Middle-earth Mysteries - The Mouth of Sauron

แชร์
ฝัง
  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 105

  • @JamesonFerris
    @JamesonFerris 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +64

    It strikes me that he was probably the same servant who approached Dain before the War of the Ring, as related at the council of Elrond. He also calls Sauron "Sauron," rather than some euphemism, in defiance of the taboo on his name.

    • @tiltskillet7085
      @tiltskillet7085 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      Ah, I like that idea. Although digging into it a bit more, it seems somewhat less likely than separate characters. Gloin says the messenger visited three times and planned to visit a final fourth time over the course of about a year. Which seems like a lot of time for the so-called Lieutenant of Barad-dur to be spending away from Mordor during a time when he should be really busy with affairs there. I'd also think the title would have been mentioned by Gloin, unless the messenger didn't reveal it. There's also the fact that apparently distinct plural "messengers" were sent to King Brand. So multiple people could fill that role for Sauron.
      Finally...while I don't think there's any explicit indication that Gimli was present during these meetings between the messenger and King Dain, it also doesn't seem unlikely. If so, it seems odd that Gimli wouldn't comment on it being the same person during the parley at the Black Gate.

    • @skillsmachine9164
      @skillsmachine9164 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@tiltskillet7085I love LOTR and have read the books multiple times plus seen the films obviously. The whole thing is great, but even the initial plot is a little baffling lol. They never really explicitly explain how you put so much magical power into a ring. So sauron poured all of his power into a ring so when he wears it hes 10x stronger? So shouldn't he have been as weak as dog sh*t then without and before he first put it on? Why did he get vanquished when isildur cut it off but not at first when he'd made it but hadnt put it on for the first time? How did he build himself back up without the ring?

    • @Locedamius
      @Locedamius 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@skillsmachine9164 Sauron was an extremely powerful being even before he crafted the ring (otherwise he wouldn't have been able to craft it). He poured a good portion of that power into the ring (essentially as a tool to channel that power more effectively), making him even more powerful while he has the ring and less powerful after he loses it. The Sauron we see in the Third Age is indeed weaker than he was before he crafted the ring but he is still formidable, still one of the mightiest among the Maiar.
      Sauron vanquished at the end of the Second Age because his body was killed in the fight against Elendil and Gil-Galad. Being a Maia, his spirit could not be destroyed even if his body was, so his spirit could escape and eventually manifest into a new body. This wasn't even Sauron's first "death". When his body was destroyed during the Fall of Numenor, he could access the power of his ring and build himself back up relatively quickly, within a few years. However, he lost his power to shapeshift into a fair form and was stuck looking like a dark lord. After his second death at the hands of Elendil and Gil-Galad, he was weakened again and lost access to the ring's power, so it took him over a millenium to build himself a new body but he managed to do so eventually and became the Sauron we meet in LOTR.
      One more thing to note: You don't necessarily need to wear the ring on your finger to access its powers, just being in possession is enough for a lot of things. You can see Frodo use the ring's powers to some extent on Gollum while wearing it on a chain or holding it in his hands.

    • @tiltskillet7085
      @tiltskillet7085 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      @@skillsmachine9164 The main motive for Sauron's creation of the Ring was the *indirect* enhancement of his power: domination of Men, Dwarves, and most especially the Elves, through the other rings.
      Sauron's ability to rebuild himself after the destruction of his body was an innate capacity, possessed by him and other angelic beings, pre-existing the Ring. It did require some amount of his personal power, but as long as the Ring existed, that power also still existed, whether in his possession or not. Once it was destroyed, he lacked sufficient capacity to rebuild a physical form and lost virtually all his capability to interact with the world. Not non-existent, not exactly dead, but "a mere shadow of malice".

    • @skillsmachine9164
      @skillsmachine9164 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @tiltskillet7085 yes I understand all that, but it still doesnt explain why and how a ring makes him more poweful...if you put your own power into a ring and enhance it somehow....with special materials? You then somehow become much stronger but then that power had to be taken from him initially and drained him. A similar thing happened to morgoth when he created balrogs and dragons etc. But the story never explicitly explained what it was about the rings and what they were made of that made them enhance the powers of the wearers!

  • @romaliop
    @romaliop 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +42

    Perhaps the Mouth of Sauron was not just a person, but a position. It would make sense that Sauron would have retained a number of Black Numenorean followers throughout the ages and given them all kinds of important positions in his administration. After all, they would probably be some of the most capable and faithful servants he could ever have.

    • @Uncle_Fred
      @Uncle_Fred 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

      I've always believed that Sauron needed lots of viceroys and pencil pushers to keep supplies and tribute flowing. Who better to recruit for these roles than former Numeorians?

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +22

      @@Uncle_Fred Yeah, those logistics aren't going to sort themselves out, and Black Numenoreans would stand to be far better taskmasters than Orcs.

    • @Disgruntled_Grunt
      @Disgruntled_Grunt 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      That makes sense. And maybe, when one Mouth of Sauron gets too old, starts slacking off on the job, or has to be replaced for any other reason, the next runner-up rises to the position by decapitating the current Mouth of Sauron. Because there can be only one!

    • @Uncle_Fred
      @Uncle_Fred 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      @@Disgruntled_Grunt It's more likely the current one either dies of poor health from living near Mount Doom, or goes off into a wealthy retirement on an estate.
      Sauron probably can't rely on exclusively nefarious methods to recruit men. There needs to be social buy-in via a reward system.
      Attracting corrupt technocrats via greed seems a plausible way Tolkien would write these types of characters.

    • @kirtmanwaring3629
      @kirtmanwaring3629 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Wow now I’m getting Star Wars legends vibes with the Emperor’s Hands, Emperor’s Voice etc.

  • @Knight860
    @Knight860 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +35

    I agree in your idea of the Mouth of Sauron being a dark mirror of Aragorn. Two descendants of a race almost gone. The Mouth of Sauron could be seen as a "What if Aragorn had been raised by Sauron instead of Elrond?"

    • @EeanWooo-to9kd
      @EeanWooo-to9kd 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      I'd never thought of it like that, very interesting comparison 😊

    • @Knight860
      @Knight860 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@EeanWooo-to9kd Thanks

    • @Knight860
      @Knight860 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      ​@@EeanWooo-to9kd Thanks. Speaking of Elrond, the LOTR's trilogy did Elrond dirty by making him almost antagonistic at least in the first two films. It's true in the books that he wasn't thrilled with Arwen wanting to give up her eternal life to be with Aragorn, but he accepted it so long as Aragorn was able to man up and became King of a restored Kingdom's of Arnor and Gondor, a hell of a tall order, but at the same time the Elves were leaving Middle Earth and someone had to look after it in their place and not subjugate it like Sauron.

  • @oguzhanenescetin5702
    @oguzhanenescetin5702 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +25

    I especially love the description of his horse in the books

    • @Crafty_Spirit
      @Crafty_Spirit 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Has some acid vibes to it 😂

  • @neildaly2635
    @neildaly2635 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +24

    I was disappointed the movie made him a monster and that Aragorn beheaded him. The whole point was Sauron had many human followers. I agree with the analysis about the age of the Mouth of Sauron, nice work as always!

    • @saeedshahbazian9889
      @saeedshahbazian9889 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Exactly. And Aragorn death stared him till he was afraid

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      While I think his design in the movie is creative, I do like LOTRO's take more.

  • @ak-od7mf
    @ak-od7mf 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    Its always a great day when Darth Gandalf uploads a new vid!

  • @Crafty_Spirit
    @Crafty_Spirit 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +44

    "As for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you. We did not come to waste words in treating with Sauron, faithless and accursed, still less with one of his slaves. Begone!"
    One of Gandalf's finest moments 👍🏼
    The ensuing meltdown the Mouth of Sauron displays is worth reading too.

    • @amh9494
      @amh9494 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      I hate in the movie Jackson has Aragorn kill him, it's one of the most dishonourable things a man can do, a flag of truce was sacred.

    • @frenchsterr
      @frenchsterr 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      ⁠@@amh9494 I agree with the dishonorable act of slaying someone during a truce. However Sauron was anything but honorable.. probably the most treacherous being after Morgoth.

    • @amh9494
      @amh9494 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      @@frenchsterr that's not how honour works you don't excuse your own dishonour because your opponent has none. That's why Tolkien wrote it that the mouth of Sauron was promised safe conduct during his clearly bad faith negotiations.

    • @frenchsterr
      @frenchsterr 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@amh9494 ahh yes yes. You make a good point. The movies dropped the ball on that score.

    • @skillsmachine9164
      @skillsmachine9164 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @amh9494 yet in the movie the mouth did not come out waving a white flag or with a truce. It was different in the book. All he did in the movie was insult them and show frodos belongings, plus aragorn also thought arwen was dead. No issue here.

  • @meduseldtales3383
    @meduseldtales3383 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    One of my favorite theories is that Sauron might have given one of the Dwarwen rings to the Mouth of Sauron, giving him a longer lifespan.

  • @hodgrix
    @hodgrix 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    What makes me so curious about this theory is how did he rise the ranks so quickly when Sauron had so many immortals serving him for millennia. But this theory about his age does make the most sense

  • @mrsamaritan6881
    @mrsamaritan6881 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    About him being Sauron's Heir, he was to Sauron what Sauron was to Morgoth once upon a time. He would have made for a great villian after Sauron's fall as someone who tried to be the "third" Dark Lord, although his lack of immortality would have given him a much shorter rule no matter how it turned out.

  • @Negetive2digit
    @Negetive2digit 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    At least we now know where CK3's Realms in Exile mod gets the name Mordu from. Interestingly, he's actually Sauron's heir in that mod, assuming that Mordor is dismantled through the decision war that Gondor can do. He only gets to rule part of north Mordor, though. At least he gets to keep Baradur.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      That's cool. I haven't played much Realms in Exile so I never noticed that.

  • @flapjacki9579
    @flapjacki9579 หลายเดือนก่อน

    "Math of Sauron" sounds like a Numberphile video I would definitely watch

  • @redblaze8700
    @redblaze8700 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    7:03 Reminds me of a xenomorph

  • @tiltskillet7085
    @tiltskillet7085 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Sure, Jackson got it wrong and Aragorn didn't violate the Geneva Conventions at the Black Gate. But Aragorn did practically murder TMOS with a savage stare down.

  • @stevenwetherbee7573
    @stevenwetherbee7573 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Make Umbar Great Again

  • @Kilo_Alpha_Delta
    @Kilo_Alpha_Delta 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Another great video, DG. This video made me wonder if you could do a video delving into dark/black sorcery in the Tolkien universe? I'd love to see you explain how it worked, what it was capable of and what the drawbacks/costs were. How common were sorcerers across the ages?

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I definitely do want to do some videos on magic in Middle-earth.

  • @rogerbrownreacts8528
    @rogerbrownreacts8528 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Does Sauron poop. I have yet to see a vid on it.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      I don't think Sauron became fully incarnate so I'll say no, but I could be wrong.

  • @Svinfylka
    @Svinfylka 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great job of gleaning info from every source you could find!

  • @BelegaerTheGreat
    @BelegaerTheGreat 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Great video, alas, I wanted to hear speculation about his "sorcerer" powers. Actually, maybe you could dedicate a whole video to the "magic" acquireable by men?

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      That's a good idea.

  • @greenman6141
    @greenman6141 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I'd wager that much of the 21st century popularity of TMOS (or "Mouth". Pick your Pop Rapper handle) is due to the wonderful Bruce Spence's also wonderful, if very brief, portrayal of him. Albeit found only on disc versions of the Return of etc....
    eg the extended version, or the non theatrical version, or the blue ray extras version, or the blue ray extended not extra but slightly theatrical version, or the DVD highly camp version, or the 5 year Anniversary of Something version, or the New Line Money Grab version, or the Beating a Horse till it's Dead version.

  • @apstrike
    @apstrike 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Random request: you should do a video on the book The Last Ringbearer. Flipping the script and making Gondor and the elves the villain is an inspired reimagining, even if I can't fully get into it. Certainly a totally new topic many folks don't know about.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I've heard of it, but I haven't actually delved into it. Could be a cool idea.

  • @Ace-cr9qt
    @Ace-cr9qt 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Can you do the eastern dwarf? Love the videos.

  • @General12th
    @General12th 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Hi Darth!
    At least he wasn't called the Butt of Sauron. (Actually, that makes me wonder exactly how cruel and juvenile Sauron was. He doesn't seem to have a temper tantrum of a personality like Morgoth did.)

  • @istari0
    @istari0 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Another possibility is that he was descended from the followers of Castamir the Usurper. His supporters were mostly from the southern part of Gondor and would have included more people descended from those of the King's Men who settled in Middle-Earth before the destruction of Númenor. They largely fled to Umbar after Eldacar's victory over Castamir.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      That's possible as well. But I guess that raises the question of what is a Black Numenorean and what isn't. Can you, as a Dunedan, become a Black Numenorean in the Third Age by siding with Sauron or would you merely be considered a renegade?

    • @istari0
      @istari0 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@DarthGandalfYT In this case I think they qualify. Their Númenorean descent was was more likely to be from King's Men than from the Faithful, who tended to have settled farther north.

  • @alanpennie8013
    @alanpennie8013 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I've just had the disturbing thought that the guy is actually Earnur Last King, and that he repeatedly uses the name Sauron as a last gesture of defiance against his enslaver.

    • @alanpennie8013
      @alanpennie8013 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      He refers to *Sauron* by that name five times during the parley.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      It's a cool thought, but I don't think so. The Mouth is described as a living man, Earnur would be long dead unless he somehow became a wraith.

  • @anti-liberalismo
    @anti-liberalismo 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Tolkien gave more descriptions about the personality and aspects of the mouth of Sauron in a few paragraphs than to Imrahil in the whole book

    • @alanpennie8013
      @alanpennie8013 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Sucks to be Imrahil.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Unfortunately, I think in a book full of good guys, Imrahil is the most generic of them all. The Mouth of Sauron has an edge to him.

  • @MerryMohProductions
    @MerryMohProductions 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I'm curious if you might consider doing analysis videos where you share your thoughts on the Battle for Middle-Earth games, apply their depictions of the lore and worldbuilding and maybe even suggest alternatives to some things that you may not have approved of.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      They're some of my favourite games of all time so that's certainly a cool idea.

    • @MerryMohProductions
      @MerryMohProductions 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@DarthGandalfYT That'd be great! I'd particularly like to hear your thoughts on ROTWK, hearing your thoughts on certain liberties they took with Angmar both positively and critically.

  • @unpossibly
    @unpossibly 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The Mouth of Sauron was obviously a competitive eater. Sauron possessed Joey Chestnut after he beat The Dark Lord in a lembas eating contest.

  • @ellesartelcontar2387
    @ellesartelcontar2387 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Please can you do a middle earth mysteries on what happened to Cuivenien and Hildorien where men and elves awoke in the far east by the way great and interesting video

  • @ingold1470
    @ingold1470 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    It is interesting how Black Numenoreans in canon dwindle and are defeated shortly after the fall of Numenor, while in fan works they are almost always remain a force to be reckoned with well into the third age. It seems to be a disagreement over the nature of evil, modern fantasy (e.g. Warhammer, Game of Thrones, the Warcraft universe) views good and evil as two equally matched forces, while for Tolkien and other Christians good is inherently stronger and evil only endures because of the failings of Man.
    Tolkien may have codified the standard fantasy races, but the cosmology owes more to Howard and Lovecraft .

  • @PackieBigHappy42069
    @PackieBigHappy42069 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I would’ve liked to know how he was “crueler than any orc”. By what measure?

    • @StalkerNaturaliste
      @StalkerNaturaliste 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Easy, orcs are pawns, not that intelligent, just savage. He is a ruller. Look at how cruel were some ss executives ss compared to the common german soldier.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@StalkerNaturaliste That's a good analogy.

  • @crowverra5343
    @crowverra5343 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Video idea; Middle-Earth Mysteries The Last Desert.

  • @Kevc00
    @Kevc00 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Was there any mention of the mouth of sauron in the new shadow?

  • @samlivingston4130
    @samlivingston4130 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I'm sure he's just one of the few remaining pure Black Numenoreans.

  • @cobra1518
    @cobra1518 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I want him to come from Numenor

  • @chables74
    @chables74 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Algormancy!

  • @Edward-nf4nc
    @Edward-nf4nc 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It was mentioned that this was written by Frodo and he might have written Mouth of Sauron ti insult Sauron and he might have introduced himself as the Lieutenant of Barad-dur at the Black Gate.
    I like this idea. For someone who has suffered so much because of Sauron, it would make sense for Frodo to do this. Frodo insults Sauron and his loyal followers! All those who served Sauron were Sauron's, the abhorred men and creatures!

  • @CinematicCraft4310
    @CinematicCraft4310 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Could’ve Sméagol been redeemed?

  • @superraegun2649
    @superraegun2649 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What we do know is the Mouth of Sauron knows how to sing th-cam.com/video/ALUUa-1zUzA/w-d-xo.html

  • @bristleconepine4120
    @bristleconepine4120 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Did JRRT ever explicitly define exactly what "Black Númenorean" means? For example, would a Dúnadan who turns evil qualify?
    I would assume not, given that Castamir was clearly evil seeing what he did to Eldacar's son, yet Castamir was never called a Black Númenorean to our knowledge.

    • @DarthGandalfYT
      @DarthGandalfYT  8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      We're not actually sure. You're correct that he never refers to Castamir and his descendants as Black Numenoreans, but rather as "rebels". Personally, I think that a Black Numenorean would have to be descended from the King's Men who survived the Downfall of Numenor. I wouldn't say that you could become a Black Numenorean by simply siding with Sauron.

  • @apstrike
    @apstrike 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I thought this character was an epic fail in the book and movie. The guy should be a Machiavellian manipulator and someone who strikes fear. Someone who can make you wonder if he's able to best Aragorn or Gandalf in debate before losing. This 'evil men are cowards at heart' trope doesn't serve the story well and doesn't make us more fearful for the coming battle and the fate of Frodo. Other writers not as gifted as Tolkien have done much better menacing minions.
    The bad teeth are just gross. You know Sauron kept himself looking good and you expect the same in his servant.

  • @BioHunter1990
    @BioHunter1990 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Dude needs a dentist.

  • @cycklist
    @cycklist 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

    Lieutenant is pronounced 'leff-tenant'. Tolkien wasn't American.

    • @rogerbrownreacts8528
      @rogerbrownreacts8528 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      American English is purely Phonetic. It was done on purpose to separate the New US from the motherland.

    • @Crafty_Spirit
      @Crafty_Spirit 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      And neither is Darth Gandalf

    • @anonymous-hz2un
      @anonymous-hz2un 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      ​@@rogerbrownreacts8528 Is it possible to learn this power..?

    • @tiltskillet7085
      @tiltskillet7085 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@drt1605 lol

    • @bradley4706
      @bradley4706 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I hate the Americanisation of British and other commonwealth cultures.

  • @m_rissspeedruns1231
    @m_rissspeedruns1231 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    First

  • @cavetroll666
    @cavetroll666 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    First