I hope the Celibidache movie is played in the theaters at .5x speed and is 6 hours long. Y'know, for authenticity's sake. All jokes aside, I think you've hit on something I've only vaguely noticed: the pervasive use of classical music in media as a means by which to give the narrative a patina of artiness and sophistication. I had some interest in Tár when it came out, just because of the sort of relatability of the subject matter, but I realized that the story itself, separated from the glitzy classical music context, really isn’t that interesting or worthwhile. I suspect the same is true of Maestro.
Maestro is a little phony and not perfect - but a much better film than tar. It has something, true emotional essence to some degree - and no it doesn’t use it’s music as a crutch, if anything there is a lot more focus on bernstein’s home life than his musical life, for better and worse
Maestro is a significant achievement. It manages to be both trite and formulaic while also being unrelentingly bleak. The opposite of Bernstein himself. If you want to see a traditional Hollywood melodrama without the charm or humor then Maestro is the movie for you!
I completely agree. As a marital drama, fine. But as a film depicting what Bernstein was really about as an important and amazing musician, it was nothing. The real Lennie was the conductor who at one and the same time despised Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony but in a recorded live rehearsal of the 1949 world premiere goes over it as if he'd written it himself and had memorized every page as he shapes it with complete devotion.
Tár was one of my favourite movies of 2022. I would recommend it wholeheartedly, even to people who have no knowledge of classical music. There are a few scenes in which there is a lot of slang, but otherwise anyone can follow it.
I found it so cringe and terribly contrived. Firstly, it totally misconstrues Mahler's 5 as a "tragic" symphony when it's, in fact, Mahler's more vital and optimistic one. And secondly, I HATED the masterclass scene trying to mock "woke" culture. The dialogue felt totally artificial (nobody talks like that in a masterclass) and the jab at "wokism" ridiculous (no one ever has thought of "cancelling" Bach 😂). It's as if the screenplay writer was trying to be clever without having an actual clue about either music or woke culture.
1. Mahler's protoge Bruno Walter (who premiered the 9th) was the person gave the title 'Tragic' to the SIXTH Symphony. 2. The Fifth's first two movements can be considered tragic but the last three movements progress toward a final optimism, as it was inspired by his muse Alma Schindler, his future wife.
@@dionbaillargeon4899 the masterclass was as much a jab at "wokism" as it was a jab at those attacking "wokism". The power of the film was that you could take either side. I took it as her being completely out to lunch. An actual masterclass would be horribly boring as a dramatic scene. It was a powerful scene to establish her character.
@@owenbloomfield1177 I know you can't really recreate an actual masterclass, but the dialogue was so badly written. For instance, noboby would comment "oh, you play wery well" after the teacher has played the prelude in C major from WTC1. Can you imagine some student telling Bernstein or Baremboim "You play very well!" after they've played something, let alone such an elementary piece? 🤣
Watched Tar last year and loved it - would definitely recommend it. Watched Maestro a few weeks ago and absolutely hated it, had so much potential that they squandered…
I wholeheartedly agree with your commentary, as usual. I have seen both Tar and Maestro. Tar was an interesting movie but the music had nothing to do with it. she could have been any person in power. Maestro was a typical movie that focuses on personal conflicts as if no one but celebrities has these kinds of issues. I really wish the public would stop obsessing over celebrities and their personal lives. They do a job and the job is entertainment. Anything else about them should be of no concern. Just like no one cares about my life and being run out of a concert band for playing bass trombone too loud.
I think I agree and disagree about Tar. Yes, on some level of course, it was about power and Tar could have been any powerful figure. But on the other hand, the film did dedicate an awful lot of time and attention to the music. Not only was there lots of talk about music (the kind of sort of shop talk that I'm guessing would alienate a lot of casual viewers) but the film (to my experience) made a real effort to make music a central sort of character in the film. It didn't seem incidental to me at all. I actually thought they did a good job of actually engaging with music, musicianship, artistry, Tar's passion for music, etc. All which I did think were wholly absent from Maestro. So yes, I agree with you that I could see Tar being set in say, the world of Wall Street and still being basically the same movie at its thematic core, but watching it I did feel quite immersed in music from a variety of perspectives (as a fan, as a critic, from the point of view of the artists, from the point of view of music history, etc.).
@@babylonian.captivity I believe the musical world was very central to the movie, especially the mentor/mentee relationships and how it can be abused. An artist at her height and facing the realities of a quickly changing landscape and her place in it.
There is director Ken Russell's 1990 mini-film biography The Strange Affliction Of Anton Bruckner focusing on the composer's three month stay in a sanitarium, but it is pure fantasy with no music (available on youtube).
Now Fritz Lehner's (1986) movie "Notturno" depicts Schuberts'life in 1823 and 1828. Although it is only in German, if you have read Schubert biographies you can understand what is being shown. It is pretty accurate, and shows class distinctions in Biedemeier Vienna. The background music selections are great.
For it to be interesting, a Bruckner film would need to included some highlights like: 1. His confounding his organ examiners. 2. His successful recitals throughout Europe. 3. An examination of the terrible nightmares that plagued him and were resolved in a three month sanitarium stay paid for by his sister. 4. His fleeting interactions with Richard Wagner to the point of innocent adoration. 5. His life-long infatuation with late-teen girls that went unrequited due to his social awkwardness. 6. His wearing one brown shoe with one tan shoe in public.
If I want to see Leonard Bernstein conduct, I just watch the DVDs of Bernstein conducting Mahler and Beethoven symphonies with the Vienna Philharmonic...
Bernsteins musical life is well documented by the man himself, all on youtube. A movie doesn't need to be made. But Maestro got my respect because they depicted Bruno Zirato as a character. Bit Part, but Someone did some research.
@@jefolson6989 The movie overall was ok however what annoyed me was the recording quality of much of Bernstein’s (the actor) dialogue which could be difficult to understand.being so unnecessarily muted.
Wondering if the Celibidache film will cover his misogynistic treatment of his female principal trombonist in Munich...Abbie Conant, a supreme player who won the position fair and square against many qualified auditionees. He decided a woman trombonist couldn't play Bruckner and sought to have her dismissed.
As far as I'm concerned, you don't even have to convince me, because here again, I fully agree with your analysis, because my disinterest in this kind of film is as immense as yours. I would add that, in my opinion, the appearance of this kind of film about people who are, after all, only performers, is quite symptomatic of this era of staggering emptiness we are living through. Period. The fact that the music (which Mr. Bernstein was supposed to serve, and which, I believe, was the very center of his existence), takes a back seat to this kind of soap opera, illustrates the degree of cretinism today. As for a film about Celibidache's life, well, why not, given the point we've reached. Like you, I don't even feel CONCERNED by this kind of thing: let the people who find it interesting enjoy it, while trying to be lucid about what's essential.
I felt that Maestro was an vanity trip, where the focus was how well he could imitate / impersonate Bernstein. Seeing the extended Mahler performance was a real orchestra, and much was made of how Cooper was taught how to conduct this passage. In my opinion, the people who think that are mistaking acting for conducting. Conductors have big enough egos, and it seems that biopics about big egos are often by even bigger egos. Waving your arms around in time to the music is not conducting, it's reacting, or faking, or dance - but it's madness to suggest that it is controlling the output of the players in any way. This is probably true for any movie about a person (real or imaginary) with a particular skill, but with music it is always held up as a musical gift of the actor. If an actor was portraying a skilled archer, no-one would think that they'd hallowed status in that sport.
I have no interest in Lenny’s sexuality. Little was said of his connection to Tanglewood and Koussevitzky, his political and social action, or his composing. Why must we spend two hours sneaking into his bedroom and listening to his private conversations with his wife?
Being about an istrionic conductor like Bernstein, I found Maestro surprisingly boring. I think Celibidache's flick has the chance of being both more inspiring and entertaining, which is to say a lot. Or maybe I am just nuts, who knows.
For your information, Dave, the movie about Celibadache is called "The Yellow Tie", starring John Malkovich in the title role, and is directed by the conductor's son.
Fair enough i appreciate you being clear in what you are comfortable discussing. I enjoyed Tar and Maestro as films and its fair they are films first and music is part of it. Btw the columbo episode Etude in Black is a fabulous conductor murderer episoee with John Cassavetes
If classical music is to be more widely appreciated then the medium of film is important. I can remember, as a kid, being taken to a fairly crass movie called “My Geisha” which had excerpts from Puccini’s Madama Butterfly. I was fascinated by this, not the movie, and it was an important factor in my quest to discover more about great music.
I remember back in the early 60s watching a Walt Disney programme (extra "m" and an "e" for us Aussies still, Dave-sorry) in Black & White called the Life Of Peter Tchaikovsky. That one certainly hooked me onto a lifetime love of classical music. Incidentally, the film starred, inter alia, Leon Askin and John Banner who both later starred in "Hogan's Heroes". But hey, what do I know? I know nussink!
I do not like bio-pics - Maestro was nothing special. But I do like real documentaries. Film (video) of concerts are sometimes great. You can learn a lot by watching them. Tar was awful, as are most movies about classical musicians.
The Bernstein family apparently was vetting everything about Maestro so I figured the story would be pretty sanitized. Then when The Nose controversy erupted followed by the stories about Cooper taking conducting "lessons" from Nézet-Séguin and being proclaimed a competent conductor I decided this was one biopic that was more hype than substance.
On TH-cam, you can see a trailer for a new French film called 'Boléro' about Ravel. THE film seems, as far as I can tell from the trailer, to treat ' Boléro' as its central focus and seems to make the composition of this work the key event in Ravel's life
Hi Dave, great diatribe. I agree 100%. However: is there a music movie that you did enjoy? How about the Ken Russell movie, “Mahler”. I loved it. Weird movie though. How about “In search of Beethoven” ? I saw this at the cinema and had tears running down my face by the end.
While I enjoyed "Maestro" and, as far as craft goes it is well done, I completely understand your opinion. And a valid one it is: the true legacy of whomever the film is about (let's say Bernstein, in this case) gets completely lost and is obscured by "other" topics, that may have little to nothing to do with the music.
@@SO-ym3zs Yes. It would be difficult (or boring even) to make a film about "just the music". I understand why it was made thus and liked it. Naturally, it isn't necessary to enjoy his art. Music making, both as a conductor and composer, was his voice.
This topic reminds me of the 1946 film, "Humoresque" with Joan Crawford, John Garfield and Oscar Levant. Crawford plays benefactress to a rising violinist played by Garfield. It's a fun watch if you're a fan of old Hollywood films, but is most notable for featuring Franz Waxman's Carmen Fantasy and his arrangement of music from Tristan und Isolde for violin, piano and orchestra. Isaac Stern played on the soundtrack, but there is a 1998 recording of music from the film, with Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg and the LSO under Andrew Litton on the Nonesuch label, worth hearing.
I agree with you - I also have 0 interest in them. However I do see value in bringing topic of music and musicians -even if incidental/marginal around the real main topics- as a ‘marketing tool’ for music. Even if only a handful of folks that have never heard Bernstein’s Mahler are enticed to pursue listening to real recordings after watching Maestro, for example, that’ll be a win for everyone.
Not only do you have all of Bernstein's music, you also have that wonderful coffee table book of Bernstein photos, if it's not still blocking the air vent( can't see through the tam-tam)
10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2
Interesting about these superstars of classical music and their biopics...I remember something I read recently, some words from a pianist (I don't remember his name). He said: "I understand music as an offering and not as an exhibition."
At the start of Amadeus, Salieri "explains" a piece by Mozart to the priest who visits the asylum. Toward the end, Mozart "dictates" from his deathbed a short stretch of the Requiem to Salieri. To me these were spellbinding scenes, so much so that I wished the whole movie was nothing but that.
What a movie about Aaron Copland one could make! The story about how American classical music evolved during his lifetime - Copland as a driving force..
@@christopherwilliams9270 noticed, way too little. But a nice touch and by an actor,(Klugmann) who actually could play /looks like Copland in a whole movie about Copland,
Point taken. However, as I recall in a documentary about Amadeus, director Milos Foreman stated that he turned Mozart's music into a prominent character in the film.
I saw "Maestro" and it was a bore. I read a biography on Lennie years ago and it was a bore. I think Lennie's personal life may have been fun for him, but I found it boring. The Lennie on stage making music was magic. Young people's concerts were magic. I will just remember him for the great music.
They're not about the music at all...the movies kind of remind me of that old Gerald Moore anecdote. In a US hotel dining room very early the morning of a big recital in early 60s, he was distracted by the ghastly "Muzak". Asking the waitress if it could please be turned off: "So you're not a music lover, Sir"...
You're absolutely right, most of these "music" movies are really about who is boinking whom. I don't care one whit about that in a movie that is supposed to be "about" music.
I'm not a visual type either, so I don't often watch movies. For relatively passive entertainment, I prefer to read books, listen to music, or drink booze. Every now and then, someone asks me if I have seen whatever the latest popular movie is, and they act surprised when I say I seldom watch movies and haven't seen one in a theater in more than ten years. As for music-related movies, I remember when Amadeus came out and people went nuts over it. It seems that some of the depictions in that movie were inaccurate, as would be expected, but it got a lot of people interested in Mozart and classical music in general, so some good came out of it.
My sentiments entirely, David. I made the mistake of purchasing the "Maestro" soundtrack, thinking it would be full of Bernstein magic As far as I'm concerned, the only high point in it is the "Candide" overture: the rest of it is a mess and often not especially well recorded.
Tár is a lovely film and the best one of that year. It's fair to say the story would have worked without the classical music backdrop specifically - but it did need some kind of backdrop like that, because the classical world at its worst it's airless, self-important, and rather small, which are the kinds of niches people like the protagonist thrive in. To Tár's credit, it didn't get anything *wrong* about the classical world, though it perhaps only showed that world at its worst.
Your shirt made me think of the Frank Zappa quote: “Ignorance has a certain charm. Stupidity does not.” I watched Tar, on an airplane, where I watch most movies. Didn’t like it. First of all, as an orchestral musician, I think anybody who conduct the orchestra and themselves in that way, would not have such a career, and a scene with a caricature of a woke student was just overdone. Not gonna watch any of the others, unless they’re the least terrible options on a plane. Thanks for talking, as always!
A wise decision of yours David-wish I'd made the same, but unfortunately I've seen both Tár and Maestro. Neither had ANYTHING to do with music! In Tár, Cate Blanchett channels her inner Karajan in both facial expression and baton swing, but at least the "light thriller and tragedy" in the plot has an element of interest that kept me watching to the end. I couldn't last with Maestro, which was woeful. Bradley Cooper couldn't have been more self-indulgent in his acting and directing; the plot is one-dimensional and ultimately boring; but far worse: Bernstein's life was all about his love of music and sharing this with the world. In Maestro, this important element is entirely ignored, so the movie becomes an extended soap opera that is the very definition of incompetence.
I thought Bradley Cooper did a good job acting in Maestro, but there was not as much music in the movie as I hoped. Tar was interesting, and it had a lot of references to real conductors which I enjoyed. You are right in saying that these films are too involved with these cultural ideologies.
Bernstein typically spoke very slowly, in measured wording, with the characteristic "chain-smoker" low voice. Cooper's voice was too high and his dialogue too rapid...NOT reminiscent of Bernstein at all.
The fact that conductors are the focus of film and tv episodes (followed by pianists) is kind of weird. And the fact that a good half of them are murderers in those portrayels. My favorites were John Cassavetes and Billy Connolly in their respective Columbo episodes. The latter was interesting because he composed scores for DePalma-like horror films, except he was letting his protege do the real work, while he really loved the Tchaikovskian mode of expression.
Just now catching up with this segment. I haven't seen Maestro, but a good friend who is a professional musician has and was disappointed for similar reasons as you articulated, Dave--it's not really about music, and music is what counts. From my limited experience watching movies about classical music and musicians, I can say confidently that Hollywood usually misses the point. The point being music. One of the worst films I have ever had to endure was "Shine." That one almost spoiled Rach 3 for me. And, worse still, we had to endure the embarrassment of poor Mr. Helfgott's attempts to rehabilitate his career after that atrocious biopic. On the other other hand, some Hollywood flicks about great composers have been pretty good, if a bit corny sometimes. I did enjoy "Immortal Beloved" about Beethoven's alleged affair with his brother's wife (totally speculative, but effectively portrayed). Well, back to my recordings. I will always be more a listener athan a viewer.
Tar felt authentic in its depiction of the Berlin Phil, rehearsals, power structures- I felt I learnt something. Maestro - felt fake; and the music took 6th place (exactly as Dave predicted) and wasn't even used well cinematically. This TH-cam clip did make me wonder whether DH feels similarly about the ballet / opera CDs he reviews, i.e. no desire to purchase DVDs or go to an acted / danced performance?
I’m looking at this entirely differently I guess. I see this as a gateway to bring a larger public into the world of classical music. I think it’s amazing to see a whole new generation introduced to the life and work of Leonard Bernstein - something I’ve always enjoyed!
I'm a fan of both Classical music and...Comic books. The Bernstein movie will bring as many people to the concert hall as superhero movies inspired moviegoers to read comic books.
Even though they tend to be very popular, biopics have always been one of my least favorite Hollywood movie genres. Because it's simply impossible to do justice to a person's entire life and career in a mere 2 hours, what you invariably end up with is a superficial caricature of the person.
The London Symphony Orchestra was used in the movie playing the last bit of Mahler's monumental 2nd Symphony subtitled The Resurrection Symphony. Mahler s music is absolutely Heavenly
The Celibidache movie (The Yellow Tie) promises to be even worse than it looks. The movie was directed and co-written by Serge Ioan Celebidachi... aka, the conductor's son. The Bernstein family's involvement with Maestro now seems like nothing compared to this. The movie is the director/son's very first film, it's a Hungarian production and it stars John Malkovich as Celi. Unlike Tar or Maestro, I somehow doubt this will be playing in a theatre near you. I think you're safe, Dave, from even accidentally wandering into the wrong theater and catching a few seconds of this.
I don't understand the hype surrounding Tar. It was one of the most boring and poorly made films I ever watched. The characters and story are completely uninteresting, and all the parts that directly deal with music and conducting were cringe. I regret wasting my time watching it until the end.
Yeah, MAESTRO has been a gimpy gateway for some people. Initially, it generated some curiosity and conversation around me but---- It died out quickly. However, I did use the conversations to encourage people to watch Bernstein videos and, more importantly, I used the interactions to introduce people to Glenn Gould. It was odd how Bradley Cooper was trying to paint Lenny as some "punk rocker" and, if there was anyone who truly reflected a "punk rocker" personality in classic music, it's Mr. Gould. His being nuttier than squirrel poop sure makes generating curiosity easy. Nevertheless, we classical lovers often fail to take into consideration how some musical genres, such as classical and jazz, demand more attention and patience to find the musical "pay off". Even though the payoff is priceless, with the tech induced attention deficit disorder at pandemic levels in our society, it's going to take more than a film about LB being a switch hitter and his flamboyantly indulgent mannerisms as a conductor to generate any signficant interest in classical music. I did notice the Bernstein Mahler cycles did see a slight bump in sales at Amazon but they appear to have flat-lined quickly. However, I am sure a film about Celibidache is the panacea to our woes. Seriously, who greenlit this potential dumpster fire?!
Celibidache movie? Mercy! I have some 'composer flicks' I enjoy: Riot at the Rite, Eroica, Copying Beethoven had some fun moments. You ever pay attention to those?
Dave, think CAPE FEAR. For you, is it: Herrmann's original recording from 62' or Elmer Bernstein's take from 91'. Also I've heard that Arnold Bax was a insatiable womanizer, they should make a bio pic about him, laying pipe everywhere.
You've expressed your dislike for videos of classical music performances - "Why would you want to watch that!?" - so I'm unsurprised that you wouldn't care about films where classical music is just the backdrop for a story.
whaa?? A movie (not just a documentary) about Celibidache? Just when I think life can't get any stranger. I will say that if these movies get more people to get exposed to classical music, like you said, all the better. Regardless, I think the way that most musicians look at these movies is to see them as comedies (granted some as black comedies). Seeing Cate Blanchett physically assault and beat down a conductor on stage at the opening of Mahler 5 in a concert is just absurd... and funny.
@windowtrimmer8211 0 seconds ago Both Tár and Maestro got so much wrong musically that I wasn’t sure I wanted to contemplate what either movie had to say dramatically.
The only thing that's noteworthy about Maestro is he did sort of look and sound like the old Lenny. Thats about it. And hats.off to Bradley Cooper. He fought hard to make it. I wonder who will play Celi? Christian Bale? I hope there is music. Is there anything interesting about his private life.
Couldn't agree with you more. Dave. Simply not interested in all these films and the hype surrounding them. Just want to keep on listening, as you advise.
La Symphonie fantastique is a 1942 French drama film by Christian-Jaque[ and produced by the German-controlled French film production company Continental Films. It may be hard to find, an is in French, but it is actually rather good.
I haven't seen Tàr -- I'm not the Movie Guy -- but it seems largely concerned with the maestra's lack of comprehension of the music she conducts. Either that or the scriptwriters are trying to paper over THEIR lack of musical knowledge by making Tàr's opinions on music vague and generic...
I saw BOTH Tar and Maestro. Both are NOT about classical music, and BOTH are unimpressive as films. BOTH are pretentious as hell. That's just my opinion.
Can you imagine the length of pretentiousness in a Celibidache movie! And let me guess - the next “big one” is going to be called “Herbie”, about Karajan and his secret love affair with Maria Callas!
I have only seen one composer movie that I have enjoyed, "Song of Summer", Ken Russell's hour long account of the Delius/Fenby collaboration. The emphasis was on the the music and wasn't a pack of lies like "Amadeus" and similar classical music for the masses garbage.
Amadeus was never intended to be accurate--it's a fictional account of professional jealousy, so it's not fair to criticize the movie for what it isn't.
For some reason this site keeps repeatedly loading my review. I've tried to delete excess versions and they keep popping up. If you read it earlier ignore the following. I saw Maestro via my home theater system. I wouldn't have paid to see it in a commercial movie theater. It was disappointing, although not entirely worthless. The best reason to see it is Carey Mulligan as Felicia: a multi-dimensional portrayal that draws you into the character's conflicted world, the only acting in the film that makes you care. Bradley Cooper? He's all technique here. Sometimes it's impressive: notice how his demeanor, and voice, change between the early scenes and the later ones. Otherwise he skates on the surface. By the end of the movie I felt like I knew less about Lenny Bernstein than I had known going in. As for drama, too much of the script is only interested in his homosexuality. The non-gay characters, including famous ones like Bruno Walter, slip in, do a quick spiel, and disappear. Maestro is over-directed by Cooper. He keeps calling attention to his work behind the camera -- strange camera placement and editing. It may be interesting, but it's not the same as connecting emotionally. I'll admit I was thrilled by the semi-climactic scene where Lenny is shown conducting the final pages of Mahler's "Resurrection" Symphony in a Gothic cathedral. That is, I was thrilled by the music ... not Bradley/Lenny's manic, posturing gestures which were over the top. Yes, yes, the real Lenny was wont to ham it up on the podium, but in the videos I've seen even he knew where to stop short of mad-scientist mugging. This picture could have brought Leonard Bernstein to life, but settled for being a high-class cartoon.
I've loved movies as long as I've loved music, and I quite agree. "Tar" and "Maestro" are about wee-wee issues. I have no interest in what LB did with his wee-wee. On the other hand, a movie about Celi (whom I like more than you do) sounds promising precisely because he was nuts. The intersection of art and madness is an interesting theme. At least it's not about wee-wees.
I have watched many documentaries about composers and musicians, which are generally fascinating. And i do find the background to their lives interesting, but i wouldn't want to watch a film about them for fear that it can never never be accurate, there are some exceptions though. The wonderful ken russel films about elgar and delius, for example
@@robhaynes4410 I regret to say I got through it when it was first done and watched it again a few years ago. As a Mahler devotee since the 1960's, it made me want to slap Russell upside his head more than laugh.
Tar is a great film but you are right it is not about musio. It's really about cancel culture taking out leaders, like CEOs and movie producers and directors
Good video! You touched on something i have found concerning classical music that i find mildly irritating. First off. As a lifelong member of the Bruckner cult,i resent the invasion by the celibidache fanatics who are far more aggressive then our normal Bruckner devotees. But that leads to what I have also noticed. Ive joined various Facebook group's, that follow Bruckner, mahler bach etc. You hit it on the head, theyr is this mythical worship of composers as greatee then human gods who can do no wrong, that everything they wrote is full of spiritual, mythical, philosophical significance. I realize, they have taken a fan boy stance to composers and conductors. Like you i admire great music, and the ones who perform and write it, but i do not give them spiritual or philosophical , fantastical reverence.
The last (and probably only) great biopic on a composer was Amadeus. It had MUSIC as a central theme. Other movies have focused too much prurient/sick matters -- mental illness, sexual (dis)orientation, Nazism, etc. I know a guy -- a poser of "high taste" -- who kept telling me I had to watch Maestro. I told him I had no interest in a movie showboating his sexual proclivities and extreme behavior. Told him I'd rather listen to the primary source: Bernstein's recordings. He looked absolutely perplexed. Idiot. This is how you can tell a real music-lover from a pretender. I don't even know why there are these fakers in Classical Music. It's like someone who knows not a wit about wine (and hardly ever drinks it) going around talking about rare varietals and flavor notes. WTF??? I only got halfway through Tar. Such a self-conscious attempt at looking "brilliant' and Woke and artsy and Oscar-worthy. However...I am intrigued by the Celibidache film. (John Malkovich!) Plus it's not a conductor that readily comes to mind as a candidate for a Hollywood production. So I'm thinking someone with genuine musical taste is behind it. PS: Anyone else getting sick of Mahler being used in these films? I didn't realize his was the only music that mattered. Keeping my fingers crossed it won't happen with Celibidache!
Amadeus was not a "biopic" at all. It was splendid play (later movie) about the mystery of genius as seen through the eyes of a mad mediocrity (Salieri). As such, whether or not it was "true" or accurate was irrelevant.
Yes, Dave... NO you should never review movies. If you started doing that I'd never visit your site again whereas, if you do not, I will continue to check on you almost daily! But, since I'm here and I have seen Maestro I will, succinctly as I can, say the problem with Maestro is that it is about very little of any interest. (see Dave you were right, it's not interesting). If an interesting movie were ever made about Bernstein, something interesting with dramatic potential it might have been about his early career. The drama of his jockeying his way into the NYPhil Music director job and his bad behavior regarding his friend and mentor Dimitri Mitropoulos. But I don't think Lenny's children would have liked that and honestly I can continue listening to his many great recordings without it. And I will continue to enjoy your chats and chatter which do matter to me.
Community. Maestro is a masterpiece. Recommend each one of you here to watch. Bradley cooper is just amazing. I loved the the movie. The scenes with Mahler 2 are very special.
You’re better off not watching either “tar” or “maestro.” Beyond not really being about music, which you accurately say, but they are not particularly good films either. More PR than talent.
I think the "Maestro" movie was made to make Jamie Bernstein feel better - to help her to rectify things in her mind, as she was loyal to both parents. It certainly wasn't for the audience out in the theater. As for "Tar", I refuse to even watch that. Mahler idiots actually believe both movies will increase the exposure and popularity of Mahler - like he needs any right now!
Tar is an exceptional movie that draws inspiration from Greek tragedies where the protagonist is doomed after surpassing their limits. Mahler's fifth symphony adds a unique perspective to that.
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Not sure why they are making all of these other films when we still have not had a 200 millon dollar Spohr biopic.
HAHAHA😆😆
"When we greenlit it over the phone, all I heard was SPORE, so I thought it was about alien ferns taking over humans! We gave you $50M for WHAT?!"
@@tmorganriley HAHAHAHA
I’m still waiting for a major motion picture about Ockeghem! 😎🎹
Working title: "Spohr Things".
I hope the Celibidache movie is played in the theaters at .5x speed and is 6 hours long. Y'know, for authenticity's sake.
All jokes aside, I think you've hit on something I've only vaguely noticed: the pervasive use of classical music in media as a means by which to give the narrative a patina of artiness and sophistication. I had some interest in Tár when it came out, just because of the sort of relatability of the subject matter, but I realized that the story itself, separated from the glitzy classical music context, really isn’t that interesting or worthwhile. I suspect the same is true of Maestro.
Maestro is pretty faithful to details in Bernstein’s real life, but it’s just too bad it has to be about his personal life and not about music.
@@JamesCello Bernstein's life would have been of little interest to anyone had he not been an extraordinarily capable musician.
Maestro is a little phony and not perfect - but a much better film than tar. It has something, true emotional essence to some degree - and no it doesn’t use it’s music as a crutch, if anything there is a lot more focus on bernstein’s home life than his musical life, for better and worse
Maestro is a significant achievement. It manages to be both trite and formulaic while also being unrelentingly bleak. The opposite of Bernstein himself. If you want to see a traditional Hollywood melodrama without the charm or humor then Maestro is the movie for you!
It felt like it focussed more on his bedroom than his stage
If you want BLEAK, watch that Richter biography.
I completely agree. As a marital drama, fine. But as a film depicting what Bernstein was really about as an important and amazing musician, it was nothing. The real Lennie was the conductor who at one and the same time despised Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony but in a recorded live rehearsal of the 1949 world premiere goes over it as if he'd written it himself and had memorized every page as he shapes it with complete devotion.
@@donlynch8285 bedroom? The most explicit scene in the movie is just a mini french kiss
I felt like Pollock did much better whatever Maestro was trying to do.
Tár was one of my favourite movies of 2022. I would recommend it wholeheartedly, even to people who have no knowledge of classical music. There are a few scenes in which there is a lot of slang, but otherwise anyone can follow it.
I found it so cringe and terribly contrived. Firstly, it totally misconstrues Mahler's 5 as a "tragic" symphony when it's, in fact, Mahler's more vital and optimistic one. And secondly, I HATED the masterclass scene trying to mock "woke" culture. The dialogue felt totally artificial (nobody talks like that in a masterclass) and the jab at "wokism" ridiculous (no one ever has thought of "cancelling" Bach 😂). It's as if the screenplay writer was trying to be clever without having an actual clue about either music or woke culture.
1. Mahler's protoge Bruno Walter (who premiered the 9th) was the person gave the title 'Tragic' to the SIXTH Symphony.
2. The Fifth's first two movements can be considered tragic but the last three movements progress toward a final optimism, as it was inspired by his muse Alma Schindler, his future wife.
@@dionbaillargeon4899 the masterclass was as much a jab at "wokism" as it was a jab at those attacking "wokism". The power of the film was that you could take either side. I took it as her being completely out to lunch. An actual masterclass would be horribly boring as a dramatic scene. It was a powerful scene to establish her character.
@@owenbloomfield1177 That's more like how I also remember it.
@@owenbloomfield1177 I know you can't really recreate an actual masterclass, but the dialogue was so badly written. For instance, noboby would comment "oh, you play wery well" after the teacher has played the prelude in C major from WTC1. Can you imagine some student telling Bernstein or Baremboim "You play very well!" after they've played something, let alone such an elementary piece? 🤣
Watched Tar last year and loved it - would definitely recommend it. Watched Maestro a few weeks ago and absolutely hated it, had so much potential that they squandered…
I'm one up on you - I disliked them both.
Go see the Celibidache film- it will be some of the best seven hours of your life!
"Once Upon A Time in the Orchestra Pit", directed by Sergio Leone.
@@christophermacintyre5890music by Ennio Morricone.
I wholeheartedly agree with your commentary, as usual. I have seen both Tar and Maestro. Tar was an interesting movie but the music had nothing to do with it. she could have been any person in power. Maestro was a typical movie that focuses on personal conflicts as if no one but celebrities has these kinds of issues. I really wish the public would stop obsessing over celebrities and their personal lives. They do a job and the job is entertainment. Anything else about them should be of no concern. Just like no one cares about my life and being run out of a concert band for playing bass trombone too loud.
I think I agree and disagree about Tar. Yes, on some level of course, it was about power and Tar could have been any powerful figure. But on the other hand, the film did dedicate an awful lot of time and attention to the music. Not only was there lots of talk about music (the kind of sort of shop talk that I'm guessing would alienate a lot of casual viewers) but the film (to my experience) made a real effort to make music a central sort of character in the film. It didn't seem incidental to me at all. I actually thought they did a good job of actually engaging with music, musicianship, artistry, Tar's passion for music, etc. All which I did think were wholly absent from Maestro.
So yes, I agree with you that I could see Tar being set in say, the world of Wall Street and still being basically the same movie at its thematic core, but watching it I did feel quite immersed in music from a variety of perspectives (as a fan, as a critic, from the point of view of the artists, from the point of view of music history, etc.).
@@babylonian.captivity That is a good point. I did enjoy the parts about music as well.
@@babylonian.captivity I believe the musical world was very central to the movie, especially the mentor/mentee relationships and how it can be abused. An artist at her height and facing the realities of a quickly changing landscape and her place in it.
You can’t just leave us hanging with this teaser of the brass trombone story! 😅
"Bruckner: the motion picture". I'm sure I'd be a smashing success 😂
I'm sure they will release countless directors cuts, extended versions, and alternate endings so every minute detail can be relentlessly debated.
There is director Ken Russell's 1990 mini-film biography The Strange Affliction Of Anton Bruckner focusing on the composer's three month stay in a sanitarium, but it is pure fantasy with no music (available on youtube).
@@annakimborahpa I know. It's sooo weird.
Now Fritz Lehner's (1986) movie "Notturno" depicts Schuberts'life in 1823 and 1828. Although it is only in German, if you have read Schubert biographies you can understand what is being shown. It is pretty accurate, and shows class distinctions in Biedemeier Vienna. The background music selections are great.
For it to be interesting, a Bruckner film would need to included some highlights like:
1. His confounding his organ examiners.
2. His successful recitals throughout Europe.
3. An examination of the terrible nightmares that plagued him and were resolved in a three month sanitarium stay paid for by his sister.
4. His fleeting interactions with Richard Wagner to the point of innocent adoration.
5. His life-long infatuation with late-teen girls that went unrequited due to his social awkwardness.
6. His wearing one brown shoe with one tan shoe in public.
If I want to see Leonard Bernstein conduct, I just watch the DVDs of Bernstein conducting Mahler and Beethoven symphonies with the Vienna Philharmonic...
Bernsteins musical life is well documented by the man himself, all on youtube. A movie doesn't need to be made. But Maestro got my respect because they depicted Bruno Zirato as a character. Bit Part, but Someone did some research.
@@jefolson6989 The movie overall was ok however what annoyed me was the recording quality of much of Bernstein’s (the actor) dialogue which could be difficult to understand.being so unnecessarily muted.
Wondering if the Celibidache film will cover his misogynistic treatment of his female principal trombonist in Munich...Abbie Conant, a supreme player who won the position fair and square against many qualified auditionees. He decided a woman trombonist couldn't play Bruckner and sought to have her dismissed.
"Taking their psychotherapy and putting it on the silver screen".......love it!
So refreshing to hear a clear verdict on these films, the discussion around which is inevitably the most murky Slough of Despond
As far as I'm concerned, you don't even have to convince me, because here again, I fully agree with your analysis, because my disinterest in this kind of film is as immense as yours. I would add that, in my opinion, the appearance of this kind of film about people who are, after all, only performers, is quite symptomatic of this era of staggering emptiness we are living through. Period.
The fact that the music (which Mr. Bernstein was supposed to serve, and which, I believe, was the very center of his existence), takes a back seat to this kind of soap opera, illustrates the degree of cretinism today. As for a film about Celibidache's life, well, why not, given the point we've reached. Like you, I don't even feel CONCERNED by this kind of thing: let the people who find it interesting enjoy it, while trying to be lucid about what's essential.
I felt that Maestro was an vanity trip, where the focus was how well he could imitate / impersonate Bernstein. Seeing the extended Mahler performance was a real orchestra, and much was made of how Cooper was taught how to conduct this passage. In my opinion, the people who think that are mistaking acting for conducting. Conductors have big enough egos, and it seems that biopics about big egos are often by even bigger egos. Waving your arms around in time to the music is not conducting, it's reacting, or faking, or dance - but it's madness to suggest that it is controlling the output of the players in any way. This is probably true for any movie about a person (real or imaginary) with a particular skill, but with music it is always held up as a musical gift of the actor. If an actor was portraying a skilled archer, no-one would think that they'd hallowed status in that sport.
I have no interest in Lenny’s sexuality. Little was said of his connection to Tanglewood and Koussevitzky, his political and social action, or his composing. Why must we spend two hours sneaking into his bedroom and listening to his private conversations with his wife?
It really is the least interesting part about him. It's not what made him great, it's what made him creepy.
Being about an istrionic conductor like Bernstein, I found Maestro surprisingly boring. I think Celibidache's flick has the chance of being both more inspiring and entertaining, which is to say a lot. Or maybe I am just nuts, who knows.
For your information, Dave, the movie about Celibadache is called "The Yellow Tie", starring John Malkovich in the title role, and is directed by the conductor's son.
I know.
Fair enough i appreciate you being clear in what you are comfortable discussing. I enjoyed Tar and Maestro as films and its fair they are films first and music is part of it. Btw the columbo episode Etude in Black is a fabulous conductor murderer episoee with John Cassavetes
We need a Norrington biopic with Dave as writer and director. I'd watch the crap outa' that !
If classical music is to be more widely appreciated then the medium of film is important. I can remember, as a kid, being taken to a fairly crass movie called “My Geisha” which had excerpts from Puccini’s Madama Butterfly. I was fascinated by this, not the movie, and it was an important factor in my quest to discover more about great music.
Hasn't worked yet.
I remember back in the early 60s watching a Walt Disney programme (extra "m" and an "e" for us Aussies still, Dave-sorry) in Black & White called the Life Of Peter Tchaikovsky. That one certainly hooked me onto a lifetime love of classical music. Incidentally, the film starred, inter alia, Leon Askin and John Banner who both later starred in "Hogan's Heroes". But hey, what do I know? I know nussink!
I thought Tinnitus Classics was branching into the film industry for a second. If Celibidache is taken, there's still room to make one about Solti.
Or maazel
No one is talking about the elephant in the room: a biopic about Leopold Stokowski. Now that woukd be a film to sink your teeth into.
I do not like bio-pics - Maestro was nothing special. But I do like real documentaries. Film (video) of concerts are sometimes great. You can learn a lot by watching them. Tar was awful, as are most movies about classical musicians.
The Bernstein family apparently was vetting everything about Maestro so I figured the story would be pretty sanitized. Then when The Nose controversy erupted followed by the stories about Cooper taking conducting "lessons" from Nézet-Séguin and being proclaimed a competent conductor I decided this was one biopic that was more hype than substance.
On TH-cam, you can see a trailer for a new French film called 'Boléro' about Ravel. THE film seems, as far as I can tell from the trailer, to treat ' Boléro' as its central focus and seems to make the composition of this work the key event in Ravel's life
Hi Dave, great diatribe. I agree 100%. However: is there a music movie that you did enjoy? How about the Ken Russell movie, “Mahler”. I loved it. Weird movie though. How about “In search of Beethoven” ? I saw this at the cinema and had tears running down my face by the end.
Haven't seen one yet. I though Russell's Mahler was just silly.
While I enjoyed "Maestro" and, as far as craft goes it is well done, I completely understand your opinion. And a valid one it is: the true legacy of whomever the film is about (let's say Bernstein, in this case) gets completely lost and is obscured by "other" topics, that may have little to nothing to do with the music.
@@SO-ym3zs Yes. It would be difficult (or boring even) to make a film about "just the music". I understand why it was made thus and liked it. Naturally, it isn't necessary to enjoy his art. Music making, both as a conductor and composer, was his voice.
@@SO-ym3zs Bernstein said on many occasions that the only thing he wished to be remembered for was his music.
This topic reminds me of the 1946 film, "Humoresque" with Joan Crawford, John Garfield and Oscar Levant. Crawford plays benefactress to a rising violinist played by Garfield. It's a fun watch if you're a fan of old Hollywood films, but is most notable for featuring Franz Waxman's Carmen Fantasy and his arrangement of music from Tristan und Isolde for violin, piano and orchestra. Isaac Stern played on the soundtrack, but there is a 1998 recording of music from the film, with Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg and the LSO under Andrew Litton on the Nonesuch label, worth hearing.
I agree with you - I also have 0 interest in them. However I do see value in bringing topic of music and musicians -even if incidental/marginal around the real main topics- as a ‘marketing tool’ for music. Even if only a handful of folks that have never heard Bernstein’s Mahler are enticed to pursue listening to real recordings after watching Maestro, for example, that’ll be a win for everyone.
Not only do you have all of Bernstein's music, you also have that wonderful coffee table book of Bernstein photos, if it's not still blocking the air vent( can't see through the tam-tam)
Interesting about these superstars of classical music and their biopics...I remember something I read recently, some words from a pianist (I don't remember his name). He said: "I understand music as an offering and not as an exhibition."
I believe that was Marc-Andre Hamelin
At the start of Amadeus, Salieri "explains" a piece by Mozart to the priest who visits the asylum. Toward the end, Mozart "dictates" from his deathbed a short stretch of the Requiem to Salieri. To me these were spellbinding scenes, so much so that I wished the whole movie was nothing but that.
Dave, just discovered that there's a Ravel biographical that will be out in March named Bolero...
Well said Dave!
What a movie about Aaron Copland one could make! The story about how American classical music evolved during his lifetime - Copland as a driving force..
Copland is rather delightfully portrayed as a side character in "Maestro."
It could feature his Outhouse Overture ... oops, I mean his Outdoor Overture.
@@christopherwilliams9270 noticed, way too little. But a nice touch and by an actor,(Klugmann) who actually could play /looks like Copland in a whole movie about Copland,
Point taken. However, as I recall in a documentary about Amadeus, director Milos Foreman stated that he turned Mozart's music into a prominent character in the film.
Why would you make a movie about it ? Surely the story is much better told in words.
I saw "Maestro" and it was a bore. I read a biography on Lennie years ago and it was a bore. I think Lennie's personal life may have been fun for him, but I found it boring. The Lennie on stage making music was magic. Young people's concerts were magic. I will just remember him for the great music.
Do you remember "Huberts Unfinished Symphony?
Or Sibelius' unfinished Symphony No. 8 "The UnFinnish" (no Finnish folk music influence, apparently).
They're not about the music at all...the movies kind of remind me of that old Gerald Moore anecdote. In a US hotel dining room very early the morning of a big recital in early 60s, he was distracted by the ghastly "Muzak". Asking the waitress if it could please be turned off: "So you're not a music lover, Sir"...
Hurwitz is a very fine critic, but I do think he should refrain from reviewing things he hasn't seen.
I didn't review them. I make a point of that. I was explaining why seeing those films did not interest me--a very different subject.
You're absolutely right, most of these "music" movies are really about who is boinking whom. I don't care one whit about that in a movie that is supposed to be "about" music.
I'm not a visual type either, so I don't often watch movies. For relatively passive entertainment, I prefer to read books, listen to music, or drink booze. Every now and then, someone asks me if I have seen whatever the latest popular movie is, and they act surprised when I say I seldom watch movies and haven't seen one in a theater in more than ten years.
As for music-related movies, I remember when Amadeus came out and people went nuts over it. It seems that some of the depictions in that movie were inaccurate, as would be expected, but it got a lot of people interested in Mozart and classical music in general, so some good came out of it.
Amadeus wasn't supposed to be accurate. That's the point. It was about Salieri's perception of Mozart, not Mozart as he really was.
My sentiments entirely, David. I made the mistake of purchasing the "Maestro" soundtrack, thinking it would be full of Bernstein magic As far as I'm concerned, the only high point in it is the "Candide" overture: the rest of it is a mess and often not especially well recorded.
I think the same. Thank you Dave!
Tár is a lovely film and the best one of that year. It's fair to say the story would have worked without the classical music backdrop specifically - but it did need some kind of backdrop like that, because the classical world at its worst it's airless, self-important, and rather small, which are the kinds of niches people like the protagonist thrive in.
To Tár's credit, it didn't get anything *wrong* about the classical world, though it perhaps only showed that world at its worst.
I would suspect the Celibidache movie has great comic potential. Unintentional.
Your shirt made me think of the Frank Zappa quote: “Ignorance has a certain charm. Stupidity does not.” I watched Tar, on an airplane, where I watch most movies. Didn’t like it. First of all, as an orchestral musician, I think anybody who conduct the orchestra and themselves in that way, would not have such a career, and a scene with a caricature of a woke student was just overdone. Not gonna watch any of the others, unless they’re the least terrible options on a plane. Thanks for talking, as always!
A wise decision of yours David-wish I'd made the same, but unfortunately I've seen both Tár and Maestro. Neither had ANYTHING to do with music! In Tár, Cate Blanchett channels her inner Karajan in both facial expression and baton swing, but at least the "light thriller and tragedy" in the plot has an element of interest that kept me watching to the end. I couldn't last with Maestro, which was woeful. Bradley Cooper couldn't have been more self-indulgent in his acting and directing; the plot is one-dimensional and ultimately boring; but far worse: Bernstein's life was all about his love of music and sharing this with the world. In Maestro, this important element is entirely ignored, so the movie becomes an extended soap opera that is the very definition of incompetence.
I thought Bradley Cooper did a good job acting in Maestro, but there was not as much music in the movie as I hoped. Tar was interesting, and it had a lot of references to real conductors which I enjoyed. You are right in saying that these films are too involved with these cultural ideologies.
Bernstein typically spoke very slowly, in measured wording, with the characteristic
"chain-smoker" low voice. Cooper's voice was too high and his dialogue too
rapid...NOT reminiscent of Bernstein at all.
The fact that conductors are the focus of film and tv episodes (followed by pianists) is kind of weird. And the fact that a good half of them are murderers in those portrayels. My favorites were John Cassavetes and Billy Connolly in their respective Columbo episodes. The latter was interesting because he composed scores for DePalma-like horror films, except he was letting his protege do the real work, while he really loved the Tchaikovskian mode of expression.
Just now catching up with this segment. I haven't seen Maestro, but a good friend who is a professional musician has and was disappointed for similar reasons as you articulated, Dave--it's not really about music, and music is what counts. From my limited experience watching movies about classical music and musicians, I can say confidently that Hollywood usually misses the point. The point being music. One of the worst films I have ever had to endure was "Shine." That one almost spoiled Rach 3 for me. And, worse still, we had to endure the embarrassment of poor Mr. Helfgott's attempts to rehabilitate his career after that atrocious biopic. On the other other hand, some Hollywood flicks about great composers have been pretty good, if a bit corny sometimes. I did enjoy "Immortal Beloved" about Beethoven's alleged affair with his brother's wife (totally speculative, but effectively portrayed). Well, back to my recordings. I will always be more a listener athan a viewer.
Well quetsched! Allow me just one point of dissent: Bernstein was, indeed, lager than Life - Celi just slower than Death! 😂,
Tar felt authentic in its depiction of the Berlin Phil, rehearsals, power structures- I felt I learnt something. Maestro - felt fake; and the music took 6th place (exactly as Dave predicted) and wasn't even used well cinematically. This TH-cam clip did make me wonder whether DH feels similarly about the ballet / opera CDs he reviews, i.e. no desire to purchase DVDs or go to an acted / danced performance?
I’m looking at this entirely differently I guess. I see this as a gateway to bring a larger public into the world of classical music. I think it’s amazing to see a whole new generation introduced to the life and work of Leonard Bernstein - something I’ve always enjoyed!
I'm a fan of both Classical music and...Comic books.
The Bernstein movie will bring as many people to the concert hall as superhero movies inspired moviegoers to read comic books.
And I too am a fan of comic books!
Even though they tend to be very popular, biopics have always been one of my least favorite Hollywood movie genres. Because it's simply impossible to do justice to a person's entire life and career in a mere 2 hours, what you invariably end up with is a superficial caricature of the person.
The London Symphony Orchestra was used in the movie playing the last bit of Mahler's monumental 2nd Symphony subtitled The Resurrection Symphony. Mahler s music is absolutely Heavenly
The Celibidache movie (The Yellow Tie) promises to be even worse than it looks. The movie was directed and co-written by Serge Ioan Celebidachi... aka, the conductor's son. The Bernstein family's involvement with Maestro now seems like nothing compared to this.
The movie is the director/son's very first film, it's a Hungarian production and it stars John Malkovich as Celi. Unlike Tar or Maestro, I somehow doubt this will be playing in a theatre near you. I think you're safe, Dave, from even accidentally wandering into the wrong theater and catching a few seconds of this.
A great review once more
I don't understand the hype surrounding Tar. It was one of the most boring and poorly made films I ever watched. The characters and story are completely uninteresting, and all the parts that directly deal with music and conducting were cringe. I regret wasting my time watching it until the end.
Yeah, MAESTRO has been a gimpy gateway for some people. Initially, it generated some curiosity and conversation around me but----
It died out quickly.
However, I did use the conversations to encourage people to watch Bernstein videos and, more importantly, I used the interactions to introduce people to Glenn Gould. It was odd how Bradley Cooper was trying to paint Lenny as some "punk rocker" and, if there was anyone who truly reflected a "punk rocker" personality in classic music, it's Mr. Gould. His being nuttier than squirrel poop sure makes generating curiosity easy.
Nevertheless, we classical lovers often fail to take into consideration how some musical genres, such as classical and jazz, demand more attention and patience to find the musical "pay off". Even though the payoff is priceless, with the tech induced attention deficit disorder at pandemic levels in our society, it's going to take more than a film about LB being a switch hitter and his flamboyantly indulgent mannerisms as a conductor to generate any signficant interest in classical music.
I did notice the Bernstein Mahler cycles did see a slight bump in sales at Amazon but they appear to have flat-lined quickly.
However, I am sure a film about Celibidache is the panacea to our woes. Seriously, who greenlit this potential dumpster fire?!
Sir, you are very wise.
Celibidache movie? Mercy! I have some 'composer flicks' I enjoy: Riot at the Rite, Eroica, Copying Beethoven had some fun moments. You ever pay attention to those?
Dave, think CAPE FEAR. For you, is it: Herrmann's original recording from 62' or Elmer Bernstein's take from 91'.
Also I've heard that Arnold Bax was a insatiable womanizer, they should make a bio pic about him, laying pipe everywhere.
@@gregoryblaska1586Never heard of that one, I'll have to look it up.
You've expressed your dislike for videos of classical music performances - "Why would you want to watch that!?" - so I'm unsurprised that you wouldn't care about films where classical music is just the backdrop for a story.
In short Dave trying to say he is a Classical Music RECORDINGS Reviewer, He will not say anything outside of this. But you do like it that's fine.
Exactly.
Spot on
whaa?? A movie (not just a documentary) about Celibidache? Just when I think life can't get any stranger. I will say that if these movies get more people to get exposed to classical music, like you said, all the better. Regardless, I think the way that most musicians look at these movies is to see them as comedies (granted some as black comedies). Seeing Cate Blanchett physically assault and beat down a conductor on stage at the opening of Mahler 5 in a concert is just absurd... and funny.
@windowtrimmer8211
0 seconds ago
Both Tár and Maestro got so much wrong musically that I wasn’t sure I wanted to contemplate what either movie had to say dramatically.
The only thing that's noteworthy about Maestro is he did sort of look and sound like the old Lenny. Thats about it. And hats.off to Bradley Cooper. He fought hard to make it. I wonder who will play Celi? Christian Bale? I hope there is music. Is there anything interesting about his private life.
The Celibidache biopic is co-written and directed by his son. Perhaps it will be more authentic....Or at least it will pretend to be.
Couldn't agree with you more. Dave. Simply not interested in all these films and the hype surrounding them. Just want to keep on listening, as you advise.
How about a video of music related movies or TV series that you recommend.
I could see a movie about Berlioz being worth watching. At least his early life, not when he got old, bitter and henpecked.
"Berlioz in Love", and its expectation-subverting sequel "Berlioz Embittered".
La Symphonie fantastique is a 1942 French drama film by Christian-Jaque[ and produced by the German-controlled French film production company Continental Films. It may be hard to find, an is in French, but it is actually rather good.
I am D'ACCORD...I am indeed your opinion...I am ACTIVATED from HEARING, I go to concerts and I CLOSE MY EYES TO LISTEN NOT TO SEE...
I still remember NOT seeing "Wagner" (1983, with Richard Burton no less--for hours and hours and...).
you have to listen to Wagner being conducted by the right conductor then. Honestly, nobodies music keeps me more awake than Wagner's.@@SO-ym3zs
Well said!
I haven't seen Tàr -- I'm not the Movie Guy -- but it seems largely concerned with the maestra's lack of comprehension of the music she conducts. Either that or the scriptwriters are trying to paper over THEIR lack of musical knowledge by making Tàr's opinions on music vague and generic...
I saw BOTH Tar and Maestro. Both are NOT about classical music, and BOTH are unimpressive as films. BOTH are pretentious as hell. That's just my opinion.
Can you imagine the length of pretentiousness in a Celibidache movie! And let me guess - the next “big one” is going to be called “Herbie”, about Karajan and his secret love affair with Maria Callas!
And if anyone wants to make the least woke of biopics they need to make the Thomas Beecham film.....
@@charlesedwards5302: That _could_ be a great movie!
🍿🎥🎬
The Celibidache movie better have a convincing CGI halo or the fans will be mad.
I have only seen one composer movie that I have enjoyed, "Song of Summer", Ken Russell's hour long account of the Delius/Fenby collaboration. The emphasis was on the the music and wasn't a pack of lies like "Amadeus" and similar classical music for the masses garbage.
Amadeus was never intended to be accurate--it's a fictional account of professional jealousy, so it's not fair to criticize the movie for what it isn't.
Musical-Industrial Complex. I think it's close to prostitution.
For some reason this site keeps repeatedly loading my review. I've tried to delete excess versions and they keep popping up. If you read it earlier ignore the following.
I saw Maestro via my home theater system. I wouldn't have paid to see it in a commercial movie theater.
It was disappointing, although not entirely worthless. The best reason to see it is Carey Mulligan as Felicia: a multi-dimensional portrayal that draws you into the character's conflicted world, the only acting in the film that makes you care.
Bradley Cooper? He's all technique here. Sometimes it's impressive: notice how his demeanor, and voice, change between the early scenes and the later ones. Otherwise he skates on the surface. By the end of the movie I felt like I knew less about Lenny Bernstein than I had known going in.
As for drama, too much of the script is only interested in his homosexuality. The non-gay characters, including famous ones like Bruno Walter, slip in, do a quick spiel, and disappear.
Maestro is over-directed by Cooper. He keeps calling attention to his work behind the camera -- strange camera placement and editing. It may be interesting, but it's not the same as connecting emotionally.
I'll admit I was thrilled by the semi-climactic scene where Lenny is shown conducting the final pages of Mahler's "Resurrection" Symphony in a Gothic cathedral. That is, I was thrilled by the music ... not Bradley/Lenny's manic, posturing gestures which were over the top. Yes, yes, the real Lenny was wont to ham it up on the podium, but in the videos I've seen even he knew where to stop short of mad-scientist mugging.
This picture could have brought Leonard Bernstein to life, but settled for being a high-class cartoon.
A movie about real persons is just fiction. I prefer real fiction or real documentaries. Not that suspect mix.
Did you see Amadeus, Dave?
Yes.
The play is better than the movie and both are great entertainment but historically badly flawed.
@@poturbg8698 Well, some of us do care, or shall we say, notice.
I've loved movies as long as I've loved music, and I quite agree. "Tar" and "Maestro" are about wee-wee issues. I have no interest in what LB did with his wee-wee. On the other hand, a movie about Celi (whom I like more than you do) sounds promising precisely because he was nuts. The intersection of art and madness is an interesting theme. At least it's not about wee-wees.
I have watched many documentaries about composers and musicians, which are generally fascinating. And i do find the background to their lives interesting, but i wouldn't want to watch a film about them for fear that it can never never be accurate, there are some exceptions though. The wonderful ken russel films about elgar and delius, for example
But Ken Russell also made movies about Tchaikovsky and Mahler. 😵
@@robhaynes4410 Ugh. Russell's Mahler movie was an abomination.
@@leestamm3187 But hilarious, if you can get through it.
@@robhaynes4410 I regret to say I got through it when it was first done and watched it again a few years ago. As a Mahler devotee since the 1960's, it made me want to slap Russell upside his head more than laugh.
@@robhaynes4410 Yes, I agree, the film can be enjoyable if one approaches it as an over-the-top fantasy rather than a straightforward biopic.
There was an episode of Columbo where the killer was a conductor played by Peter Falk's friends, John Cassavetes.
Tar is a great film but you are right it is not about musio. It's really about cancel culture taking out leaders, like CEOs and movie producers and directors
Good video! You touched on something i have found concerning classical music that i find mildly irritating. First off. As a lifelong member of the Bruckner cult,i resent the invasion by the celibidache fanatics who are far more aggressive then our normal Bruckner devotees. But that leads to what I have also noticed. Ive joined various Facebook group's, that follow Bruckner, mahler bach etc. You hit it on the head, theyr is this mythical worship of composers as greatee then human gods who can do no wrong, that everything they wrote is full of spiritual, mythical, philosophical significance. I realize, they have taken a fan boy stance to composers and conductors. Like you i admire great music, and the ones who perform and write it, but i do not give them spiritual or philosophical , fantastical reverence.
The last (and probably only) great biopic on a composer was Amadeus. It had MUSIC as a central theme. Other movies have focused too much prurient/sick matters -- mental illness, sexual (dis)orientation, Nazism, etc. I know a guy -- a poser of "high taste" -- who kept telling me I had to watch Maestro. I told him I had no interest in a movie showboating his sexual proclivities and extreme behavior. Told him I'd rather listen to the primary source: Bernstein's recordings. He looked absolutely perplexed. Idiot. This is how you can tell a real music-lover from a pretender. I don't even know why there are these fakers in Classical Music. It's like someone who knows not a wit about wine (and hardly ever drinks it) going around talking about rare varietals and flavor notes. WTF???
I only got halfway through Tar. Such a self-conscious attempt at looking "brilliant' and Woke and artsy and Oscar-worthy. However...I am intrigued by the Celibidache film. (John Malkovich!) Plus it's not a conductor that readily comes to mind as a candidate for a Hollywood production. So I'm thinking someone with genuine musical taste is behind it.
PS: Anyone else getting sick of Mahler being used in these films? I didn't realize his was the only music that mattered. Keeping my fingers crossed it won't happen with Celibidache!
Amadeus was not a "biopic" at all. It was splendid play (later movie) about the mystery of genius as seen through the eyes of a mad mediocrity (Salieri). As such, whether or not it was "true" or accurate was irrelevant.
Yes, Dave... NO you should never review movies. If you started doing that I'd never visit your site again whereas, if you do not, I will continue to check on you almost daily!
But, since I'm here and I have seen Maestro I will, succinctly as I can, say the problem with Maestro is that it is about very little of any interest. (see Dave you were right, it's not interesting). If an interesting movie were ever made about Bernstein, something interesting with dramatic potential it might have been about his early career. The drama of his jockeying his way into the NYPhil Music director job and his bad behavior regarding his friend and mentor Dimitri Mitropoulos. But I don't think Lenny's children would have liked that and honestly I can continue listening to his many great recordings without it.
And I will continue to enjoy your chats and chatter which do matter to me.
Community. Maestro is a masterpiece. Recommend each one of you here to watch. Bradley cooper is just amazing. I loved the the movie. The scenes with Mahler 2 are very special.
You’re better off not watching either “tar” or “maestro.” Beyond not really being about music, which you accurately say, but they are not particularly good films either. More PR than talent.
I think the "Maestro" movie was made to make Jamie Bernstein feel better - to help her to rectify things in her mind, as she was loyal to both parents. It certainly wasn't for the audience out in the theater. As for "Tar", I refuse to even watch that. Mahler idiots actually believe both movies will increase the exposure and popularity of Mahler - like he needs any right now!
Tar is an exceptional movie that draws inspiration from Greek tragedies where the protagonist is doomed after surpassing their limits. Mahler's fifth symphony adds a unique perspective to that.
You’re right they’re both just awful