Squid Game 2's trans character is great... but there's a still a problem
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One note - you kept mentioning how it is unexcusable to not cast cis actors for trans roles, ESPECIALLY in the US and Europe. This will probably sound nitpicky but Europe is not a monolith. In my country (usually considered East Europe) for example we genuinely don't have trans actors in mainstream media. There were literal headlines for "First transgender actress" just a few years ago and guess what, she isn't even an actress anymore because noone would cast her. There was one prominent trans role on prime time TV five years ago (trans woman played by a cis woman bizzarely voiced by a cis man) and that's basically it.
I'm not saying this to disagree with the video, but in some places there is nuance needed and I think South Korea might even be more progressive than my country, we don't even have conversations about things like this.
that's so sad :( 2 out of the 3 Korean trans actresses that Vera showed in this video have also retired as well. idk if they were not offered any roles, or what few roles they were offered just didn't interest them. I followed Choi Han-Bit and Harisu's career for a while and I remember some of the projects they had, while seemed like embracing trans-performers, were actually super exploitative of the their trans-identity.
the most prominent trans women in my region (Balkan) is DJ and entertainer that has to do odd jobs and often get underpaid, she can't even have YT channel due to sheer hate and transphobia she face every time she post. last time i checked we had less than 100 registered trans people in my country and i can only wish to see them succeed
@@iamai_iggs it is thankfully better here in online spaces but only by a close margin
I think the way that TV show handled the casting challenge is interesting. I really like that they cast a cis woman in the role so that, at least people saw a woman playing a woman. And I think a portrayal of a trans character’s transition, even when casting a trans actor, could involve a composite of multiple actors to show different stages of the character’s transition.
I hope that your country becomes more open to and supportive of the trans people there, especially knowing everything else that tends to accompany that acceptance and support for the rest of society.
Indeed, my country's leadership has also stolen US' anti-woke politics and we had a shooting in a gay bar a couple years back so something like this would not only be career svlclde but also could be one irl. Always bugs me when foreigners assume Europe ends at Germany or something, that's not the case.
I'm Korean, so I might get to weigh in a little on this. Two things: first, trans visibility on the level of having out trans actors is still a bit of a pipe dream in our country. We've had trans celebrities before, but the social climate is still not accepting enough that many actors would be willing to take the plunge. A cis woman playing a trans woman is a solution I didn't consider, but could work in the hands of a good director who doesn't turn the whole thing into a caricatural farce.
Second, there's something even more egregious that I've never seen addressed about Hyun-ju anywhere, which is the fact that she voted Yes twice in both rounds. There's a pretty clear metaphor in SG2 about elections, particularly re: the climate of the 2022 Korean presidential election (but could connect pretty nicely to the US's bipartisan system too) in which it was widely considered among progressives that conservatives who voted for Yoon, the conservative candidate, were doing so at the expense of others' lives. I'm sure many people with Trump-supporting family members felt the same.
We are given a sympathetic rationale for Hyun-ju's choice and it is clear that the director is asking us to empathize with her, so I don't think Director Hwang intended for us to assume she has a disregard for others' lives. But I think he overlooked the optics of having a trans woman character vote Yes in both rounds (SG2's metaphorical parallel to a conservative, pro-capitalist vote) and subsequently end up losing the (cis) female character who showed allyship to her. The Korean TERF movement, as does the global one, REALLY loves to paint trans women as politically and functionally equal to cis men, who will turn against and vote for/enact policies that will hurt cis women at the first chance they get, so I found it really unfortunate that SG2's trans character ended up in this kind of position, almost certainly unintentionally. It feels sloppy on the part of a director who, if I may put it cynically, was at least eager to hop onto a hot-button topic on the side of the progressive left. Maybe some more tact could have helped.
Wow... So many comments here and this one has basically no love despite having the most nuanced take. It has hallmarks and overtones of original thought and critical thinking. I'm not familiar with the Korean political climate, as do most of the people watching this.
I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
Hi, I wanna thank you for your perspective on the topic since I haven't had much opportunity to examine the climate on this topics as it pertains to South Korea (aside from some reports I've seen in the past).
Excelent comment, I hope more people get read it.
@@Cerise4697 this is for sure one of the most valuable comments in this whole comment section
Thanks for the insight. All the arguments I hear about why they HAD to cast a cis man … like, no one was forcing the writers to do a trans storyline at all. They clearly wanted to jump on that bc they didn’t anticipate the show would do so well internationally. It’s a bit sus
I did not know that about the Korean TERF movement and I doubt any western viewers would pick up on it. It makes a lot of sense though actually and shows how insidious this all is.
Wow, I knew the 4B movement was a TERF- fest with it being political lesbianism at its core and all of the gender essentialism it brings, but that was all I was aware of, and yours is definitely the most important comment in this comment section.
Sidenote I have about unintentional bad optics: I noticed that Hyn-ju is the only woman amongst the mutineers, with the two most prominent cis female characters left alive being an older woman and a pregnant twenty-something (yes, Jo Yuri's 23, but Jun-Hee may not be that age) who's apparently in the third trimester, and they both have male loved ones who they forbid from fighting (though Geum-ja could have at least given her hairpin to Hyun-ju or some other character as a last resort), whereas women were and have been fighters in revolutionary movements worldwide and throughout history. I mean, it's nice to see a trans woman leading this ragtag group of cis men and showing them how to use the equipment, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that the revolt is made entirely by AMAB people all played by cis male actors whilst the guards get to have cis women armed, with the female guard character being a defector from the NK military at that! Definitely something that wasn't intentional and brought on by writing circumstance (e.g.: losing Se-mi in the brawl because she was more connected to the Thanos subplot than to the main cast) but it could have definitely been avoided.
Edit: they should have also thought about the implications you talked about in your comment, as it stands Young-mi essentially gets fridged for the progress of two almost otherwise separate subplots.
I don't blame one bit the lack of trans actors in South Korea. Coming out when you are already an established celebrity is basically career suicide, and such a massive target in a country that can be so dangerous is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy
This!!!
True, but they could have casted a cis woman to do it, if there weren't any trans actors available. They wouldn't have cast a man to play a black woman or a lesbian woman, right?
@@valkeakirahviyes but the character was a pre-op trans woman whose entire reason for getting into the games was to get enough money for the necessary surgeries and operations to achieve her goals of transition. So her already being a completely passing woman wouldn’t really work for the narrative, you know? Unless they got a more visibly masculine looking female actor, but knowing S.koreas beauty standards and how important and strict they are in order to succeed in an entertainment career, it might have been incredibly difficult.
bro i just found out how south koreans reacted to thanos’ actor smoking weed 3 times as a fully grown adult 😭 shit is wild so i’m not that surprised knowing it’s not great for trans people (i assumed this when watching the show as well)
@@TheSofkujepanenthat’s exactly why i think it’s okay in this case, those pics they had of the trans actresses looked like fully passing women which makes sense if plastic surgery is normal for actors and models and stuff to get…but she’s still self conscious about not having all of her surgeries and people probably wouldn’t be able to tell she was trans (like the old woman who is being transphobic) which would change the story if the look doesn’t match the script…i also didn’t even know it was a cis man until after watching it lol the men kind of tend to look feminine in korea tbh which is not a judgment coz they’re all pretty but i think it makes it harder to tell if someone was a cis man playing a trans woman
I definitely agree though the problem is that the LGBTQ+ community in South Korea is very marginalized which is heartbreaking which the director even says, he clearly cares about the community which really warms my heart. What I'm hoping is that this positive trans character in this massive show will open more people's eyes in South Korea and make them more accepting which will hopefully lead to more trans characters and trans actors being cast in those parts!
As an enby, I was immediately skeptical when I saw that the actor was not trans irl. However, the show left me pleasantly surprised! This is some of the best trans rep I've ever seen. Yes, it is always best to have someone on the role who has lived the character's experiences, but we need more trans people behind the camera, too! Trans writers, directors, cinematographers, etc, creating our own shows and movies. All things considered, I am quite impressed by what Squid Game did with best girl. It's a careful step towards more acceptance in Korea.
Hyun-ju really is best girl
The creator stressing open trans actors makes me wonder about how many of their actors aren’t open in fear of them losing work.
I too looked up trans actresses in Korea and I did notice that out of the three that come up two seem to have retired years ago and one hasn't been in a production in a the past couple years and may have also retired. Reason for retirement unknown but you could imagine why.....
Others have mentioned that men must do military service and for women it's optional and that they wanted someone with military experience.
Many cis women actresses likely skip their military service.
Using the American and western European metric for South Korea can be unfair because they are socially, culturally, politically behind on LGBT rights. Being an out trans actress is career suicide, again the three trans actresses that come up they haven't been in anything for years! Choi Han-bit (last role 2012), Harisu (last role 2009 but did release a music a lbum in 2018) Lee Si-Yeon (last role 2008).
i don’t feel like casting a man to be a trans woman means they think a trans woman is just a man dressing up…i think there’s nuance considering at least in squid games that the girl hasn’t fully transitioned, isn’t supposed to be passing (it’s in the story), and she was a soldier so she probably would’ve been kinda ripped and therefore would be harder to pass (like becoming un-ripped and very petite would be difficult, because that’s the feminine beauty standard there) so i think it’s more about the physical body resembling what the creator envisioned rather than him perceiving the trans character as really just a man…i think your point stands in general tho, i just know this story specifically i can understand why it was done that way
Excellent point. I haven’t seen that pop up in this conversation yet so am glad you did.
And it also explains why she kept voting to stay in. She needed enough money to finish her transition and move to Thailand because she can be part of a community of individuals like her.
And I forgot to add.
What was devastating about this character is she was discriminated by everyone around her. She couldn’t work anymore. People, including her family, outcasted her and refused to help her.
It is why she is desperate enough, like every other player, to play Squid Game.
I feel the nuance of the actual story as well as the culture in and out of the show’s universe gets lost in this video.
Finally someone who actually watched S2 graced the comment section. Couldnt've said it better myself.
I defend this specific situation because from what I've heard the situation for trans individuals in Korean isn't great and I'd rather have a cis man play a trans woman then put an actual trans individual in danger for representation
I'll wait to watch the video, but I hope you're taking into consideration the HUGE disparities in Korean culture when assessing this. Ultimately, South Korea is years behind when it comes to LGBTQ+ acceptance, and thus, we, Westerners cannot trully assess this situation exclusively from our own lens.
I think we can when it is funded by a huge western mega corp like Netflix and I think Vera brings up some valid points about transfemme casting in particular and an option if a better way to handle it if your pool of available is actors is primarily Cis gendered.
@@TheDawnofVanlife oh my goodness! I was just reading through the comments and saw you here 😆
@@TheDawnofVanlife as much as this is Netflix, this is still Korea. Had there been a trans actor willing to take the role, this could put her at risk for Korea is not a safe place for us members of the LGBTQ+. Holland, one of the only if not the only out gay idol, was attacked for being gay. They did ask for a trans actress, no one came forth, and it's because it's not safe. It's easy to criticize other countries from our western perspective, but it's not fair to LGBTQ+ people living in unsafe places.
@@SimmerErin Hey Erin. I was just thinking exactly the same in regards to you. I didn't know you were part of the council but then why would I. It's really great to see you here.
@@Elwaves2925 oh my goodness you too! Yes I love this channel!
Kinda reminds me of Alice in Borderland, a Japanese series, where a trans woman named Kuina is played by a cis actress (Aya Asahina). When we see a younger Kuina, she's played by male actor Rihito Itagaki, who is well known for having a more feminine/androgynous look.
For me, if the older version were played by a trans woman who approved of the young actor playing a non-out to themselves version, this *could* make sense
But that would have to be thoroughly talked over first
At least she’s played by a woman…?
@@zigzagpersonThis definitely was a good choice considering the social climate in japan too
Korea is an incredibly conservative country on many social issues. I don't know if it is conductive to use the same yardstick you'd use to judge the US on this topic with. Actors/ Idols/ victims of actual crimes have been driven to suicide for 'lesser' things than being trans. It's quite dire when you start to look into these thinks. They definitely could have cast a woman, though.
I understand that casting choices can have a significant impact on the perception of the people being represented. I also understand that casting a cis person, and especially a cis man to play a trans woman, does not provide the best representation for trans people, and perpetuates harmful stereotypes about them, such as the idea that they are merely pretending and not truly the gender they identify as. I also understand that one potential solution would have been to cast someone of the same gender as the character, ie: casting a woman to play a woman.
However, I can’t help but feel that the line being drawn here is too rigid and doesn’t take into account, without denying the evident flaws, some of the benefits that such a representation can bring if it is done well and aligns with the script and the acting, because these elements do interact to shape the final perception of the audience.
I will speak only from my experience, so I understand that it may not resonate with everyone and could be highly specific. As an AMAB person who is still perceived as such, who has finally decided to acknowledge their feelings about their gender, and who is trying to change little by little while navigating a highly intolerant and conservative environment, I deeply identified with the character. Profoundly. Mentally, emotionally, and even physically.
I related to the economic and social struggles she had to endure, to the family and friends who abandoned her, to the way society stared and threatened her, to her aspirations to live a peaceful life and feel comfortable in her own skin. And this identification was only so profound because her life experiences interacted with her physical appearance. She’s a pre-op character, early in her transition, who doesn’t have 100% passing, still retaining many “masculine” features that I share as well. She is a character who resembles me.
I sincerely don’t think that a cis woman, who is not AMAB and doesn’t necessarily share these specific characteristics, could have resonated with me as deeply if she had played the role of Hyun Ju.
Now, I absolutely recognize the inherent issues of representation that this poses, and I agree that when there’s a choice to cast a trans actress, or at the very least an actress of the same gender as the character, in the vast majority of cases, it’s the better option. But I think the line is much blurrier than rigid, and that SG2 falls into this blur.
Because of the discrimination in Korea, it is hard to find, and dangerous for the safety of actresses, to cast a trans actress, especially for a series as big as SG. Moreover, in this specific case, the acting, the script, and the physicality conveyed by the casting interact really well together and, I believe, will allow many trans folks out there, especially baby trans ones, to feel seen and represented.
I don’t think everything about the casting is to be dismissed here, even though such cases are rare and should remain the exception.
People are whining for no reason, the casting makes sense given her backstory and how the show goes.
6:11 also it's appropriate to address cause korea is still as a society not very accepting of trans people as well as LGBTQIA+ in general. I've seen only one trans person on a variety show (or was it some talking program? Anyhow), there are few high profile gay/lesbian actors, people are still fighting for not even legal marriage but acknowledging of living together for years as defacto marriage in order to receive some benefits (like straight people do get to do), etc.
I'm making assumptions here, but from what I know of Korean culture I think part of the reason they picked a cis male actor is because they wanted the character to have military experience. Since women don't have to enlist, it probably didn't occur to them to consider a cis woman for the role.
I'm not accusing anyone in the show's staff of anything individually, but it's a fact that misogyny is a problem in Korea. The recently impeached president won his seat in part by running on misogyny. I really don't think, when society operates like that for them, it would have occurred at all. They have a long way to go towards progress for LGBTQ+ and Women. Just being a feminist out loud (or assumed that you're one) can get you killed in South Korea.
I'm just assuming though. They could have considered it and just decided not to.
still not an excuse. it's acting. just as much as it is a man pretending to be a trans women, they could have gotten a women to pretend she was enlisted in the army when she was younger.
@@yuvalne South korea isnt progressive wit hvery very grave social issues, hell sexism is , oh god. and queer, there are just probably reasonable no open trans actors in the industry
@yuvalne The actor is very famous and has already been removed from his next project. I guarantee you, if a woman had been in the role, we would have never heard from her again. Western pov simply does not apply in other cultures a lot of the time.
Korean BL dramas aren't filmed by the Korean entertainment industry because they don't support gay people. Netflix is investing in the K-entertainment, not making their own stuff, just in Korean. I agree in every way, except when stepping in and trying to tell another culture what their opinion should be.
@@yuvalne And that would make sense how? She's not meant to be just some random nobody that did military training like everyone else she used to be a successful professional soldier by trade.
I'm curious to see your opinions on this. My current stance is, while it would be better to have a trans actor, given that wasn't possible, a cis actor playing good representation is better than no representation. Additionally, I think it's better for her to be played by a cis man than cis woman given that a big part of her story is not passing and being seen as a man. I'm willing to have my viewpoints challenged though.
As Vera explains, you can cast a cis woman in the role and still have her story be having difficulty passing as a woman...
if you want to have a non passing trans woman and you can't use a trans woman as an actor: boymode a cis woman. It is not that difficult
The fact that nowadays even cis women are being “transvestigated” and “accused of being trans” is proof that they could have just casted a cis woman and still made her character about her difficulty passing.
Also, not passing has so many layers. It’s not just about face shape or facial hair. There is SO much nuance and tiny details that are not even physical, but about which clothes one wears, how one does their hair, body language, confidence, how one holds themselves.
Passing is complex and cannot just be boiled down to facial features.
@@butterflypooo "Transvestigating" has a much longer history than one might think, I saw a video where it talked about the fact that one of the first k-pop stars in the 90's had her career ruined by transvestigators even after she showed childhood photos. They could have definitely chosen a cis woman like in Money Heist (even though that casting decision baffles me to this day).
i disagree with the last part. we've had productions even outside the US where women played pre-transition trans women. this could have been done here as well.
I think it's important that we keep talking about a. acknowledging when trans rep is sympathetic and seems to be genuinely well-meaning, but b. recognize when it's still not perfect (e.g. with casting) -- and that neither a. nor b. eliminates the other. I tend to feel like sympathetic writing with problematic casting is better than _no_ representation or hostile representation, but not something we should accept as a final state.
(And that's part of what I like about your videos here. Even if it's frustrating that we all, and you actually putting these thoughts to video in particular, have to spend _so_ much time and effort being even-handed in an attempt to head off accusations of framing things in absolute terms.)
So I’m a kdrama fan. I was a little worried when this casting was announced because this actor normally plays villians. I thought it was some kinda trick that he was going to play a criminal that needed to dress up in drag for some reason when I saw the trailer. But when I heard no this is supposed to be a trans character. I squirmed a little bit. I have not always been impressed by how Korea has portrayed trans people. But I thought the performance was good. I do think that with discrimination laws being where they are in Korea. I’m not surprised that the director couldn’t find a Korean trans actor but consider this show is a global hit would it have been the worse thing to look outside of Korea for this role. You are right Korea has had cis women play trans roles so they could have done it so that’s entirely fair.
Yes!!!! Because I’m old enough to remember the bull crap of ugly Betty and Alex the trans character… even the verbiage they used was horrible compared to now. 😊
A cis women, playing the role of a PRE-transition woman, who had to do 2 years of MILITARY obligations (because this is obligatory for men) and became high graded. But became outcast due to coming out as trans and need money to transition in a country where coming out as trans is a social s/icide. In Skorea there is only 3 open trans actors and they all retired, some unalived themselves and other left the country for ever.
Do you see how having a cis woman actress would have been ridiculous ?
I really disagree with this take. I wouldn't trust a cis woman any more than a cis man to play a trans woman. But I don't think we should be throwing any judgement on the gender identity of an actor who is playing another gender. I just think about the amount of time i spent confused about where i belonged. I don't think I will ever be free of that trauma. I'll never stop being angry at what happened to Isabel Fall and I'll never forgive the people who did that to her. Playing with ones own gender through art has to be seen as untouchable in most ways.
I'm sorry but I disagree with your point, feels like you're speaking out of insecurity and don't have any objective reason as to why a cis man could never play a trans woman under any circumstances. Only thing it inherently proves is that transfemmes come from amab people and not every trans person perfectly passes. Everything else you've said was just you projecting. 99% of the people watching the show will never go looking into the credits trying to figure out if said actor is actually trans in real life. Someone pretending they're someone else who they're not is called acting. I just don't buy it, of course authentic casting would be ideal but if that's not possible either is fine.
I totally get your point, just want to mention the actresses (who are also the only 3 people that show up when you search skorean trans actress) all havent acted in around 15 years and work mainly as models or influencers now, they talked about how awful discrimination was, im not that tuned into the tv/movie side of korean media but in the music side i know of mrshll (r&b) and holland (kpop), the later has struggled a lot to get his music released since no company wants to give him a chance, check them out! im not the most knowledgeable about lgbtq community in s. korea but i recommend watching these videos: kdramas and lgbt representation by pastellyn and the tragic story of the first openly gay celebrity in korea by kookielit, i would also like to know the name of the show at 18:00
Just a little correction, Lee Si-yeon at 10:22 is not the trans actress Lee Si-yeon. She is a cis musician who happens to have the same name. Drama Wiki and Namu Wiki have the correct photos of the actress.
Thank you for the video! I was looking forward to this. As a middle eastern, I appreciate that you addressed the nuances of how representation doesn't go in tandem in every country, and the intentions matter a lot more there than Hollywood currently, but also that it's important that the producers and Netflix should have known better.
Yeah a few folks pointed that out. Evidently Google has a history of mixing up the two.
I think it's important to recognise the merits and advancements we have made towards representation while still approaching it with a critical lens, pointing out we haven't reached its ideal status yet. While the issues with Koren society might not be controlled by the creators, they're still issues to be questioned and hopefully be dealt with. Just accepting it as "this is good inclusion nothing should be changed" would be a conformist detriment.
I don't think anyone was saying it's good without any need for change. Most people are saying that it's good enough for the state of the country as it is, and that hopefully it will become a first step to improvements later. I think a lot of ppl outside of Korea who don't really follow any Korean media/artists don't fully understand how bad bullying culture is in Korea. They just have a vague idea that the country is a bit behind or a bit conservative. It's the same place where a female rapper was dropped from her company bc she happened to be there when a man she didn't know punched a separate man she also didn't know (who happened to be her fan). A member of the biggest boy band in the world had kmedia writing 200 articles a day for the great sin of riding a foldable electric scooter at walking speed after one or two drinks. He had to apologize twice, got paraded for pictures in front of a police station, and k nets clamouring for him to be fired and even jailed. Because he rode a scooter at walking speed 😶 and that is how extremely popular celebs who fit every social expectation are treated. They don't get to be human. Imagine how an actor being publicly trans would be treated. From what I can tell, the creators tried to find someone but couldn't. I'm glad they didn't give up on this character's story bc it's so important to have portrayals showing trans people as ordinary humans even if it can't be some imaginary perfect representation we picture in our heads.
The ideal place is one where trans people can play any role and no one bats an eye. Trans, cis, mermaid, princess, doctor.
@@AnonUnlimited Let's also mention that the guy who plays Thanos was excluded from all promo material because he's a social pariah in Korea for being caught doing Mary Jane ( put it like this to avoid TH-cam suppression) ALMOST NINE YEARS AGO. So yeah, the South Korean Internet is insane, and another transfem TH-camr pointed out that while it would have been best for a trans actor to play the character, it could have been at the cost of their safety.
Hopefully even with this glaring issue I hope that even this tiny nugget of representation can bring out conversations in South Korea.
No, shltting on very good representation just because it's not perfect is extremely ungrateful and whiney.
@anitaremenarova6662 well, "shitting" is a bold word. Something can be good representation and still have issues that people can point out and discuss. Im not trans myself, Im going to listen a lot more to trans creators even if I liked the character, and I dont think its ungrateful to have a discussion about this. People here have brought up good points for and against that wouldn't have been made if the discussion hadn't been brought up at all.
So you would rather a trans women in south Korea put herself in harms way by outing herself in the public eye?
They casted a trans women to do the English dub.
Also casting a cis women would be more detrimental because it gives the notion in the public eye if you don't pass you aren't valid.
The fact that I as a trans women didn't know the actor was cis until I looked it up says a lot about the acting.
I understand where you're coming from and I widely agree with everything you had to say. However, I also thought that in this case the writing and performance did outshine the casting, like I feel like if I had watched the show without knowing about that casting decision going in I wouldn't have clocked her character as being played by a cis man. It absolutely would have been preferable if an actual trans actress or a cis woman was cast in her role, but it's still very well done given that big glaring mistake made.
17:25 Not me watching a reactor to RWBY get to a scene featuring a group of female characters, one of whom is transgender, and they point to one of them with the mouse and say "and this guy- I think this is a guy, right?-" and it's _not_ the trans woman in the scene. The average person _cannot tell_ at a glance lmao.
Granted that's a slightly different issue given it's animation but even so it stuck out to me.
The way he says he could not find any out trans actresses made me think he had actually auditioned some who had said they were not comfortable playing a trans character.
a few thoughts:
in my viewing, it seemed that being a pre-op, less passing trans person was a major part of where hyun-ju's character was at in her story. i can see how this would have limited casting choices severely, given that the beauty standards in korea are so intense that the few working trans actresses are very passing, and more masculine looking cis woman actresses are much rarer. this is not a defense of the casting, but given the story limitations, i thought the actor did a very good job with a difficult situation. i'm korean and i've spent a lot of time in korea and i do think that this was a huge step forward for the industry there even it wasn't perfect.
secondly, i understand that casting cis actors in trans roles is problematic due to the rampant discrimination in the casting process that trans actors have faced historically and to this day. i just hope that one day we can reach a point where actors can freely play roles that don't necessarily align with their backgrounds or identities. taking roles from marginalized actors is a huge problem, but i also think that stretching one's own experience to authentically and genuinely represent another can be one of the most beautiful and empathetic things about the craft of acting and film storytelling in general. i hope that one day we reach a point of acceptance to where trans people can play cis roles and vice versa, with the same going for gay and straight actors and roles, or any other aspect of positionality.
i am all for calling out where we can still improve in terms of how we address representation in media. squid game 2 shows that we still have a long way to go, especially in places like south korea. it still sucks that current societal politics can often distract from great storytelling, when a singular aspect of the execution is flawed. to be clear, this is a criticism of where we are societally and not of this video!
@@bennett4789 Pre-op / not passing / looks like a man are not the same things. Yes, you can be pre-op and pass, or not pass even though you tecnically look cis. It's complicated. We should also question why the persumably all cis writers decided to write the trans character to not pass, and why.
@ i didn't say they were the same thing, i meant that the character was written to be pre-op AND less passing. as to why the character was written this way, it's because both of those qualities were central aspects to the financial motivation of the character, which is a throughline for most of the characters in the show. we can question if this was a good decision or not representationally but the reasoning is clear.
@@bennett4789 Trans people that pass still have to motivation to seek funding for gender affirming care. Because the point of is not (just) to pass to cis people.
The problem isn't cis people playing trans characters, the problem is men playing trans characters. I'd have just as much of a problem with a trans man playing this character as I do with this
@SophieRoseLive Yep, ultimately the problem is men playing women. We don't do that for any other women, why do we do it for trans women.
Its difficult because we're comparing western film and tv to the east where trans representation is non existent. Yes, if a western studio tried this with western actors, there would rightly be backlash, but for Korea, this is huge. The character was fucking badass and never felt like a stereotype.
I'm more concerned at the inclusion of a man who solicited sex from a minor (Number 100)
I think after the Kit/hearstopper debacle, people have realised there's issues with the "only lgbt and play lgbt" harm discourse. The discourse was meant to promote diverse casting but spiralled into toxic cancel culture. Glad people have learned to back off a bit and consider nuance.
Your argument about meta-framing is really thought-provoking and well articulated. Thanks for sharing your perspective and broadining my understanding!
Is there really no validity to cast an AMAB person when the character is AMAB, early in her transition? It’s not about making trans women out to really be men, this is surely just the reality of many trans women?
Yes, there's never validity in casting a man to play a woman. You think trans women are men
I think there's two conversations going on here - validity vs harm. If all else were equal, and there wasn't a cultural war going on with trans people as the target, then there could definitely be a discussion around casting AMAB people (including cis actors) and what circumstances it would be appropriate/inappropriate under to cast them in transitioning roles etc. However, given that there IS a cultural war going on right now and it often revolves around transness, I think we have to put discussions about validity/propriety aside and first consider the harm done by making such casting choices.
@@peggy7744 I don't think there's really any way to win here, people who hate minorities will always find a way so even casting a cis woman wouldn't stop them. I believe the show was anything but harmful in representing trans women, in fact it was the best representation I've seen maybe ever.
Frankly I think not just graciously accepting the gesture of including us front and center in their class war story in a country where that’s a big deal is actually more harmful to the cultural narrative surrounding us than the casting.
Is it imperfect? Absolutely, but people already view us as hysterical and unappeasable, so the backlash to this well meaning gesture is a big optical misstep.
Yeah I should just graciously accept being called a man. Maybe I should just graciously accept the people trying to kill me too?
It's not just optical, it is genuinely ungrateful to respond like that to very good representation.
@ the real big failure is to cover this topic without mentioning the real person she’s clearly based on Byun-Hee-Soo.
It’s literally a commentary on a particular trans activist, and for her part to be overshadowed with nitpicky bullshit is frustrating to see.
Plus the central premise of it not being ok to use a man for the character doesn’t land for me at all considering I identified with her and it reminded me of myself pre HRT.
I honestly hate the other end of depicting us via cis women more because most of us don’t look like that. I don’t think I would’ve seen myself in the character at all if she was played by a cis woman, but the actor they did choose nailed this general air of discomfort of knowing you don’t pass and presenting as she wants anyway contrasted with a competency that would typically make someone exude confidence.
I love the character, the actor did great, she’s very positively represented in the story without feeling like sanitized pandering, and lastly they really really didn’t need to do that for us and did anyway.
This discourse has big yelling at grandma even after she got your pronouns right cause she got you a boy fitting shirt for Christmas energy.
I take a more utilitarian stance on this - if they’d cast a trans woman, she could have died. S. Korea already does not treat their celebrities with any human decency, and that’s just the straight cis ones. Cyberbullying is so normalized in the Korean internet that it would be highly probable they’d harass the actress into suicide. It’s happened with several cishet women who smoked too much or gained too much weight or had the wrong boyfriend. Imagine that sheer vitriol but aimed at someone who is not famous, does not have any legal shield against harassment or discrimination, and can’t fight back because there is no chance public opinion would ever be on her side :(
@@maxwessel7786 Thank you for elaborating in such detail, I felt that CoG drawing a hard line about this was wrong before but now you've confirmed it for me. Speaking for an entire section of people as if they're a monolith is never good and this case isn't any different.
On a more lighthearted note, as a cis guy I also loved Hyun-ju in this season. She's my new favorite character and honestly can't think of any other piece of media where a trans character is not only represented well but also cooler, kinder and generally more likable than everyone else without being a Mary Sue.
i don’t know if this is a good point but they may not have wanted those trans actresses because they appear fully transitioned, it’s part of the girl in squid games’ story that she hasn’t been able to everything that she wants and has probably only been transitioning a few years? i think it makes more sense to hire a man if the appearance was important to the story, because it is a large part of that story…south korea is big on plastic surgery for women, especially if they are an actor, model, etc. so it may have been fairly easy for those trans actresses to get the surgeries they needed, where the girly in squid game does not have that situation
Under normal circumstances, I would expect that a trans character be played by a trans actor. But we are dealing with a Korean production and it's been stated repeatedly that it is nearly impossible to find a queer actor in Korea, let alone a trans one. Let's keep in mind that in the US, it wasn't that long ago that gay and trans roles would also have been played by straight actors. It was those positive portrays that helped move the needle on queer acceptance in media and in life. Instead of being critical over the casting, let's celebrate that they did such an amazing job with this portrayal. It was nuances and sympathetic and thoughtful. The actor did an amazing job and given how rare such positive portrays of trans characters there are in media, it's a credit to the show's creator that he did so well.
Didn't watch the video did you?
@@CouncilofGeeksdoesn't seem like it lol
I think it would be very difficult to find an out actress that is pre-transition or mid-transition.
The character’s drive in this season is to have money to medically transition. It wouldn’t make sense to have a fully medically transitioned actress.
Finding an actress in early transition in South Korea is extremely hard because in South Korea the in between process is usually sped up due to culture.
This is a step forward for South Korean culture because it is normalising an early transition trans femme character that LOOKS masculine and being accepted by western culture.
There needs to be nuance to this situation because it’s cross cultural. The message should be “western culture is more advanced on social issues which means we need to cast the correct actors for the correct characters but South Korea needs to continue to grow in the right direction. This is the right direction:…”
Did you not watch the whole video or...?
@ I did but the message was very much “this character needs to be casted with a passing actor or a cis woman” instead of working towards growth and nuance of a character that is in a society where the in between spectrum of gender is looked down upon.
I’ve watched your vids for years and usually there’s a lot of understanding and care even when it’s a rant video but this video is ranting that it needs to be as developed as western culture just because they have a worldwide audience to cater to.
If they had casted a cis woman or a medically transitioned trans femme, people would still complain that “it’s putting false expectations that trans women have to pass.” And then there’s the lore implications of “how does she pass if shes poor?”
I was really excited to hear ur opinion and I appreciate ur opinion but the delivery was heavy handed and didn’t take into account the nuance.
I'm not trying to argue but I'm honestly not sure that you did, since you appear to be assuming that casting either a transgender woman or a cis woman means the character would automatically be passing... which I specifically addressed.
@ I’m sorry but I did watch the video and I’m bit saddened that you don’t believe that I did. Sorry I criticized the delivery of your opinion but I’m just voicing my opinion too.
@ I think I’m going to step away from your channels for a bit. I’ll see you later in the year
On metacasting, before Die hard, Bruce Willis was know as a comedian actor. They couldn’t have his face in any marketing-material because of how scared they were of how they movie would be seen and the boxoffice. THEN after the movie came out and it was a hit and Willis proved himself Then and only then did his face show up on the posters.
If I were a casting director working in a country where discrimination against trans people is fully legal and a closeted trans actor auditioned for a role like this, you bet I'd be happy hand them the role. It'd probably look pretty bad to overseas viewers - especially without familiarity with the way we code queer to hide from violent bigots locally - but it would give that actor a potentially life-saving chance to express themself publicly.
To use a distinct but related example, as far as the public knew Wayne Brady was straight when he played a gay character on How I Met Your Mother, but a couple years ago he came out as pan. Was that queer character played by a straight actor or a queer actor? Mr. Brady did in fact know what it was like to be a man who's attracted to men when he played that character (whether casting was aware or not) but audiences had no way of receiving that meta-metanarrative message at the time, they just saw an apparently-straight guy playing a gay guy. I can't help but wonder if something similar is happening here.
Trans youtuber Philosophy Tube used to look very masculine back in the day, i was recommended her videos quite often but never had a time to check them until she came out as fully transitioned trans woman and i didn't see this coming at all. Another example of a trans woman i accidentally stumbled upon on youtube, she used to be even more masculine in fact hyper masculine, she had a body of typical male bodybuilder and as you might have guessed it, when she came out as a trans woman and start transitioning, her previous audience were in total shock, asking her to get well, pray for her etc
The point i trying to make, while your critics of the subject matter are valid and 100% on point, i had to check what actor was playing the role because i wasn't sure that the actor in question indeed isn't a trans woman in real life, because it is entirely realistic to look that masculine on early stages of transition, not to mention that not every trans person even starts transitioning ever
And i bet that the international audiences have no clue about the actor identity either, not all people are paying a lot of attention to korean cinema to know who's trans and who's cis
I really liked her character but I hope this is just the beginning and future projects will use trans actors!
Edit: my devil’s advocate take is I did not see her character as a man at all, and I don’t think that’s inherently what everyone will see. Not knowing about the actor I assumed she was a trans woman the whole time until I learned otherwise. Maybe it’s because I’m also trans though
It's been absolutely incredible to see the casting of trans people as trans characters over the last few years. That by and large it's not the issue it used to be, where firstly there's very little trans representation at all, and the little representation there is is by cis actors.
It was so tiring to see these cis actors nominated for all the awards and told they're so brave for their acting.
I'm so relieved that this is now increasingly isolated incidents instead of the norm. It's sad to see the same old tired arguments are being dug out again. I thought we were past that.
As a British trans woman, i Used to only agree with this stance about 70%. But now, i pretty much 99% agree, but that 1 would have to be extremely exceptional.
Why?
The Uk has a lond and storied history of casting cis men to play cis women and cis women to play cis men and people just accepting the characters as their stated gender. Often times in comedic roles, such as the Panto tradition, where the lead male character (such as peter pan) would be played by a woman and a main supporting female character, the pantomime dame, is played by a man, and characters such as Edna Everage, and Lily Savage, and the duo of Hinge and Bracket, where the actors are known to be men but the characters are accepted to be female. But the practice also has a dramatic tradition stretching back to Shakespeare.
But, in the last decade we have seen the unholy alliance of the US far right christians and british terfs that has eroded that with the backlash against things such as Drag Queen Storytime, which absolutely grew out of the panto dame tradition.
Thus now, i am of the firm opinion that unless there is a VERY VERY GOOD narative reason to cast cis man as a trans character, then it is not acceptable. The current real, legeslative harm being done to trans people means it can't be any other way.
And this show does have said very good narrative reason, she used to be a professional soldier by trade.
If the character were played by any of the 3 SK Trans actors you showed, the storyline for this character wouldn’t make any sense. Her entire motivation is to get all of the surgeries she needs to look and feel more like the woman she is, and live a peaceful new life. The 3 actresses you showed are giving Blair White (in appearance) and they wouldn’t be clocked all that often, if at all. Those actresses could not fit this role, as they have clearly already had many surgeries, procedures, and been on hormones. What would be the motivation for a trans woman who already “passes” as a woman and doesn’t need a bunch of expensive surgeries, etc?
I like to see the best actor get any role. This actor did a really great job with this character.
Apologies if my purpose wasn't clear, but I wasn't citing the three trans women as actual candidates for the role. My point was "if I can find three in five minutes on Google, I'd think somebody actually in the industry over there could find more than that." But I also did address all the passing stuff, if you stuck with the whole video.
@@CouncilofGeeks2 of those three are retired and the third one might be as well
Interesting points! As a cis person, my first exposure to the concept of trans people was the movie Transamerica, which cast a cis woman as a trans woman. I'm sure the movie has aged poorly, and the casting choice is certainly no longer appropriate, but at the time, as a young adult who had no idea what a trans person was, it was SO powerful to see a person that my ignorant young eyes very effortlessly recognised as a woman, and journeying with her as she struggled to be recognised as such by the world around her. So I can very much see how casting the opposite way could have the opposite impact.
There may be less cis actors taking trans roles because, as transness is seen as more common, some cis people might be afraid of being seen as one of "them queers"
Why would they cast a ciswoman when the character is early transition? A ciswomen would be the "final version."
If they cast a ciswoman, they would need to "masculinize" the character - which is far more problematic.
And there are no 3 trans actresses in South Korea- one is a singer (Harisu) and the other two are more like models - Choi Han Bit and Lee Si-yeon. Not to mention about 50 years old.
You changed my mind on this when I watched your initial vid on the topic, though several yrs after you released it. I totally understand and appreciate your perspective as a cis woman. I only recently heard the actor was cis so I was looking forward to your opinions on the storyline/writing itself, which I'm glad you thought was solid.
But yeah. This key word is 'inherently', which I'm glad you're putting emphasis on and breaking down for us. Intentions unfortunately don't matter when a choice you make consolidates harmful stereotypes. Especially in this political climate.
I really appreciate how well you explain your thoughts. Before I'd watched your initial piece on this topic, I'd have made plenty of excuses too. Trans and gay character castings are in totally different ballparks, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain why.
But obviously there are lots of cultural differences, so I'm glad you're not being overly harsh on the writer/actor here, too.
13:40 the thing is that this character isn't just clockable to the audience. In the text characters are disturbed by her physical masculinity. I have a feeling they needed the actor to be clockable because they specifically wrote the character to be clockable and that's part of how we understand her pain. The director may have been saying that there weren't any trans women in acting who had these masculine traits. It still makes me uncomfortable but given the way the character is written I don't think any of the actors you showed would've been good picks because... Well, they look too passing. I'm not necessarily trying to defend it but it feels a little more complicated... I dunno. I'll keep watching now to see if you address this at all.
18:39 ok awesome you did kind of address my point. And you made some good arguments. I don't think the lip ring girl would've been a good pick for this character but I completely understand your point (also I love that character, that is my favourite kind of androgyny... Rip). I agree completely with not casting cis men as trans women especially now you've pointed out so many ways that would've been better to achieve a clockable character. Thanks! ^^
Well, to be clear I wasn't citing them as actual candidates for the part (I don't know how good their acting chops are, among other things). My point was more "if I can find 3 in five minutes, you couldn't find more than that to pull from?"
@@CouncilofGeeksHoly shit you replied quickly. I didn't think you'd reply at all. Thank you! I kept watching and I've edited my comment because you do cover my concern and do it pretty well. As for my comment regarding those actors specifically I suppose I was somewhat extrapolating, trying to make the point that if the only out trans women in South Korea are this passing that they wouldn't have brought the necessary clockability to the character. But you addressed that lol, give them prosthetics. Thanks for making a thorough video on this topic. I think most think that if there's just a trans character at all we need to sit down and shut up and be grateful because most people don't even really know what a trans person is... But like, that's kinda why doing it right is so dang important so thanks for pointing that out, say it louder for the people in the back lol
@@CouncilofGeeksin 5 more minutes you could have worked out that they all had former careers not in acting, and all had filmographies that died in the early 2010s, shortly after open transitioning. In 10 minutes we've reduced the search back to 0 openly trans actors, it feels disingenuous to use their existence as a point against the casting, even if I don't 100% agree with the choice either.
That's very honestly a fair critique, though it doesn't negate my overall point that even if trans performers weren't an option casting a cis man instead of a cis woman is still a problem.
Sounds like it's a problem with the text then
I’m technically NB, but I also present as close to a Cis man as as an NB can, so my opinion doesn’t come from inside, but maybe slightly less outside? Anyways I get your points and agree that trans women SHOULD be played be trans women, but if a cis man, comes in and plays her well and respectfully, I’m not a fan, but don’t think it’s inexcusable, just my personal opinion, no hate meant
As a longtime K-drama fan who engages in and with conversations with the primary audience they're aimed at (Koreans), casting 100% has a huge influence on the perception of a character to a Korean audience. So I understand why you'd draw the hard line and I respect it.
I've seen once where a trans man was cast to play a trans woman character...still not sure how I feel about that. Technically that was hiring a trans actor but it feels like invalidating both the actor and the character's identity?
Literally the worst way they could have gone about it
As I listen to you, I’d really love to hear your take on the brilliant, devastating film, “Boys Don’t Cry.” Hilary Swank did a PHENOMENAL job playing a trans man, based upon a real life person. It’s one of the most powerful films I’ve ever seen in my lifetime. No one could have done a better job. Another actress in that film is Chloe Sevigny (one of my favorite actresses of my generation). She plays a trans woman in a British TV series from some years ago, “Hit & Miss.” She did such a damn great job. She also played a butch lesbian in the HBO film, “If These Walls Could Talk: 2.” Chloe is a beautiful woman with quite strong features. She is not “dainty” and she has a strikingly beautiful face that can be rather androgynous. I am curious to know your thoughts.
Absolutely love that film! She did such an amazing job. A trans friend of mine asked me to watch it with him and her performance really struck a chord with his own struggles. He didn’t have any issues at all with a cis actress playing a trans man, he was more impressed by the nuanced acting and storytelling for a film that came out in the 90’s.
What authority do you have over the south korean culture?
The series was made in korea for koreans it doesn't have to adhere to your American standards. It doesn't matter if they knew it would be watched all over the world. The story is set in korea so it would completely put one out of the story if they modelt it after western standards and ideals.
Maybe this was the most realistic representation you would get in korea. You don't have to like it but if the story is supposed to feel real you have to stay real, not use ideals that are unrealistic in the current culture.
Also what exactly is so harmful?
You said 50 times this and that is so harmful but you never explain a thing about what exactly is so harmful. In what way does it harm people?
Trans women in South Korea are not men. Just like trans women in the USA or Europe aren't men. It's not a cultural thing.
@@valkeakirahvisure they are 😂😂😂😂
전적으로 동의합니다 ㅇㅇㅇ
Is it possible that the performer playing this character may be trans but not out? I remember the backlash at not-yet-identified-as-any-sexual-orientation Kit Connor playing a bisexual character in Heartstopper, and that backlash basically forced him out of the closet before he was ready to come out.
Possible? Yes. But it's unprovable unless he comes out, and even that wouldn't resolve the issue in this specific case because at the time of the release he is known to be and perceived as a cis man. Thus the inherent harm that comes with that is the reality, even if things change later.
Possible. It would still be better to cast a stealth trans woman (i.e. they pass woman and are not public about being trans.) If there are non-transitioning trans actors available, surely there's some post-transition ones too.
I want to start by saying that I am not really in disagreement with the points made here. But there is something that came to mind that I think may be worth considering. I'm not sure that it is a strong enough reason to ignore the metaframing issue, but anyway. With there being a lot of cultures where being out as trans might be career ending or otherwise harmful, would it perhaps be an oversight to universally condemn the use of actors that were amab in trans femme roles and vice versa? It rings potentially similar to times when assumed straight actors have been pressured to out themselves publicly for taking on queer roles. There may be cases where an actor is closeted or known only to some involved in the production as trans, but present publicly as cis. I'm not sure where I fall on whether this is worth concern, and as an American I'm not sure I have the understanding to know if this is even all that relevant, but I just wonder.
Just because she appears in a single shot of your awesome video: Nicole Maines as Dreamer in Supergirl was, I think, the first trans character and trans actress I've seen on TV/ in film, and I love the fact that this version of Dreamer made it to the comics, while (I think) Nicole writes Dreamer in the comics, which I love too. :)
Well, there was a movie where Scarlett Johansson (sp?) was set to play a trans woman. After social media raged about authentic representation, she backed out and so did the investors. It never got off the ground. Trans activists shoot their allies and their movement in the foot very often. I hate the "take what you can get and like it" position, but one can do more harm then good with respect to trans visibility sometimes.
The point you made about casting for a trans character to be "clockable" really helped me identify a jarring moment for me. The Audio Description introduced the character as a "trans woman" as soon as she opens her mouth i.e. when we as the audience are introduced to her. The role of AD is to communicate visual information, so this was puzzling to me. Especially as the character herself talks about being trans, and other characters question her gender almost immediately. So I totally agree that part of the (flawed) rationale for casting a cis man is to immediately communicate the character's otherness to the audience. It's very much cis-male privilege to assume that a cis woman couldn't play a trans woman, as they all know that female actors are lesser overall.
One casting that always springs to my mind is in the 2007 drama Dirty Sexy Money, where actual trans woman Candis Cayne was cast as a trans woman character...and in the first episode they digitally lowered her voice to make sure people could tell she was trans. Thankfully they stopped for the rest of the show after the point was made, but that got quite a bit of buzz for how wrong it was. And then they killed her off in the second season anyway.
It was great listening to you talk about this topic, when I saw your review I was looking forward to this video. You helped me process some of the conflict I had about the issue.
Now that you mentioned Emilia Perez I’m DYING to hear you talk about it. I’m Mexican and we’re all up in arms about some harmful topics that were used, especially since the director and casting didn’t even TRY to make their research.
Thank you, this was so helpful! As a cis woman, the idea of casting cis women seemed cringey to me because it might perpetuate the idea that passing is the only way to be a trans woman. I didn't consider a solution as simple as casting a masculine presenting cis woman, or the use of prosthetics. There really isn't an excuse for this any more.
@@thisisjeannie4723 Do you also find it cringey to cast women to play any other women in media? Do you think it perpetuates stereotypes that women need to look like this actor to be a woman? Or does this somehow only apply to trans women, and why?
I'm gonna be real, that's still transphobic, even after your realization. Why is a woman looking like a woman cringy to you?
Very well said, yes i love the character Hyun-ju, she was really well written she's my favorite this season. And i acknowledge South Korea is not there yet with queer acceptance so I understand why they thought it would be fine casting a man. But yeah they should have just found a really tall cis woman to play her or something. Great character, pretty good representation BUT it does have this one major flaw. Hopefully from here with the conversation being had trans representation there and everywhere will become better.
0:35 "Somethings look the same some things...uh, not so much."
Oh did you do something with your hair, I hadn't noticed. Lol.
Thank you for this wonderful videos, I really learnt a lot from you.
I am a cis woman and I am pansexual, I am from quite a conservative country India. I have always watched/searched for more intersectional progressive stories in my own country's media it is slowly improving in recent years by indie productions but there are quite a few mainstream ones as well.
I fully believe that lgbt roles should be played by lgbt actors but there can be few exceptions only if they have a extremely valid reason. It depends on a lot of interpersonal, political, cultural, sociopolitical reasons and more I assume. Mostly I was ok with cis/straight actors playing lgbt roles in the past years as it was very difficult and dangerous to be out and open and even if there was they were never considered by production companies. But in these years and moving forward we can't and shouldn't do that anymore and must actively do better continuously.
In my country media as far as I am aware collecting my limited knowledge from my childhood till now, there have been many trans women stories that are always played by cis men actors in the past, some of those movies are great and important and help with trans visibility and acceptance/normalization and my memory could be wrong and I don't know well how things are in this current year. But there was this one bollywood movie sorry I don't remember the name but its a romcom romance between a cis man and a trans woman where the trans woman character is played by a cis woman actor so far this movie is the one that came to my mind immediately. Again I could be wrong and there might be many other examples as well. There are a few great media that portrays trans women stories/characters played by actual transgender women but those rarely get big budget or recognition or praise compared to when a well established cis male hero takes on a transgender woman's role.
Personally I saw similar trans narratives mostly portrayed in my media, my grandma is a big supporter of trans people she respects them so much and she doesn't know about gay people as trans people are a lot more visible and scrutinized here and its becuz of her I have known trans people from a very young age and that helped me to their presence, as I grew up I began educating myself on intersectional issues. My grandma is also a very religious person and there are lot of gods/goddesses who are queer/gender fluid in our religious mythology. Most of my country's backward conservative ideologies comes from our history of british colonialism. We r changing but not nearly fast enough.
Though there are many differences between different country's culture and sociopolitical climate it shouldn't stop us from wanting better authentic representation in media and also a better life in general. I mostly tend to look towards independent productions made by and for queer people/audiences as mainstream has failed us over and over again and might take a long time to give us what we deserve of course there might be some exceptions that I am not aware of. But u r right that Squid game is a global success and they should have tried harder. This thought just came to me when u mentioned the harms of having a cis man play a trans woman as it comes across as a man pretending to be a woman and I just went oh right yeah once they take off their wig/makeup/costume/come out of character they are a man but an actual transwoman can't do all that, casting a cis woman might be somewhat better as it negates that factor. I am sorry if this thought is wrong, it just suddenly hit me.
I have come to the conclusion that just because someone has good intentions and manage to give us good rep doesn't mean they or others can't do better or above criticism. So many instances have we seen cis creators/actors get praises and accolades for portraying queer roles and that has to change both in front of and behind the camera, we need more diverse looking people and voices. Oh I also agree that trans men/women should not be restricted to if they are "passing as cis" as their main storyline alone, now I am not going to be too hard on creators who actually care and do the proper adequate research and work with queer people and try their very best to contribute meaningfully to queer media representation but have other forces working against them, but this doesn't apply to bigger/popular/mainstream productions.
I really love ur videos and value ur opinions so much. I have a lot of respect for u. Thank you and sorry if I made any mistakes or had any unintentionally bad takes I am always learning and listening to voices like yours. Thank you.
10:20 Lee Siyeon is a cis female kpop idol lol
there is an actress named Lee Siyeon born in 1980 who is a trans woman
@ace.of.space. OK, they just used the wrong picture then
Yeah somebody else noted that Google has a history of mixing the two of them up, and unfortunately I can't do much about it as the editing tools on an uploaded video are extremely limited.
A couple thoughts popped into my head about casting choices and where they fell on the spectrum of things.
While this is in the category of non straight instead of non cis, I remember Brooklyn 99 did cast a gay man for a recurring role as a gay character, but they had to drop out due to scheduling conflicts, so they ended up casting a straight guy. I don't remember if that made waves or anything but if it didn't, I imagine it's because there's more wiggle room when you are casting more than one non straight or non cis character. In Brooklyn 99, I'm guessing it didn't make waves because they already had 1-2 other main to recurring characters that were not straight and performed by non straight performers.
I also thought of how much the person playing Doctor Barbie stole every scene she was in, despite there being so many comedic performances in the Barbie movie. I hope I get to see that actress in more media.
Lastly, I was thinking of David Ducaveny (sp?) in Twin Peaks. I largely stopped watching the show a couple of episodes into season two but I at least watched a couple of scenes David's character was in. I enjoyed the performance, so I wonder if this falls in a category similar to Squid Games 2: good performance+writing but would have been nice to go a different direction on casting. For my two cents, my mind didn't immediately go to cis man as trans femme = men pretend to be women because my experience of cis women playing trans women has been one-off characters that show up on sitcoms to play "gotcha!" to male sitcom leads. The messaging I got is that you have to pass very well to be validated as female but you'll always be a punchline for straight people. Cis guys in trans femme roles often got more character arcs when I saw them in media and existed outside of being confused boner punchlines. I'm not arguing one portrayal is better than the other, just noting the different ways it sucked in my media experience in the 80s/90s/00s. 🤔
I loved how this video made me think about how casting affects how things are perceived. When I saw who they cast in squid game 2 the thought of casting a cis female actor for the part crossed my mind, but I wasn't sure how that would be received... specially in south korea. I'm glad to see that my thought process was going in a nice direction
Yeah, "passing" is so nebulous anyway, as you kinda then covered. You look plenty similar to plenty of women and other various identities, there are super buff and manly cis women and super cute feminine cis men. The spectrum is generally discussed as a single dimension between binary genders, but seems to me more like at least 4 dimensions of various factors, let's move the discussion to gender spacetime coordinates! Excellent video with some excellent points.
If we are going to argue about if people pass or are not how they claim to identify, let's point out how few rich people pass for human, both visibly and behaviorally, and are not convincing us regardless how vocally they identify as human.
I usually don’t comment but this one I had to write..Thank you so much for such informative video! I watched squid game 2 and liked the trans character and thought when I saw the critics that was against the actor that it was about ”just hating just because he wasn’t trans”. I myself is a cis-woman and I try to be an ally and was ready to defend the casting with the point that it is sometimes not possible. But when you brought up the point that it would be better for a cis-woman to play the role I finally understood what you mean and why it is so important. Thank you so much, you taught me a really valuable lesson!
As a fan of Squid Game (both seasons), I *really* appreciate you sharing this perspective and analysis. While I did love Hyun-Ju's character and even enjoyed Park Sung-hoon's performance, I hear everything you're saying about why the casting is indefensible.
The fight for a *world* where trans people can live freely (and audition for K-dramas in DROVES) continues...
i'm glad that at least the writing and acting are good, hope we see better representation going forward
If at one point trans actors get cast a lot in cis roles I won't be as pissed at cis people playing trans roles.
Thanks for this video. I initially thought this casting was okay and I even defended it a little bit simply because the story was about a trans woman who doesn't pass trying to get the funds to pay for surgery, but after you showed that hilarious girl on Twitter trolling homophobes and pointed out that regardless of intent or narrative it still is quite literally a man on a screen pretending to be a woman it really clicked for me and now I understand. Thank you!!
I will always find it funny that pre (ftm) transition I looked like a transwoman and was often mistaken for such. Great video as always ❤
15:07 That’s why I was surprised to see that one video of yours were you addressed how you don’t feminize your voice.
16:43 holy shit, transvestigation uno reverse card, I'm dying
Gracias por explicarlo. Nunca lo había pensado de ese modo. Tienes toda la razón
About the only real case I could see an argument, and it's debatable, is if the character hasn't transitioned yet, likely as a coming out kind of story. I don't imagine there are many trans actors who would fit the bill, but I am obviously not certain of that. And even then it might still be problematic, I'd have to think about it longer than I have.
I've watched shows where trans actors played a character both pre- and post-transition, and there are also cases (that i've haven't watched) where a cis woman played both. it's not an excuse.
@yuvalne all righty then, glad to know there is already an example. 👍
Thank you for making this video! PS I really enjoyed your full Squid Games 2 review too; damn near broke my fingers rushing to click on it upon release 😂 you have the patience of a saint dealing with so many comments here that *clearly did not watch the video*, but those of us who did appreciate you!! 🫶🏾
They did perfectly fine with what they had. If you want them to have a better chance then you want Korea to reform. That's not a Kollywood process, and this production literally went out of their way to promote that very process.
This!
But they DID have cis women actresses who couldve played that part. She even pointed out an actress within squid game 2 who had more "masc" features and could have played a non passing trans woman.
@rockabillymuffin They also had cis men to play the part. Guess what?
@@rockabillymuffin She could play a trans woman, she couldn't however play one with the backstory of being a professional special forces soldier and being ostracized from most people during the games. They would have to rewrite the entire character and water it down in the process.
Good points. Wasn’t sure where this was going and I was pleasantly surprised.
I did not agree with this when I started this video (and I’m still not 100% sure that I do) but you are making a damn good argument for it.
Past video v. Present video: hair game level up x1000 👌
Something I thought with this particular one is that the character in question doesn’t look particularly masculine to me. I don’t know that I would have necessarily realised they were supposed to be transgender if I didn’t know ahead of time and was looking for it. But I’m not actively looking for this sort of thing. (I haven’t watched it yet, I’m referring to clips and stills of the character, and this is not me saying it’s ok).
lovely and nuanced take. representation is important and casting should take that into account. Trans actors should absolutely be the first ones considered for trans roles. and if they aren't you need to think long and hard about you're saying by not soing so. Especially if you are telling a story on being trans. Where it gets tricky though is there are many places in the world where some identies are illegal or heavily discriminated against. Many well-meaning fans force actors to out themselves in order to do their jobs. Squid Game is huge, I don't blame any trans actor for maybe not wanting a spotlight on themselves when so much of the world is pushing to call them mentally ill pedophiles.
You should check the secret of the river. It’s an actually good Mexican media (unlike Emilia Perez) with a main trans character that’s played by a trans woman as an adult, and a cis girl as a kid.
I personally am not against Cis people being cast or performing trans characters, however, I think considering trans roles are so few and far between productions should try their best to cast trans actors as trans characters.
If for example a show had 3-5 trans characters one of them being cis wouldn't be as much of an issue and to me personally I wouldn't have any issue with it so long as the representation was good. However, in the current climate I especially hope that trans actors are cast more frequently as trans characters such that it becomes the default
The comments are so informative! So many other viewpoints, about why this casting choice might have been made. It's still sad. But maybe we can't judge from here. Interesting for sure.
I'll be interested to listen to this one. As a cis person I can accept the reasoning of the article in the thumbnail, and I do think the character was well-written, but my perspective doesn't really matter in conversations like this.
I wonder if the video will touch on the older woman (whose name escapes me) and her ignorant comments; the comments could be seen as a realistic depiction of what someone of her generation, especially in somewhere like South Korea, might say, but they could also be seen as the show trying to have their cake and eat it too by making anti-trans jokes but acknowledging they're bad as a get out of jail free card.
I think that's a very good point, but also something most people wouldn't even know to think about. Glad to hear we are moving in a better direction mostly though, even if there still is some cutting of trans storylines going on right now.
As a actor, I seem to be conflicted on whether a performer needs to share the sexual or racial characteristics of the role they are playing. I have always thought it ridiculous that Warner Oland played Charlie Chan in the movies, but somehow Denzel Washington as Macbeth doesn't disturb me.
There's an awful lot of context as to why those two examples don't equivocate. The short version is that casting performers of color in traditionally white roles just doesn't have the same connotations that doing the reverse does. There's a long history of blackface, yellowface, etc. where not only are white people frequently engaging in caricatures but also depriving actors of those races of work. It's the difference between equality (treat everybody exactly the same) and equity (making allowances for the fact things are not on an even playing field and accounting for that). Not to mention, in the specific example you give Washington may have been playing a traditionally white part but he wasn't playing as a white man.
@@CouncilofGeeks Good answer! Do the same criteria apply to, say, Rock Hudson playing a heterosexual versus a cis actor playing queer?
While I'm generally behind "queer actors for queer roles" I'm less militant about it when it comes to portrayal of sexuality (as opposed to gender identity). There isn't the same degree of inherent harm that there is with cis men playing trans women or cis women playing trans men. I'm still not a huge fan of it in most cases, but like I said I'm just not drawing a hard line there because I don't see the same harm involved.
If they didn't cast a trans character, they still made the decision to cast a cis man to this role, not a woman. Would they have cast thos man to play any other women in this series? No? Why is it ok to cast men as trans women, but all other women are played by people who are also women irl?
Context will always matter in Casting. Like if you make a movie about the Tuskegee airman, black actors are kinda core to the point of the story. And I think when it comes to LGBT characters there is a tainted history of hetero cis actors playing these roles and then being praised for valiantly taking on the identities of communities they don't belong too.
Shakespeare on the other hand (I work for a Shakespeare theatre btw) has been done about 1000 times over and at this point producing it with any sort of historical accuracy just doesn't happen because every director has there own take on how to pull out the themes without doing the same versions over and over again. Hamlet in Space is considered an 'interesting interpretation'. And if you are just doing one of many procedural dramas on TV (Like Law and Order or Criminal Minds) casting those openly for the best actor is a little more reasonable to cast blind to gender and race and JUST look for talent. But there are stories where the race and gender of the character DO matter. American History X needed a white male lead for example or the point would have been lost.
I think in Squid game's case they needed a Korean actor but I wonder if it occured to anyone to look OUTSIDE of Korea for one, especially with the Netflix money to explore casting Korean actors who don't necessarily currently live *in* Korea.
One thought that prickled my brain about the low number of out trans women actresses there... Of course this is barely even a theory, but it's enough for me to take pause critizising this. What if the actor portraying the trans character IS a trans woman who isn't out? As a way to try out feeling like being out without actually coming out?
It's a long shot I know, but the thought is enough for me to relate to the possibility. I'm an actress and a trans woman, and jobs have dried up since I came out.. and I know if I had this chance before I came out, I would have jumped on it..
your points are valid, but this is the kind of thing my mind can dwell on
A few folks have brought this up and 1) it’s unprovable either way, and 2) if the public perception of the person is as a cis man then whatever’s going on with him internally or happens down the line doesn’t negate the harm caused upon release.
@@CouncilofGeeks You're right, the damage gets done either way, it's just my bleeding heart that guilty about criticizing someone even if the reason for my guilt might not even be real.. it's just a thing to have in mind, not necessarily an end all be all deal-changer
Sexuality or identity of the actor shouldn't be taken into account for a character; if they be real good actors they'll channel a true representation by preparing and studying. Acting is one of the arts and the restricting of certain characters to just one type of actor based on demographic is reductive. Then no gay actors should be allowed to play straight people since with that logic they "wouldn't understand them", no trans actors should then play characters outside of trans ones. Homosexual actors have been a part of theater forever and no one is bothered by them playing regular cis characters. Just smells like rules for thee but not for me.
Did you actually watch the video? Because I go for a while on why trans roles in specific cause problems when played by cis actors. I tell you exactly what the problem with that is, and given that you don't even try to push back on it in your comment it seems likely you didn't watch far enough to hear it.
@@CouncilofGeeks Are trans actors not in the end just people with acting skills just like cis ones? Or are they some type of special super actor with the unique capacity to play their identity? This is nothing like casting a different race and offending with blackface. Restricting acting roles can only diminish the profession and the art. If you think Daniel Day Lewis couldn't play a hell of a transwoman character or someone like Tilda Swinton play a transman you're just looking as far as your nose can reach. I'd love to see a trans actor play a cis role and kill it to prove that acting is the channeling of an entirely different identity. Where's the skill in playing what you already are?
Ok, you're really proving my point that it feels like you didn't watch the video. Kindly prove me wrong and repeat to me what I said the inherent harm of this kind of casting is. Because so far, you've not even come close to addressing it.
@@CouncilofGeeks Kindly stop censoring my second comment then because it's easy to just let comments that agree with your points as if yours is somehow the only valid opinion lmao.
Will be very interested to hear about emilia perez at some stage. I've seen some clips and oh boy.... part of me wants to see it for the trainwreck but the other part doesn't want to support it due to its seemingly very regressive trans representation (not in casting but everything else)
I haven’t watched this season yet so it’s not a spoiler and I have no clue who dies but pretty sure bury your gays doesn’t apply here 😂😂😂
Thanks, Vera. 💖
finally. THANK YOU.
Totally unrelated, but: have you seen/heard from Jessie Earl? I think she lives in Los Angeles.
Mia Moore mentioned!
Oh dear, looking forward to the video on Emilia Pérez lol
I watched the squid game season 2 and I can tell right away the character was trans and later in the series the person reveals that they are in the process of reassignment surgery and that the person has a female upper body and a male lower body and the reason why they were in the squid game was to get the money to complete the operation