Interesting that you said that you start with an unrelated 31 year old general named Matsudaira Hidenaga. When the Tokugawa was in fact the Matsudaira clan before Ieyasu changed his clan name after becoming independent from the Imagawa. He even changed his own name from Motoyasu to Ieyasu. His original name was Matsudaira Motoyasu. The unrelated General might be his uncle. LOL
@@jeffthemercenary tl;dr using Shogun 2 terms, they became the Oda's vassals. Then the Oda were betrayed by an ally right as they were about to unite Japan. The Tokugawa also had a guarantee which meant that they didn't have to fight in the armies of Toyotomi Hideyoshi (the guy who United Japan at the time). This meant that after Japan lost to the Koreans, the Tokugawa were not only strong for being vassals of the previously victorious Oda, but they also were the only clan with a major army in Japan. Some political wrangling later and Ieyasu became Shogun.
@@jeffthemercenary It's very simple actually. They are damn good at political, and very good at seizing opputunities, even betrayed their masters and allies at well. At 1st, they were vassal to Imagawa. After the Imagawa defeat to the Oda in the battle of Okehazama and the old friendship between Nobunaga Oda and Ieyashu Tokugawa, the Ieyashu quickly allied Nobuga betrayed Imagawa, swallowing what left of Imagawa's territories and became a powerhouse. And after that they proved themself to be a loyal and trustworthy subordinate, earned Nobunaga's trust. After Nobunaga was betrayed and assassinated by his righthand-man, instead of seizing powers for themself, they wait and observe, even signing treaty and became ally/vassal with Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Under the shadow of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, The Tokugawa quickly but silently grow in powers and gaining the trust and loyal of many small clans. After Hideyoshi's death and his loyal servant Ishida Mitsunari's defeat in the battle of Sekihahara, pretty much the whole Japan under Ieyashu's grip
I think a good way of looking at it is Oda are the canon winners of the ‘Short Campaign’ and Tokugawa of the long. But it’s almost impossible to recreate really. Tokugawa never controlled loads of Japan, until he controlled all of it. Oda is the most close to reality in terms of how the Shogun campaign plays out - just he never technically became Shogun - he in all intensive purposes sort of was though.
lance gose Yes and no. Hideyoshi *did* unite Japan, but Ieyasu was technically his own man the whole time. plus, Hideyoshi's family's time as shogun died with him as everyone split again after his death. Ieyasu was the support that won the war. he supported Nobunaga, and he conquered central Japan, he supported the Oda at Anegawa, and he won them the battle, he assisted Hideyoshi, and he united the land for a time, then when all was said and done, Ieyasu picked up the pieces and sat down as shogun. He worked towards his goals from the background, his name may not have been on the conquests, but that doesn't mean he was any less important
Oda started it, but Tokugawa finished it. The Tokugawa Clan factually transitioned Japan from a fractured state to a unified state. We call Washington the first president and head of state of the United States even though many before him built the foundations for his success, too. I have no beef with a long-dead clan, although you can call me rude and believe whatever you want.
***** Oda only took central Japan before his death, Hideyoshi united the now fractured Oda clan to his and united the rest, then Ieyasu took the fractures left by Hideyoshi's death and sealed his line as shogun
It ever occur to anyone that Naginata Samurai have in their literal introductionary description, "are weak to arrow fire," yet are one of the best at being able to tank arrows, especially with fully upgraded armor? Always was weird to me
It's because the devs didn't think about it too deeply. Probably. They are slower than most infantry, and so struggle to catch skirmisher. On the flipside, bows do jack shit to them. So, can bows win against them? In a vacuum, sure. Realistically, you probably have some cav specifically to deal with bow units though, or bow of your own to counter fire.
The Tokugawa is the "vanilla" clan in S2TW. No strengths to abuse but no real weaknesses either. Being a vassal is temporary if you help your overlord's enemies.
I recently started a Tokugawa campaign on very hard, I thought breaking vassal was supposed to have an honor hit at any time but I noticed that : If you wait 5 years (20 turns) and then declare war on the imagawa you won't suffer any honor loss, it only hurts relationship with other clans (all of this is much like the results of breaking an alliance after 20 turns)
Or... you could just repeatedly use the "threaten" option in diplomacy with the imagawa by proposing something they'll never agree to, such as demanding they break their alliance with the Takeda.
I tried that and it didn't work, get the relationship down to -200 and they still don't declare war on me. I'm playing on Hard Mode by the way. Any help please?
Be aware that if you use the "threaten" option in diplomacy and the ai still refuses, you are expected to declare war *immediately*. If you fail to do so, your daimyo gets the "empty threats" debuff to his honor. So basically if you use threaten and the Imagawa refuse, you can either declare war on an ally to lose honor, or do nothing and lose honor as well.
Playing the Tokugawa is one of the most enjoyable campaigns. Not because they are good, they aren't that good. But the campaign makes you think more and plan things out accordingly. Nothing as satisfying as becoming Shogun with a "weak" clan. That is why I play the Mori pretty often.
They're not weak, I also for a long time thought like this but aside from your starter location most of the bonuses the clans get are worthless so it's almost the same with the exception that you're free to use whatever unit suits you best. Besides 70% of my campaign are done with Ashigaru and i only played once with Oda.
The Tokugawa campaign was honestly my favourite. Being a vassal of Iwagama actually proved beneficial. I would have been content staying their vassal. They effectively contained Takeda and moved East. Though I accidentally triggered RD early, Iwangama's main armies were closer to fukushiama, and I only had to handle Amako, Chosokabe, and Shoni to my West.
I think the best thing they could have done was boost the tokugawa metsukes overall (more money and happiness when in towns, less cost to bribe), also instead of "better" kisho ninja, give the tokugawa superior samurai-class units similar to the oda's ashigaru and uesugi's warrior monks
This was my first clan I played, due to the fact that I thought they were the date(trait wise) but it was really fun and pretty hard fighting the hojo takeda and imagawa
I have fond memories of this clan since it was the first one I played as. I got rekt at the second turn, restarted and suffered throught the whole campaign due to poor decisions I did in the beggining, but overall had a lot of fun!
I recently played the Tokugawa campaign and here's what l did with the Imagawa-issue. The Imagawa often ally themselves to the Hojo and Takeda clans. My solution to this was to take Owari from the Oda, and then upgrade my ports to Trading Ports. After that l built a Bow Kobaya and sail it eastwards so l can initiate trade with the Takeda and Hojo. Both of them gladly broke their alliance with the Imagawa for some of my warhorses. Then l threatend the Imagawa like 34 times, and my demands were 10000000 koku. My diplomatic relation with the Imagawa were then a bit below -1000. All l had to do then was to wait for the Imagawa to declare war on me, or let the Takeda or Hojo deal with them. In my campaign the Hojo dealt with them right after l threatend the Imagawa. But l'm sure the Imagawa never declared war on me because the Hojo was kicking their butts. Of course, threatening the Imagawa is a bit of a gamble, since if you don't attack them within a couple of years the other clans will look poorly upon you for making empty threats. EDIT: I also found and alternative to your recommended mod. This mod only fixes the Tokugawa and Hattori Kisho Ninja units. No more additional changes than that, for those who want a more vanilla-esque experience. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=746757101
nice! Tbh I got lucky and Imagawa decided to just attack me without provocation 4 turns after I killed Oda. Guess they felt threatened by how fast I was building up my army. I was able to take out Mino before Hattori got to it too. :)
This is really late. But I stop using threats after I lost honour for "empty threats". Which was weird, since I actually declared war right after their refusal to become my vassal and forced them to become vassals after routing their army.
The Tokugawa and Hattori Kisho Ninja units, aren't bugged, the regular ones are. The ninja are only supposed to have 2 ammo for grenades, and all of them used to a long time ago before a patch introduced the bug.
just finished the shogun show and well 😊 allied with Uesugi and Takeda who control all the northern japanese areas while have nearly 9 coastal settlements in the bottom (east) with cities surrounding kyoto❤
Because I wanted to do my initial Legendary campaigns completely unmodded. I used a few graphical mods in later campaigns but nothing that changes gameplay in any way.
though one can use the vassle situation to your advantage cause it will give you time to build up and then make the move for independence and then go for the unification.
Hi, I'm a fan of your vídeos. Could you do one about the kisho ninjas sms how to use them? Because I see that you don't use them but they aren't in your top worst units of the game.
hi, great video. the tokugawa are destroyed after only two turns when you play as an other clan. it is very disapointing cause they historicly won the war. do you know any trick or mod to make them survive longer?
It depends on difficulty I've found out. A lot of people have told me that their Oda usually dies after a few turns and they tend to play on lower difficulties. In my legendary difficulty campaigns, 9/10 times the Oda become the biggest clan in the game.
I was actually having a look at Master of Strategy, which is part of the mod you mentioned. Not sure if I want to jump into combinations of mods right away.
my way to free myself from being a vassal under the Imagawa (normal difficulty): - bribe the Oda army at the border with the Metsuke, then place the entire army in Mikawa (trade alliance with the Kiso) - The Oda then come directly and damage the horse farm - kill the Oda army, then raid Owari in turn 3 - then enter into trade alliances (same round) with the Kitabatake and Saito (at this difficulty level you can also get really big tribute payments) - the Imagawa immediately moved away from the border and attacked the Hojo - the Hojo have entered into an alliance with the Satomi (quite lucky) - The Hattori entered into an alliance with the Tsutsui and attacked the Asai and later the Kitabatake (pretty good because the Hatakeyama were not in danger and later became a good ally) - I took the path of intrigue, expanded both cities and added two Sake taverns and a Buddhist temple to the marketplace - I used my two trading ports to trade with the Chokosabe and Hatakeyama - in the west, the Ikko and Hattori were at each other's throats - in the east everything dragged on a bit, as the Satomi were kept busy by the Satake and the Hojo rushed to their assistance - I waited until the Takeda first attacked the Kiso (from then on a trade alliance is possible through shared borders and you can end the alliance between the Takeda and the Imagawa) and then the Saito - after the Takeda moved north to take care of the Anegakoji and Uesugi, I started a rebellion there and took over Mino - then I sent the monk to the southeast to start an rebellion in Totomi (the Imagawa had made themselves comfortable with their army in their eastern province Suruga and were sabotaged by my two ninjas the whole time (marketplace and farms) - thanks to the rebellion I could now take Totomi - then wait a few more turns and the Hojo finish off the Imagawa - the Hojo really didn't hurry, so in the meantime I grabbed Omi and Iga from the Hattori (rebellion) while they were finishing off the Ikko-Ikki. - I rerolled a few retainers and agent actions several times and it took 7 years and I was finally free in the spring of 1551 - after that all options are open (in the west and northwest the Hattori and Ikko, in the north the Takeda, in the east the Hojo and Satomi This should also work on harder difficulty levels. You just need a bit of luck that the Hattori don't immediately go for the Saito after killing the Asai and the Hojo don't expand completely to the east first. You just can't build up your infrastructure quite as quickly because of less gold.
If they wanted to make the Tokugawa a worthwhile clan they should buff them a lot, like making their bonus to diplomacy actually strong, making more money out of vassals (this is interesting because they start as vassals of the Imagawa and, as they did historically, start as a small and weak clan but eventually submit every other clan under their rule), their metsuke are always recruited with +1 experience no matter what and here comes the good stuff: they're resistant to realm divided. They're not immune to it, but it doesn't imply every other clan will instantly declare war on them. Clans that are already allied to you or have a good relationship with will join you or at least abstain from declaring war for the time being. Tokugawa Ieyasu actually had a lot of support from other important families, it wasn't a me vs everyone type situation, so it would be interesting to see how that would translate to the campaign. Couple this with the extended japan mod and you've got a very strategic campaign that's hard as nails in the early game but much easier in the late game. It might be a bit busted but at least it would make for a different experience
There's one tip about mitigating the penalty from betraying Imagawa that I accidentally discovered yesterday. But it's quite a counter-intuitive and a violation of common sense plan in my opinion. It's as follows: - You have to choose from Turn 1 whether you'd betray them or not. - If you go the betrayal route, Do Not Bribe the Oda army, fight them normally. Preferably with only your Daimyo and your starting force without your other general. This should tips the balance of power enough that you'd get a Heroic Victory out of this. - When said army rout, Do Not have your Daimyo run them all down, let them run! (Yes, really!) And end your turn with Daimyo army right next to Oda's border. - Once you end your turn, the Oda's survivors will join with the Oda Daimyo starting force and march to attack your Daimyo immediately. Again, this should skew the balance of power that you'd get a Heroic Victory out of this battle if you played it right. - Once you beat the Oda and occupied Owari, your Daimyo should have 5 Honors, which will offset the Honor loss from betraying the Imagawa so that your public order don't suffer from Low Honor Daimyo. (Daimyo with less than 3 Honor incurs public unrest.) This has been tested on Normal Difficulty by the way. So the player should have no problem engineering a couple of Heroic Victories for your Daimyo on higher difficulties to get this Honor from Turn 1 and can backstabs the Imagawa right away after Oda is dealt with.
Could you do a bow unit tutorial? Anytime i use bow units with a naginata line, they sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the line to break and rout when the enemy gets close.
I've found that giving archers a target makes them far more effective. Firing at the enemies ranged units is the best tactic as they tend to be easy targets and if you win the ranged fight, you can redeploy your archers behind the enemy and start firing in their backs.
U can defect,just declare war to the imagawa,and ask alliance to the oda,works 70%. Don't worry about your daimyo,just charge him to hell,adopt your general,in turn 2 kick him out of commision,and declare him as heir,an qualla!
For players like me who seek to expand territories nearly every single turn , Tokugawa isn’t that bad. Although there is no unique unit to hire in the early game, I find it very trivial cause Imagawa and Hojo even on legendary difficulty are pretty easy to deal with if you just attack them right after cleaning up Oda, and they both have juicy settlements. Decrease in honor could cause public order issues, but winning a heroic victory in the early game is very viable as well, so it won’t be a difficult fix. Diplomacy absolutely looks abysmal, but it is ok, I can still get money from AI by trade agreement and military access. To sum it all, I feel like Tokugawa is just another version of Oda with weaker units.
Agreed. Sometimes yari wall formation can be broken through with a head on calvalry charge. Things like this make me wonder how these abilities work exacly
according to the game you are paid per turn by vassals, whether that's true or not I have no idea. since you start as a vassel to the imagawa do you pay them to be a vassel?
You do, yes. You can check this in the finances tab under 'Liege Payments' or something along those lines. Can't remember the actual name for it, but it is 'Liege something'.
Does that mod you've linked come with the Radious mod or something? Since installing it, my whole world map's changed, like the Ikko-Ikki having entirely new starting areas and being called the Ishiyama-Hon'ganji (which I presume is that 11 year sieged fortress monastery) and Mori starting out with 14 provinces... Even a clean wipe of the game from my system and reinstall hasn't removed it.
MrSmartDonkeyLP Yeah, I only added and activated that mod and followed your own link. Weird. Anyway, I'll figure how to get it fixed. I've removed Radious in the past... xP
Oh course it is. For the Domination victory condition you have to take the entirety of Japan bar 5 provinces, from there on it's very easy to take the final 5 provinces too.
It's Cherry Blossoms in this compilation: th-cam.com/video/lyieFu7BnHE/w-d-xo.html&list=PLy_Q-5e78AnyBwA-w14rbVK5OAavY_MvN It starts at 18:20 into the video.
if you would like a mod that just fixes the kisho ninja issues for hattori and tokugawa then this is good. It just makes some minor improvements to those units so they are better than standard. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=746757101&searchtext=kisho+ninja
other game like medieval 2 total war you can become a vassal to other factions. my brother did play on very hard campaign and h.r.e offer become their vassal but that game become vassal less annoyed than this game because you still can delcare war on other factions.
the katana did not earn it semi mythical status of the weapon of the samurai until well into the Edo peroid when all civil wars stopped. The Yumi (bow), Naginata and later the Yari (spear) were the real weapons of the samurai.
tokugawa the most boring clan in the game apart from their neat diplomatic bonus. I tend to stack in on honor and tech diplomatic bonus early on to prevent all out war before realm divide. Meaning that the Tokugawa are pretty suitable for this. A missed thing to mention is that you basically need only 2 armies in the beginning. Because you are along a mountain range thus you can use Owari and the final Imagawa province as your 2 anchors. Keeping the middle ones unprotected.
Total war is a fine game, but some things are totally bad. Like Tokugawa after 2 turns is dead. Rebels/enemy clan retreats before the first turn, when I attack. I have this with every clan on every level. This is totally annoying and with some clans, like Date, I have to split them. Send units to the red line, attack with General, to get them together. Does anybody knows how this is possible?????? Otherwise I install the game again.
😮This is the *beauty* of total war. Clans are not rigged and all behave the same as chess pieces. Some clans are hardckdded in a certain way but they all behave similarly and what you see are the consequences. The tokugawa survived because Sengoku Jidai wasn't total war, it had politics, intrigues and other machinations. Medieval II Total War is the prime example, France gets steamrolled most of the time, Portugal took Ireland and the south island next to where Napoleon was born, Sicily took Tunis. Those factions have roughly the same units and what happens is dictated by the a dozen factors. It also can get different results sometimes, and that's how total war is. If you want a practical explanation take a look at Mount & Blade Warband, every time you fire a new campaign everything happens differently, it's almost random.
😮This is the *beauty* of total war. Clans are not rigged and all behave the same as chess pieces. Some clans are hardckdded in a certain way but they all behave similarly and what you see are the consequences. The tokugawa survived because Sengoku Jidai wasn't total war, it had politics, intrigues and other machinations. Medieval II Total War is the prime example, France gets steamrolled most of the time, Portugal took Ireland and the south island next to where Napoleon was born, Sicily took Tunis. Those factions have roughly the same units and what happens is dictated by the a dozen factors. It also can get different results sometimes, and that's how total war is. If you want a practical explanation take a look at Mount & Blade Warband, every time you fire a new campaign everything happens differently, it's almost random.
JonatasAdoM I liked parallels with history in Medieval Total war 1. Playing Berbers and trying to stop Reconquista is super difficult, but that's what happened historically -they were beaten hard. Or playing Russians and trying to stop Mongols - also almost impossible, but that is historically accurate too. In contrast playing byzanty was suuuper easy
Not so sure about that. Hideyoshi did his utmost to put the son of Nobunaga's heir to the head of the Oda, who at that time was only 3 years old, instead of the rightful heir which would be the second son of Nobunaga, so that would allow Hideyoshi to have a puppet while he took control of the Oda clan and start his own ambition.
When I play as Toukogawa, I want to be historical, so I declared war on Imagawa, made aliance with Oda and expanded to North (East on the map Shogun2 map), than there was only five main clans: Chokosabe, Oda, me, Otomo and Date, that had only island where was not important clan Honma, than there was few not important clans, everybody declared war on me, because Otomo was Op and Great Oda became weak, because Otomo invaded it, so he declared war on me and when I loat capital, I deleted the save and started again, now as Otomo, because pew pew and daka daka.
Interesting that you said that you start with an unrelated 31 year old general named Matsudaira Hidenaga. When the Tokugawa was in fact the Matsudaira clan before Ieyasu changed his clan name after becoming independent from the Imagawa. He even changed his own name from Motoyasu to Ieyasu. His original name was Matsudaira Motoyasu.
The unrelated General might be his uncle. LOL
I can't believe the Tokugawa ending is canon all this time
Same playing Shogun 2 makes me wonder why do they became Shogun in the first place?
@@jeffthemercenary tl;dr using Shogun 2 terms, they became the Oda's vassals. Then the Oda were betrayed by an ally right as they were about to unite Japan. The Tokugawa also had a guarantee which meant that they didn't have to fight in the armies of Toyotomi Hideyoshi (the guy who United Japan at the time). This meant that after Japan lost to the Koreans, the Tokugawa were not only strong for being vassals of the previously victorious Oda, but they also were the only clan with a major army in Japan. Some political wrangling later and Ieyasu became Shogun.
@@lambdatan5605 yea if im wrong one of Oda biggest ally betray them and then Oda Nobunaga commit seppuku
@@jeffthemercenary It's very simple actually. They are damn good at political, and very good at seizing opputunities, even betrayed their masters and allies at well. At 1st, they were vassal to Imagawa. After the Imagawa defeat to the Oda in the battle of Okehazama and the old friendship between Nobunaga Oda and Ieyashu Tokugawa, the Ieyashu quickly allied Nobuga betrayed Imagawa, swallowing what left of Imagawa's territories and became a powerhouse. And after that they proved themself to be a loyal and trustworthy subordinate, earned Nobunaga's trust. After Nobunaga was betrayed and assassinated by his righthand-man, instead of seizing powers for themself, they wait and observe, even signing treaty and became ally/vassal with Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Under the shadow of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, The Tokugawa quickly but silently grow in powers and gaining the trust and loyal of many small clans. After Hideyoshi's death and his loyal servant Ishida Mitsunari's defeat in the battle of Sekihahara, pretty much the whole Japan under Ieyashu's grip
I think a good way of looking at it is Oda are the canon winners of the ‘Short Campaign’ and Tokugawa of the long. But it’s almost impossible to recreate really. Tokugawa never controlled loads of Japan, until he controlled all of it.
Oda is the most close to reality in terms of how the Shogun campaign plays out - just he never technically became Shogun - he in all intensive purposes sort of was though.
It's a touch ironic that the most famous clan which ultimately unified Japan sucks in this game.
Andrew Wang To be fair, it wasn't strictly the Tokugaw that unified Japan. It was Toyotomi Hideyoshi, a retainer of the Oda clan.
lance gose Yes and no. Hideyoshi *did* unite Japan, but Ieyasu was technically his own man the whole time. plus, Hideyoshi's family's time as shogun died with him as everyone split again after his death. Ieyasu was the support that won the war. he supported Nobunaga, and he conquered central Japan, he supported the Oda at Anegawa, and he won them the battle, he assisted Hideyoshi, and he united the land for a time, then when all was said and done, Ieyasu picked up the pieces and sat down as shogun. He worked towards his goals from the background, his name may not have been on the conquests, but that doesn't mean he was any less important
Oda started it, but Tokugawa finished it. The Tokugawa Clan factually transitioned Japan from a fractured state to a unified state. We call Washington the first president and head of state of the United States even though many before him built the foundations for his success, too. I have no beef with a long-dead clan, although you can call me rude and believe whatever you want.
***** Oda only took central Japan before his death, Hideyoshi united the now fractured Oda clan to his and united the rest, then Ieyasu took the fractures left by Hideyoshi's death and sealed his line as shogun
Is just to show how serious and hard is to unify Japan XD
Fun fact: the tokugawa clan was once called the matsudaira clan and ieyasu tokugawa was once motoyasu matsudaira.
It ever occur to anyone that Naginata Samurai have in their literal introductionary description, "are weak to arrow fire," yet are one of the best at being able to tank arrows, especially with fully upgraded armor?
Always was weird to me
It's because the devs didn't think about it too deeply. Probably.
They are slower than most infantry, and so struggle to catch skirmisher. On the flipside, bows do jack shit to them. So, can bows win against them? In a vacuum, sure. Realistically, you probably have some cav specifically to deal with bow units though, or bow of your own to counter fire.
The Tokugawa is the "vanilla" clan in S2TW. No strengths to abuse but no real weaknesses either. Being a vassal is temporary if you help your overlord's enemies.
I recently started a Tokugawa campaign on very hard, I thought breaking vassal was supposed to have an honor hit at any time but I noticed that :
If you wait 5 years (20 turns) and then declare war on the imagawa you won't suffer any honor loss, it only hurts relationship with other clans (all of this is much like the results of breaking an alliance after 20 turns)
Or... you could just repeatedly use the "threaten" option in diplomacy with the imagawa by proposing something they'll never agree to, such as demanding they break their alliance with the Takeda.
I tried that and it didn't work, get the relationship down to -200 and they still don't declare war on me. I'm playing on Hard Mode by the way. Any help please?
Be aware that if you use the "threaten" option in diplomacy and the ai still refuses, you are expected to declare war *immediately*. If you fail to do so, your daimyo gets the "empty threats" debuff to his honor. So basically if you use threaten and the Imagawa refuse, you can either declare war on an ally to lose honor, or do nothing and lose honor as well.
@@AvengerAtIlipa lol thats actually pretty funny. the trait.
Playing the Tokugawa is one of the most enjoyable campaigns. Not because they are good, they aren't that good. But the campaign makes you think more and plan things out accordingly. Nothing as satisfying as becoming Shogun with a "weak" clan. That is why I play the Mori pretty often.
They're not weak, I also for a long time thought like this but aside from your starter location most of the bonuses the clans get are worthless so it's almost the same with the exception that you're free to use whatever unit suits you best.
Besides 70% of my campaign are done with Ashigaru and i only played once with Oda.
You sound likes expected it to be insanely strong at beginning, even Oda were not.
The Tokugawa campaign was honestly my favourite. Being a vassal of Iwagama actually proved beneficial. I would have been content staying their vassal. They effectively contained Takeda and moved East. Though I accidentally triggered RD early, Iwangama's main armies were closer to fukushiama, and I only had to handle Amako, Chosokabe, and Shoni to my West.
These clan overview videos are incredibly relaxing. I haven't played the game in 2 years, but I still come here now and then.
To me, the only two cool things about this clan is the historical and the color of this clan.
White + Gold = The best!
Great overview of what I found to be a fun but difficult clan to play as
I think the best thing they could have done was boost the tokugawa metsukes overall (more money and happiness when in towns, less cost to bribe), also instead of "better" kisho ninja, give the tokugawa superior samurai-class units similar to the oda's ashigaru and uesugi's warrior monks
This was my first clan I played, due to the fact that I thought they were the date(trait wise) but it was really fun and pretty hard fighting the hojo takeda and imagawa
I like the mod you posted in the description. :)
Let's play Tokugawa now.
I have fond memories of this clan since it was the first one I played as. I got rekt at the second turn, restarted and suffered throught the whole campaign due to poor decisions I did in the beggining, but overall had a lot of fun!
I recently played the Tokugawa campaign and here's what l did with the Imagawa-issue.
The Imagawa often ally themselves to the Hojo and Takeda clans. My solution to this was to take Owari from the Oda, and then upgrade my ports to Trading Ports. After that l built a Bow Kobaya and sail it eastwards so l can initiate trade with the Takeda and Hojo. Both of them gladly broke their alliance with the Imagawa for some of my warhorses.
Then l threatend the Imagawa like 34 times, and my demands were 10000000 koku. My diplomatic relation with the Imagawa were then a bit below -1000. All l had to do then was to wait for the Imagawa to declare war on me, or let the Takeda or Hojo deal with them. In my campaign the Hojo dealt with them right after l threatend the Imagawa. But l'm sure the Imagawa never declared war on me because the Hojo was kicking their butts.
Of course, threatening the Imagawa is a bit of a gamble, since if you don't attack them within a couple of years the other clans will look poorly upon you for making empty threats.
EDIT: I also found and alternative to your recommended mod. This mod only fixes the Tokugawa and Hattori Kisho Ninja units. No more additional changes than that, for those who want a more vanilla-esque experience.
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=746757101
nice! Tbh I got lucky and Imagawa decided to just attack me without provocation 4 turns after I killed Oda. Guess they felt threatened by how fast I was building up my army. I was able to take out Mino before Hattori got to it too. :)
Your profile pic reminds me of my old days
This is really late. But I stop using threats after I lost honour for "empty threats". Which was weird, since I actually declared war right after their refusal to become my vassal and forced them to become vassals after routing their army.
3:17 - Camping your army in the forest to make your allies turn on you sounds exactly like something Ieyasu would do.
The Tokugawa and Hattori Kisho Ninja units, aren't bugged, the regular ones are. The ninja are only supposed to have 2 ammo for grenades, and all of them used to a long time ago before a patch introduced the bug.
just finished the shogun show and well 😊 allied with Uesugi and Takeda who control all the northern japanese areas while have nearly 9 coastal settlements in the bottom (east) with cities surrounding kyoto❤
Y'know it's really amazing cause I have never seen you utilize that mod that you mentioned in the video.
Because I wanted to do my initial Legendary campaigns completely unmodded. I used a few graphical mods in later campaigns but nothing that changes gameplay in any way.
though one can use the vassle situation to your advantage cause it will give you time to build up and then make the move for independence and then go for the unification.
Would love to see a series of Clan Overview for the Rise of the Samurai Clans.
Thanks for the great video man! 👍
This was the clan that I cleared it with first, bias choice from the name and ninja's, but I didn't really mind.
Hi, I'm a fan of your vídeos. Could you do one about the kisho ninjas sms how to use them? Because I see that you don't use them but they aren't in your top worst units of the game.
hi, great video. the tokugawa are destroyed after only two turns when you play as an other clan. it is very disapointing cause they historicly won the war. do you know any trick or mod to make them survive longer?
Huh, every time I play the Oda are destroyed and the Tokugawa survive.
RED Doktor it is the contrary for me. tokugawa never survive first oda's assault
It depends on difficulty I've found out. A lot of people have told me that their Oda usually dies after a few turns and they tend to play on lower difficulties. In my legendary difficulty campaigns, 9/10 times the Oda become the biggest clan in the game.
Well historically speaking in the time the game is set the Oda wins. I think the Oda divide and then Tokugawa won.
I have seen tokugawa get big, holding like 5 provinces in my legendary campaign
Tokugawa are the underdogs, absolutely love playing as them.
I recommend you look into a challenging S2 mod called Master of Ambition, it applies many changes... Maybe think on making it a campaign.
I was actually having a look at Master of Strategy, which is part of the mod you mentioned. Not sure if I want to jump into combinations of mods right away.
MrSmartDonkeyLP It's a compilation, but it's easy to install.
If you are interested, contact a steam user named WhiskeySykes
my way to free myself from being a vassal under the Imagawa (normal difficulty):
- bribe the Oda army at the border with the Metsuke, then place the entire army in Mikawa (trade alliance with the Kiso)
- The Oda then come directly and damage the horse farm
- kill the Oda army, then raid Owari in turn 3
- then enter into trade alliances (same round) with the Kitabatake and Saito (at this difficulty level you can also get really big tribute payments)
- the Imagawa immediately moved away from the border and attacked the Hojo
- the Hojo have entered into an alliance with the Satomi (quite lucky)
- The Hattori entered into an alliance with the Tsutsui and attacked the Asai and later the Kitabatake (pretty good because the Hatakeyama were not in danger and later became a good ally)
- I took the path of intrigue, expanded both cities and added two Sake taverns and a Buddhist temple to the marketplace
- I used my two trading ports to trade with the Chokosabe and Hatakeyama
- in the west, the Ikko and Hattori were at each other's throats
- in the east everything dragged on a bit, as the Satomi were kept busy by the Satake and the Hojo rushed to their assistance
- I waited until the Takeda first attacked the Kiso (from then on a trade alliance is possible through shared borders and you can end the alliance between the Takeda and the Imagawa) and then the Saito
- after the Takeda moved north to take care of the Anegakoji and Uesugi, I started a rebellion there and took over Mino
- then I sent the monk to the southeast to start an rebellion in Totomi (the Imagawa had made themselves comfortable with their army in their eastern province Suruga and were sabotaged by my two ninjas the whole time (marketplace and farms)
- thanks to the rebellion I could now take Totomi
- then wait a few more turns and the Hojo finish off the Imagawa
- the Hojo really didn't hurry, so in the meantime I grabbed Omi and Iga from the Hattori (rebellion) while they were finishing off the Ikko-Ikki.
- I rerolled a few retainers and agent actions several times and it took 7 years and I was finally free in the spring of 1551
- after that all options are open (in the west and northwest the Hattori and Ikko, in the north the Takeda, in the east the Hojo and Satomi
This should also work on harder difficulty levels. You just need a bit of luck that the Hattori don't immediately go for the Saito after killing the Asai and the Hojo don't expand completely to the east first. You just can't build up your infrastructure quite as quickly because of less gold.
Last night i think shogun with the diplomatie from tree kingdoms was crazy
Tokugawa Iyeyasu- nailed it😎😎
Love your vids keep it up. Are there any mods that you like a lot? I'm trying to figure out what some useful utilitarian mods are.
The only utility mod I use is the 'Extended Camera Mod' which allows you to zoom out further on the battle map, that's it.
lol tokugawa become terrifying and still vassal to imagawa in my brother takeda legendary campaign.
Love your videos. When are expansion pack clans (RoS and FoS) coming?
Likely never doing RotS, but the FotS clan overviews will be coming soon.
I found that if imagawa at war with some one, you can attack that faction as well.
If they wanted to make the Tokugawa a worthwhile clan they should buff them a lot, like making their bonus to diplomacy actually strong, making more money out of vassals (this is interesting because they start as vassals of the Imagawa and, as they did historically, start as a small and weak clan but eventually submit every other clan under their rule), their metsuke are always recruited with +1 experience no matter what and here comes the good stuff: they're resistant to realm divided. They're not immune to it, but it doesn't imply every other clan will instantly declare war on them. Clans that are already allied to you or have a good relationship with will join you or at least abstain from declaring war for the time being. Tokugawa Ieyasu actually had a lot of support from other important families, it wasn't a me vs everyone type situation, so it would be interesting to see how that would translate to the campaign. Couple this with the extended japan mod and you've got a very strategic campaign that's hard as nails in the early game but much easier in the late game. It might be a bit busted but at least it would make for a different experience
I wonder what is next for this series
I always try ally with them so I can save them before they get killed off
And also the masters of pissing me off every time I try to play it
There's one tip about mitigating the penalty from betraying Imagawa that I accidentally discovered yesterday. But it's quite a counter-intuitive and a violation of common sense plan in my opinion. It's as follows:
- You have to choose from Turn 1 whether you'd betray them or not.
- If you go the betrayal route, Do Not Bribe the Oda army, fight them normally. Preferably with only your Daimyo and your starting force without your other general. This should tips the balance of power enough that you'd get a Heroic Victory out of this.
- When said army rout, Do Not have your Daimyo run them all down, let them run! (Yes, really!) And end your turn with Daimyo army right next to Oda's border.
- Once you end your turn, the Oda's survivors will join with the Oda Daimyo starting force and march to attack your Daimyo immediately. Again, this should skew the balance of power that you'd get a Heroic Victory out of this battle if you played it right.
- Once you beat the Oda and occupied Owari, your Daimyo should have 5 Honors, which will offset the Honor loss from betraying the Imagawa so that your public order don't suffer from Low Honor Daimyo. (Daimyo with less than 3 Honor incurs public unrest.)
This has been tested on Normal Difficulty by the way. So the player should have no problem engineering a couple of Heroic Victories for your Daimyo on higher difficulties to get this Honor from Turn 1 and can backstabs the Imagawa right away after Oda is dealt with.
Could you do a bow unit tutorial? Anytime i use bow units with a naginata line, they sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the line to break and rout when the enemy gets close.
I've found that giving archers a target makes them far more effective. Firing at the enemies ranged units is the best tactic as they tend to be easy targets and if you win the ranged fight, you can redeploy your archers behind the enemy and start firing in their backs.
If only this game have the Tokugawa an event where they can chose to defect to the Oda as an ally
U can defect,just declare war to the imagawa,and ask alliance to the oda,works 70%.
Don't worry about your daimyo,just charge him to hell,adopt your general,in turn 2 kick him out of commision,and declare him as heir,an qualla!
then what? fight alongside Oda until some faction wipe them out then you go after the said faction for revenge??
yes
sound legit.
Are you able to complete achievements if you mod the game?
i just using Tokugawa clan and found it my food provide are minus down to -61. I guess I took too much unit, around 25k unit all
I just come to see Honda Tadakatsu
Does the Bonus Unit work with Radious mod?
Surely there is a mod fix for the K Ninja
I wonder why Hattori & Tokugawa Kisho Ninja has far less ammo than the regular one.. 🤔
For players like me who seek to expand territories nearly every single turn , Tokugawa isn’t that bad. Although there is no unique unit to hire in the early game, I find it very trivial cause Imagawa and Hojo even on legendary difficulty are pretty easy to deal with if you just attack them right after cleaning up Oda, and they both have juicy settlements. Decrease in honor could cause public order issues, but winning a heroic victory in the early game is very viable as well, so it won’t be a difficult fix. Diplomacy absolutely looks abysmal, but it is ok, I can still get money from AI by trade agreement and military access. To sum it all, I feel like Tokugawa is just another version of Oda with weaker units.
I think you should make a ability tutorial next...I really wanna know how they really work because the game's info is so bare bones
You mean like Inspire, Rally, Banzai, etc?
Exactly! I know it might be a shorter video then usal but you already did a agent video why not go all the way with your tutorials!
Agreed. Sometimes yari wall formation can be broken through with a head on calvalry charge. Things like this make me wonder how these abilities work exacly
according to the game you are paid per turn by vassals, whether that's true or not I have no idea. since you start as a vassel to the imagawa do you pay them to be a vassel?
You do, yes. You can check this in the finances tab under 'Liege Payments' or something along those lines. Can't remember the actual name for it, but it is 'Liege something'.
The canon victor
Great video, but you forgot to put the link to the Extended Clan Bonus Mod. Kept up the great work :)
Pfft, you're crazy. It's been there the entire time, I definitely didn't just put it there after several people told me about it.
Did they ever fix that bug? Sounds pretty horrendous but easy to fix.
I still can't believe they never bothered to patch the superior kisho ninjas smh
Does that mod you've linked come with the Radious mod or something? Since installing it, my whole world map's changed, like the Ikko-Ikki having entirely new starting areas and being called the Ishiyama-Hon'ganji (which I presume is that 11 year sieged fortress monastery) and Mori starting out with 14 provinces... Even a clean wipe of the game from my system and reinstall hasn't removed it.
Are you sure you didn't accidentally install something else because that's definitely not what that mod in the description does.
MrSmartDonkeyLP Yeah, I only added and activated that mod and followed your own link. Weird. Anyway, I'll figure how to get it fixed. I've removed Radious in the past... xP
you get 3K free income if u ask teh saito and the kisho for trading and ask them for moeny
MY FIRST CAMPAIGN WAS TOKUGAWA!
One question:
A fix mod waa releases that solved the problem of the kisho ninjas?
Nope, there’s mods that fix it though.
Meanwhile: I wanna fight SmartDonkey... Like... Even legendary got boring :D
Hey SmartDonkey i have a question to you. Is it possible to conquer all of japan in singleplayer? Ive never even gotten close :) .
Oh course it is. For the Domination victory condition you have to take the entirety of Japan bar 5 provinces, from there on it's very easy to take the final 5 provinces too.
Thanks!
Black Ship, how and when I can find?
It pops up after a while in the west and it'll either go around the island clockwise or counter-clockwise, it's random.
4:21 that's uh
that's a
that's a bit sussy
What is the name of the song in the background?
It's Cherry Blossoms in this compilation: th-cam.com/video/lyieFu7BnHE/w-d-xo.html&list=PLy_Q-5e78AnyBwA-w14rbVK5OAavY_MvN
It starts at 18:20 into the video.
What do you do to your starting armies once late game comes? Do you disband your ashis to make room for samurai upkeep?
if you would like a mod that just fixes the kisho ninja issues for hattori and tokugawa then this is good. It just makes some minor improvements to those units so they are better than standard. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=746757101&searchtext=kisho+ninja
That is a good suggestion too for those who only want to fix the Kisho Ninja bugs.
This campaign is both hard because of how you start and easy because of how much money you can make early on. It's weird.
yea finally i think this is hardest clan to play since you start with vassal. is it a possible to become a vassal to other clans?
Not as far as I'm aware.
other game like medieval 2 total war you can become a vassal to other factions. my brother did play on very hard campaign and h.r.e offer become their vassal but that game become vassal less annoyed than this game because you still can delcare war on other factions.
Why can no clan recuit supperior naginata or Yari units?
Olanchez Die Legende I think oda can recruit superior yari ashigaru
Ali Amarneh Amarneh i mean Superior yari and naginata samurai
Olanchez Die Legende japan wasn’t known for its halberd-things
the katana did not earn it semi mythical status of the weapon of the samurai until well into the Edo peroid when all civil wars stopped. The Yumi (bow), Naginata and later the Yari (spear) were the real weapons of the samurai.
as said,katanas are cool but japan military was much more yari/naginata/bow cavalry focused.
Do a video on the Toyotomi lol
Its not in the game. There is a mod. Also i would love if CA would ad the Imagawa and the Toyotomi.
tokugawa the most boring clan in the game apart from their neat diplomatic bonus. I tend to stack in on honor and tech diplomatic bonus early on to prevent all out war before realm divide. Meaning that the Tokugawa are pretty suitable for this.
A missed thing to mention is that you basically need only 2 armies in the beginning. Because you are along a mountain range thus you can use Owari and the final Imagawa province as your 2 anchors. Keeping the middle ones unprotected.
tokugawa is pretty op though, 3 recruitment slots in each province
What? They don’t get any more than other clans, maybe you’re using a mod?
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP I dont remember, most likely not
Well then there's something else wrong with your game, because the Tokugawa don't get any unique bonuses to recruitment slots in their towns.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP or i probally got alotta money for good castles
Total war is a fine game, but some things are totally bad. Like Tokugawa after 2 turns is dead. Rebels/enemy clan retreats before the first turn, when I attack. I have this with every clan on every level. This is totally annoying and with some clans, like Date, I have to split them. Send units to the red line, attack with General, to get them together. Does anybody knows how this is possible?????? Otherwise I install the game again.
😮This is the *beauty* of total war. Clans are not rigged and all behave the same as chess pieces. Some clans are hardckdded in a certain way but they all behave similarly and what you see are the consequences.
The tokugawa survived because Sengoku Jidai wasn't total war, it had politics, intrigues and other machinations.
Medieval II Total War is the prime example, France gets steamrolled most of the time, Portugal took Ireland and the south island next to where Napoleon was born,
Sicily took Tunis. Those factions have roughly the same units and what happens is dictated by the a dozen factors.
It also can get different results sometimes, and that's how total war is. If you want a practical explanation take a look at Mount & Blade Warband, every time you fire a new campaign everything happens differently, it's almost random.
😮This is the *beauty* of total war. Clans are not rigged and all behave the same as chess pieces. Some clans are hardckdded in a certain way but they all behave similarly and what you see are the consequences.
The tokugawa survived because Sengoku Jidai wasn't total war, it had politics, intrigues and other machinations.
Medieval II Total War is the prime example, France gets steamrolled most of the time, Portugal took Ireland and the south island next to where Napoleon was born,
Sicily took Tunis. Those factions have roughly the same units and what happens is dictated by the a dozen factors.
It also can get different results sometimes, and that's how total war is. If you want a practical explanation take a look at Mount & Blade Warband, every time you fire a new campaign everything happens differently, it's almost random.
JonatasAdoM I liked parallels with history in Medieval Total war 1. Playing Berbers and trying to stop Reconquista is super difficult, but that's what happened historically -they were beaten hard. Or playing Russians and trying to stop Mongols - also almost impossible, but that is historically accurate too. In contrast playing byzanty was suuuper easy
So hard though
pity the game dont have toyotomi... ca could have put some mechanic in there to let us play as toyotomi...
the one who betrays oda is akechi mitsuhide not hashiba hideyoshi aka toyotomi hideyoshi
Not so sure about that. Hideyoshi did his utmost to put the son of Nobunaga's heir to the head of the Oda, who at that time was only 3 years old, instead of the rightful heir which would be the second son of Nobunaga, so that would allow Hideyoshi to have a puppet while he took control of the Oda clan and start his own ambition.
Just make them rebel
Tokugawa: So powerful in real life, CA decided to nerf them.
They deserved better
ironicly the Tokugawa shouldn't be a vassal of the Imagawa yet it only happen some years later
Wait? Wheres the mod?
Oops, I definitely didn't forget or anything.
Okay, I forgot, adding it now. Thanks for the heads-up!
Thanks! Also, that was quick!
When I play as Toukogawa, I want to be historical, so I declared war on Imagawa, made aliance with Oda and expanded to North (East on the map Shogun2 map), than there was only five main clans: Chokosabe, Oda, me, Otomo and Date, that had only island where was not important clan Honma, than there was few not important clans, everybody declared war on me, because Otomo was Op and Great Oda became weak, because Otomo invaded it, so he declared war on me and when I loat capital, I deleted the save and started again, now as Otomo, because pew pew and daka daka.
So basically the worst clan in the game....
Great video as always donkey, keep it up!
Ironic since they won in the end ;)
Weakest clan in the field in my Opinion.
Mori has Wako early game but these guys got nearly nothing!
Which is weird, because in real life they actually won the war.
Oda won.But they just took the spoils after their master die.
It's Toyotomi Hideyoshi who did successfully ruled every corner of Japan. Then he died. Then Sekigahara then Boom, Tokugawa Ieyasu.
Ieyasu didn't won against Hideyoshi..... He just avoid war and outlived him.
Then what? Ieyasu did ultimately surrender......
juju
march
H
So they seriously never fixed the ninjas? That's annoying.
*plays Darth Mod anyways*