History of WWI Primer 071: Italian Vetterli-Vitali 1870/87 Documentary
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ย. 2024
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Othais and Mae delve into the story of this WWI classic. Complete with history, function, and live fire demonstration.
C&Rsenal presents its WWI Primer series; covering the firearms of this historic conflict one at a time in honor of the centennial anniversary. Join us every other Tuesday!
Additional reading:
The Italian Vetterli Rifle
Robert Wilsey
Original music provided by Melissa Hyman of The Moon and You
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Safe range space thanks to Triana Protection
In collaboration with The Great War
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Additional photos thanks to Rock Island Auction
Ammunition data thanks to DrakeGmbH
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Animation Music from Vector Smash
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I freaking love the late 1800s. Guns like this put into perspective how quickly technology advanced. In the 1870s we were still moving away from caplocks, coal and sail ships were becoming more common, and the fastest ways to travel were horses or steam trains.
Then by WWI we had repeating rifles, dreadnoughts and ships that only had dedicated engines with no sails, and automobiles and planes were coming into their own.
Imagine being alive in that time period and watching everything change so quickly over your lifetime.
I look at home computer technology the same way. From the Commodore 64 to what would have been considered supercomputers in the palm of my hands. Currently typing this on a phone and posting it on the internet, which didn't exist for civilians when I was born.
@@MrDmitriRavenoff I was about to say the same, you took the words out of my mouth. Everything has changed since we were born, mostly because of technology. But I imagine the changes that happened back the 1800's was more significant to people.
I recall, perhaps from a VSauce video, this interview of a woman who was alive from the 1800s to the 1900s, and she was more impressed by a bridge being built than man landing on the moon, due to having witnessed the speed at which technology had developed.
Idea, a Vetterli repo that has a studier bolt, an actually safety, some weight reduction, ect. And call it the Betterli
Keegan Counterman and in a more common caliber.
+1 Pun
.45-70 or .30-30 for chambering, maybe .38-40 for really passionate handloaders.
Oh my God yes!
Or in italian the "Migliorelli"
I’ve a m1870/87/15 dated 1891 that was redone in 6.5m. It was captured by my great great grandfather in 1917ish. He was an officer in the Austrian Hungarian army.
FranzAntonMesmer the rifle is just over 10 pounds.
i think someone just called out the next video.
I can't believe that there is a lot of these rifles circulating in the civilian gun market. The trigger guard and magazine design look so quaint. It resembles one of those elaborately adorned flintlocks that were once rewarded to royalty.
Was it heavy to handle it? As I recall, rebored 6.5m m1870s were hefty to carry.
Joseph Satri Cleofe Villanueva yep I meant that.
To quote a Ye Olde Hunter ad from the 1950's: "The gun that would have won the Korean War, if the Chinese were unarmed."
Really? That’s hilarious
lol
Lol
I bought a Vetterli-Vitali M1870/87 a few days ago. Got the Vetterli yesterday. Fired it 2 times earlier today. This rifle is 100% awesome! It is my favorite rifle right now. It is a really weird and obscure rifle. Very long and heavy also.
And I didn't need any license for it since black-powder weapons produced before or in 1890 doesn't need any license or paperwork in my country, Norway.
आपके देश में लाईसेंस होता नहीं है
@@pilotbarusarao8728 No, we don't need a license for black-powder weapons made before or in 1890. But a weapon made after 1890 can also be license-free, as long as it's black-powder and identical to those made before 1890. For modern weapons you need a license.
Вам везе...
If it fails as a gun, you can still use it as a stick.
TAOFLEDERMAUS If it fails as a human being, promote it.
Plenty of wars have been won with sticks
Hell if you go break it down all of warfare is still pretty much just throwing rocks and stabbing people with pointy sticks even to this day. The rocks might be going way faster and the pointy sticks are made of metal but the function is still pretty much the same.
JonMacFhearghuis correction if it fails as a human being and business owner elect it president apparently
Laughingpug sometimes the sticks explode
Aw yes, Othais has gotten to the Ｌｏｎｇ Ｂｏｉ
"they find it especially hard to do while prone".
It's very forward thinking for 1870. Muzzleloaders were not loaded at all while in prone position, the first massive military use of breechloaders happened only four years before, but the Prussians did not really change their infantry tactics while using them (nor they did in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war). To think of masses of soldiers firing while prone was very advanced.
Muzzleloaders can't really be reloaded while prone, but they *can* be reloaded while *supine*, if you have adequately practiced doing so. This means that troops who are firing while prone can reload without rising (and exposing themselves to enemy fire), but they have to be fighting in sufficiently loose order that each man has room to roll over to reload. There were specialized units that trained in doing this in the American Civil War (not sure about earlier).
Last time I was this early, Cadorna wasn't locked in stalemate on the Isonzo River.
tman008 love it
Seems like Cadorna was always at stalemate, the lovable goof.
do not be disrespectful with the Field Marshal Green Mario Cadorna
Dude is still stuck in that stalemate
lol
Ive bought two of these over the years. Never shot, just displayed on the wall. They just look cool as hell, and are pretty cheep like most Italian surplus is. Definitely one of the most "Victorian era" looking guns of that period.
I love the vetterli designs
Italy definitely remembered those Vitali chargers, the Breda M30 has a 20 round double stack charger. The sound of loading it is so satisfying.
I like how it looks super archaic and steampunk but is actually a really modern (for the time) and clever design.
If you compare the Vetterli to the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin 1889 you can clearly see that the bolt system is the same just made into a straight-pull by replacing the handle with a camming groove.
123nicefellow123 Great point. So interesting seeing the evolution of these systems throughout history
I couldn’t quite place it but I saw the same thing. I wonder if it’s coincidental or if it’s truly inspired by this design.
@@john-paulsilke893 I know this comment is a few years old, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents here to say it almost definitely wasn’t coincidental. Col. Schmidt was a director at SIG and later W+F Bern, while Col. Rubin worked at Eidg. Munitionsfabrik Thun (today part of RUAG). They would have absolutely been exposed to (if not experimenting directly on) the Vetterli system. Pretty awesome stuff. :)
@@john-paulsilke893 The Vetterli was in service with the Swiss as well.
I’d love to see an episode on the Swiss vetterli at some point. As much as I found BotR’s works useful it didn’t satisfy my desire for overkill detail and advanced overview of the operation of the gun. Love to see your work and even if you never get to the vetterli I always enjoy it and at this point I’ll keep referring you if anyone asks me about firearms.
I do want to point out a small error about the tolerances on the bolt of the Vetterli-Vitali: these issues weren’t on the original 1870 model, but happened due to the conversion. Aside from that, please keep up the great work of being of the few strictly educational gun channels of the highest quality around.
I just bought one of these last night at an auction for only 90 dollars. I didn't know much about it at the time but now I do. Thanks for the in depth video.
Thanks Othais and Mae. Its refreshing to have someplace that isn't dripping with politics for once. Even if i would potentially agree with those politics, its still very nice and refreshing regardless. Words can not describe how tired of politics i am at this point, even if its political talk in favor of my own positions. Honestly, thank you guys.
I hate when things that shouldn't be political cause people to be fervent because they form part of their personal identity with that thing - video games and firearms being two examples. The community is rife with people who can't separate themselves from the subject and thus can't act logically about the thing or converse civilly about the topic.
@@fuzzydunlop7928 well to be fair theres alot of politics involved even if you take a show like this and show it to someone who doesnt have already a decent interest into firearm history without stepping into politics.
I was whatching this episode on my break with headphones on and someone tried to annoy me with why am i whatchign a gun video.
even though im on break in my fuckign car with headphones on....
@@KG-jm1zl considering interest in guns in the western world is usually associated with right wing politics, especially the kind that caused the capitol insurrection, they have a reason to be very suspicious, even if it is stupid.
@@3asianassassin It's funny how the use of a single word can tell you so much about a person.
The "InSuRrReCtIoN" of January 6th - when the US government was, supposedly, almost toppled by a crowd of boomers and people with zip ties. Cool story, needs more dragons.
You can't run from the Mosin forever Othais.
He's avoiding it because he knows he'll have to call a spade a spade and all the garbage rod fanboys will mail him turds.
Researching on the Mosin requires a lot of translating. That is why he is taking so long. Specially when you have to translate the Cyrillic to Latin alphabet then translate it into English.
Watch him.
Othais is just saving the best for last.
I can't wait either, I've been holding my breath since the episode 1. But it won't be an easy episode and I know like many others that it's a good rifle, but it's nothing to write home about, except that it did good at being a staple.
I was privileged to handle an example of both the Swiss and Italian rifles at my Grandfather's antique shop as a young teen. Neither was fully functional due to being worn out but to a gun-crazed kid, they were the coolest, and oldest, guns I had seen up to that point.
I was having a bad day until I got a notification that C&Rsenal posted a new primer video
Feel ya man, going through a breakup. Othais calms all
me too
CARTRIDGE_GRAM things will get better man hang in there
Please tell me you did not break up with each other
Right? Ugh every morning I wake up expecting somebody else that I used to respect to come out against guns. Like x products or Chubb or bank of America or PayPal ECT.
My local gun shop has one of these on their "not for sale " wall. its in sweet condition I've been trying to convince the shop owner to sell it to me for years. Also thank you for staying neutral or out of the political bullcrap. I love your channel for the unbiased and up front history, mechanics, and shooting. keep going strong!
Really been looking forward to this one. Now I want to buy one..... Thanks Othias
I appreciate your efforts in bringing the history of these firearms to us. Keep up the great job!
You and Mae are awesome, thank you so much for all the work and effort you two put into these videos. (same goes for Mark actually)
Being such a good shot, Mae can hold a gun however she damn pleases.
There is one thing about Mae's shooting that I find weird. Every time she pulls the trigger, she flinch and close her eyes.
Like she is a little bit scared of the gun. She is such an experienced shooter and have shot so many guns, so this surprises me.
@@WhattAreYouSaying Flinching would be closing her eyes before the round goes off, Mae closes her eyes after. Not such a big deal, I'd say.
Fantastic research and narration by Fidel Romano there. (couldn't resist! ;) You are such a good speaker, I initially thought you were a reservoir of all the history! And the sharp-witted and sharpshooting Mae is always a delight. The fact that you guys get to report about and even fire these antiquities without actually purchasing them is well, enviable! Also nice sidestepping of politics. Consistent great presentation!
yes! black powder designs coming at ya! can't wait for the others
Switzerland approves C&Rsenal content.
Always kinda figured that's how Mae shot a rifle. Also now if I get one of these I'm gonna call it a "Japanese toy" and direct people to this video for the reference.
I bet it was even in Italian
May, Haters are gonna hate. I sort of envy you. As a dude, I'd like to try out a lot of the cool guns you get to.
Myra Madd I always feel bad too because if we're limited on ammo it means the boys don't get to play any.
On Guns&ammo issue May 13, 2019 in an article by Garry James he says: "The bolt is locked only by a single rear lug, which is not the most robust action and of questionable strength when these rifles were converted to 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano." For sure he never saw a Vetterli in his whole life.
A good presentation again. Congratulations to Othais and Mae.
Thank you for staying with history. That's why I do my part with Patreon. If I wanted to listen to bulls**t...well, I could just turn on the TV. Thank you folks, for another interesting Primer!
Good afternoon! I'm from Russia, and my grand-grandfather had the Vetterli-Vitali rifle.
I for one applaud your decision to not get political. I hate the fact that I enjoy something that I get pressured to justify my position on constantly. Just let me enjoy it damn it.
Indeed. Though Ian and Karl will both on occasion encourage political action. I like that Othias has the courage to say "no, I will never get involved" that takes some courage in todays super antagonistic political environment.
So glad you will stay on topic!
I'm not sure why the Algorithm has spit out a very old C&Rsenal video today, but I shall do my part to pump it up.
The Martini Henry has a thumb rest built right into the receiver and troops were trained to not wrap their thumb over the wrist. Recoil from the 577/450 round was heavy enough to endanger the shooters nose otherwise.
Good episode, couple notes:
Rogue frame at 13:43.
At 33:32, something's been bugging me for a while...it would be nicer to show a bunch of related rifles vertically aligned by their triggers and not their centers, because then you can more intuitively grasp the relative changes in barrel length and buttstock length.
Something so charmingly steampunk about it, especially the back of the bolt and the giant hole alongside the elevator.
For all the men and women at C & R I am so sorry for what happened to the comment section
Thank you, informative and well presented as always. I've seen quite a few shooters at my local range not rap their thumbs around the stock, seems to be personal preference. There are other political channels I go to for politics. C&R is my goto for firearms history. keep up the great work and know that all the effort your team puts into these videos is appreciated.
I find the most immature people think their way is the only way, make up exaggerated reasons why, and then hurl insults while they demand their way. Generally a sign of poor socialization, high ego, and narrow education.
I saw a Vetterli at a gun shop once, and had absolutely no idea what I was looking at.
Now I know, and knowing is half the battle. ;)
I do love old guns because you see the different ways they got around stuff back then. Like the safety on the Vitali.
Watching a few years after this episode aired and I’m still impressed even on second viewing wth this rifle
This thing makes the mosin look like a mauser
thanks, i didnt need sleep tonight!
As a blackpowder shouter (1875 sharps, 1873 trapdoor, 1863 Springfield, and 1842 rifledmusket). I like long rifles, and now I'm going to look for one of this rifles. Mae is a great shooter, so sad a##holes are giving her sh==. Keep up the great work.
I love love your channel. Keep it up!
As always a very informative show, keep up the good work. Loved the old motor bike pictures. Thanks.
The fact that the internet trolls attack a chick who can definitly shoot, shows that they are not too intelligent^^
Keep doing what you do the both of you :)
Much love from Switzerland
They do what everyone has known for years. They just attack to issue suffering and get joy from it. I remember reading the article on this subject of researchers actually investigating the reason why people troll online and what these people are like. The confirmed they are exactly what everyone thinks they are. They are typically the *ss holes, low income, racist, uneducated, and just like making people suffer. They confirm that it is really not a good idea to "feed the troll" but speaking with them. Ignoring them really does fix the problem. haha. If they do not get feed back or sign there is suffering or hitting your nerve they get angry and eventually find someone else that feeds them.
@@sharkfinbite Posting on the internet is like being drunk. Your inhibitions are gone because you're anonymous and there are no repercussions(though some mouth breathers shitpost even when not anonymous). But you can say anything easily and with little to no effort, and many people can't handle that.
Also remember that many trolls are legit 12-17 year olds. XD
I have a VV M1870/87/15 that lived in a corner of my father's garage the whole time I was growing up. neither my Dad or I had any info on this interesting old rifle until I managed to find a little bit of info online a few years ago. I never would have expected that this old antique would still be a functional rifle, and several online sources had cautionary tales relating to the barrel sleeve which reduced the original 10.4 mm bore to the new chambering of 6.5 Carcano. I took the warnings with a large grain of salt, because all the tales were second-hand at best, and no one had any first hand knowlege about them. I'm happy I didn't listen, because I've had this rifle out to the range a number of times in the past 3 or 4 years, and it shoots very well, with a gentle recoil (perhaps due to the hefty weight. It's a fun rifle to shoot, and gets funny looks from range staff or onlookers. it starts fun conversations. I'm looking for some en-bloc clips for this if anyone knows where I can find them. Thanks Othias & Mae!
As an Italian I especially liked this episode but I really appreciate also all the other, you guys (and girl) make a great work, and I've to say that you have a pretty good italian pronounciation, but for the little errors you make just remember that Italian is really simple to pronunce you just have to pronounce every letter (for example we don't cut final e, and we always pronouce it like in "better" not as in "idea").
Mae you are the star of the show. Not the fuzzy guy....you know what's his name..... :)
The Bearded one? Mae is much better looking.
Very good! Thank you for this video!
I love Italian firearms. The Italians have always produced their own interesting versions of foreign designs and they also have plenty completely unique original designs such as the column magazine system of the FIAT-Revelli M1914 heavy machine gun.
There's your next t-shirt. "The Vetterli Rifle is bad, but better then a stick." with a picture of the rifle.
Othias. If the MAS 36 butt stock is too short for you get a French Army MAS slip on rubber 'recoil pad'. Actually it was the official way to extend the stock for those soldiers who needed more than the manufactured short stock. Being a recoil pad was an incidental. It was a stock length adjuster that the soldier could keep with him as he was issued any of the MAS wherever he was.
I can't wait to see the Martini-Henry on your show soon.
You should do a brief segment, or spin off episode on the difficulties and issues encountered with loading for the odd old cartridges
As always you guys provide a high quality video and education.
There is a model 1870 in a glass case with bayonet and some pictures in the office of my school principal. It probably belonged to a policeman or a carabineer that donated it to my school.
I held one in real life, it was long but it was so light
Mae is awesome. She has shot some guns that I would hesitate to shoot. Such of a trooper, she takes on everything. Her shooting the German "tank killer" won my respect....man/ woman whatever. As far as women shooting, most of the time my wife shoots better than me. When Othais was talking about the sexist remarks they get "all the time". That's so sad that people feel that way. Sad for them. This channel does a huge service for those of us that have a huge interest in these firearms and the history surrounding their development. For those that feel the need to insult, you can always go somewhere else. PLEASE, your'e embarrassing to the rest of us.
As one of those foreign viewers, thanks for not getting this channel involved in a political brawl.
I think the reason why they've put the locking lugs on the bolt handle was because if the lugs break then replacing the bolt handle was going to be cheaper than replacing entire bolt
As a bonus, you may get to replace a soldier, too.
Definitely worth the time and effort researching how to form the brass and reload in any caliber you may have
GREAT VIDEO !!!
GREAT GROUP MAE !!! KEEP OTHAIS ON HIS TOES !! :-)
I have seen lots and lots of these over the years. I never thought I would ever see one fired.
This is actually one of my favorite weapons. I have the 70/87 moschetto TS, dated 1887, and has no large shiny plate around the Vitali mag setup.
Not cool that you both have to put up with crap comments you deserve soooo much better
Had a "waffenfabrik Bern" Vetterli as a kid. Must have disassembled that thing 1000 times. Was stolen from my Parents' house when they had to vacate because of storm damage. Discovered the replacement FP under the buttplate.
That Action makes an awesome Sound
Was anybody else watching this while cooking and then saw the SVT40 flash onto the screen and have to rewind a few minutes to see how the Italians went from a single shot to a semi-auto Russian gun? No? Just me?
You guys make me so happy.
I was hoping you’d touch the 70/87/15, but oh well. Maybe you’ll do it in another episode
wow, another excellent and informative video. Thank you so much!
Will you be doing a piece on the M1870/87/15 (the version converted to 6.5mm)? There is virtually nothing scholarly on this variation available that I could locate. Need your skills and research techniques. (We actually shot these when I was a teen, using old Norma ammo we scrounged from gun shops and loose ammo piles at gun shows. Not sure If I'd do it now, although we really didn't have problems back then (late 1990's)
Also: I really appreciate your keeping current politics off your history pieces. This keeps information focused and to point. Imagine going to a dictionary for information of a word, only to be distracted. Yes, there are serious political issues involving efforts for unilateral civilian disarmament (gun control), but as you mentioned there are other sources for this important topic.
May ignore the h8ters :D You are lovely and a kick ass chick. Also love the show! Inspired me to start dev on a game revolving around arms manufacturing and development :3 Love all of the amazing info you pass down. Really is helping me understand the multiple steps that go into developing and supplying small arms
Outstanding!
Great info, thanks for sharing!
As to the update info: "......I have seen the enemy, and it is us!"
Awesome video c&rsenal team!
To some (you know who you are), I very much enjoy this channel so can you please keep your childish, derogatory and offensive comments to yourselves? Show respect for this channel, others who want to keep this serious too, and probably more importantly, for yourself!
It beats the crap out of a stick. The gun seems to be reliable and hits hard enough to stop anybody. First choice? No. It still beats the crap out of a stick. It most likely is as good as if not better than a Label.
Good for you, for keeping politics out of this.
It's funny, going back through these, I actually like Bruno's animations way more than the professional they have doing them now.
There was just something about his that were easier to follow and see IMO. Maybe because he was more hands-on, and working with Mark, he knows a lot more about guns, being a gunsmith who animates as opposed to an animator who is doing guns.
Way back in the 1980’s a friend of mine found one of these in a pawnshop and bought it. Neither he nor the pawnshop owner knew what it was. I volunteered to see if I could identify it. For more than six months I scoured libraries and museums until I finally found out what it was.
there has been several thumb trigger designs over the years. it's a relatively simple design and it feels good, if you know what i mean. i've a rifle from the 1860s-70s that i got from my grandma, who got it from her grandma.
I cant wait for the vetterli episode, its just so cool and interesting.
Loved it, Like always :) Keep it up!
The anecdote about Vetterli rifles being sold to Chinese warlords is interesting since nearly every European power ignored the embargo, especially the Italians. In "Arming the Chinese: The Western Armaments Trade in Warlord China, 1920-1928" Anthony Chan talks about how the Italian consulate in Tianjin actually advertised rifles for prospective warlord buyers by displaying them as if they were in shop windows, much to the chagrin of more hush-hush European sellers.
I got 2 of these... excellent video !!!!! Thanks
I still drool over that model 8 on the back rack where did the winchester self loader go
What a interesting gun, especially considering how old it is.
Even the updated 1887 version is still a very early bolt action. And a very advanced one for its time too.
Mae, you fired a T-Gewehr like a boss, so any derogatory comment is automatically null and void 💪😂
You sir speak the truth.
Great video guys.
I bought a Vetterli 1890 Carcano rifle made in 1917 at a yard sale for 10 bucks.
They didn't know what it was and neither did I. I translated the engraving on it to a naval yard in Italy. After further research, I learned about the weapon. It is missing the clip, bayonet and strap. I did get the bolt action to work but I won't fire it due to bad corrosion inside the barrel
I had one but traded it off. It was kind of a white elephant in my collection as it took up limited safe space (I only had one at the time) and I knew it was dangerous to shoot. Plus in all the horse trading I did the day I got rid of it, I ended up with an SVT-40.
Was feeling quite ill today so not heading to school. Open up youtube to find the perfect video to rock me back to sleep in my sub box.
Been waiting so long for you guys to do this gun! I really hope guys do the Werndal next! Even if you, keep up the great work
did the chargers actually come from the factory with an arrow on them?
yes
Genial episodio. Realmente interesante, lleno de curiosidades sobre un fusil horroroso lleno de innovación e ingenio.
Finnally, information on this rifle. I found one in my basement and could never find much info on it. The one I have appears to have a 1877 year marking on the barrel and an Italian coat of arms on the stock.
Unfortunately though. Because of years in the basement, the the metal has a fair bit of rust(looks to be just surface rust at least)
And even before it started rusting. It looks like the barrel was cut down a bit and the wood was cut shorter under the barrel.