I read Lewis as a boy of 9 and Tolkien as a boy of 15. The Chronicles made it possible for me to read The Lord of the Rings. Now at 58 I have to confess that Lewis’s writing moves me more deeply
I love both works for different reasons. Tolkien created a superb fantasy epic. Lewis created a theological treatise in fantasy form. I must confess I owe a lot of my spiritual theology in prayer to Lewis.
The difference is actually rather simple. Tolkein was producing Lore, a new mythology of sorts. Lewis just wanted to tell a fantastic story. Both succeeded.
I’ve been under the apprehension that Mr Tolkien wrote for a more adult audience in “Lord of the Rings” and Mr Lewis wrote for a more adolescent audience in “Chronicles of Narnia”. There in lies the difference in style and taste.
That seems correct to me, I would just add that I believe The Hobbit was written for children primarily, before the more adult tone of The Lord of the Rings was undertaken.
@@lt5456 many years ago when I first became a Christian, discovered “Mere Christianity” and became an admirer of C.S. Lewis I was told that both “The Chronicles of Narnia” and “The Lord of the Rings” were allegories of the New Testament. With that thought in mind I read the former and reread the latter. It does change the impression of both works.
I don’t think that Lord of the Rings is meant to be allegorical, but Narnia definitely has clear allegorical meanings to the faith. Aslan is such a great view of Jesus, from his presence in creation in The Magician’s Nephew to his sacrifice and resurrection in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, all the way to his leading his followers in The Last Battle, it’s a pretty clear connection. Not sure how you can look at Narnia and not consider it Christian.
Lewis was a Christian philosopher and there are obvious references to the New Testament (Aslan as Jesus, Eustace as St Paul, the Last Battle as the End of Days etc)
1. The Narnian Chronicles were designed primarily for a younger audience. 2. The Narnian Chronicles are full of excellent allegories about Christianity that are relevant to both children and adults.
@@donsurlylyte If something is designed for a a different audience it doesn't make it inferior, it just makes it different. By your logic you could also disparage The Lord of The Rings by comparing it to The Brothers Karamazov or War And Peace. As far as allegorical content, I think that this has always been one of Lewis's strong points and I strongly disagree.
Tolkien described the books to one correspondent as “deservedly popular” and had no problem recommending the Narnia books to his own grandchildren, and handing them copies thereof. Holly Ordway, Tolkien’s Modern Reading: Middle-eath beyond the Middle Ages (Park Ridge, 2021), pp. 78 & 79
I've read the Chronicles of Narnia once. I've read the Hobbit and LOTR multiple times and am now 1/3 of the way through LOTR at this moment. No desire to read Narnia again at his time.
I read the Chronicles of Narnia and I considered it classic of spiritual way of looking at it. And I’ve read his trilogy books two of the space trilogy set and he was very good of writings spiritual and it was excellent.
I read Narnia around 10 years old and reread in College- LOTR in high school and again in College. One is a private work of personal passion, the other a work intended for public consumption with an audience in mind. I much prefer LOTR if only because works of its purpose are so rare; almost impossible to find really.
Please correct me if this is just a small clip of a larger conversation but how can you have this discussion without mentioning Tolkien’s dislike of blatant allegories in fiction.
The Chronicles of Narnia are for a younger audience than The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien may have had a point though, the Narnia books ARE a little all over the place. Different characters, and times in each story.
It's been awhile since I read them. The massive time jumps didn't help with keeping up with any continuity. When the kids return to Narnia in Prince Caspian, it's a totally different world than The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. I was confused where the humans in Narnia came from, because weren't the kids the only humans in "Lion", not counting the Witch who I think is later revealed to be a giant from another world in "Nephew".
It is a struggle to stay subscribed to this channel. Every time I watch a video and check my subscription status, I am not subscribed. I have to resubscribe every time I watch a video.
I enjoy both. Different audiences and different writing styles. Tolkien had written a whole universe before he wrote Lord of the Rings. He ceated a new mythos. Lewis used things in seemingly simpler ways and much like we would expect these mythic creatures to be.
Tolkien and Lewis both wrote of worlds based on folklore and mythology of dubious origin. Elves, trolls, fauns, and dragons are all stitched into the European consciousness, and it's impossible to know where they really come from. Tolkien however, dismissed the intrinsic _whimsy_ in these things. The elves who made shoes for the cobbler, the witch who enticed children with a house of candy and cake, purely silly inventions to capture the attention of children, but there's a great value in that. Tolkien's work takes stories and fables for children and "de-childs" them, and that pleases grownup children who want to believe that fairy tales are very serious business. Lewis' fanciful trappings around Narnia are the spoonful of sugar that gets serious moral principles into the minds of young people, or any reader. As an example, the talking trees are not important, the consequences of betraying your family for Turkish Delight, are.
@@Art-is-craft The man you replied to is not saying they don't have intrinsic value, just that they needed to be re-contextualized for our more mature sensibilities!
The chronicles of Narnia must be taken as a fairy tale book. But not any fairy tale: the ones written by the grimm brothers, but in thr XX century. Narnia is great, if you read it in a relaxed way.
If both of them wrote the same, or thought the same, then one of them would not have been necessary to either their friendship or the world of literature!
@@JSomerled The Narnia series has a child’s innocence playing out in a very adult set of conditions. When you view it through the lens of childhood the story that plays out are much richer than people realise. They are not as shallow as people would believe. LOTR of the Rings deep complexities are clearly on display but in Narnia it has to be earned. Two different approaches.
Narnia is a GREAT series -- for children. But as an adult, I find it boring because it is so juvenile. The Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is still interesting when read as an adult. The word that best describes Narnia is pablum. It's the intellectual equivalent of baby food. Tolkien (except The Hobbit) is red meat.
@@CCoburn3 They are not boring if you can use your imagination to see it from a child’s point of view. The books have an innocence to them in a very serious story.
@@Art-is-craft They may not be boring to you, but I find them terribly tedious. Tastes vary. But there is no denying that Narnia was written for children. And as children's books, they do a great job telling an important story. But that doesn't mean that they are going to be appealing to adults. Adults are not the target audience. Narnia is like the old Disney cartoons with Mickey and Goofy. Kids LOVE them. But adults usually have outgrown them. The Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, are like the Warner Brothers cartoons. Kids like them, but don't get all the allusions. Adults understand them and like them even more than they did when they were children. Basically, there's more to them than the Disney cartoons. Disney (and Narnia) are one-dimensional. But the Warner Brothers (and LOTR) are multidimensional and much more complex.
@@CCoburn3Narnia is not merely for children any more than The Wind in the Willows, A Wrinkle in Time, or Treasure Island. A good story is a good story whether the primary audience is for children or not. I first read all the Narnia books as a child, but there is a lot that I still keep getting out of Narnia as a grownup, and there are many themes in the books that many would consider unfit for children, such real dangers and even death, both Lewis and Tolkien believing that children aren't stupid and know the world can be a scary place. I mean, in the last book all the children die in a train accident. Narnia is for children, yes, but it's NOT juvenile by any means and grownups can get a lot out of the stories.
It was a bet between the 2 while at the Dirty Duck pub in Oxford who could write the best Christian allegory (Tolkien converted Lewis to Christianity). Altho Lewis's work is definitely a Christian allegory, no one can tell that when they read Tolkien. Maybe that is why Tolkien does not like 'Chronicles of Narnia' as Lewis obviously won the bet. Nobody associates Tolkein's work with Christianity. End of story. Maybe the 'expert' here does not know the origins of these tales so his opinions are total bs.
No Tolkien was not an atheist. He was a Christian. In fact Lewis credits Tolkien as being highly influential in lewis’ return to Christianity after years of atheism.
Much like Chopin and Liszt.. or Schumann and Chopin.. or anybody practically, and Chopin.. he detested 95% of music in his time.. only John Field, Rossini, Schubert, Mozart and Bach made the cut, practically..
Please get rid of the huge, distracting, and annoying Hillsdale College microphone advertisements display. It only track from otherwise excellent content and cheapens the whole atmosphere of the videos.
The Lord of the Rings is definitely designed for a more mature audience . And, as much as that is true, Narnia can be a better place sometimes, than a working environment, for instance… there is a profound and philosophical phrase that says : “ F… this S… I’m going to Narnia “ … and off it goes a little girl carrying her luggage to the nearest closet ! Escape ? Can’t blame her ; work environment can be a stressful pace … 😶🌫️😐🫤….. …….🤣🤣🤣🤣
I read Lewis as a boy of 9 and Tolkien as a boy of 15. The Chronicles made it possible for me to read The Lord of the Rings. Now at 58 I have to confess that Lewis’s writing moves me more deeply
I love both works for different reasons. Tolkien created a superb fantasy epic. Lewis created a theological treatise in fantasy form. I must confess I owe a lot of my spiritual theology in prayer to Lewis.
The difference is actually rather simple. Tolkein was producing Lore, a new mythology of sorts. Lewis just wanted to tell a fantastic story. Both succeeded.
Lewis also had depth to his children’s novels. Tolkien barring the Hobbit is geared towards adults.
Once Tolkien was reading his work at an Inklings meeting and someone shouted out ""Not another ducking Elf!"
I’ve been under the apprehension that Mr Tolkien wrote for a more adult audience in “Lord of the Rings” and Mr Lewis wrote for a more adolescent audience in “Chronicles of Narnia”. There in lies the difference in style and taste.
That seems correct to me, I would just add that I believe The Hobbit was written for children primarily, before the more adult tone of The Lord of the Rings was undertaken.
@@lt5456 many years ago when I first became a Christian, discovered “Mere Christianity” and became an admirer of C.S. Lewis I was told that both “The Chronicles of Narnia” and “The Lord of the Rings” were allegories of the New Testament. With that thought in mind I read the former and reread the latter. It does change the impression of both works.
I don’t think that Lord of the Rings is meant to be allegorical, but Narnia definitely has clear allegorical meanings to the faith. Aslan is such a great view of Jesus, from his presence in creation in The Magician’s Nephew to his sacrifice and resurrection in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, all the way to his leading his followers in The Last Battle, it’s a pretty clear connection. Not sure how you can look at Narnia and not consider it Christian.
Lewis was a Christian philosopher and there are obvious references to the New Testament (Aslan as Jesus, Eustace as St Paul, the Last Battle as the End of Days etc)
@@lt5456
They are not Christian books the are books written by Christian’s with the culture and themes of Christianity.
1. The Narnian Chronicles were designed primarily for a younger audience.
2. The Narnian Chronicles are full of excellent allegories about Christianity that are relevant to both children and adults.
both good reasons that they arent that great compared to tolkein
@@donsurlylyte If something is designed for a a different audience it doesn't make it inferior, it just makes it different. By your logic you could also disparage The Lord of The Rings by comparing it to The Brothers Karamazov or War And Peace. As far as allegorical content, I think that this has always been one of Lewis's strong points and I strongly disagree.
The fact that Lewis couldn't care less about what Tolkein's opinion of his work was will never cease to bemuse me, no no end!
Love both Tolkien and Lewis’ works.
I shared Tolkien’s opinion about Narnia for the longest time- until I finally read it.
Thanks for the short, short... Very interesting!
I love the Chronicles of Narnia.
I want to know more about Tolkien's evaluation of Lewis' novels.
Tolkien described the books to one correspondent as “deservedly popular” and had no problem recommending the Narnia books to his own grandchildren, and handing them copies thereof.
Holly Ordway, Tolkien’s Modern Reading: Middle-eath beyond the Middle Ages (Park Ridge, 2021), pp. 78 & 79
Thank you, always an interesting and provocative. perspective
I've read the Chronicles of Narnia once. I've read the Hobbit and LOTR multiple times and am now 1/3 of the way through LOTR at this moment. No desire to read Narnia again at his time.
I read the Chronicles of Narnia and I considered it classic of spiritual way of looking at it. And I’ve read his trilogy books two of the space trilogy set and he was very good of writings spiritual and it was excellent.
I love both gentlemen authors
Where can I buy new copies of original editions?
Great comment on all art.
It would have been great to have Dr. Birzer in on this conversation...
I read Narnia around 10 years old and reread in College- LOTR in high school and again in College. One is a private work of personal passion, the other a work intended for public consumption with an audience in mind. I much prefer LOTR if only because works of its purpose are so rare; almost impossible to find really.
Please correct me if this is just a small clip of a larger conversation but how can you have this discussion without mentioning Tolkien’s dislike of blatant allegories in fiction.
The Chronicles of Narnia are for a younger audience than The Lord of the Rings.
Tolkien may have had a point though, the Narnia books ARE a little all over the place. Different characters, and times in each story.
It's been awhile since I read them. The massive time jumps didn't help with keeping up with any continuity. When the kids return to Narnia in Prince Caspian, it's a totally different world than The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. I was confused where the humans in Narnia came from, because weren't the kids the only humans in "Lion", not counting the Witch who I think is later revealed to be a giant from another world in "Nephew".
It is a struggle to stay subscribed to this channel. Every time I watch a video and check my subscription status, I am not subscribed. I have to resubscribe every time I watch a video.
I enjoy both. Different audiences and different writing styles. Tolkien had written a whole universe before he wrote Lord of the Rings. He ceated a new mythos. Lewis used things in seemingly simpler ways and much like we would expect these mythic creatures to be.
Tolkien and Lewis both wrote of worlds based on folklore and mythology of dubious origin. Elves, trolls, fauns, and dragons are all stitched into the European consciousness, and it's impossible to know where they really come from. Tolkien however, dismissed the intrinsic _whimsy_ in these things. The elves who made shoes for the cobbler, the witch who enticed children with a house of candy and cake, purely silly inventions to capture the attention of children, but there's a great value in that. Tolkien's work takes stories and fables for children and "de-childs" them, and that pleases grownup children who want to believe that fairy tales are very serious business. Lewis' fanciful trappings around Narnia are the spoonful of sugar that gets serious moral principles into the minds of young people, or any reader. As an example, the talking trees are not important, the consequences of betraying your family for Turkish Delight, are.
I loved this comment :)
I think your comment is way off the mark. What makes you think elves and dwarfs are for children?
@@Art-is-craft The fact that people grow up and stop believing in elves and dwarves?
@@Art-is-craft The man you replied to is not saying they don't have intrinsic value, just that they needed to be re-contextualized for our more mature sensibilities!
@@trublgrl
Elves and dwarves are supernatural concepts like ghosts, demons and angels. Again what makes you think these are children’s concepts.
never been able to take narnia.
I think the inner constancy of reality that Tolkien didn't like its misleading to truth.
The chronicles of Narnia must be taken as a fairy tale book. But not any fairy tale: the ones written by the grimm brothers, but in thr XX century. Narnia is great, if you read it in a relaxed way.
The Lord told me NOT to let my children watch NARNIA when our church was going to show it at the youth group. I never saw it and will never.
If both of them wrote the same, or thought the same, then one of them would not have been necessary to either their friendship or the world of literature!
14th, 15 December 2023
Also Tolkien is my favorite South park character 😂
I kind of agree with Tolkien… Narnia is still good though,maybe not as good as LOTRs ,but still good.
It is equally as good as lord of the rings but context is important.
@@Art-is-craft I believe the depth of character creation alone sets LOTR way beyond
@@JSomerled
The Narnia series has a child’s innocence playing out in a very adult set of conditions. When you view it through the lens of childhood the story that plays out are much richer than people realise. They are not as shallow as people would believe. LOTR of the Rings deep complexities are clearly on display but in Narnia it has to be earned. Two different approaches.
@@Art-is-craft I can agree with that.. Narnia , through a child’s eye is good. Probably why it’s a best seller children’s book.
The Elephant, in the room, was that I am God.
Narnia is a GREAT series -- for children. But as an adult, I find it boring because it is so juvenile. The Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is still interesting when read as an adult. The word that best describes Narnia is pablum. It's the intellectual equivalent of baby food. Tolkien (except The Hobbit) is red meat.
Narnia is beautiful and most certainly resonates with children as it involves children.
@@Art-is-craft Sure. But there are many books that involve children that are not “children’s books.” The Narnia books are “children’s books.”
@@CCoburn3
They are not boring if you can use your imagination to see it from a child’s point of view. The books have an innocence to them in a very serious story.
@@Art-is-craft They may not be boring to you, but I find them terribly tedious. Tastes vary. But there is no denying that Narnia was written for children. And as children's books, they do a great job telling an important story. But that doesn't mean that they are going to be appealing to adults. Adults are not the target audience.
Narnia is like the old Disney cartoons with Mickey and Goofy. Kids LOVE them. But adults usually have outgrown them. The Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, are like the Warner Brothers cartoons. Kids like them, but don't get all the allusions. Adults understand them and like them even more than they did when they were children. Basically, there's more to them than the Disney cartoons. Disney (and Narnia) are one-dimensional. But the Warner Brothers (and LOTR) are multidimensional and much more complex.
@@CCoburn3Narnia is not merely for children any more than The Wind in the Willows, A Wrinkle in Time, or Treasure Island. A good story is a good story whether the primary audience is for children or not. I first read all the Narnia books as a child, but there is a lot that I still keep getting out of Narnia as a grownup, and there are many themes in the books that many would consider unfit for children, such real dangers and even death, both Lewis and Tolkien believing that children aren't stupid and know the world can be a scary place. I mean, in the last book all the children die in a train accident. Narnia is for children, yes, but it's NOT juvenile by any means and grownups can get a lot out of the stories.
One is still popular the other dead and canceled
It was a bet between the 2 while at the Dirty Duck pub in Oxford who could write the best Christian allegory (Tolkien converted Lewis to Christianity). Altho Lewis's work is definitely a Christian allegory, no one can tell that when they read Tolkien.
Maybe that is why Tolkien does not like 'Chronicles of Narnia' as Lewis obviously won the bet. Nobody associates Tolkein's work with Christianity. End of story.
Maybe the 'expert' here does not know the origins of these tales so his opinions are total bs.
I've never read either. Wasn't Tolkien an atheist and Lewis a Christian?
No Tolkien was not an atheist. He was a Christian. In fact Lewis credits Tolkien as being highly influential in lewis’ return to Christianity after years of atheism.
Much like Chopin and Liszt.. or Schumann and Chopin.. or anybody practically, and Chopin.. he detested 95% of music in his time.. only John Field, Rossini, Schubert, Mozart and Bach made the cut, practically..
Narnia is no good
Please get rid of the huge, distracting, and annoying Hillsdale College microphone advertisements display. It only track from otherwise excellent content and cheapens the whole atmosphere of the videos.
No body else cares
The books are quite weak.
The ChroniWHAcles of Narnia. Sorry.
The Narnia Chronicles are awful books; very badly written like many of the books by Lewis. Only Christians laud them for entirely the wrong reasons.
Only atheists get obsessed to the point that they feel the need to go after children’s books.
The Lord of the Rings is definitely designed for a more mature audience . And, as much as that is true, Narnia can be a better place sometimes, than a working environment, for instance… there is a profound and philosophical phrase that says : “ F… this S… I’m going to Narnia “ … and off it goes a little girl carrying her luggage to the nearest closet ! Escape ? Can’t blame her ; work environment can be a stressful pace … 😶🌫️😐🫤….. …….🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sooo we shouldn’t trust critics and do the work ourselves? 🤔🥸😎