I always loved that The Twin Cataclysms were only around 1,000 years ago, compared to for example, Faerun's (boring) history, or Pathfinder's own global-cataclysm of 10,000 years before current-campaign-year. I never really thought too deeply into Suel or Baklunish prehistory -- other than moving events such as Vatun leading some Suel to the opposite side of the world, or Zuoken holding a mountainous pass vs the Suel practically by himself for several days of siege, in my own head-canon, to the same era as the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire, the same generation as Slerotin when he led some Suel into The Flanaess.
1000 years is enough to play your whole life. When I look at the Forgotten Realms' lore, it's much more that I can absorb as a DM. It's one of the reasons why I do prefer the Greyhawk setting.
I think setting the veil of history about 1000 years back is an interesting choice; it gives plenty of space to write history without requiring a huge commitment in terms of worldbuilding. It's also just about the right amount of time that humanoid types can't breach that historical line...mostly. Some elves can, though, which means there could be value in seeking out the few particularly venerable ones in hope of gaining insight into the distant past (for example, to gain insight on a recently discovered set of ruins that appear to predate the Invoked Devastation by a couple centuries, or some of the odder magic items found therein).
The Bronze Age collapse might be a better comparison to the Twin Cataclysms. In the space of a relatively short time (less than a century) most of the civilizations on the Mediterranean were either destroyed or reduced to fairly small pockets. But, in the thousand years afterwards, the Assyrian empire rose and fell, Athens and Sparta fought wars holding back the Persians, and Rome began its rise to power.
I agree with not comparing the fall of the Suel Imperium & Baklunish Empire with the fall of Rome & the Western Empire. If one is comparing the wandering of the Suloise with the migrations of the historical Indo-European peoples, then comparing the Twin Cataclysms with the Bronze Age collapse makes a lot more sense. The western Roman Empire may have fell in 476, but the Eastern Empire based in Constantinople continued for an additional millennium. The Greek speaking East had much contact with Eastern (Slavic) Europe, Southwestern Asia & Northeastern Africa during the entirety of the time span.
Would it not be more like the Younger Dryas .. an event 11k bc that completely destroyed all of civilisation to the point we had migrations over the rest of the world and had to effectively start civilisation over again? The wipeout was not man made, but the devastation was a natural disaster, complete with climate change
I used to place some 3rd party adventures in Greyhawk, mostly Judges Guild stuff. Like the Caverns of Thracia in the mountains south of Grewhawk, and Dark Tower in the Sea of Dust as an ancient and even more ancient ruins to explore.
Very interesting and informative video. I knew that if anyone could do a video on this topic then the best person would be you. Excellent job good sir.👏👏👏👍👍
Greyhawk going to become really popular again, with newcomers curious about this setting! I'm not worried. We will always have the Greyhawk that is, whatever WOTC does with it to appeal to newcomers.
If you think about the Romans, their history was maybe about 800-1000 years, depending on when you time the beginning of the Republic and the fall of the Empire. In comparing the 1,000 years detailed in the Gold Box about the Flanaess following the Great Migration, and then look at the lost history of the Suel being over 5,000 years, consider the Egyptians and THEIR history; it dates back 5,000 years. It's been 2,000 years since the death of Christ, which was around the height of the Roman Empire. If you go back 2,000 year prior to that, the Egyptions still existed -- much like the Suel. We've barely been around by comparison.
Living Greyhawk also called "LG") was a massively shared living campaign administered by the RPGA which ran from 2000 to 2008. The campaign setting and storyline were based on Gary Gygax's World of Greyhawk setting and used the Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition (later v3.5) rules. During the lifespan of the campaign, more than a thousand adventures were published, and these were played by tens of thousands of players[1] around the world.
Medieval Europeans didn't know much about what came before (Roman Empire, yes, Alexander, no), so this limited knowledge base makes a lot of sense in terms of historical analogy. Also, just for the record, the "rise and fall of the Empire of Vecna" mostly didn't coincide with that thousand years, bar about a single generation of overlap.
I've always considered the -5000 dates as exaggerations/fabrications similar to real world history, like the hebrew calendar claiming ~6000 years (when archaeology of the middle east shows that's clearly not the case) or the mythical dynasties of China (sanhuang wudi (three sovereigns and 5 emperors) story, Xia dynasty etc) that are now considered mythology only. There is precedent that all cultures embellish their past to gain prestige in the present. Of course with magic and gods being real there is *more* room for that kind of thing being plausible, but still embellishments. Even the Roman Empire made up about 500 years from the "founding of Rome" to when the republic actually existed and became relevant to history. I assume the real Suel/Baklunish period was about 1000 to 2000 years before the Twin Calamities, anything more than that is not 'verifiable' history.
You beat me to it. The Suloise and the Baklunish are unreliable narrators when it comes to their own history. At least the Olvenfolk can point to their parents and grandparents and realistically lay claim to mutli-millennial heritage, although in my campaign elves have primarily oral tradition and only developed writing after humans did (simply because the necessity of passing lore on to later generations was not as urgent when said generations lived with you for hundreds of adult years vs 20-30 and could hear your epic songs enough times to learn them by heart.).
Checking the Map, the Invoked Devastation was 3 times as large as the rain Colorless Fire. Parties involved: Invoked: Clerics (Invocation) Miracle (Clr 8 Spell). Colorless Fire: Illusionists (Chromatic Orb, Prismatic Spray) Alter Reality (Ill 8 Spell). A 10th level spell compared to Magic-User spell levels. Although it could have easily been Magic-Users, the theme seems Illusionist.
Three times as large in the area of effect, but much less effective. The Rain of Colorless Fire literally destroyed mountains and cities; the Invoked Devastation just knocked the level of civilization back a thousand years (and killing people of course).
KEEP GREYHAWK ALIVE!
I enjoy all of Greyhawk Grognard videos
I always loved that The Twin Cataclysms were only around 1,000 years ago, compared to for example, Faerun's (boring) history, or Pathfinder's own global-cataclysm of 10,000 years before current-campaign-year.
I never really thought too deeply into Suel or Baklunish prehistory -- other than moving events such as Vatun leading some Suel to the opposite side of the world, or Zuoken holding a mountainous pass vs the Suel practically by himself for several days of siege, in my own head-canon, to the same era as the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire, the same generation as Slerotin when he led some Suel into The Flanaess.
1000 years is enough to play your whole life. When I look at the Forgotten Realms' lore, it's much more that I can absorb as a DM. It's one of the reasons why I do prefer the Greyhawk setting.
I enjoy all of Greyhawk Grognard videos ... for sure show all
How about a timeline video Grognard.
Now that's a great idea ! I'm voting for that :p
Loved Greyhawk in the 80s. Rediscovering it all over again. Thanks Grog! 👍🏼
Keep spreading the Love of Greyhawk
I think setting the veil of history about 1000 years back is an interesting choice; it gives plenty of space to write history without requiring a huge commitment in terms of worldbuilding. It's also just about the right amount of time that humanoid types can't breach that historical line...mostly. Some elves can, though, which means there could be value in seeking out the few particularly venerable ones in hope of gaining insight into the distant past (for example, to gain insight on a recently discovered set of ruins that appear to predate the Invoked Devastation by a couple centuries, or some of the odder magic items found therein).
Demihuman and humanoid mean different things in Greyhawk compared with modern DnD. I think you meant Demihuman?
The Bronze Age collapse might be a better comparison to the Twin Cataclysms. In the space of a relatively short time (less than a century) most of the civilizations on the Mediterranean were either destroyed or reduced to fairly small pockets. But, in the thousand years afterwards, the Assyrian empire rose and fell, Athens and Sparta fought wars holding back the Persians, and Rome began its rise to power.
I agree with not comparing the fall of the Suel Imperium & Baklunish Empire with the fall of Rome & the Western Empire. If one is comparing the wandering of the Suloise with the migrations of the historical Indo-European peoples, then comparing the Twin Cataclysms with the Bronze Age collapse makes a lot more sense. The western Roman Empire may have fell in 476, but the Eastern Empire based in Constantinople continued for an additional millennium. The Greek speaking East had much contact with Eastern (Slavic) Europe, Southwestern Asia & Northeastern Africa during the entirety of the time span.
@@ValamirCleaver I'm comparing the wanderings of the Oeridians/Suel with the Migration Era Germanic tribes.
Would it not be more like the Younger Dryas .. an event 11k bc that completely destroyed all of civilisation to the point we had migrations over the rest of the world and had to effectively start civilisation over again?
The wipeout was not man made, but the devastation was a natural disaster, complete with climate change
I used to place some 3rd party adventures in Greyhawk, mostly Judges Guild stuff. Like the Caverns of Thracia in the mountains south of Grewhawk, and Dark Tower in the Sea of Dust as an ancient and even more ancient ruins to explore.
Putting Caverns of Thracia in the Abbor-Alz is a neat idea. I like it.
Very interesting and informative video. I knew that if anyone could do a video on this topic then the best person would be you. Excellent job good sir.👏👏👏👍👍
Interesting topic. Guess I never thought that much about timelines, but it does make sense. Good video.
Another great video!
Greyhawk going to become really popular again, with newcomers curious about this setting! I'm not worried. We will always have the Greyhawk that is, whatever WOTC does with it to appeal to newcomers.
If you think about the Romans, their history was maybe about 800-1000 years, depending on when you time the beginning of the Republic and the fall of the Empire. In comparing the 1,000 years detailed in the Gold Box about the Flanaess following the Great Migration, and then look at the lost history of the Suel being over 5,000 years, consider the Egyptians and THEIR history; it dates back 5,000 years. It's been 2,000 years since the death of Christ, which was around the height of the Roman Empire. If you go back 2,000 year prior to that, the Egyptions still existed -- much like the Suel.
We've barely been around by comparison.
Don't forget the Yuan-ti Empire
Where can the living Greyhawk supplement be found?
Living Greyhawk also called "LG") was a massively shared living campaign administered by the RPGA which ran from 2000 to 2008. The campaign setting and storyline were based on Gary Gygax's World of Greyhawk setting and used the Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition (later v3.5) rules. During the lifespan of the campaign, more than a thousand adventures were published, and these were played by tens of thousands of players[1] around the world.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 I guess he is refering to the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.
Medieval Europeans didn't know much about what came before (Roman Empire, yes, Alexander, no), so this limited knowledge base makes a lot of sense in terms of historical analogy. Also, just for the record, the "rise and fall of the Empire of Vecna" mostly didn't coincide with that thousand years, bar about a single generation of overlap.
I've always considered the -5000 dates as exaggerations/fabrications similar to real world history, like the hebrew calendar claiming ~6000 years (when archaeology of the middle east shows that's clearly not the case) or the mythical dynasties of China (sanhuang wudi (three sovereigns and 5 emperors) story, Xia dynasty etc) that are now considered mythology only.
There is precedent that all cultures embellish their past to gain prestige in the present. Of course with magic and gods being real there is *more* room for that kind of thing being plausible, but still embellishments. Even the Roman Empire made up about 500 years from the "founding of Rome" to when the republic actually existed and became relevant to history.
I assume the real Suel/Baklunish period was about 1000 to 2000 years before the Twin Calamities, anything more than that is not 'verifiable' history.
You beat me to it. The Suloise and the Baklunish are unreliable narrators when it comes to their own history. At least the Olvenfolk can point to their parents and grandparents and realistically lay claim to mutli-millennial heritage, although in my campaign elves have primarily oral tradition and only developed writing after humans did (simply because the necessity of passing lore on to later generations was not as urgent when said generations lived with you for hundreds of adult years vs 20-30 and could hear your epic songs enough times to learn them by heart.).
🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉
Checking the Map, the Invoked Devastation was 3 times as large as the rain Colorless Fire.
Parties involved:
Invoked: Clerics (Invocation) Miracle (Clr 8 Spell).
Colorless Fire: Illusionists (Chromatic Orb, Prismatic Spray) Alter Reality (Ill 8 Spell).
A 10th level spell compared to Magic-User spell levels. Although it could have easily been Magic-Users, the theme seems Illusionist.
Three times as large in the area of effect, but much less effective. The Rain of Colorless Fire literally destroyed mountains and cities; the Invoked Devastation just knocked the level of civilization back a thousand years (and killing people of course).