Hoplite cuirass
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2009
- The Classical Greek hoplites (soldiers) wore a rather fetching cuirass or "corslet". I have made a reconstruction of one, and I have a few points to make about it. There is a theory, to which I do not subscribe, which says that these things were made of many layers of linen. I made mine from very thick leather, and I feel pretty safe in it.
One point I meant to mention but forgot appears in another (very short) video: th-cam.com/video/bg1iPL8eVeE/w-d-xo.html.
I weighed my cuirass, and it came out at 14 lbs (6kg).
More details on this subject on my website:
www.LloydianAspects.co.uk
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"People come up to me and knock on me as if I were some sort of door, and of course I sort of cheerfully punch them in the face and reply" - lindybeige Well then
The more sweat it wicks up, the softer it would get. Old fashioned glues were even smellier than modern ones.
Please tell me I'm not the only one who noticed the Buzz Lightyear face on his door.
I imagine Buzz is faced either at a toilet or shower. This way he both admires Lindy and horrifies guests.
+paranoidude dam noticed him only after reading your comment 0_0
so blind.......
+paranoidude
What buzz lightyear, you must be hallucinating.
JK
I saw It and came looking for this comment. Jesus, that face.
beyond and infinity To
"To infinity... and beyond!!"
I had no idea what you were talking about until I went back and looked. Nice catch.
Augustus Julias Those are the best catches :3 The superfluous ones that don't always make sense in the context :3
Thank God I'm not the only one who noticed.
Hiøtr Björgson Snepill Why?? There's nothing bad about it xD
I thought I was insane. I was like 'He's looking at me....'
2:41 made me laugh so suddenly, I nearly choked on my tea! :-D
Perfectly feasible. Homer was writing a poem, and needed nice-sounding adjectiival phrases to describe people all the time. Achaeans were usually "flowing haired", but I wouldn't interpret this as evidence that no Achaeans ever got bald patches.
I know that style of armor was popular during the Hellenistic Age when they used the massive sarissa (essentially a pike), but during the Archaic Age and early Classical Age bronze cuirasses were still popular and didn't have shoulder protection, so overarm was easier. They also used a shorter spear
Hello Buzz Lightyear. Stop looking at me like that.
Yeah, i cant stop noticing it either. I caught it about two minutes in.
To a degree, yes, the bronze ones tend to be earlier and later, and there were more of my kind in the mid classical, but there was plenty of overlap. Philip of Macedon had an iron one made in the shape of linen/leather one.
I have just discovered this guy (on searching linen thorax because I was interested if it actually worked) and he's awesome. Mad as a box of frogs. But awesome. Love all this kind of stuff.
Did you find the research on the linen armor and the testing on it?
That is NOT historically accurate.
Why are you wearing clothes under your armor?
Why are you wearing armor?
Where are your ancient swimming trunks?
What about your cape?
No ornamental leather bracelets? Why?
Disgusting.
+Chrystian Rafael But most importantly, what about his shield that changes size between scenes...
+Chrystian Rafael I don't think anyone got that this is sarcasm and making fun of "300" the movie. Nice comment XD
+Chrystian Rafael
People wore sweaters and pants back then. It just got left out of all the drawings, because they look better without.
***** Liar, they were solely ornamental, how can you look like a warrior when you are half-naked? LEATHER BRACELETS.
get your facts straight.
***** What joke? i don't get it
I imagine another reason for the additionally security for the belly is simply a result of the human body's lack of natural protection. With the chest, you have your ribcage to protect to some degree, but at your belly, there is nothing but muscles and fat. No bones for the weapon's tip to catch on and nothing to prevent them from wreaking havoc inside. Given how interior wounds and organ damage were likely to cause people to die within the following days and weeks, it seems sensible to take extra precaution at one of the most vulnerable and easiest to reach areas.
But I don't think they'd bother if they weren't afraid to get hit there, would they?
Yes, I was going to add a similar comment. A long and painful death followed a belly wound.
It's not like your ribs can't break into your organs. They aren't armor either🤣. If i take a flanged mace and smack it against your bronze scaled thorax it will break your ribs. Don't act like your bones are armor. If that was the case then people wouldn't have worn any chest or back protection or as much.
Also bone breakages take longer to heal and are harder to treat when or if they become infected. So i wouldn't say your ribs give you any protection at least not in warfare. In hand to hand combat yes they most certainly do, but against bronze and iron, no not even a little. And if so it's minimal.
why is buzz lightyear... you know what I don't think I need to know
Rewatch the video.
Look closely at the door on the left.
All of your questions will be answered.
The coloring on the top of the armor makes it look like clone trooper armor
@schizoidboy Yes. Lamellar armour was often rawhide, but the big drawback of rawhide is that it goes floppy and weak if wet (it also smells terrible!). The lamellar stuff was coated in various waxes, varnishes etc to keep out the wet.
First lindybeige video I ever watched and I've been hooked ever since! Content gets better and better ever day.
Lindy....you are quite hilarious. Informative, educating, well thought out, very rational, all of that and more. But you sir, add a good portion of humor to everything. Thank you.
I doubt that you get a chance to read through these comments, but I'd like to give you some feed back if I may; at the end of this video you apologize for not knowing when to shut up, to that I say bollocks. Your personality is easily responsible for a great number of your viewers, so please don't shut up. Please over feed us with information that challenges the word relevant, in doing so you are teaching that it is wise to cultivate a curiosity that won't be quieted. Cheers!
The linen armor, considering the costs, could have been a high status sort of item. the literature points to it being quite more protective compared to leather of the same weight; so that could also explain homer's linen reference: it makes the argives more magnificent.
+Guillermo Garcia Viesca (Gilderbeast)
It seems like while linen might've made very good armor, the superior type in both protection and prestige would probably be a padded bronze breastplate.
Something like this: s168.photobucket.com/user/Chesterthegreat12/media/Mycenaeanarmour2.jpg.html
Although who knows if Homer even existed or if the iliad & Oddysey weren't compiled from myriad stories a century after the fact. I'm fairly sure the gods didn't make personal appearances too.
Albrecht Shnoodle only 5he Odyssey was considered by some Classical Greek writers to be made from several earlier poems ,superimpose to a single tale.you see in Ithaca merchand goes to the palace of Odysseus and asks one of the suitors if he knows when Telemachus,the son of the hero,will come back to 5he island with his ship ,because he needs the ship to go to Tamessos ,in Cyprus to by copper.and before that Odysseus encounters some rough seas in the south of the Pelloponeese and after that he doesn’t know where he is .two different periods.one where the Mediterranean is used for trade purposes and war and the other the hero doesn’t know the area some miles away from the main part of southern Greece.those two stories I believe they are apart at least a thousand years apart.in the Iliad they are not unknown people or states ,except when he talks about some northern countries where the Sun doesn’t shine as in Greece.maybe he talks either about Scotland or Scandinavia.sources of copper or rar3 minerals.
Why would it cost more? Have you not seen the research?
@aiascunaxu Yes, Homer is that reference to linen corsletted Argives. The term "Linothorax" used to mean classical hoplite armour (many centuries after the Trojan War) is modern.
@TheArtistOfKuroo Yes, I'm aware that it can work, but lots of things can work, and yes I have seen pot paintings showing the two-strap arrangement.
You made me curious about the linon. I did some measurements and calculated that making a cuirass consisting of 16 layers of linon for an average 175 cm soldier only approx 7 m^2 of linon will be needed. That's probably not too expensive for a guy, able to purchase a sword and a big bronze helmet. After all greeks had enough linon to make sails for their ships.
P.S:: I'm not arguing with the idea, that linothoraxes were probably made from lether, just with the cost of linon point.
@kMondrakken I don't set great store by the belly-armour argument, but where else armoured the belly with metal before the chest or shoulders?
@malkrow21 The usual story is that they were abandoned, but yes, they seem to have done away with defective babies, which may partly explain why they died out.
It's possible, yes. I'll be doing a video on this before too long, I hope.
I do get the occasional spam or gibberish, but mainly this means that whenever anyone comments I get an e-mail telling me that they have commented, so then I can give it my immediate attention.
Have become obsessed with watching your many videos old and new, i love history but sometimes have little interest in SOME of the topics you cover, yet find them fascinating! you have an ability to inspire interest big time, should be a teacher! well, i wouldnt want to be one lol but i would have learnt so much more had i had a teacher like you. Your attitude has cheered me right up today aswell after a shite day.
@Supertomiman Yes, but they were not so common, especially at the height of the classical period. Earlier ones were not the sculpted muscle type, either (look up 'bell cuirass').
For the most part I used one very thick layer of leather. Yes, some are shown completely covered, and you could be right, except that they are also portrayed clearly as very stiff, and there seems to be great conservatism/convention in the design of these panoplies.
@FoxtonLOL I suppose first I'd have to collect together, shred, and dry out a load of fish swim bladders to make the glue, or boil up lots of cow hooves. I don't know whether it would be better to create a big slab of multilayered glued cloth and then cut out the cuirass shape, or to glue together ready-shaped pieces of cloth (shrinkage and warpage and crinkling problems?) Possibly you could glue layers of cloth to a stiff core of... leather?
One of my fav armors yours right there specifically.
I've been watching yur channel for like 4 years continous and never got bored but fascinated with your knowledge almost all ancient history, about the Hoplite cuirasses you show in the video, i think yours that you are wearing can be known as a spolas, in my opinion, the Greek Hoplites linothorax depends on the availability of the materials they have, it could be made of whole leather, partly leather-partly metal core-faced with linen or leather or so on. Its based on the individual hoplite's preference, style, and financial affordability of the user themselves, and also the types of material they had in their area..linothorax was like their version of our modern tactical vest, made from either combination of hard and soft materials or wholly soft materials,.that's my opinion only......few years ago I read about a journal (long gone, can't find the website anyway till now)...about ancient south Chinese army wearing a thick paper armour glued together.......can you confirm it if its true......
Sorry nobody replied, but I can confirm the Chinese did use glued paper to make armour at some point. It was glued into scales or lames to make scale & lamelar armour. I think it was finished with a weatherproof laquer. Early medieval period if I remember correctly.
Yeah, somehow, I couldn't find that article on that anymore for years..., If I'm not mistaken the paper armor was popularly used among the chinese soldiers posted in the southern borders of China due to humid weather there, making metal armor uncomfortable to be worn with much sweating they're gonna get if worn there....last time I read that article in 2010 btw...
and the mythbusters guys did made a show on that, I think....
@kMondrakken I wouldn't call the Republican Roman and Samnite tri-disc armour "belly", and they gave no protection to the belly from the side, where a hoplite cuirass is most likely to have scales. Ottoman/moghul armour was again plated more on the front of the torso (video on this to come, but don't hold your breath), and the style involved holding it in place by direct join to the mail all around the edges, so it seems that they plated the bits that were easiest to plate.
Doesn't it get warm in England at all? Do you _always_ wear a sweater?
According to historical records, it got warm once about 370 years ago.
Dthen Must be nice. I live in Florida. The heat during the summer, man it's brutal. Actually I was there during summer. It rained a little at the beginning but for the rest of the two weeks, the weather was beautiful. I was told that I got lucky.
I live in texas, and while it might be more humid in florida i would bet you that it gets at least as hot. I sometimes go through the whole winter without wearing pants, only shorts
Likas Well if it's hotter there than it is here then I feel for you man.
here, we broke some records in 2011
Number of 100-degree days for select cities (as of Tuesday, Sept. 13, 2011)
--Wichita Falls: 100 days
--San Angelo: 96 days
--Waco: 85 days
--Del Rio: 82 days
--Austin (Mabry): 83 days
--Austin (Bergstrom): 69 days
--Abilene: 79 days
--Dallas: 70 days
HAHAH BET YOU CANT BEAT THAT IN FLORIDA
@SarevokRegor Making linen is VERY labour and land intensive, and you need to process it, which is very hard work, and then weave it, and then you need several layers, OR you could just skin a cow.
It is pigment painted on, and there is a depression marking its edge - a little linear dent which I made with a biro that had run out of ink.
I had a go at water hardening it. I cannot say for certain how well it worked.
@tenthousandsuns Of iron, we have no idea. So far as I know, one has been found, and it might have belonged to a king (possibly Philip II of Macedon - Alex's dad), so it could have been exceptional. Bronze was more common, but it seems that in the Classical period, most cuirasses were of other materials.
It looks longer than it is in this video. Partly it's because I made it to fit me and I have a freakishly long torso. Also the big pocketted trousers i am wearing create the illusion. They are shown as about this length, generally, relative to the anatomy of the wearer. Yes, later pteriges are longer, but the artists depicting them always make it clear that they are made of much more flexible stuff.
Really cool construction and video. I was just at a renaissance fair being reminded of how little people care about historical accuracy. I know it's a theme-park fantasy, but WoW armor just grinds my gears.
Totally agree with your assesment of leather vs linen. I also made my corset from leather, but when I learned how much dye would be needed to make it white, I faced mine with bleached linen for temp control. I believe the overhand thrust was used because a wall of shields impedes the undhand thrust too much, plus it easier to aim overhand. Nice post, thanks!!
@lindybeige, This is wonderful -- I have lots of ideas for improvements, but they're probably not historically accurate. A note about sitting: perhaps the Greeks were not sitting on backed chairs in the field. Look at the Japanese samurai sitting in their armour, always on a stool, kneeling or cross-legged.
I mentioned the one literary reference to "Linen corsletted Argives" in the video. This word, used by Homer, is only connected to the cuirass of the later hoplites by modern invention. I could have gone further into detail, but I didn't. My videos are unscripted. If you feel I was trying to mislead you, then I am sorry.
@ComradeAlpharius because it looks nice? Greek national colours?
@legendsofgrine On campaign you would have your armour on much of the time, and even during a battle you would want to rest and still remain ready for action. I think that if you wore armour that you couldn't sit down in for very long, you'd soon decide to redesign it. Do you play sports? What if a designer gave you football kit you couldn't sit down in?
@colddrake80 Interesting thought. I suppose it could help a bit, but only on the right-hand side.
@ramdor2009 So it seems that we are in agreement.
@ComradeAlpharius Yes. It was a matter of pride to look good, and all period depictions of them show them in bright colours. Pink was popular.
I am currently reading a book by Robert Flaceliére who writes something along the lines of "instead of a metal cuirass, they also wore something that protected the chest, of leather or linen, that was made more effective by metal components" (unfortunately I'm reading a greek translation so I may have misquoted him) so your thorax is indeed a historically accurate one
I would also like to add that the thorax of Phillip the second is in a museum somewhere and while it looks like a "linothorax" it was made of iron
I'm heartily unimpressed by your choice of authoritative source, and you seem to be confusing this type of cuirass with the "muscled" or "bell" cuirass, which was often bronze.
*taps the crotch area* "these are quite hard" my God... I'm sorry internet.
@zdkezios The vase paintings I have seen clearly imply that the edges butt against each other rather than overlap.
This video is great and it inspired me to make my 'Hoplite cuirass' also known as a spolas. Your videoes are all great!
2:10 what if you made the front longer while the back ones shorter so you could sit
MrEdgarr I think it wouldn't be historically accurate.
MrEdgarr you can't sit if the ones in front are too long either. They won't bend.
+Mac Rebs But I think he means that the ones in the front would go down to the knees.
Jacob Furrow Oh, yeah. Sorry. Had a brainfart.
Maybe just have one especially long one in the front for, um... protection.
An interesting idea. It's possible, but that would require the corslet to be very accurately fitted, and for the wearer to gain no weight over the years at all (unlike me). It would have to be stiff and springy enough to return to the closed position after every breath, and you would be expanding your chest against this resistance. You could be right, but I suspect that there is something we don't know about this join.
The scales on mine are brass, but others would have been bronze. The surviving greaves we have are bronze, but my reconstructed ones are iron. Iron ones may have existed, but iron doesn't survive nearly as well as bronze. Standard hoplite panoplies had greaves and helmet. Also many foot guards and some thigh guards have survived. I can't think of any evidence for armour on the arms.
@jirisysklatoon Many say this, but this is based on a single use in Homer, who was writing before these were invented, about a time centuries before he was born, so it is extremely unlikely that this word was used of the sort of thing I am wearing in this video.
@noobler9 I do not have any reason to believe that a stab from a spear would be less armour-penetrating than a stab from a sword. The spear is heavier so has more weight behind it, and since the blow comes from further away, the wielder can afford to commit more of his bodyweight to it.
The scales would have been a copper alloy of some sort. Mine are brass. Yes, I made them myself from sheet brass.
@noobler9 Spears broke all the time? Evidence?
Swords used underhand in the phalanx? Evidence?
@IVscythia True, but the difference isn't so massive. I suspect that the answer lies elsewhere.
@Alex4757 Yes, I suppose I could, and more, of course, but with a cost in comfort.
That's true! The belly protection in bronze scales would indeed make you think they used more underhand attacks in general then overhand. I've always wanted to try some hoplite gear out myself so I could finally understand the answer to the question of overhand versus underhand.
I didn't know simple leather would be such a good substitute either. And much easier to produce, so more efficient as well. Great videos!
Just discovered your videos! Given that I am a graduate history student and prospective classicist with regards to ancient warfare, I find your videos to be very helpful!
Superb stuff as always Lloyd.
Yes, other tests on laminates of cloth have been done, and it can be shown to be effective. The 8-min documentary I saw is far from comprehensive, though. Their website claims "About two dozen" references to linen armour. I suspect that this is a number that includes a lot of vague refs shoe-horned to fit. I'd be interested to see what they are.
@jethro035181 This style of armour appears centuries after the Trojan War, and I don't recall much sex in Homer carried out by men in armour.
@cinemonter Yes, the single reference is from Homer. "Corsets"? I suspect you mean "corslets" unless they were all trying to hide their paunches. The term "linothorax" is _derived_ from Homer's poetic term, and now applied to armour from a millennium later.
Now i want to make all kinds of different period armors. That cuirass is amazing. I see more of your vids on the side here, i'm about to check them out.
when I crafted our association's linothorakes we tried with kitchen knives (better steel and edge than any ancient counterpart) and with a full thrust against a 12-ply piece (backed by some cloth, a quilt if I recall correctly) we managed to have the point stick out a little over a centimeter on the other end (less than half an inch) and slashing on it was pretty useless :)
@SuperEnderWiggin Sorry - what can I do to help?
@Tareltonlives But as my archaeology lecturers were fond of reminding us: an absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.
Yes I agree, I'd want more protection for my neck. One problem with the neck, though, it that it does make you very hot if your protect it - like wearing a scarf.
Is anyone else now wondering if hoplites wore some sort of ancient pasties?
@noobler9 The ancient Greeks were not bronze age, they were in the iron age, and the strength of wood did not alter between the two periods. Their swords were clearly designed to be useful at chopping. The kopis/falcatta particularly so.
The underarm can go up to the face or down to the feet, or across to the open side of the next man; the overarm can go down to the upper body and that's it, and that's if you can reach.
@lindybeige
Not before, right after. The first reinforcement right after chain mail in Russia and Central Asia were disc shaped metal plates centered on the belly. The three disc armor of Italic states coveres chest and belly. ottoman cavalry armor is a suit of chain mail and metal plates additionally protecting the belly.
The focus right after you got a general level of protection seems to have been to give additional protection to your belly and that in many cultures over a long period.
Isn't this a bit like saying that you can have an effective pocket-sized shield simply by having very large pockets?
I find your videos VERY interesting and educative. Cheers! :)
I doubt it was normal, but I was using the depiction of anatomy merely as measure of the length of the piece of armour.
Reasonably well, and a lot better than nothing.
There was a documentary about the battle of Thermopolie i saw and it showed a theory on what made the armor. Some called it Lamilar armor. Wool leather bronze and leather again then linin on top. The layers make it stronger and the linin helped keep them cool.
@lindybeige , not quite, hides were expensive too, and the thick areas which would be useful for armour (don't know if you could join up thin bits) could be worth a most of it . Some references state that a buff coat was worth between a 1 pnd to a 1 pound 10 sh at 1646 , and the amount of linen that would cover a similar amount of the body to 16 layers (~ where it and boiled leather are even) would cost 2 pnd. However the relative cost of linens and hide varied over the centuries if anything .
@lindybeige Thank you. Incidentally about the back neck part, I heard in a supposed ninja magazine that there is a part on the back of the neck that would cripple the arms if it was cut into, it just shows the Greeks knew their stuff.
An interesting idea. Would it be flexible, though? Plywood isn't.
@lindybeige
What I meant was that your shoulders and chest armor usually supported each other so they often were already two layered by design (e.g. your shoulder guards overlapping over the chest cuirass) and thus if you could afford additional armor that would usually go to to protect the rather flappy, non bony belly where deep wounds could be just as deadly and usually were even uglier.
I think Galen mentioned a Gladiator just because he somehow survived a stomach wound.
Possible, but it would be a bizarre way to show off. Not that humans don't sometimes devise these. Yes, that one reference to linen corslets is in The Iliad - many centuries before hoplites. Would a linen version be better? I don't think it is known. Is a watch that costs £30,000 better than one that costs £50? Does it tell the time really really well?
I have a very long torso. The pteriges start at approx. my waist. My upper thighs are largely unprotected. Pictures from the period show warriors with their genitals below their pteriges. The pteriges make it possible to bend at the waist.
True, the side seams do not gape on the statues, but they would be idealised, like the rest of the statue. The statues never carry water bottles either, but fighting a battle in Greece without one would be a silly thing to try. The seams are clearly shown as fastening as I fasten them. It is a mystery.
Roman lorica has been found archaeologically, and it is iron. Of course, this doesn't rule out non-iron lorica. I don't know what the written evidence is for iron.
See the description for weight. A sword could, yes, but with difficulty.
@lindybeige Good point, and using leather is pretty common sense with any armor. No one ever wore metal without some sort of silk or cotton or leather underneath it.
A professor at the University of Green Bay in Wisconsin reconstructed linothorax armor with completely accurate materials. As it turns out, it works very well. The team who worked on it found that the linen would actually conform to a person's body shape.
Also, there is evidence of the yoke being attached at two points on the breast, not always the single point with both straps tied together.
I don't recall noticing the Buzz Lightyear head when I first watched this forever ago. A decent chuckle to be had.
@lindybeige
doesn't really matter wether they did not protect the sides, how they attached the armor, etc. the focus of additional armor seemed to often have been the stomach area which makes sense since the lack of a rib cage there meant that any sharp stick or knife could be easily inserted directly into vital organs. It was generally sensible to armor up there, obviously if you could armor even more areas you'd do so as well, it is just more obvious in such armor hybrids that optimize parts.
In places is is more than one layer thick, but much of it is one very thick bit of leather.
Mainstream classical period hoplites. Most cuirasses in this period were not bronze or muscled, but like the type I wear in this video - sort of flat and square.
@lindybeige if im not mistaken, herodetus, or whichever chronicler was present at the battle records the athenians as flying flags of 'blue and white' during the battle of salamis..
so blue and white can be said to be a greek colour for quite a long time.
@malkrow21 I have not independently researched this question, but there is some literary evidence for it. I don't know if the source was Spartan, though. Hobbling them and leaving them on a hillside was one disposal method. Leaving a child to die and killing it are two different things, one might argue, either from a religious perspective or with regard to the amount of guilt one feels.
Pretty accurate for the leader one, but there was some with metal in them. They are not all similar but it's the pretty good lighter one.
you have some of the best historical arguements i heard, when you put it simply it makes sense i also think they reenforced the belly area of the cuirass since it lacks the protection of a mans rib but that theory for the use of spears could win the arguement for the under arm people i have heard of something called the Iphikratean which is a cuirass made of fabric simply quilted together but that wouldnt have been used by classical hoplites since i think it was developed during Alexanders time
You are not wrong. You can say kwi-rass if you want. I've usually said it the way you hear here. I don't recall where I got this pronunciation from, but certainly it was long ago.