensive stainless steel liners which only last a few decades. The reason SS liners are fitted is because most home owners don't know the durability and integrity of the flue/chimney they own and the SS liner is a belt and braces approach for the installer for insurance purposes. Of course the installer can test the integrity. But he doesn't trust those tests. And even if he did, the regulations won't allow it. A few years back a home owner sold their house and the new owner stripped the wall paper on the chimney breast exposing a crack. And combustion gases entered the room. I can't remember if anyone was affected. The regulators use these cases to tighten the regulations. As the SS liner method is part of the regulations now, the home owner pays the extra cost or just lives with their current open fire. If you employ a technician to test your current open fire flue and it passes all the tests . Fine and good. You can get a different installer/technician back the next day and tell him you want to fit a new stove. He will then inform you that your flue isn't fit for purpose and needs a SS liner. Without doing a single test. What he won't tell you is that the SS liner will eventually fail anyway. In Northern Ireland new builds have to comply with the fitment of SS liners. Anyone selling or installing stoves have to tow the SS liner line. A private individual like myself does not. Of course I will get accused of endangering my family and myself and making my home insurance void. Even though I don't have any insurance. But that is my choice and I still have the freedom to do just that.
Ive made a video on 316 vs 904 and the differences may surprise you. Generally 904 is not the better choice. With regard to clay liners, they will last a long time, but they won’t survive just 1 chimney fire, so for stoves they’re still not a great option.
I have a multi stove and chimney without a liner, but your advice sounds good to me so after the cold spell I will sweep and install a liner, thank you
That’s sounds great. Officially with an existing installation, installing a liner is considered a repair and therefore isn’t subject to building regs. As long as the stove was installed legally when it was first put in? That’s a bit of a forgotten rule, but it may make your installation simpler.
We fitted a woodburner in a coal fire grate which had an 8inch diameter terracota flue. We tried to save money by not fitting a liner but it was a false economy. The fire didn't draw well and we had huge problems with tarry condensate running down the flue and out the bottom of the fire making a pool of smelly water in the grate and staining everything. You wouldn't believe how much condensate there was. We now have a stainless steel liner fitted and its great. The fire burns well and there's no stinking water coming out.
I never really understood what the liner was meant to do, this has solved all that, what a refreshing change someone actually telling you the truth! Thanks!
Thanks, great video. And one that answers lots of questions I had. I basically have an inset stove where the setup of the stove and fireplace means it's not possible to use a liner. I've been toying with the idea of replacing the stove so I can have a liner and this video has swung it for me.
This is a great explanation mate, but what I hated was the huge differences in prices for a liner for a wood burner £300 in one quote and £850 in another just for the pipe. I could never get a proper explanation why one was so expensive. I looked at kits and they were no where near £850. We have a burner installed now but still do feel we were done over on the price.
I've seen a few different grades of liner, 316 and 904 stainless are most common. 316 usually has a 10-15 year life span and is just for seasoned wood, 904 is sold for multi fuel and lasts longer. 904 is usually much more expensive.
@@huwbishop6995 strangely there is no real reason why 904 would last longer, I’ve got a video coming soon about the different types. 904 deals with acid better, but if you’re burning dry wood and have a cowl, then there is no reason 316 can’t last 30 years.
@@TheTortoise I think this is why 904 is specifically applicable to coal, the acid content and sulfur would suggest it would be better suited (not guaranteed) I agree that there is no reason why it shouldn't last a long time. I'm motor trade and have experience of stainless exhausts lasting for decades. They are subject to more rapid heating and cooling, plus subject to acids, hydrocarbons and no end of other junk. 10-15 years was what was specified on my liner. I did the install myself, it's easier than you think and that was with remedial work on the chimney.
@@huwbishop6995 you’re correct about the acids, smokeless fuel is the one that needs 904 liner, horrible stuff really. Fair play on the install, as you say it’s generally pretty simple.
Great video, I've always been convinced they are a good idea, however I do still think there is an issue, mostly with sellers of stoves, I visited a stove shop, asked for a quote and showed a photo of the liner up our chimney (weirdly the chimney/fireplace had been sealed up, but there was a liner installed) he said it was a gas liner and would need replacing, bumping up the quote quite a bit. I've not been able to find any information about 'gas' liners so I suspect he was just trying it on (unsuccessfully). Happy to be educated if there is such a thing, however if he had said they can try and inspect it and reuse if possible I might have been more interested.
There are gas liners which are single skin and not allowed to be used with Woodburners (double skin is a requirement). The other issue in this modern litigious world is that unless you have certification for that liner install, the fitter cannot sign it off as they cannot know whether it complies. Silly I know, but as far as a stove shop is concerned they cannot risk it.
⚠️Oh heck I've put this liner job off for years. Best I get it sorted for our double sided Villager Burner which we heat the kitchen and dining room with . Good explanation. Wish our chimney sweep had explained it like you have 🤠
Hi, back in the 1980s when i was young man we bought an old farm house near the sea in Ireland - seemed a good idea at the time - i spent a lot of money rectifying the old house - we removed all the old plaster throughout the house & had it re - roofed - re - wired & re - plastered -all looked great - a year or so later we arrived & started painting, it was quite cold in the empty house , my nephew said he would warm up the house by lighting a fire in the main sitting room - this he did, it soon warmed up & was quite cosy - my wife came & told us that she could smell smoke in other parts of the house where we had no fires - then my children said that smoke was coming out of the power outlets in the bedroom - we contacted the builder - he suggested that the main chimney should be cut open & the chimney lined with clay pots - I suggested a stainless steel liner - he said that the way the old chimney was built he would not be able to fit a steel liner - he would need to remove all the face of the wall up & out through the roof , cut out the irregular rock to make space for the clay pots & rebuild the chimney stack - as we thought that the house was finishes it came as quite a shock & quite a cost - but my wife loved the house so we went ahead with work - we now have a nice house & no smoke - it would of been so much easier just to put a steel liner in. Ed.
We opened up a "chimney" that was lined with a square foot sq 2 foot high ceramic type brick. Heavy but very draught tight. We also put a 160mm rigid flue liner in to aid it's draw. Our wood burner, a herald 14 woodburning mode with the full back boiler. In the room we put in a 1mtr vertical flue and flue damper then a 90deg cast bend with inspection cover into the wall and a 50cm 90 to the vertical. Result very easy to clean from inside the property. It draws like a blacksmiths forge! Also it's very easy to clean
Sounds like it’s working. Sadly that install won’t pass building regs anymore, they banned the 90° bends on normal stoves, keeping it clean as you say is the key.
Hiya Just as well it's not in the UK . Saying that though the I can understand why it may be necessary. What a lot of non chimnied properties have I the stove exiting horizontally through a outside wall to a 90 T then up a vertical insulated stainless steel "chimney" expensive & looks bloody awful. Below the t is a section that catches soot and makes external rodding easy. Keep up the informative channel
@@a760541 thanks a lot. Yea we use metal flue systems when there is no chimney too. They obviously work a bit differently and don’t need lining, but as you say they can be tricky to keep discreet.
In 1999 I had my gas fire and back boiler taken out and replaced with a combi boiler, so this left me with a open fire place. I put a small secondhand burner in which was fine at the time but after a year or so I noticed that tar was seeping through the bedroom wall. I decided to upgrade my woodburner with a new Charnwood 6 and put a liner in too. The difference it made was really good, I found by burning the wood a little bit hotter the soot and tar issues virtually stopped. Being in the tree business wood was never an issue, always the best wood going of course. When I moved house in 2007 I put a Jotul f100 in with the liner of course and never had a issue with soot and tar at all.
Well look at how houses were constructed for hundreds of years and I have had all sorts of chimneys from 1700 or so. All buildings until post WWII were constructed from brick bonded with lime mortar which has the ability to flex slightly until intense heat causes it to shrink and allow penetration of smoke. A large chimney stack and the base has to be large to accommodate the mass of brick which can mount on top with other fire places. This mass becomes so cold it can take weeks of fires to warm it in a large house with only one fire in a stack of half a dozen flues. This can be reduced to a feasible value by inserting a flue liner and inserting an insulated jacket around it. This allowed the smoke to exhaust without deposition of tar because there was no thermal condensation. There is also the point that the liner life can be reduced by consuming coal which will rot the liner from the acids it contain. The liner needs to be swept annually to remove the ring of condensed tar which tends, still to build up on the chimney exit and to prove this a sweep will issue a certificate which insurance companies now require if there is a chimney fire claim. Is it a confidence trick? No it is basic engineering especially as old houses are no longer used in the way they once were.
The failures you are focusing on are on block/brick chimneys? As most modern chimneys are lined with clay pipe flue sections and instead runs down into the stove/fire, they are overlapping so that rain/tar doesn’t leak outside of this flue, so surely the leaking problem your highlighting is not an issue anymore? (If the flue clay pipes are not compromised that is).
The issue is that a stove will damage any flue. A metal liner is easy to replace, but clay pipes will crack and fail in basically one chimney fire, or through acid, over time the same as a brick or block chimney. It’s just a question of time. A metal flue is sensible not because it last longer, but because you can replace it
Even the stainless steel end cap on the soot trap corrodes (esp. the rivets which hold on the handle)! So I put a ceramic flower pot (which had no hole in the bottom) inside my flu soot trap. It fits exactly and prevents the acidic water from rotting the new end cap that I had to buy. Also it is much less messy to empty now. I recommend everyone do this.
I lived in Spain and they use liners but as the chimney goes up through the floor they put vents in and the heat would come out of the chimney without the smoke and allow the rest of the house to get heated.
That’s interesting! I can see how that could work, but only with the right sort of houses. Houses in the UK would generally not suit at all, but it’s a neat system in Spain!
Great content, appreciated. Can you explain what happens if a 'cowboy' home installer doesn't attach the liner to the top of the chimney pots but rather shoves it up.from the inside and as its the same diameter as the clay pots on the exit stack, leaves a gap for smoke and condensation to come back down. Am i correct in thinking that this could be a problem. This lad wants to do it his way. I suggested that the liner needs to go all the way to the exit point and be fastened securely.
This is a tricky one. Honestly in my own home it wouldn’t necessarily panic me at all. Obviously there are rules in place and this wouldn’t comply and therefore you couldn’t sign it off, so none of this is potentially legal. This would obviously lead anyone to say “you can’t do this”. However regs have only been in force for 19 years and prior to this it wouldn’t have concerned me in the slightest. Obviously in your case the proper answer is to remove the pot. Secure the liner with a top plate and clamp, fit a new pot on top and then best practice is often to vent the stack by drilling through it with the drill on a slight upward lean so that air exchange is possible, but water cannot run in. The flip side is if you’re getting this signed off by a building inspector, I’m sure you’d get away with doing your original plan, but then you’ve got to live with it. Building inspectors will be exempt from prosecution in these cases so if the installation did harm someone, the installer would remain legally responsible (I believe).
I have a house that was built in the mid 90’s. originally had a gas fire converted to an open fire we use in cold snaps so fairly often in winter. It’s swept professionally yearly. Looking to get an inset stove. The chimney is lined with clay pots. Would I still need a liner? Many thanks
It's an essential item for a stove, but expensive - chimney access will involve scaffolding/cherry picker as no one reputable will just do it off ladders
I ran my stove for 10 years straight up the chimney, no problem at all. But I find now that I'm a bit older, saftey is more important to me so I've fitted a liner. Makes sweeping easier too.
Thank you so much for your honest words! Now to find an honest person in the US who will install a stainless steel liner for me - one quote was close to $2,000 for a chimney that is not even very tall!!!
I need to learn more about how the industry operates in America. If you get the chance,let me know how you get on and whether they have differing advice.
Hi. Love all your helpful videos. I justed your opinion on our situation. We are fitting a peanut 8 but can only fit a 5" liner as our chimney is narrow. Our chimney is already clay lined, in good condition and had a successful smoke test. Do you think it would be ok in this instance to not use a steel liner? Thanks
I have an old brick chimney. It didn’t have a fire place. I think it was for an old furnace. I need a steel liner down the chimney to the living room for a stove??
I will add my experience. I contacted my local stove company and got a quote to supply and instal into the existing and modern 9inch flue. I did all the preparatory work creating the space. Every thing was perfect for the installation. The converter piece between stove flue and chimney just didn't fit. The installer overnight got another one made and that didn't,t fit. The option was to fit a liner which was done on a materials only cost. I am still a bit miffed that the stove firm and installer ,reputable, had not got a standard solution for a standard build. It does all work well but on still days when newly lit smoke inverts and doors and windows are opened to create a draught to get it going.
That’s interesting, this obviously seems a little different to the average job, but what may be worth knowing is that if you have a draw issue, it is very likely that without a liner it would be made much worse. Hope that’s a silver lining.
Rather annoyingly lots of modern stoves will spill smoke into the room, particularly when they’re cold. If you watch my reviews in the “controls” section I will often mention whether it spills during re-loading for this reason. Given there is no history of poor draw, I would guess this would be the issue. What stove have you got?
A good sign is always if it is drawing and working. Generally if it isn’t broken then you don’t need to fix it, but where you’re talking about masonry liners the best advice is fit a metal flue so you don’t break it.
A very interesting video, certainly helped me get a better understanding as to why the liner is needed with a wood burner as opposed to an open fire. looking to get a liner in place while I have scaffolding, do they have to be professionally fitted or can anyone with a bit of know how fit them in the UK?
You can fit stoves and flues yourself, but just like if you built a building, you would then need a building inspector to sign it off. You’ll often find it’s no more costly and a site easier to just get a fitter to do it. But totally up to you.
i live in a terrace house that had a chimney in every room/or fireplace and its a good 100 years old, i was thinking a liner is a rip off but you saying about the gap between the ceiling and floor, i agree how smoke can get throu
Yea it’s just a question of time. The tricky thing is no one knows how long, but open fires don’t generally tend to cause this issue. Stoves are the culprits really.
Firstly thank you for such an informative video your videos are easy to follow and answer most of the questions I have on various aspects of buying a stove. When we brought our current home it had an old oil burner stove in the fireplace which was not in working order and so removed. My question is would the liner that is in the chimney that was for the old Efel oil stove be ok for a use with a multi fuel stove or would it be safer to remove it and put a new liner in?
Sadly it will almost certainly need pulling out. Firstly there is probably a certification issue, and it may well not be appropriate to solid fuel. Does the current installation have any paperwork that details what was fitted and when?
I wanted to fit a liner when I fitted our stove, but I discovered that our flue is already built of insulated pumice-concrete blocks and is only ~6" x 12" - like two cylinders sat next to each other with the joining bits cut out (I don't know the name of this geometrical shape - maybe a rectangircle?) Since I've installed a pretty large stove, (~8 kW) I'm hoping (and this seems to be working in practice) that the volume is sufficiently small for the stove to be able to get the chimney to draw. I do have CO detectors on every floor where the chimney runs through though - including the loft space. I would have been happier with a liner!
Yes it does seam you had little choice, but the good news is your chimney sounds like a relatively modern construction, so I would hope and expect that things remain serviceable for a long time. Could be a bit of a muddle when the chimney does eventually fail, but as we know everything fails eventually. You and me aren’t gunna last forever either 😆
We had our stove fitted about nine years ago and we were told our flue was A1 and didnt need a liner, one year later and the gable wall in the loft is covered in tar/creosote, we fitted a liner and insulation ourselves and had not more problems
All I will say is that I never had a liner when I had a wood burner. It went straight from the back of the burner into the chimney (with a fibreglass packing around a fireproof material). We used it every day as soon as the summer ended with no problems whatsoever - I mean none: no blow backs, no condensation of the chimney in the loft, nothing. It pulled the fumes brilliantly. We only took it out this year as we got fed up sourcing logs. If you want to get a liner, fine.
Yea, absolutely it can definitely work. The issue is what a stove does over time to a chimney, but for sure a lot of people move house before the issue reveals itself.
@@TheTortoise I appreciate what you say, and all I can say is my experience. I'm a heating engineer, not a solid fuel engineer. I did inspect the flue before and after, and it was in for seven years with three cleans. I experienced no problems for having no liner. Our burner took the place of an open fire for decades before. I cannot see any difference the liner would make. I think if your flue didn't pull well, it would help, but that's about it. If I were doing it again, I wouldn't put a liner in.
Probably worth watching the video, because the affect it has is precisely what the video is about. Some people believe that a liner is to make things work better. It may do that (as you say) in some cases, but that isn’t it’s purpose. The problem a liner solved is a bit like the mouth guard in a boxer, or the bumpers on a car, at some point you will wish you had it. I talk about this in the video, but the issue with stoves is (unlike an open fire) the flue gases move slowly (watch the video and it’ll make sense, I’m really not trying to sell them, it makes no odds to me).
@@TheTortoise I did watch the video. I know from my own experience as a heating engineer that a warm flue pulls better and more quickly, so a metal flue would warm very quickly. In my old gasboard days, we used to have flues not pulling well until they were warm. But we had no issues with blowback or not drawing with ours. As I said, all I can do is tell you and others my experience...that not having a liner didn't cause any issues. I'm not saying people shouldn't have one, or that they are a waste of money. All I can go by is my own experience, and it's why I wouldn't have one again.
As I say though, the issue is not generally to do with draw, it’s all about how the flue gases slowly break the chimney down. It will have been happening to your last chimney, but it’s just a question of time. And who on earth knows how long???
They are usually dual layered and should last at least 10 years minimum but will depend on the quality you buy. Good ones should have a life span of at least 20 years.
Sadly it really is a “how long is a piece of string” question. Most people move house before that is ever a problem, but in my experience a S/S liner tends to last 10-30 years
My chimney guy wants to install one in my gas burning hot water heater and gas burning furnace line (chimney line) in Brooklyn NY 1901 Victorian house. $5000 I’m I being scammed? This guy in the video didn’t say anything other than wood burning stove line needs this liner? Help!
Would love to hear your take on the £300 fines they want to issue, I use less than 20% hard wood, so I understand educating the people who use wet wood. But I don't believe the government's stance on the emissions of the log burners. Cars, Planes factories produce way more..
I’ve found this latest news mad. There are no new rules at all regarding this, and most of the rules that do exist aren’t even relevant to most people anyway. In the main there are rules for the stove manufacturers, the installers and wood suppliers. The things we have to do as end users are incredibly minimal. If you’re in a smokeless zone you have to burn either smokeless fuel or have a DEFRA approved stove. These rules have existed for over a decade and are easy to comply with. If you were breaking that rule or burning wet wood in a smokeless zone and neighbours complained, then essentially someone might visit you and ask you to stop and potentially you could eventually get fined, but I have never encountered this happening. I have heard of one or 2, but never encountered it myself. What makes an even bigger mockery of these rules is you could burn your wet wood on a fire pit outside and the government has decided not to restrict that. (when Boris Johnson’s got married, they were using firepits in government grounds, in a smokeless zone 😆 as part of a party).
I’ve always fitted liners. I’ve a Jotul 602 and my neighbour has one also. He has a board at the back of his, I can boil water or make the supper, his doesn’t! Another difference is the modern stoves are far more efficient with the smoke getting recirculated. We also have a Jotul 105 and after ignition, we can’t even see smoke it’s so clean. A liner is a necessity alright 👍
Thermocreting is fine but very expensive compared to a flue liner. The flue liner will warm up quicker because it is metal as opposed to masonry . A chimney will not draw properly until it is warm .so as the man says you will get more smoke into the room when you first light your fire. Think back to the days when people use to stand in front of their open fires with newspaper till the fire got going. With a liner it is also easier to clean your chimney .the stove will also burn better and more efficiently. I work in a fireplace shop and the thought of installing a stove without a liner ,would be like doing half a job. If you are purchasing a stove from a shop and they cant tell you why you should fit a liner turn around and go somewhere else. They clearly dont know what they are doing. The amount of people in the UK who leave their stoves on and go to bed who never wake up in the morning is frightening . All because they didnt have a liner fitted. Dont risk your families lives get it done !!!.
I have a video on this very subject coming out in the New Year. It’s a big subject, so definitely worth watching the long form video, as there are many situations that it is needed. There are also the majority of situations where it either achieves little or nothing, and those other cases where it is actually a very bad idea.
Can't argue over the safety issue but woodstoves are remarkably good at burning wood these days with secondary burns for one, which reduces the amount of smoke going up the chimney anyway. In the good ole days people used to throw on wet coal, called slag, it would be the crumbles from the bottom of the coal pile and other none seasoned wood etc to add to the cocktail of disaster. It would take many decades to cause serious problems to the brick work nowadays. Having said that though, the flexi liner is so useful as it allows woodstoves to be installed pretty much anywhere and is easy to install the liner. The one bug bear for me is these stainless liners have ribs which attract particles of smoke and get trapped so over time the liner will clog up if the fire is not up to temperature most of the time. I just wish these liners had a smooth inside surface which would reduce the need to be swept anyway. The moist expensive thing if you are going to install a liner is the price it will cost for the scaffolding not so much the liner itself, as you say a few hundred quid. Most large houses today could be fitted with a liner for under £500 so considering the cost of the woodstove it makes good sense to use one. Very interesting video sir.
I didn't watch this video, but yes, a liner is always helpful. It may not be needed in all cases, but it solves a lot of draft problems and is much safer in many respects including creosote buildup.
've just had my yearly gas fire check and the engineer has cut of the gas fire (it's an artificial coals appearance fire,) so naked flames show when it, as she is saying the cemented plaster chimney has deteriorated as I had a fair bit of debris on the coals... Would this be hazardous and if so who would repair in the UK
I was quoted 1k for liner and install of it crazy 🤪 in the end I paid 150 ish for it and my mate fitted it for a fee he likes heights as a scaffolder the hetas crap is where the con is extaution in some cases
Why chimney liner with a clay liner there already. I have installed 100s stoves with and without liners back in 1970-80s. Dont the liners burn out where it touches the brick work or clay liner? We had springs to put around the liner but that was a a bit of a guess. Your thoughts please.
Metal liners in masonry liners is done for a few reasons: They don’t generally want a stove installed on a chimney more than 2” larger than the outlet of the stove. A metal liner is an easily replaceable part, so wearing that out or destroying it with a chimney fire is bad, but a heck of a lot better than damaging the almost irreplaceable masonry liner. Tar leaks into the fireplace are prevented Chimney fires are far less likely due to a small, slippery metal (metal heats up quickly) surface, as apposed to a larger, rough and cold masonry surface. Easier to sweep and maintain, as a 6” stove will have a 6” flue rather than potentially sweeping through a 6” stove with a metal pipe and then your brush opening up into a 9,10 perhaps 12” masonry liner. Potentially a better draw, making the stove easier to light and use. With regard to potential issues. The liners don’t tend to just burn out, but hot spots will age quicker. It’s also possible that old tar could have caused more problems in these older chimneys. Generally liners are a quick and simple solution which other than costs, only has genuine benefits.
This may be true, but on the other hand you’ve had 2 stoves over a few years, this level of experience is simply not enough to form an argument from. It’s like saying driving at 150mph on the road is safe because I’ve done it, and I just change my tyres once a year.
That chimney liner you show looks like its so thin that after a few years of use i could poke through it with a stick. i would definitly get a rigid liner with thicker walls so that it will last more than 10-15 years
Sectioned liners used to be used in the UK, but they’re not anymore. These are vastly easier to install, and lasting more than 15 years is very easily achieved. Like a car you could blow the engine on day one, but generally if cared for the liners can last decades.
Depends on the chimney my chimney is double walled so I have a cavity those issues don't apply, I don't know if that was a legal requirement houses built in the early forties. You should still have a vent at the base of the chimney tho! because you can get moisture building up from condensation what could lead to mould. bricks have to breathe that might be a issue using concrete liners don't like the idea.
Sadly those issues will still apply. I have worked with chimneys my entire life, so did my dad, his father, my uncle and all my brothers, so we’ve worked on thousands of chimneys. What happens in your case is the inner lining fails, and then tar over time finds its way through. You then (again over time) get all the same issues: Tar heating up and smoking Tar bleeding into the walls and destroying the internal walls Smoke bleeding from that void into other areas (even out of the fireplace itself). In fact a fitter friend of mine has just encountered this very issue. He had installed into a chimney like yours that the sweep had said had failed. A stove went in and a liner, but the added heat in the chimney has now caused the tar outside the masonry lining (so invisible to the sweep, when inspected) to melt and smoke. And the tar is now coming through a bedroom wall, spoiling the decorating and cause a horrible smell. Definitely not his fault, the chimney was swept etc, just an unfortunate occurrence. In this case he is needing to knock the breast down and re-build it as it is full of tar, and then insulate the liner within the “inner lining”.
Great video. QUESTION: I have 6 burners fitted in my Victorian country house and I had liners on all of them. You said that with a liner any tar dribbles down the liner and gets burned up. So do I still need to have them swept?
Very well put. Your very knowledgeable for a young man. Me and a mate put a liner down my chimney a few years ago, my question is how long should a liner last? Regards John
I’m just benefiting from my family’s experience. But generally a 316 grade liner will have a 10-15 year guarantee, but there is no reason why a liner can’t last 20-40 years if the right fuel is burnt at sensible temperatures. Also if you’re not near the sea! 😆 that sea air destroys nearly everything in its path including stainless steel! Even then it will last a while, but you’re less likely to get the maximum lifespan.
Definitely get 316 grade for wood burning. Unfortunately I don’t have any recommendations for retailers, the channels independence from that is quite important to me and the manufacturers of stoves and flues etc.
I never realised there was any debate on the essential requirement to control the updraft and temperature of the smoke from a multi fuel burner and therefore controlling the rate of burn. But I did believe and still do that the key point is the temperature of the smoke leaving the top of the chimney is critical. Single skin stainless liners are NOT the answer to all your prayers and many people I know who have spent as you’re saying a few hundred quid on a liner, have very quickly found their 6 inch liner reduced to 4 inch and causing huge smoke problems every time the fire door is opened. Combination of softwood fuel, cold chimney cavity and single skin liner causing huge creosote formation in chimneys. Not forgetting peoples obsession of ‘keeping the fire in all night’ arrrrrh does my head in. Cram the fire with loads of fuel and then shut off the air and go to bed. Why oh why? No wonder creosote is a huge issue. I consider twin wall chimney flues are more essential and should be made compulsory. Insulated sections that control smoke temperature and insure it rises without reaching creosote formation temperature is guaranteed as long as sensible fire burning management is kept to.
Insulating liner’s definitely has some advantages, but the lack of insulation is not actually a problem (at least not in the UK). The creosote issue is caused by moisture in the fuel. This also causes cooling of the fire, which exacerbates the issue. A single skin flue outside of a chimney in Canada, during winter, would not cause creosote on a modern stove with dry fuel. The issue you’re describing is caused almost entirely by damp fuel.
I don't understand this obsession that "softwood" is somehow a problem. My fitter/sweep has always said it's not the wood, it's how wet it is - do not try to burn wet fuel, he says, together with a similar explanation to yours. Considering he is also a retained fireman up here in Scotland, I am inclined to listen.
You’re correct. Dry fuel is the biggest factor in most of these things. I have another video about the best fuels: What is the best wood for burning? th-cam.com/video/bxeQEFAHMkY/w-d-xo.html
I've just had a gas fire removed from an old cottage. There's never been a liner? The chimney is brick linked. Would you recommend a liners for occasional open fire?
Generally not. Sometimes a chimney is leaking or has other issues and it is unavoidable, but generally a secondary metal liner is not needed or wanted with an open fire. I use mine for time to time, and would never have any intention of lining it, whilst it continues to work correctly.
As a service warranty and commissioning engineer for both Rayburn and Stanley cookers and stoves I think I’m experienced enough to state that a chimney liner is essential to the safe running of a solid fuel stove. A liner keeps the flue gases hot and therefore moisture in it from condensing in the chimney this is especially important when burning wood or as in Ireland turf. If installing in an old chimney that may already be full of tar from this kind of fuel then a liner avoids the big problem of a chimney fires and in the case of wood or turf tar deposits along with water that had condensed in the chimney running down. I’ve been to many houses in Ireland where tar was running out of the soot box.
So why dont they have them on Wooden boats
Hello I've put one down if the mid feather fulls in you have a big problem it,s worth and peace of mind nothing can leak if you put fire jointing around😊
I totally agree with your comments. I understand the condensation can react with POC’s and create sulphuric acid which won’t be great for the chimney structure.
@@TheAsa1972 flues from wood burners etc would need to be twin wall, a flue liner isn’t. Two reasons twin wall is essential. First, for safety, you are much less likely to burn yourself in touching twin wall and second, twin wall is less likely to cause a fire as it passes through ceilings etc. hope this helps 👍
@@barfmeister8509 70% of heat from coal fire goes up the chimney ,30% from a log burner goes up the chimney ,Explain that one away
One of the most refreshing faces on social media, love this bloke, says it how it is and is honest with it! Thanks mate, love this channel and your content! 🍻
You’re too kind, thanks for the comment!
Agree Craig, very refreshing to hear some honesty, in this BS world👍
Really enjoyed watching this. I think anyone looking at having a stove fitted has lots of questions about the liner but not many options for getting answers so thank you.
As a member of the
Scottish Fire And Rescue Service I've been to many fires involving stoves without liners or incorrect installation I would highly recommend using liners.. the extra heat generated by stove will ignite any wood in the area of the flue
Quality information. Thank you.
10:52 I wonder? I’ve always been informed that the liner is legal or planning requirement in Scotland is that not the case? Just to be clear I don’t care as I would always use liners in renovations just wondering
Thanks for the great overview! Never thought of the amount more air flow in an open fireplace just clearing the smoke
Glad it’s useful!
Superb. Perfectly articulated education.
I never high pressure sell.
I give them a proper education and the time they deserve. I allow them to make a well educated decision of fitting a liner. And I only use premium liners that withstand the acids. I always insulate for optimal performance. I'd love to collaborate with you on an educational video in the future. I am a second generation specialist and I feel we have effective communication. This is because our family took the time to educate us well. To serve others well. Not all sweeps are blessed with a loving father to answer all our stupid questions. Now we must extend our knowledge to others so everyone will be safe and warm as they study in front of the flame.
Nice explanation, I was unaware of the tar leakage or the acid problem (caused by sulphur in the coal making sulphuric acid).
I believe that a standard vitreous clay liner will be unaffected by the problems above but but due to the large mass the cooling effect will cause condensation and tar/creosote formation.
I have always installed liners with vermiculite loose fill to enable fast flue temperature rise and better air flow but was always concerned that I was losing some heating effect and heat recovery from the chimney breast and surrounding masonry that is very useful in providing background heat to upstairs areas.
Yea that’s true. The issue clay liners have is that they crack in the event of a chimney fire.
The loss of the chimney thermal mass is a reality when insulating liners, but it has its upsides too.
Preach brother. You're good at this talking to camera thing. Do more of it.
Yup shoving things down people's throats does make them suspicious these days. Which is probably a good thing considering the type of people who seek power. So thanks for explaining this with the respect that adults deserve.
Thanks I was hoping for it to come across the right way. I hope it’s useful too.
I tried without a liner and after two weeks I started to get an acrid smell in my loft conversion room where the existing 9” brick flue went through. With the smell came the dampness too. It doesn’t matter how dry your fuel is, there will always be moisture in the air that contributes to the oxidation process. 9” brick flues were designed for open fires that have the opposite efficiency throughput and output. Many people get away with this because they have a unused loft space and don’t notice what is happening. The condensation process still occurs but is less noticeable because of the increased ventilation in the loft space.
Scandinavian cast Iron wood burners have a 370 year history at the very least. A recent study in Norway, showed that burners designed over 150 years ago burn as efficiently as many modern clean burn designs and would achieve clean burn status. Many house holders don't know enough about how to use their wood burner correctly. I noticed that your fire is not making much smoke at all and that is the real aim; burn all the fuel and there won't be much trouble with the chimney. I don't have a liner in my chimney and I have thought of re-lining in the way you described for concrete, but with clay (which has been done here in Norway for generations). Interesting post, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
What was the Norwegian study, I’m interested to read it?
Thanks.
clay? So adobe? tell me more!
A slurry is made of the correct kind of clay, and poured into the chimney in the manner described in this film. Portland cement cracks, while the correct clay doesn't. It is considered a highly skilled craft, not suitable for hobbyists. I am a professional building restorer so I have heard about the technique on courses in traditional bricklaying with clay. I am not a bricklayer. @@firstname-qq3xp
A slurry is made of the correct kind of clay, and poured into the chimney in the manner described in this film. Portland cement cracks, while the correct clay doesn't. It is considered a highly skilled craft, not suitable for hobbyists. I am a professional building restorer so I have heard about the technique on courses in traditional bricklaying with clay. I am not a bricklayer. @firstname-qq3xp
Great video. I certainly wouldn't want that liner shoving down MY throat!
Back in the 90s when we got our first Clearview, we invested in an insulated concrete liner from Chimneycrete; the flue has three holes knocked in, one just above the lintel, one in the first floor and one in the loft space, and then a deflated sausage fed down and fixed to the register plate at the base of the flue, and inflated so it is pretty hard, Then, insulated concrete is gently pumped in through the bottom hole, and the mix carefully placed all the way around the sausage. This hole is then bricked up and the pump hose taken upstairs and the section between the bottom hole and middle one filled, making sure the sausage is kept central and the concrete fills all the spalling brickwork in the old flue. Same again from the loft space and then it's filled right up to the top of the chimney. The next day, the sausage is deflated and this leaves a smooth round flue, with a 100 year guarantee, which gives SO MUCH draw.
When we moved in 2001 we took the Vision 500 with us, and bought a Pioneer 400 for the front room - and we got BOTH chimneys lined with Chimneycrete. Fabulous company, top notch product, we've had the stoves heating the house for over 20 years with no issues whatsoever. Recommended.
same here
Sounds like another great solution. I’ve never heard of a 100 Year guarantee though, most companies won’t last long enough to honour the guarantee?
Sounds like a tough, good system though.
@@TheTortoise I *think* it had a 100-year guarantee. It's a long time ago that I had them put in!! I guess they were saying they had the utmost confidence that the material would last for longer than we will!!
@@compostjohn 😆 very encouraging!
It sounds like a great warranty either way.
It's a no brainer. YES. Essential unless you like risking burning chimneys/houses. I own and installed my wood log burner where I live in rural France. Cheers for the video, enjoyable.
I think we have to use liners in france for house insurance
Just had a new stove fitted last week, The excellent fitters put a 5" liner down our old 6" liner job done!
Picked up loads of info from watching this video. Great content and presentation. Your stove looks amazing and actually made me feel all warm. So, as a tight Yorkshireman instead of using my open fire I’ll just watch your video again and feel nice and cosy for a cost of nowt.
😆 you’re very welcome to!!!
standard Coal Fires never had Liners , they were introduced to allow gases from Gas Fires /Back Boilers to vent quicker using the cross wind to suck any gases into the atmosphere
It depends what you mean by standard coal fires. Anything open (eg an open fire) would never normally have a liner (particularly not a metal flue). It may be worth watching the video, because there are very good reasons for when and when not to have a liner, but I believe you’re mistaken on the purpose of a liner. Closed appliances have fairly slow moving flue gases and a cross wind will only assist draw in certain situations (in other cases it can make draw far worse), it can also only suck out as fast as air is going into the appliance, so with closed appliances this will have hugely varied results.
my house was built in 1952 and a boiler was also set up in the basement to burn coal but the owners back then quickly realized that the chimney got clogged too often with tar, and so in 1953 a pumice liner was put in the chimney, the brand was isokern and in fact the new smaller pumice liner that got installed here in the mid 2000s to replace the old big liner is also from isokern!! the old liner worked fine but since the big old boiler was scrapped there was no need for a big chimney liner anymore as the new liner is much smaller at 160mm instead of 250mm as the old one most likely was
I don't have a chimney liner, I have a a flue that goes into a plate (around 1.2m in length) and this goes straight into the chimney - I have an access hatch in the chimney to clean it every 6 months or so; most people in bishop aukland are the same. Saved me quite a lot on install costs (800 quid each stove!)
Yea it’s not uncommon, but like everything, sadly it doesn’t last forever.
Hi. We are thinking for next year of having a wood burner installed in our fireplace, and this video has given us food for thought! My main concern is looking at your fire set and ours would be actually in the fire place would not all the heat go up the chimney rather than warming the actual room it’s in? We can see with your setup you have a flue pipe in your room that would obviously get hot and give off quite a bit of heat! Whereas ours the heat would maybe go straight up the chimney!
Great video and we did enjoy the whys and wherefores ! Thanks for sharing! 👍👍
Modern stoves are superb at driving heat forward. Heat off the flue is fairly pathetic compared to the stove, but don’t forget that heat within the fireplace is not lost. That will build up thermal mass and will act as a heat sync warming more of the house. Definitely no problem in a fireplace! 👍
Another thing I'm curious about is if these wood burners have air fed to them from outside? I know of at least one house that was specifically built with a flue that ran from outside to under the fire, with a damper of some kind. Having lived with open Coal fires for many years in the past, the horrendous draught that they cause wastes much of the heat they generate. We used to see the carpet rippling from the blast of air coming from under the door from the hall. It seems to me this ought to be addressed in every installation. After all, the air has to come from somewhere, and that shouldn't be through leaks into the house from poorly fitting doors and windows.
Most houses do simply leak a bit, so the rule is that no extra air is required up to 5kw. Nowadays people are often fitting stoves with “direct air” meaning that the pipe of incoming air is directly attached to the stove, therefore causing no draughts.
I've been in the trade for too many years fitting solid fuel alliances and I do agree with you as a cheap way of getting around the problem well done
I put in a 6" double wall stainless liner and filled the remaining stone chimney voids with vermiculite - the results are most visibly seen when cleaning the chimney after a winter - the only condensed smoke tar is at the very top of the chimney at the pot and hat... this is in north of scotland where you can see orkney off shore. The fierce wind condenses the smoke on the wind/bird guard at chimney top - that's my more serious problem - the tar at the very top gets frozen by the icy winds and it clogs the wind guard - even blocked the entire chimney one january... never regret putting in the liner though.
Those are some extreme conditions! Glad to hear it’s working well!
I did exactly the same with the liner and vermiculite, when I sweep it the soot comes out dry and fluffy which is exactly how it should be . As you say the very top gets clogged but no issue cleaning it out
I'm considering getting a chimney liner because of the creosote that often drips down after (i assume) condensation forms from the upper parts of the chimney being so cold. Really, i want to knock the entire chimney down as it pulls so much cold into the house. It really needs around 3M of uninsulated flue pipe to help heat the house and then insulated flue pipe for the loft and outdoor section.
I've had all sorts of blockages and burned all sorts of wood but i try to run a brush through it 2 or 3 times a year. Concrete block chimney from 2nd floor floor with a flue pipe down to the fire on the ground floor.
My fast clean is to go to the roof and drop a rope and carabineer down till it pops out in the stove. I attach the brush close the door and all air vents into the stove then go back to the roof and pull it through. I do this 2 or 3 times and sweep all the crap out while wearing a mask and running a vacuum from outside with a long pipe to around the stove (trying to catch any fine dust that might be in the air from the process).
Really. This video should be "why you want to 100% remove your chimney and replace it with stove pipe"
I have a very very old granite house, when I removed the 7kw clearview from the lounge to renovate it for my workshop I fitted a Heta 5kw and lined the chimney then filled around the liner with vermiculite. A big difference in performance and efficiency. I only burn seasoned wood as I can't be bothered with coal these days. My old neighbour has an open fire and coal on that is great.
I really like the old Clearviews, but as you say things are marching forward, particularly in regard to efficiency.
just buying a hose with our fist experience of a wood burner, what are the things to look out for? what is the fan for on the top of the wood burner and i see there is some kind of temperature gauge on the exhaust pipe ? the wood burner in question does have a liner how long do they last and what are the signs that it is ready for changing, thanks Roland.
The fan and thermometer safe available on our website:
thetortoise.net/
The fan is about stirring the heat around your room. Stoves are mainly radiant heaters so getting air movement does improve their effectiveness. The thermometer is particularly useful to new users as this teaches you how hot to keep your stove when running it. This is important because like a car the temperature is key to things operating efficiently.
With regard to maintenance, in the main this will be reviewed by your chimney sweep. These guys are looking closely at everything from the flue, to the spares and repairs needed to your stove, so they are the best people to ask this on their visit to you. Generally it is a good idea to have your stove swept before the cold months and then after Christmas, from there he can advise you how clean things are and whether you should continue sweeping regularly or switch to just 1 a year.
Depending on what you burn out of necessity, you will still get chimney fires inside the liner, at the chimney pot end, due to build up of tar/soot. My neighbour over the back fence (Fireman) rang me one night to let me know my chimney was on fire, but not to panic. Just let your fire die down and get the chimney swept, the tar will burn itself out.
😆 yea it definitely happens
Not sure what’s happening here, most comments miss the major issue.
Open fires, inherently have low flue temperatures- Stoves don’t.
After a few hours running a stove can happily heat bricks to whatever temperature the stoves’ running at.
This over time destroys the withey’s (which are only brick width) causing flue gases to get into the other flues in the stack, but the worse case scenario is where the chippy back in the day trimmed his joists into the 1st floor (and above) stack and generally couldn’t give a stuff how far they went in.
An uncontrolled burn, stove door left open for example, turns the stack into a giant pocket warmer.
The joint ends heat up, combust and there’s your bedroom or roof fire.
The reason the roof goes regularly is that the top third of the chimney degrades fastest due to moisture and corrosion from when it was on open flue.
Hot gases will also leak out of degraded mortar joints, again heating up anything they come into contact with.
Get a liner, then you won’t be arguing with the loss adjuster about what TH-cam said.
Thanks, I learnt a lot with this, well explained.
Glad it was helpful!
As long as the chimney is well pointed in the attic. So no fumes can escape. There is no reason, keep it clean, but are there any sweeps left.
How long have fire places been around 100s of years never needed a liner. If built right no problem.
A two layer liner keeps the flue gases hot and stops the tars condensing on the cold chimney wall. I have personally had to clear the tar from a single layer cast iron pipe leaving a one inch hole for the smoke.
Excellent video, clear chronology and explanation. Just discovered this channel as I'm changing my burner, really good, passed it onto friends n family👍🏾
Thanks a lot, glad it was useful!
Interesting video. But you never said anything about the life of a liner. I fitted double SS904 as it was the best but how long do they last ? We need to put this in burn hours so peeps can change there liner when it's due.
Unfortunately it’s like asking how long your tyres last. 1 person will kill it in 5 minutes another could have it for decades. As I grew up we had 1 heat source (a wood burning central heating boiler stove), and it ran 24/7 for 7 months of the year and sporadically for the other 5 months. It was used like this for 30 years and then got pulled out, but only because my father was letting that property so brought it up to modern regs. 904 is not necessarily the best at all, the grade sadly has no bearing on life expectancy, it is all about use. My 316 liner lasted 30 years and was still going, but a 904 liner will suffer mortal in 1 hour at 1100°C, so it’s far from a simple answer.
So generally liners last a very long time, but let’s say the stove ran for an average of 2 hours a day (every day), in a dry chimney, with dry fuel and a perfectly run stove. It seems plausible that the liner would last the life of a stove which is potentially decades and decades, in fact in those situations it would almost certainly outlive us all.
Brilliant, I'm convinced, a liner is essential. Been looking at getting a multi fuel stove installed and looking to do it on a limited budget, one thing I won't cut back on will be the liner!
Let us know what stove you go for when you get to it👍
Go for the 904 spec it's better than the 316.
Will do, the extra cost is worth it.
I fitted my own Multifuel stove 10 years ago and didn't fit a SS liner.
Because my chimney was sound and already lined with clay terracotta liners built in the late seventies.
Made to BS EN 1457-1:2012 - Classification A1N2
Clay flue liners have a proven durability, with an inherent resistance to corrosive acid attack and will last hundreds of years.
Unlike ultra expensive stainless steel liners which only last a few decades.
The reason SS liners are fitted is because most home owners don't know the durability and integrity of the flue/chimney they own and the SS liner is a belt and braces approach for the installer for insurance purposes.
Of course the installer can test the integrity. But he doesn't trust those tests.
And even if he did, the regulations won't allow it.
A few years back a home owner sold their house and the new owner stripped the wall paper on the chimney breast exposing a crack. And combustion gases entered the room. I can't remember if anyone was affected.
The regulators use these cases to tighten the regulations.
As the SS liner method is part of the regulations now, the home owner pays the extra cost or just lives with their current open fire.
If you employ a technician to test your current open fire flue and it passes all the tests . Fine and good.
You can get a different installer/technician back the next day and tell him you want to fit a new stove.
He will then inform you that your flue isn't fit for purpose and needs a SS liner. Without doing a single test.
What he won't tell you is that the SS liner will eventually fail anyway.
In Northern Ireland new builds have to comply with the fitment of SS liners.
Anyone selling or installing stoves have to tow the SS liner line.
A private individual like myself does not.
Of course I will get accused of endangering my family and myself and making my home insurance void. Even though I don't have any insurance.
But that is my choice and I still have the freedom to do just that.
Ive made a video on 316 vs 904 and the differences may surprise you. Generally 904 is not the better choice.
With regard to clay liners, they will last a long time, but they won’t survive just 1 chimney fire, so for stoves they’re still not a great option.
I have a multi stove and chimney without a liner, but your advice sounds good to me so after the cold spell I will sweep and install a liner, thank you
That’s sounds great. Officially with an existing installation, installing a liner is considered a repair and therefore isn’t subject to building regs. As long as the stove was installed legally when it was first put in? That’s a bit of a forgotten rule, but it may make your installation simpler.
We fitted a woodburner in a coal fire grate which had an 8inch diameter terracota flue. We tried to save money by not fitting a liner but it was a false economy. The fire didn't draw well and we had huge problems with tarry condensate running down the flue and out the bottom of the fire making a pool of smelly water in the grate and staining everything. You wouldn't believe how much condensate there was. We now have a stainless steel liner fitted and its great. The fire burns well and there's no stinking water coming out.
That’s sounds good. I do t generally think of this as a reason to fit a liner 😆, but I’m glad it’s worked for you.
I never really understood what the liner was meant to do, this has solved all that, what a refreshing change someone actually telling you the truth! Thanks!
Glad it was useful.
Thanks, great video. And one that answers lots of questions I had. I basically have an inset stove where the setup of the stove and fireplace means it's not possible to use a liner. I've been toying with the idea of replacing the stove so I can have a liner and this video has swung it for me.
You never know how long things last, but if you have the option it’s normally a good idea 👍
This is a great explanation mate, but what I hated was the huge differences in prices for a liner for a wood burner £300 in one quote and £850 in another just for the pipe. I could never get a proper explanation why one was so expensive. I looked at kits and they were no where near £850. We have a burner installed now but still do feel we were done over on the price.
£850 does sound a lot for just the pipe. I don’t know if any that warrant that price, but I’ve not seen one.
I've seen a few different grades of liner, 316 and 904 stainless are most common. 316 usually has a 10-15 year life span and is just for seasoned wood, 904 is sold for multi fuel and lasts longer. 904 is usually much more expensive.
@@huwbishop6995 strangely there is no real reason why 904 would last longer, I’ve got a video coming soon about the different types. 904 deals with acid better, but if you’re burning dry wood and have a cowl, then there is no reason 316 can’t last 30 years.
@@TheTortoise I think this is why 904 is specifically applicable to coal, the acid content and sulfur would suggest it would be better suited (not guaranteed)
I agree that there is no reason why it shouldn't last a long time. I'm motor trade and have experience of stainless exhausts lasting for decades. They are subject to more rapid heating and cooling, plus subject to acids, hydrocarbons and no end of other junk.
10-15 years was what was specified on my liner. I did the install myself, it's easier than you think and that was with remedial work on the chimney.
@@huwbishop6995 you’re correct about the acids, smokeless fuel is the one that needs 904 liner, horrible stuff really.
Fair play on the install, as you say it’s generally pretty simple.
Of course it makes complete sense to put a liner in. Wood burners are designed with that in mind. Good video!
Thanks. Nice bike!
Great video, I've always been convinced they are a good idea, however I do still think there is an issue, mostly with sellers of stoves, I visited a stove shop, asked for a quote and showed a photo of the liner up our chimney (weirdly the chimney/fireplace had been sealed up, but there was a liner installed) he said it was a gas liner and would need replacing, bumping up the quote quite a bit. I've not been able to find any information about 'gas' liners so I suspect he was just trying it on (unsuccessfully). Happy to be educated if there is such a thing, however if he had said they can try and inspect it and reuse if possible I might have been more interested.
He was right. The gas flue liner would have been from a fire/back boiler. Can’t be reused with log burners.
There are gas liners which are single skin and not allowed to be used with Woodburners (double skin is a requirement). The other issue in this modern litigious world is that unless you have certification for that liner install, the fitter cannot sign it off as they cannot know whether it complies. Silly I know, but as far as a stove shop is concerned they cannot risk it.
⚠️Oh heck I've put this liner job off for years.
Best I get it sorted for our double sided Villager Burner which we heat the kitchen and dining room with .
Good explanation.
Wish our chimney sweep had explained it like you have 🤠
Thanks a lot. Haven’t seen one of those stoves for years!
Hi, back in the 1980s when i was young man we bought an old farm house near the sea in Ireland - seemed a good idea at the time - i spent a lot of money rectifying the old house - we removed all the old plaster throughout the house & had it re - roofed - re - wired & re - plastered -all looked great - a year or so later we arrived & started painting, it was quite cold in the empty house , my nephew said he would warm up the house by lighting a fire in the main sitting room - this he did, it soon warmed up & was quite cosy - my wife came & told us that she could smell smoke in other parts of the house where we had no fires - then my children said that smoke was coming out of the power outlets in the bedroom - we contacted the builder - he suggested that the main chimney should be cut open & the chimney lined with clay pots - I suggested a stainless steel liner - he said that the way the old chimney was built he would not be able to fit a steel liner - he would need to remove all the face of the wall up & out through the roof , cut out the irregular rock to make space for the clay pots & rebuild the chimney stack - as we thought that the house was finishes it came as quite a shock & quite a cost - but my wife loved the house so we went ahead with work - we now have a nice house & no smoke - it would of been so much easier just to put a steel liner in. Ed.
That’s a really useful story. Thanks for the comment.
Thank you! At last a definitive answer to questions about needing a liner, it’s capabilities and limitations and the practicalities of fitting one.
Glad it was helpful!
We opened up a "chimney" that was lined with a square foot sq 2 foot high ceramic type brick. Heavy but very draught tight. We also put a 160mm rigid flue liner in to aid it's draw.
Our wood burner, a herald 14 woodburning mode with the full back boiler. In the room we put in a 1mtr vertical flue and flue damper then a 90deg cast bend with inspection cover into the wall and a 50cm 90 to the vertical.
Result very easy to clean from inside the property.
It draws like a blacksmiths forge!
Also it's very easy to clean
Sounds like it’s working. Sadly that install won’t pass building regs anymore, they banned the 90° bends on normal stoves, keeping it clean as you say is the key.
Hiya
Just as well it's not in the UK . Saying that though the I can understand why it may be necessary.
What a lot of non chimnied properties have I the stove exiting horizontally through a outside wall to a 90 T then up a vertical insulated stainless steel "chimney" expensive & looks bloody awful.
Below the t is a section that catches soot and makes external rodding easy.
Keep up the informative channel
@@a760541 thanks a lot. Yea we use metal flue systems when there is no chimney too. They obviously work a bit differently and don’t need lining, but as you say they can be tricky to keep discreet.
@@TheTortoise damper plates in stove flue pipes, frowned upon too
@@treidchimney to be fair he has a U hi wraps 14 which was available with a manufacturer tested damper, so he should be okay there.
We had one in the 70s didn’t have a liner small pipe that directed it up the chimney
In 1999 I had my gas fire and back boiler taken out and replaced with a combi boiler, so this left me with a open fire place. I put a small secondhand burner in which was fine at the time but after a year or so I noticed that tar was seeping through the bedroom wall. I decided to upgrade my woodburner with a new Charnwood 6 and put a liner in too. The difference it made was really good, I found by burning the wood a little bit hotter the soot and tar issues virtually stopped. Being in the tree business wood was never an issue, always the best wood going of course. When I moved house in 2007 I put a Jotul f100 in with the liner of course and never had a issue with soot and tar at all.
Thanks for the comment, glad to hear it’s working well!
Really helpful. Thanks 🧐👍🏻
Well look at how houses were constructed for hundreds of years and I have had all sorts of chimneys from 1700 or so. All buildings until post WWII were constructed from brick bonded with lime mortar which has the ability to flex slightly until intense heat causes it to shrink and allow penetration of smoke. A large chimney stack and the base has to be large to accommodate the mass of brick which can mount on top with other fire places. This mass becomes so cold it can take weeks of fires to warm it in a large house with only one fire in a stack of half a dozen flues. This can be reduced to a feasible value by inserting a flue liner and inserting an insulated jacket around it. This allowed the smoke to exhaust without deposition of tar because there was no thermal condensation. There is also the point that the liner life can be reduced by consuming coal which will rot the liner from the acids it contain. The liner needs to be swept annually to remove the ring of condensed tar which tends, still to build up on the chimney exit and to prove this a sweep will issue a certificate which insurance companies now require if there is a chimney fire claim.
Is it a confidence trick? No it is basic engineering especially as old houses are no longer used in the way they once were.
The failures you are focusing on are on block/brick chimneys? As most modern chimneys are lined with clay pipe flue sections and instead runs down into the stove/fire, they are overlapping so that rain/tar doesn’t leak outside of this flue, so surely the leaking problem your highlighting is not an issue anymore? (If the flue clay pipes are not compromised that is).
The issue is that a stove will damage any flue. A metal liner is easy to replace, but clay pipes will crack and fail in basically one chimney fire, or through acid, over time the same as a brick or block chimney. It’s just a question of time. A metal flue is sensible not because it last longer, but because you can replace it
Even the stainless steel end cap on the soot trap corrodes (esp. the rivets which hold on the handle)! So I put a ceramic flower pot (which had no hole in the bottom) inside my flu soot trap. It fits exactly and prevents the acidic water from rotting the new end cap that I had to buy. Also it is much less messy to empty now. I recommend everyone do this.
That sounds interesting.
I lived in Spain and they use liners but as the chimney goes up through the floor they put vents in and the heat would come out of the chimney without the smoke and allow the rest of the house to get heated.
That’s interesting!
I can see how that could work, but only with the right sort of houses. Houses in the UK would generally not suit at all, but it’s a neat system in Spain!
Great content, appreciated. Can you explain what happens if a 'cowboy' home installer doesn't attach the liner to the top of the chimney pots but rather shoves it up.from the inside and as its the same diameter as the clay pots on the exit stack, leaves a gap for smoke and condensation to come back down. Am i correct in thinking that this could be a problem. This lad wants to do it his way. I suggested that the liner needs to go all the way to the exit point and be fastened securely.
This is a tricky one. Honestly in my own home it wouldn’t necessarily panic me at all. Obviously there are rules in place and this wouldn’t comply and therefore you couldn’t sign it off, so none of this is potentially legal. This would obviously lead anyone to say “you can’t do this”. However regs have only been in force for 19 years and prior to this it wouldn’t have concerned me in the slightest.
Obviously in your case the proper answer is to remove the pot. Secure the liner with a top plate and clamp, fit a new pot on top and then best practice is often to vent the stack by drilling through it with the drill on a slight upward lean so that air exchange is possible, but water cannot run in.
The flip side is if you’re getting this signed off by a building inspector, I’m sure you’d get away with doing your original plan, but then you’ve got to live with it. Building inspectors will be exempt from prosecution in these cases so if the installation did harm someone, the installer would remain legally responsible (I believe).
I have a house that was built in the mid 90’s.
originally had a gas fire converted to an open fire we use in cold snaps so fairly often in winter.
It’s swept professionally yearly.
Looking to get an inset stove.
The chimney is lined with clay pots.
Would I still need a liner?
Many thanks
Hi, great content. Would you be able to give your thoughts about stoves, multi fuel for bedrooms please? Many thanks
Bloody hell. I have to get one after that, I don't even have a fire place.
yeah he went on too much, i didnt even get past the first 3 mins. Some people are full of themselves
It's an essential item for a stove, but expensive - chimney access will involve scaffolding/cherry picker as no one reputable will just do it off ladders
liner makes perfect sense, but I just cannot afford one at the moment
I ran my stove for 10 years straight up the chimney, no problem at all. But I find now that I'm a bit older, saftey is more important to me so I've fitted a liner. Makes sweeping easier too.
That sounds good. Chimneys do tend to last a good while, sadly stoves do send them to the same place eventually, but you should be in the clear now!
Would like to know about the different types of liners, twin wall, insulated and the like so I can be better informed when I come to replace mine
I have made a video on 316 vs 904 liner too if that’s useful:
th-cam.com/video/mV2KMy3zmVc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qxG9OTHaotbJGgoB
@@TheTortoise Thank you I did find that one after my comment! :)
Thank you so much for your honest words! Now to find an honest person in the US who will install a stainless steel liner for me - one quote was close to $2,000 for a chimney that is not even very tall!!!
I need to learn more about how the industry operates in America. If you get the chance,let me know how you get on and whether they have differing advice.
Hi. Love all your helpful videos. I justed your opinion on our situation. We are fitting a peanut 8 but can only fit a 5" liner as our chimney is narrow. Our chimney is already clay lined, in good condition and had a successful smoke test. Do you think it would be ok in this instance to not use a steel liner? Thanks
I have an old brick chimney. It didn’t have a fire place. I think it was for an old furnace.
I need a steel liner down the chimney to the living room for a stove??
I will add my experience. I contacted my local stove company and got a quote to supply and instal into the existing and modern 9inch flue. I did all the preparatory work creating the space. Every thing was perfect for the installation. The converter piece between stove flue and chimney just didn't fit. The installer overnight got another one made and that didn't,t fit. The option was to fit a liner which was done on a materials only cost. I am still a bit miffed that the stove firm and installer ,reputable, had not got a standard solution for a standard build. It does all work well but on still days when newly lit smoke inverts and doors and windows are opened to create a draught to get it going.
That’s interesting, this obviously seems a little different to the average job, but what may be worth knowing is that if you have a draw issue, it is very likely that without a liner it would be made much worse.
Hope that’s a silver lining.
interesting reply thanks the previous open fire ( baxi ) was no problem although i admit i closed off the underfloor draughting pipes.
Rather annoyingly lots of modern stoves will spill smoke into the room, particularly when they’re cold. If you watch my reviews in the “controls” section I will often mention whether it spills during re-loading for this reason.
Given there is no history of poor draw, I would guess this would be the issue. What stove have you got?
A good explanation,. Question, how do you know if your existing liner is in good repair ?
A good sign is always if it is drawing and working. Generally if it isn’t broken then you don’t need to fix it, but where you’re talking about masonry liners the best advice is fit a metal flue so you don’t break it.
great vid loadss of info
A very interesting video, certainly helped me get a better understanding as to why the liner is needed with a wood burner as opposed to an open fire. looking to get a liner in place while I have scaffolding, do they have to be professionally fitted or can anyone with a bit of know how fit them in the UK?
You can fit stoves and flues yourself, but just like if you built a building, you would then need a building inspector to sign it off. You’ll often find it’s no more costly and a site easier to just get a fitter to do it. But totally up to you.
I'm constructing an irori this year
i live in a terrace house that had a chimney in every room/or fireplace and its a good 100 years old, i was thinking a liner is a rip off but you saying about the gap between the ceiling and floor, i agree how smoke can get throu
Yea it’s just a question of time. The tricky thing is no one knows how long, but open fires don’t generally tend to cause this issue. Stoves are the culprits really.
Firstly thank you for such an informative video your videos are easy to follow and answer most of the questions I have on various aspects of buying a stove. When we brought our current home it had an old oil burner stove in the fireplace which was not in working order and so removed. My question is would the liner that is in the chimney that was for the old Efel oil stove be ok for a use with a multi fuel stove or would it be safer to remove it and put a new liner in?
Sadly it will almost certainly need pulling out. Firstly there is probably a certification issue, and it may well not be appropriate to solid fuel.
Does the current installation have any paperwork that details what was fitted and when?
A good addition to any setup, is a thermometer on the fire flue outlet.
Funny you should say that, I know a really good one:
thetortoise.net/products/the-tortoise-stove-thermometer
😆
I wanted to fit a liner when I fitted our stove, but I discovered that our flue is already built of insulated pumice-concrete blocks and is only ~6" x 12" - like two cylinders sat next to each other with the joining bits cut out (I don't know the name of this geometrical shape - maybe a rectangircle?)
Since I've installed a pretty large stove, (~8 kW) I'm hoping (and this seems to be working in practice) that the volume is sufficiently small for the stove to be able to get the chimney to draw.
I do have CO detectors on every floor where the chimney runs through though - including the loft space.
I would have been happier with a liner!
Yes it does seam you had little choice, but the good news is your chimney sounds like a relatively modern construction, so I would hope and expect that things remain serviceable for a long time.
Could be a bit of a muddle when the chimney does eventually fail, but as we know everything fails eventually. You and me aren’t gunna last forever either 😆
We had our stove fitted about nine years ago and we were told our flue was A1 and didnt need a liner, one year later and the gable wall in the loft is covered in tar/creosote, we fitted a liner and insulation ourselves and had not more problems
Thanks for that message, glad it’s up together now.
All I will say is that I never had a liner when I had a wood burner. It went straight from the back of the burner into the chimney (with a fibreglass packing around a fireproof material). We used it every day as soon as the summer ended with no problems whatsoever - I mean none: no blow backs, no condensation of the chimney in the loft, nothing. It pulled the fumes brilliantly. We only took it out this year as we got fed up sourcing logs. If you want to get a liner, fine.
Yea, absolutely it can definitely work. The issue is what a stove does over time to a chimney, but for sure a lot of people move house before the issue reveals itself.
@@TheTortoise
I appreciate what you say, and all I can say is my experience. I'm a heating engineer, not a solid fuel engineer. I did inspect the flue before and after, and it was in for seven years with three cleans. I experienced no problems for having no liner.
Our burner took the place of an open fire for decades before. I cannot see any difference the liner would make. I think if your flue didn't pull well, it would help, but that's about it. If I were doing it again, I wouldn't put a liner in.
Probably worth watching the video, because the affect it has is precisely what the video is about. Some people believe that a liner is to make things work better. It may do that (as you say) in some cases, but that isn’t it’s purpose. The problem a liner solved is a bit like the mouth guard in a boxer, or the bumpers on a car, at some point you will wish you had it.
I talk about this in the video, but the issue with stoves is (unlike an open fire) the flue gases move slowly (watch the video and it’ll make sense, I’m really not trying to sell them, it makes no odds to me).
@@TheTortoise
I did watch the video.
I know from my own experience as a heating engineer that a warm flue pulls better and more quickly, so a metal flue would warm very quickly. In my old gasboard days, we used to have flues not pulling well until they were warm. But we had no issues with blowback or not drawing with ours.
As I said, all I can do is tell you and others my experience...that not having a liner didn't cause any issues. I'm not saying people shouldn't have one, or that they are a waste of money. All I can go by is my own experience, and it's why I wouldn't have one again.
As I say though, the issue is not generally to do with draw, it’s all about how the flue gases slowly break the chimney down. It will have been happening to your last chimney, but it’s just a question of time. And who on earth knows how long???
Really interesting stuff!!! How often does the liner need to be replaced? Many thanks
They are usually dual layered and should last at least 10 years minimum but will depend on the quality you buy. Good ones should have a life span of at least 20 years.
Sadly it really is a “how long is a piece of string” question. Most people move house before that is ever a problem, but in my experience a S/S liner tends to last 10-30 years
My chimney guy wants to install one in my gas burning hot water heater and gas burning furnace line (chimney line) in Brooklyn NY 1901 Victorian house. $5000 I’m I being scammed? This guy in the video didn’t say anything other than wood burning stove line needs this liner? Help!
Would love to hear your take on the £300 fines they want to issue, I use less than 20% hard wood, so I understand educating the people who use wet wood. But I don't believe the government's stance on the emissions of the log burners. Cars, Planes factories produce way more..
I’ve found this latest news mad. There are no new rules at all regarding this, and most of the rules that do exist aren’t even relevant to most people anyway.
In the main there are rules for the stove manufacturers, the installers and wood suppliers. The things we have to do as end users are incredibly minimal. If you’re in a smokeless zone you have to burn either smokeless fuel or have a DEFRA approved stove. These rules have existed for over a decade and are easy to comply with.
If you were breaking that rule or burning wet wood in a smokeless zone and neighbours complained, then essentially someone might visit you and ask you to stop and potentially you could eventually get fined, but I have never encountered this happening. I have heard of one or 2, but never encountered it myself.
What makes an even bigger mockery of these rules is you could burn your wet wood on a fire pit outside and the government has decided not to restrict that. (when Boris Johnson’s got married, they were using firepits in government grounds, in a smokeless zone 😆 as part of a party).
I’ve always fitted liners. I’ve a Jotul 602 and my neighbour has one also. He has a board at the back of his, I can boil water or make the supper, his doesn’t! Another difference is the modern stoves are far more efficient with the smoke getting recirculated. We also have a Jotul 105 and after ignition, we can’t even see smoke it’s so clean. A liner is a necessity alright 👍
Glad to hear the 602 is being put to work!
Thermocreting is fine but very expensive compared to a flue liner. The flue liner will warm up quicker because it is metal as opposed to masonry . A chimney will not draw properly until it is warm .so as the man says you will get more smoke into the room when you first light your fire. Think back to the days when people use to stand in front of their open fires with newspaper till the fire got going. With a liner it is also easier to clean your chimney .the stove will also burn better and more efficiently. I work in a fireplace shop and the thought of installing a stove without a liner ,would be like doing half a job. If you are purchasing a stove from a shop and they cant tell you why you should fit a liner turn around and go somewhere else. They clearly dont know what they are doing. The amount of people in the UK who leave their stoves on and go to bed who never wake up in the morning is frightening . All because they didnt have a liner fitted. Dont risk your families lives get it done !!!.
well said
I use one in my wooden shed on a pizza oven.
For the house id only need 6 feet off a woodburner for draught
Great explanation. What are your thoughts in insulating the liner by back filling with Vermiculite or a wrap? I’m seeing mixed views.
I have a video on this very subject coming out in the New Year. It’s a big subject, so definitely worth watching the long form video, as there are many situations that it is needed. There are also the majority of situations where it either achieves little or nothing, and those other cases where it is actually a very bad idea.
Can't argue over the safety issue but woodstoves are remarkably good at burning wood these days with secondary burns for one, which reduces the amount of smoke going up the chimney anyway. In the good ole days people used to throw on wet coal, called slag, it would be the crumbles from the bottom of the coal pile and other none seasoned wood etc to add to the cocktail of disaster. It would take many decades to cause serious problems to the brick work nowadays. Having said that though, the flexi liner is so useful as it allows woodstoves to be installed pretty much anywhere and is easy to install the liner. The one bug bear for me is these stainless liners have ribs which attract particles of smoke and get trapped so over time the liner will clog up if the fire is not up to temperature most of the time. I just wish these liners had a smooth inside surface which would reduce the need to be swept anyway. The moist expensive thing if you are going to install a liner is the price it will cost for the scaffolding not so much the liner itself, as you say a few hundred quid. Most large houses today could be fitted with a liner for under £500 so considering the cost of the woodstove it makes good sense to use one. Very interesting video sir.
Thanks for the comment.
Yea it’s a big subject so there is more to it, on the plus side gas liners are ribbed internally but solid fuel is smooth.
I didn't watch this video, but yes, a liner is always helpful. It may not be needed in all cases, but it solves a lot of draft problems and is much safer in many respects including creosote buildup.
Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed the explanation.
Glad it was helpful!
've just had my yearly gas fire check and the engineer has cut of the gas fire (it's an artificial coals appearance fire,) so naked flames show when it, as she is saying the cemented plaster chimney has deteriorated as I had a fair bit of debris on the coals...
Would this be hazardous and if so who would repair in the UK
I was quoted 1k for liner and install of it crazy 🤪 in the end I paid 150 ish for it and my mate fitted it for a fee he likes heights as a scaffolder the hetas crap is where the con is extaution in some cases
Does this now mean that your house insurance is invalid now though?
Another very good video. Cleared a lot up for me. Thanks
Awesome, glad it was useful!
Why chimney liner with a clay liner there already. I have installed 100s stoves with and without liners back in 1970-80s. Dont the liners burn out where it touches the brick work or clay liner? We had springs to put around the liner but that was a a bit of a guess. Your thoughts please.
Metal liners in masonry liners is done for a few reasons:
They don’t generally want a stove installed on a chimney more than 2” larger than the outlet of the stove.
A metal liner is an easily replaceable part, so wearing that out or destroying it with a chimney fire is bad, but a heck of a lot better than damaging the almost irreplaceable masonry liner.
Tar leaks into the fireplace are prevented
Chimney fires are far less likely due to a small, slippery metal (metal heats up quickly) surface, as apposed to a larger, rough and cold masonry surface.
Easier to sweep and maintain, as a 6” stove will have a 6” flue rather than potentially sweeping through a 6” stove with a metal pipe and then your brush opening up into a 9,10 perhaps 12” masonry liner.
Potentially a better draw, making the stove easier to light and use.
With regard to potential issues. The liners don’t tend to just burn out, but hot spots will age quicker. It’s also possible that old tar could have caused more problems in these older chimneys. Generally liners are a quick and simple solution which other than costs, only has genuine benefits.
Good bit of education there. Only question not covered, why are liners both single and double skinned. ?
Single is for gas and double is for wood/coal. Both do the same job, it’s just that solid fuel will be much hotter and more wearing to the stainless.
@@TheTortoise nice one 👍
Yes ,Are these liners needed if you have a gas coal effect fire.?.
Sometimes. Gas is not one we’re as worried about from a damage point of view, so the best advice is to simply follow the installation instructions.
Excellent video and advice……
I've had two stoves in two different properties both without flue liners and no problems if swept once à year
This may be true, but on the other hand you’ve had 2 stoves over a few years, this level of experience is simply not enough to form an argument from. It’s like saying driving at 150mph on the road is safe because I’ve done it, and I just change my tyres once a year.
Great video thanks. If you burn wood every day how long do you think the liners will last.
My 316 metal liner that I grew up using was removed after 30 years.
That chimney liner you show looks like its so thin that after a few years of use i could poke through it with a stick. i would definitly get a rigid liner with thicker walls so that it will last more than 10-15 years
Sectioned liners used to be used in the UK, but they’re not anymore. These are vastly easier to install, and lasting more than 15 years is very easily achieved. Like a car you could blow the engine on day one, but generally if cared for the liners can last decades.
Depends on the chimney my chimney is double walled so I have a cavity those issues don't apply, I don't know if that was a legal requirement houses built in the early forties. You should still have a vent at the base of the chimney tho! because you can get moisture building up from condensation what could lead to mould.
bricks have to breathe that might be a issue using concrete liners don't like the idea.
Sadly those issues will still apply. I have worked with chimneys my entire life, so did my dad, his father, my uncle and all my brothers, so we’ve worked on thousands of chimneys.
What happens in your case is the inner lining fails, and then tar over time finds its way through. You then (again over time) get all the same issues:
Tar heating up and smoking
Tar bleeding into the walls and destroying the internal walls
Smoke bleeding from that void into other areas (even out of the fireplace itself).
In fact a fitter friend of mine has just encountered this very issue. He had installed into a chimney like yours that the sweep had said had failed. A stove went in and a liner, but the added heat in the chimney has now caused the tar outside the masonry lining (so invisible to the sweep, when inspected) to melt and smoke. And the tar is now coming through a bedroom wall, spoiling the decorating and cause a horrible smell. Definitely not his fault, the chimney was swept etc, just an unfortunate occurrence. In this case he is needing to knock the breast down and re-build it as it is full of tar, and then insulate the liner within the “inner lining”.
Great video. QUESTION: I have 6 burners fitted in my Victorian country house and I had liners on all of them. You said that with a liner any tar dribbles down the liner and gets burned up. So do I still need to have them swept?
Yes you do still have to have them swept, tar dribbles (if there is any), but you will still build up soot.
Very interesting ty can you review stove fans and the science behind them?
Yea I should definitely do that. They work off the seebeck effect, if it’s interesting to know.
Very well put. Your very knowledgeable for a young man. Me and a mate put a liner down my chimney a few years ago, my question is how long should a liner last? Regards John
I’m just benefiting from my family’s experience. But generally a 316 grade liner will have a 10-15 year guarantee, but there is no reason why a liner can’t last 20-40 years if the right fuel is burnt at sensible temperatures. Also if you’re not near the sea! 😆 that sea air destroys nearly everything in its path including stainless steel! Even then it will last a while, but you’re less likely to get the maximum lifespan.
You have talked me into getting a linear, right now I don't have one ..
Thank you.
Glad it was useful, let me know if you have any questions.
which liner do you recommend for a wood only stove with a 6inch output . and where can we get one at a reasonable price . thanks .
Definitely get 316 grade for wood burning. Unfortunately I don’t have any recommendations for retailers, the channels independence from that is quite important to me and the manufacturers of stoves and flues etc.
I never realised there was any debate on the essential requirement to control the updraft and temperature of the smoke
from a multi fuel burner and therefore controlling the rate of burn. But I did believe and still do that the key point is the
temperature of the smoke leaving the top of the chimney is critical. Single skin stainless liners are NOT the answer to
all your prayers and many people I know who have spent as you’re saying a few hundred quid on a liner, have very quickly
found their 6 inch liner reduced to 4 inch and causing huge smoke problems every time the fire door is opened.
Combination of softwood fuel, cold chimney cavity and single skin liner causing huge creosote formation in chimneys.
Not forgetting peoples obsession of ‘keeping the fire in all night’ arrrrrh does my head in. Cram the fire with loads of
fuel and then shut off the air and go to bed. Why oh why? No wonder creosote is a huge issue. I consider twin wall chimney
flues are more essential and should be made compulsory. Insulated sections that control smoke temperature and insure
it rises without reaching creosote formation temperature is guaranteed as long as sensible fire burning management is
kept to.
Insulating liner’s definitely has some advantages, but the lack of insulation is not actually a problem (at least not in the UK). The creosote issue is caused by moisture in the fuel. This also causes cooling of the fire, which exacerbates the issue.
A single skin flue outside of a chimney in Canada, during winter, would not cause creosote on a modern stove with dry fuel. The issue you’re describing is caused almost entirely by damp fuel.
I don't understand this obsession that "softwood" is somehow a problem. My fitter/sweep has always said it's not the wood, it's how wet it is - do not try to burn wet fuel, he says, together with a similar explanation to yours. Considering he is also a retained fireman up here in Scotland, I am inclined to listen.
You’re correct. Dry fuel is the biggest factor in most of these things.
I have another video about the best fuels:
What is the best wood for burning?
th-cam.com/video/bxeQEFAHMkY/w-d-xo.html
I've just had a gas fire removed from an old cottage. There's never been a liner? The chimney is brick linked. Would you recommend a liners for occasional open fire?
Generally not. Sometimes a chimney is leaking or has other issues and it is unavoidable, but generally a secondary metal liner is not needed or wanted with an open fire. I use mine for time to time, and would never have any intention of lining it, whilst it continues to work correctly.