I spent 30 years consulting with schools on how to build effective learning environments, and seeing another video on learning/teaching/pedagogy made me anticipate disaster, but . . . hold on . . . this was awesome!!! So many teachers fail to realize the power of praise/reward because of Kohn's terrible book title (Punished by Rewards - but, if you get to the end of that book you find out that he disagrees with his title - sort of). You went further and described attributes of praise/reward that make it instructional. My colleagues and I used slightly different attributes, but the idea was the same. When praise is timely, specific, contingent, and sincere it becomes instructive. It's also helpful (necessary) for the relationship between instructor and student to be pleasing and based on trust and esteem. Importantly, praise works ONLY when the student perceives it as such. Intent doesn't matter. Just like sincerity, praise is only sincere when the student feels it as sincere. Your suggestions on how to insert reward into the natural feedback process is clever. Congrats on a great video. Cheers.
Yes, 100% agreed to all of this! We need to take our students seriously, no matter if they're children or adults. I'm really glad to hear a confirmation on this from outside the music pedagogy bubble. -Jakob
My experience is that I will struggle with a section, stop practicing, try it the next day, and sleep did the heavy lifting. So the idea of getting the reward in the very same session seems hard to conceptualize.
Eliminate all fear from your musical journey and you will be OK. Fear covers all area of a musicians life from choosing an instrument to performing to an audience. Fear,authority,comparing,not being accurate,winging it,playing music you don't want to are all human elements that carry fear which stops you in you tracks. There are many more. Most people will not recognise fear but thats life. Its a deep learning thing that not all want to delve in to.
Interesting video even for a non-musician (have a deep interest for the arts). Was into teatching. Was not the greatest teatcher but my students got top results. The key was probably lots of hard work to create a positive and stimulating learning environment. No need for punishment as we all get embarrased by failure...
Very nice video. I was wondering why i've been so happy with my practice ultimately, i think the reason is that i stopped to punish myself every time i commit an error.
In this video, you put into words what i have been trying to put into words for myself for over ten years. Practicing is like a jigsaw puzzle that I've always had all of the pieces to, but could never figure out the right order to put them in. But this video put the puzzle together, and sealed it permanently, at least for me. This was amazing. Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into making this life-changing video. I'm very grateful. Thank you. -Bryan
Thanks for this amazing video, Jakob. My guitar learning method was very frustrating and punishing, both by my father and my first teachers. I was constantly scared of making mistakes, which stopped me from trying to get out of my comfort zone. Nowadays I'm a math professor, researching relations between music and mathematics, and I completely understand the feeling of your father, since my teaching methods with my math students is the complete opposite of my guitar learning method. Your video is very necessary, not just to music teachers but for every educator. Also, very cute dog!
I absolutely love this video. I often struggle with both learning and teaching, not really sure of the path to making and teaching music without second guessing myself all the time. This video opens a door I really needed. Thank you!
I think if there is a reward to be had, it's like you say, it should be related to the pratice itself, not something extrinsic, I do however contest the ideas of reward and punishment itself, I think they are part of the same game which is connected to the old ideas of classical conditioning... I think that the true reward should be in the process itself, learning and discovering the instrument, so I guess the point is to suggest that the reward is in the process itself, not a end goal (in my view...). As simple as helping them love the process of learning the instrument. So I guess we reach similar conclusions through different means 😉 I do think it's very inspiring that your dad decided to do the opposite of his teacher, in a culture where we so often perpetuate the things we disliked about our former teachers, as if it's the "normal thing to do", because "we learned that way".
To avoid disappointment, let's be realistic. Tricks such as rewards may help, but not always. Talent does matter. Parts of what talent means are indeed undefined, but others not. Let's say talent means the mental and physical ability to learn and do something with a minimal effort and achieve excellent results, which is partly innate. Not everyone has the same IQ. Result: some are stronger in math. Regarding the playing of an instrument. This has some similarities with sports. We all do not have the same maximum achievable degree of neuromuscular control. If you simply cannot play the next note or chord fast enough because of that, a reward will never help. In that case, stubbornly continuing to practice for years without making any progress is futile. We have to live with our limits.
Understanding that rewards are not optional solves this issue, too. If a student's fundamentally unable to experience this, they can now make a well-informed decision to let go of the instrument, rather than thinking that even more strain and effort will help. However, in my experience it's often the case that students don't understand what they need to look for and teachers are unable or unwilling to show them. Thanks for your comment! -Jakob
Hi Jakub, thanks for this video. Keep them coming. They're truly inspiring and insightful. I've been a tonebase member for a year, and I can't recommend it highly enough. As someone without a one to one teacher, I've learned enormously from the best of the best in tonebase.
This is a really great, very inspiring and helpful video! Thank you very much for the food for thought 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻! I wish I had had the maturity in my younger years to be patient with myself and not despise myself for every little mistake! I guess that would have saved me a lot of painful, rocky detours...
A thoughtful analysis but it might give the impression that guitar technique is well understood when at present it is not. Greatly improved practice habits are tending to conceal this fact. Stimulating the student to solve problems is a partial, if not ideal, solution, even if the teacher himself or herself may not know the answer!
Thank you for your comment! As stated, this is only one part of the equation, that's true! In my experience, it's the most poorly understood and usually ignored issue, and without it we're just as helpless as we would be without technical knowledge. -Jakob
Be an obsessive perfectionist and repeat every mediocre passage 1 million times until it becomes like breathing, question every decision you make, never take any movement for granted, don't expect or crave to get much better, constantly try to replicate the sounds of your idols....Parkening apparently spent one week working on his thumb trying to get the same sound as Segovia...Sound fun? Normal people don't do this.
1) Basic talent and proclivity for music. 2) Willingness to practice. 3) A good teacher. 4) Supportive family. Replace music with any other activities such as mathematics, sports, Chess, etc. Undeserving praise(reward) is the fastest way to mediocrity.
Music is a language, eminates from the same part of the brain that generates language and should be taught like a language only ...... generally speaking second language teaching around the world is 99.99% done wrong (I am a music and language teacher). Music should be taught or rather acquired much the same way we acquire our native language. There is musical pedagogy that sought to address this, such as Kodaly Dalcroze and Suzuki (Hindemith and Orff included). We teach music generally by expecting students to read music first and play after but what we need to do is start with sound, the ear and if possible the voice so that learners get grounded in the actual language of music before having to learn to read and write it, much the same with native language. This is how I try to teach and I have a lot more success turning "problematic" students into performers, than when I tried more "traditional" approaches.
The thing I can`t stand about the plethora of self proclaimed experts out there today is they can`t just get to the point...in this case state what these three things are...then maybe elaborate..instead a lot of subjective bullshit...at least here we`re not asked for MUF...money up front...instead it`s just listen to me I have the ultimate answer to learning in music...I still don`t know what it is and if I could get all the way through to the end of the video I`ll probably be asked for money...want to know why John Coltrane was good ? He practiced a lot.
There's plenty of actionable, objective and well-tested advice in the video, and there's plenty of people who practice as much as or even more than the greats without getting anywhere. It's not as easy as just putting in the hours and the video is exactly about that, nothing more. Hope that helps!
With all due respect, most of what was presented here is pseudoscience. All that's actually supported in evidence is try to get sufficient sleep and if you want to get above the lowest levels, get sufficient practice time in.
Thanks for your comment! I'm a musician, not a scientist, but pseudoscience would claim untestable things, which I didn't. You can test these thoughts very easily, so feel free to try it for yourself! -Jakob
@@tonebase Hi Jacob, Thank you for your reply. So, with appreciation that you're a musical educator and science isn't so much your area of expertise, I just wanted to clarify one of the misunderstandings I noticed in your reply. With regards to pseudoscience being categorically untestable, that's not entirely accurate. Homeopathy is very well established as being pseudoscientific but you can very easily purchase homeopathic "remedies" in Germany and try them yourself. More so, there are certainly many people who claim efficacy of homeopathic compounds as there is a very viable commercial market for them. So clearly, pseudoscientific claims are still testable. Furthermore, self-reported claims of efficacy aren't the best metric for measuring validity. While I appreciate Tonebase is a commercial entity with expenses, salaries and market pressures, I would encourage you to take a more grounded approach to your educational methods. It's both better for the long-term relationship between your customers and music by setting a more reasonable expectation and would give you more confidence as an educator when your methods have better support in literature.
Oh dear - half way through I gave up. I suspect something clever is going on but I have no real concrete view on what it is or how to apply it and I realise too that that constant background guitar is distracting and increasingly irritating. Or is that sonic wallpaper (trouble for me - I know the guitar) part of the subliminality of your fluent and breathless message? Hohum.. I sometimes think we guitarists are too clever by half (well excepting me, evidently…)!
Try again, James you poor sap - try harder! Put it to half speed… pause to let it all sink in. What?? You just can’t be bothered?? Och, go bile yer heed, you wretched wee slowloris…
This is silly. We do not learn like dogs... c'mon. Your premises are faulty. Getting good at music is done by finding Christ and then practising in His joy.
I spent 30 years consulting with schools on how to build effective learning environments, and seeing another video on learning/teaching/pedagogy made me anticipate disaster, but . . . hold on . . . this was awesome!!! So many teachers fail to realize the power of praise/reward because of Kohn's terrible book title (Punished by Rewards - but, if you get to the end of that book you find out that he disagrees with his title - sort of). You went further and described attributes of praise/reward that make it instructional. My colleagues and I used slightly different attributes, but the idea was the same. When praise is timely, specific, contingent, and sincere it becomes instructive. It's also helpful (necessary) for the relationship between instructor and student to be pleasing and based on trust and esteem. Importantly, praise works ONLY when the student perceives it as such. Intent doesn't matter. Just like sincerity, praise is only sincere when the student feels it as sincere. Your suggestions on how to insert reward into the natural feedback process is clever. Congrats on a great video. Cheers.
Yes, 100% agreed to all of this! We need to take our students seriously, no matter if they're children or adults. I'm really glad to hear a confirmation on this from outside the music pedagogy bubble. -Jakob
Insightful. Well done!
The most important thing is vocation, having the love for something. Talent and hard work is just 10 percent
Playing music that is intrinsically motivating to the student can be the best long term reward!
My experience is that I will struggle with a section, stop practicing, try it the next day, and sleep did the heavy lifting. So the idea of getting the reward in the very same session seems hard to conceptualize.
Eliminate all fear from your musical journey and you will be OK. Fear covers all area of a musicians life from choosing an instrument to performing to an audience.
Fear,authority,comparing,not being accurate,winging it,playing music you don't want to are all human elements that carry fear which stops you in you tracks. There are many more.
Most people will not recognise fear but thats life. Its a deep learning thing that not all want to delve in to.
Interesting video even for a non-musician (have a deep interest for the arts). Was into teatching. Was not the greatest teatcher but my students got top results. The key was probably lots of hard work to create a positive and stimulating learning environment. No need for punishment as we all get embarrased by failure...
Very nice video. I was wondering why i've been so happy with my practice ultimately, i think the reason is that i stopped to punish myself every time i commit an error.
In this video, you put into words what i have been trying to put into words for myself for over ten years. Practicing is like a jigsaw puzzle that I've always had all of the pieces to, but could never figure out the right order to put them in. But this video put the puzzle together, and sealed it permanently, at least for me. This was amazing. Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into making this life-changing video. I'm very grateful. Thank you. -Bryan
Thanks for this amazing video, Jakob. My guitar learning method was very frustrating and punishing, both by my father and my first teachers. I was constantly scared of making mistakes, which stopped me from trying to get out of my comfort zone. Nowadays I'm a math professor, researching relations between music and mathematics, and I completely understand the feeling of your father, since my teaching methods with my math students is the complete opposite of my guitar learning method. Your video is very necessary, not just to music teachers but for every educator. Also, very cute dog!
Shared this with my teacher. Good stuff!
I absolutely love this video. I often struggle with both learning and teaching, not really sure of the path to making and teaching music without second guessing myself all the time. This video opens a door I really needed. Thank you!
I think if there is a reward to be had, it's like you say, it should be related to the pratice itself, not something extrinsic, I do however contest the ideas of reward and punishment itself, I think they are part of the same game which is connected to the old ideas of classical conditioning... I think that the true reward should be in the process itself, learning and discovering the instrument, so I guess the point is to suggest that the reward is in the process itself, not a end goal (in my view...). As simple as helping them love the process of learning the instrument. So I guess we reach similar conclusions through different means
😉
I do think it's very inspiring that your dad decided to do the opposite of his teacher, in a culture where we so often perpetuate the things we disliked about our former teachers, as if it's the "normal thing to do", because "we learned that way".
Amazing video! This is so cool and I’m excited to try thinking about this more in my own practice. I loved your music selections too.
Great Video! Very interesting and important topic!
To avoid disappointment, let's be realistic. Tricks such as rewards may help, but not always. Talent does matter. Parts of what talent means are indeed undefined, but others not. Let's say talent means the mental and physical ability to learn and do something with a minimal effort and achieve excellent results, which is partly innate. Not everyone has the same IQ. Result: some are stronger in math. Regarding the playing of an instrument. This has some similarities with sports. We all do not have the same maximum achievable degree of neuromuscular control. If you simply cannot play the next note or chord fast enough because of that, a reward will never help. In that case, stubbornly continuing to practice for years without making any progress is futile. We have to live with our limits.
Understanding that rewards are not optional solves this issue, too. If a student's fundamentally unable to experience this, they can now make a well-informed decision to let go of the instrument, rather than thinking that even more strain and effort will help. However, in my experience it's often the case that students don't understand what they need to look for and teachers are unable or unwilling to show them. Thanks for your comment! -Jakob
I loved this video. I can't wait to try to use it in my own practice.
Whats the song in the background for the intro?
Hi Jakub, thanks for this video. Keep them coming. They're truly inspiring and insightful. I've been a tonebase member for a year, and I can't recommend it highly enough.
As someone without a one to one teacher, I've learned enormously from the best of the best in tonebase.
This is a really great, very inspiring and helpful video! Thank you very much for the food for thought 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻!
I wish I had had the maturity in my younger years to be patient with myself and not despise myself for every little mistake! I guess that would have saved me a lot of painful, rocky detours...
A thoughtful analysis but it might give the impression that guitar technique is well understood when at present it is not. Greatly improved practice habits are tending to conceal this fact. Stimulating the student to solve problems is a partial, if not ideal, solution, even if the teacher himself or herself may not know the answer!
Thank you for your comment! As stated, this is only one part of the equation, that's true! In my experience, it's the most poorly understood and usually ignored issue, and without it we're just as helpless as we would be without technical knowledge. -Jakob
Darn, I thought the reward was going to be chocolate! Just kidding 😉 Great video 👍
Be an obsessive perfectionist and repeat every mediocre passage 1 million times until it becomes like breathing, question every decision you make, never take any movement for granted, don't expect or crave to get much better, constantly try to replicate the sounds of your idols....Parkening apparently spent one week working on his thumb trying to get the same sound as Segovia...Sound fun? Normal people don't do this.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
1) Basic talent and proclivity for music.
2) Willingness to practice.
3) A good teacher.
4) Supportive family.
Replace music with any other activities such as mathematics, sports, Chess, etc. Undeserving praise(reward) is the fastest way to mediocrity.
Music is a language, eminates from the same part of the brain that generates language and should be taught like a language only ...... generally speaking second language teaching around the world is 99.99% done wrong (I am a music and language teacher). Music should be taught or rather acquired much the same way we acquire our native language. There is musical pedagogy that sought to address this, such as Kodaly Dalcroze and Suzuki (Hindemith and Orff included). We teach music generally by expecting students to read music first and play after but what we need to do is start with sound, the ear and if possible the voice so that learners get grounded in the actual language of music before having to learn to read and write it, much the same with native language.
This is how I try to teach and I have a lot more success turning "problematic" students into performers, than when I tried more "traditional" approaches.
⬆️Complete and utter nonsense, contrary to actual findings in neuroscience.
The thing I can`t stand about the plethora of self proclaimed experts out there today is they can`t just get to the point...in this case state what these three things are...then maybe elaborate..instead a lot of subjective bullshit...at least here we`re not asked for MUF...money up front...instead it`s just listen to me I have the ultimate answer to learning in music...I still don`t know what it is and if I could get all the way through to the end of the video I`ll probably be asked for money...want to know why John Coltrane was good ? He practiced a lot.
There's plenty of actionable, objective and well-tested advice in the video, and there's plenty of people who practice as much as or even more than the greats without getting anywhere. It's not as easy as just putting in the hours and the video is exactly about that, nothing more. Hope that helps!
@@tonebase except that you start with 3 main points then take forever to say what they are
@@dougthompson8226Even the best concepts and ideas need the proper set up in order to make sense to the people that are ready to receive them.
With all due respect, most of what was presented here is pseudoscience.
All that's actually supported in evidence is try to get sufficient sleep and if you want to get above the lowest levels, get sufficient practice time in.
Thanks for your comment! I'm a musician, not a scientist, but pseudoscience would claim untestable things, which I didn't. You can test these thoughts very easily, so feel free to try it for yourself! -Jakob
@@tonebase Hi Jacob,
Thank you for your reply. So, with appreciation that you're a musical educator and science isn't so much your area of expertise, I just wanted to clarify one of the misunderstandings I noticed in your reply.
With regards to pseudoscience being categorically untestable, that's not entirely accurate. Homeopathy is very well established as being pseudoscientific but you can very easily purchase homeopathic "remedies" in Germany and try them yourself. More so, there are certainly many people who claim efficacy of homeopathic compounds as there is a very viable commercial market for them. So clearly, pseudoscientific claims are still testable. Furthermore, self-reported claims of efficacy aren't the best metric for measuring validity.
While I appreciate Tonebase is a commercial entity with expenses, salaries and market pressures, I would encourage you to take a more grounded approach to your educational methods. It's both better for the long-term relationship between your customers and music by setting a more reasonable expectation and would give you more confidence as an educator when your methods have better support in literature.
Oh dear - half way through I gave up. I suspect something clever is going on but I have no real concrete view on what it is or how to apply it and I realise too that that constant background guitar is distracting and increasingly irritating. Or is that sonic wallpaper (trouble for me - I know the guitar) part of the subliminality of your fluent and breathless message? Hohum.. I sometimes think we guitarists are too clever by half (well excepting me, evidently…)!
Try again, James you poor sap - try harder! Put it to half speed… pause to let it all sink in. What?? You just can’t be bothered?? Och, go bile yer heed, you wretched wee slowloris…
Let's all listen to 20yo Seth Rogen. He must have all the answers, life experience, and empirical evidence. 🙄 You've got to be kidding me.
This is silly. We do not learn like dogs... c'mon. Your premises are faulty. Getting good at music is done by finding Christ and then practising in His joy.