Agree with all the positive statements about your videos, I enjoy the variety of reviews, experiments, and commentary; learn something new from every episode, thanks!
Awesome review! Thank you very much for the time and effort that you put on your videos, I'm a chemical engineer and electronic enthusiast and I learn a lot from your videos!
Nice review. Difference in amplitude was due to impedance mismatch between 50 ohm output and 1Meg input. Amplitude of ARB FGEN represented in voltage which would be present driving 50 ohm load, but sine 1Meg is basically floating for FGEN, actual voltage is higher with lower frequency, and then drops as frequency goes up.
The Signal Path Blog Is the weird shape of the 5Mhz square wave a result of a standing wave on the input of the filter resulting from the impedance mismatch?
+DextersLab2013 It has 10 contacts (RJ50), not 8 (RJ45) as needed for ethernet. It's more likely for a serial interface. NI uses these connectors quite often on their RS-232/422/485 interfaces.
+superdau Ethernet jacks with integrated magnetics have 10 pin footprints. The center taps of the transformers are ganged and connected to the extra two pins. The further 4 connectors for the integrated LEDs and the missing footprint for the PHY pretty much guarantee ethernet. The placement is odd; the board is probably used in a different product, perhaps a standalone mixed signal scope + function gen.
at the end the impedance mismatch between the 50 ohm and 10 mohm causes signal attenuation causing the signal to appear at lower amplitudes. Thats why impedance matching in rf circuits is key!
I agree on the digital output section. It should be more comprehensive, at least a simple byte generator/excerciser to be controlled by macros you can choose from within the application. I bet you could do that when using LabView to directly control the instrument. No idea if the application and a self made LabView could use the instrument at the same time, but this could make the digital output section more usable.
Fantastic review of a good product. I am just struggling to decide who the device is targeted at. as much as I would like one myself in my tiny workspace I just have concerns about having all my eggs in the one basket. but on the other hand from a price point of view you can't go wrong. I will ponder it a little longer.. Karl
The Digital I/O and DC Power Supply connectors look not so very much proprietory) They look like EC381V. If they are indeed compatible, it's cool because they can be easily replaced if lost) The blue finish is fantastic) The puzzle is cool! The input changes because the higher frequencies are getting shunted. About the "gain" of the filter I have two versions. The first is that the power is being transmitted with fairly little loss on 15 MHz, so we may say that all the power from the input is transmitted to the output. But on the input we have voltage divider of 1:1 ratio, while on the output we basically haven't. So, as the power on input and output is the same, we have twice the input voltage on the output. The second version is that the output voltage is bigger due to reflection. I even suppose that the both of the versions may be correct from different perspective. I'm really not so convinced, so would like any corrections) About the square wave looking ugly my first thought was it's because of reflection due to impedance mismatch. But the cable is too short to cause such effect on this frequency. The link to impedance changing with frequency of the filter does not make much sence to me too... So I'm really puzzled.) It also would be interesting to see the inside of this filter)
For all those Logic Analyzers (Saleae, this one and so on) I wish you could define your own protocol decoders. This would make them so much more worth their money! You could for example define your own RC servo decoder which displays 0-180 degress or 0-100% directly, or you could change the I2C-decoder so it automatically does the bit shifting (last adress bit is for read/write and not part of the adress). Maybe you even could implement a database into I2C so it can display register and device names... Now you always have to export the decoders output und throw it (in simple cases) into excel or even write a script that does the processing.
1hdsquad It seems at least for a year now, but I only found it a few weeks ago. Make sure you're running the latest beta of their software, it adds a lot of new analyzer not in the stable version! I was hunting for a JTAG analyzer and found it in the beta, it's working very well.
Thank you for making the video, I understand it is not easy making these. As for the VirtualBench, it left me wishing there was a whatsoever higher-end version of it. PXI is VASTLY more expensive and higher performance. I would like to see a 500+Mhz scope with appropriate sampling, a 2ch ARB, 6.5 digit DMM with 4W ohms. Something that could be useful in a professional environment. This unit seems to be a good choice for education and hobbiest. Hope they consider growing the concept. NI has the skills to make a PC scope that is actually useful.
+JetNmyFuture Thanks for sharing your thoughts on VirtualBench! I am a product manager at National Instruments, and I would love to speak with you more about what hardware and software features you would like to see in instrumentation products. If you are interested, email me at katie.collette@ni.com. Thanks! -Katie
Shahriar, very nice review and the quality I would have expected from NI. Note that National Instruments has an "s" on the end in both the pronunciation and the spelling. Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but it is the company's name. Similiar mistakes often occur with the spelling of LabVIEW and not capitalizing the correct letters.
Hi, Love the channel. For this review I would have liked to know more about the computer requirements to run the software. Especially the minimum and optimal screen sizes for the UI and how good/bad the UI scales down. The unit may be small but if you need a 24" 1920 x 1200 screen to effectively run the software then there is still a problem using it on a crowded bench. Cheers.
sorry to tripple comment here but it would be nice in future videos to either let us know or leave in the description part numbers .... i would love to know what was chosen in professional level gear to figure out why and use the same parts in personal projects
wanted to say i enjoy your videos always love tear down and repair videos. i think its a well built piece of hardware they put lots of time into the hardware and neglected the software. i would of thought a nice web interface would of been possible. lack of software support for android mac os X and linux is very disappointed. maybe the software will improve maybe a version will exist with a web interface. For the price i would of thought the bandwidth would of been higher but it is almost like they packed more things in there to justify a higher price.
Maybe not for this unit, but I totally agree with you. Take Agilent (yes I said Agilent). Multi thousand dollar pieces of equipment, and all you get is benchview. For windows. Forget about Android. And god forbid, proper interfacing with other vendors, which is absolute bollocks.
Alyx BioHaz Damn it. It is taking forever. Oh well. I usually watch them twice anyway. Live from New York (state)-it's my Saturday night life! Beautiful.
2000$ and no bananas for PSU or good probes for DMM? :O Anyway the idea is cool, perhaps I will make something like that in future. At this time i'm making power supply and dummy load(separated), and I want to add possibility to connect both together, to easily test eg. performance of DC-DC converter, also it will be able to send data from both to PC and make various graphs.
opelize Exactly, the unpopulated IC ist most likely the PHY for it. And you can see there 2x2 pads for LEDs. They have chosen a jack that has built in magnetics and capacitors, hence the 10 pins instead of 8.
Light gray text on slightly darker gray background, that's a dealbreaker right there. Not all of us have perfect vision, millions are spent on handicapped parking, wheelchair access, and stuff like that and yet it is OK to make shitty contrast user interfaces like that. I don't see why I should strain my eyes just because someone thinks it looks neat if only 5% of the contrast range is used. The hardware isn't great, but the software lets this instrument down, badly. If you have a generator and scope it it is almost criminal not to program a vector network analyzer like the analog discovery has at 1/10th of the price.
***** Might be a good deal considering some of components that were used. However, considering the reputation and reliability of NI products, the functionality of the device and how much bench space it would save especially if someone was just getting started, it is a very good deal. I had never heard of "Digilent" before and noted that it was very similar to Agilent. As the web site states, "Clint Cole, President & CTO, worked at Hewlett-Packard". They must have used the same ad agency.
TheAmmoniacal I hear you, so to speak. For most of us (subscribers), it probably is a difficult pill to swallow. If one already has an investment in equivalent discrete instruments, it does not bear thinking about. In a professional environment, it's restrictive in portability and specs, and might raise some eyebrows. For the hobbyist at home, it does not seem entirely convincing-there is no replacing the look and feel of conventional instruments on a bench, or the experience of using them. On the other hand, in a confined space, this might just be a "bobby-dazzler". You are getting 5 instruments in one fairly small enclosure and using only one wall outlet. In a school, a lab of these could save a fortune in equipment and maintenance costs. This whole unit exudes quality to me. The boards look flawless from here. And look at that die-cast case. No foil-lined plastic here, no sir. The National Instruments name itself is still worth something. The software needs work-there should be a lot more math functions, which should be easy to implement, and that aliasing problem Shahriar mentioned needs to be addressed. The leads for the logic analyzer are ridiculous (at the least, make an extension available guys). Other than that, I think they may have a winner here. It is a tough proposition for me personally, but it's horses for courses as they say.
The missing connector is obviously an RJ45 connector and population area. Why its left empty i do not know, maybe they skipped that feature for the wifi. And now its a ghost haunting the board forever.. I would never use wifi though.. seriously.. Hokus pokus air magic fluff stuff of latency, connection and security issues all over that tiny wifi word..
VERY disappointed at the price point. Almost $3000CDN, which would be acceptable EXCEPT it doesn't come with ANY probes, it literally includes the power cable and that's it. The binding post adapter is $150CDN!!! Also $45 for the bloody USB cable. This is price gouging at its worst, as NI know there is no comparable product on the market. This really tempts me to undercut them.
I don't like their user interface, its like they copied it from Keysights Benchview software which is much better. Some of the critical readouts needs a larger font.
It's sad that what promised to be a great channel dealing with in depth electronics has transformed over time to be a techies CNET review channel. I've been watching it since day 1 but the constant reviews are just becoming boring. How about some actual electronics for a change ? Characterisation of components, non linear circuits, repairs with in depth explanations of circuit theory is fantastic( Agilent spectrum analyser ) etc is great.
+BBK1 All my videos including my reviews aim to be educational. Depending on instrument's target audience the topics covered in the reviews will differ. In this case it is a review intended for beginners. To compare my reviews to a "techie CNET" review is an insult to the hours I spend designing experiments, building them and making measurements to showcase the equipment's capabilities. If you think that my Keysight, Keithley, Tektronix or Rigol reviews are not "actual electronics", then I am afraid I can't help you.
The Signal Path Blog If you can look past the insult, that man does have a point. Disclosing the nature of your relationship with the manufacturer would go a long way towards preserving the trust you have built with your viewers. There is no such thing as "no strings attached". This review game has grown to very ugly "selling your soul for vast amounts of money" kind of deals elsewhere, with prepared scripts and all that nonsense, it wouldn't hurt to let people know this isn't one of those arrangements. That said, your skills are also a bit wasted on basic reviews. There are other youtubers perfectly qualified to tell us how cheap the plastic feels if you get my drift.
+stefantrethan I am never paid for my reviews. I never get any portion of the sales. My reviews are not scripted, they are not reviewed by the manufacturer. They have no idea what I will say. I mention this in every review video at the end of the review. My website doesn't even have a single advertisement on it!
The Signal Path Blog Must have missed it then, I only remember the bit about not getting a provision for any sales. You may think the other stuff goes without saying. It does not. I think you usually say "Rigol sent me one for review" or something like that, this time you just "got one here in the lab" which could mean you bought it (I actually wondered for a second until I remembered how bad it is from another review). I don't think advertising would be any problem. Everyone knows it's advertising, coming from Google Adsense or whatever, and not your opinion.
+stefantrethan Even if someone gets paid to review an instrument, it does not imply that the review is biased. If I am every biased in any review (regardless of the fact that I don't get paid), I would like the viewers to point out exactly how I was biased. I point out the good and the bad of everything that I have reviewed. I don't even tell people they should buy the instrument. I always say you must make your own decision.
Agree with all the positive statements about your videos, I enjoy the variety of reviews, experiments, and commentary; learn something new from every episode, thanks!
Awesome review! Thank you very much for the time and effort that you put on your videos, I'm a chemical engineer and electronic enthusiast and I learn a lot from your videos!
Another great review. Thanks for taking the time to make this.
Nice review. Difference in amplitude was due to impedance mismatch between 50 ohm output and 1Meg input. Amplitude of ARB FGEN represented in voltage which would be present driving 50 ohm load, but sine 1Meg is basically floating for FGEN, actual voltage is higher with lower frequency, and then drops as frequency goes up.
+xDevs.com Yes. :) The circuit has voltage gain, but not power gain. Passive circuits can't have power gain.
The Signal Path Blog Is the weird shape of the 5Mhz square wave a result of a standing wave on the input of the filter resulting from the impedance mismatch?
Excellent review! I hope some day I'll be able do videos like this!
You succeeded!
Very nice review. Using the virtual bench with lab view opens up a bunch of possibilities.
the missing connector at 11:00 looks like an rj45 / ethernet port, maybe there was going to be a hard-wired option along with the wifi and usb?
+DextersLab2013 That makes sense. :)
+DextersLab2013
It has 10 contacts (RJ50), not 8 (RJ45) as needed for ethernet. It's more likely for a serial interface. NI uses these connectors quite often on their RS-232/422/485 interfaces.
superdau must admit i didn't really count the pins, thanks for pointing that out.
+superdau Ethernet jacks with integrated magnetics have 10 pin footprints. The center taps of the transformers are ganged and connected to the extra two pins. The further 4 connectors for the integrated LEDs and the missing footprint for the PHY pretty much guarantee ethernet. The placement is odd; the board is probably used in a different product, perhaps a standalone mixed signal scope + function gen.
at the end the impedance mismatch between the 50 ohm and 10 mohm causes signal attenuation causing the signal to appear at lower amplitudes. Thats why impedance matching in rf circuits is key!
I agree on the digital output section. It should be more comprehensive, at least a simple byte generator/excerciser to be controlled by macros you can choose from within the application. I bet you could do that when using LabView to directly control the instrument. No idea if the application and a self made LabView could use the instrument at the same time, but this could make the digital output section more usable.
Fantastic review of a good product. I am just struggling to decide who the device is targeted at. as much as I would like one myself in my tiny workspace I just have concerns about having all my eggs in the one basket. but on the other hand from a price point of view you can't go wrong. I will ponder it a little longer.. Karl
Excellent video. You should really install an extra lighting source though.
The Digital I/O and DC Power Supply connectors look not so very much proprietory) They look like EC381V. If they are indeed compatible, it's cool because they can be easily replaced if lost)
The blue finish is fantastic)
The puzzle is cool! The input changes because the higher frequencies are getting shunted. About the "gain" of the filter I have two versions. The first is that the power is being transmitted with fairly little loss on 15 MHz, so we may say that all the power from the input is transmitted to the output. But on the input we have voltage divider of 1:1 ratio, while on the output we basically haven't. So, as the power on input and output is the same, we have twice the input voltage on the output. The second version is that the output voltage is bigger due to reflection. I even suppose that the both of the versions may be correct from different perspective.
I'm really not so convinced, so would like any corrections)
About the square wave looking ugly my first thought was it's because of reflection due to impedance mismatch. But the cable is too short to cause such effect on this frequency. The link to impedance changing with frequency of the filter does not make much sence to me too... So I'm really puzzled.)
It also would be interesting to see the inside of this filter)
For all those Logic Analyzers (Saleae, this one and so on) I wish you could define your own protocol decoders. This would make them so much more worth their money!
You could for example define your own RC servo decoder which displays 0-180 degress or 0-100% directly, or you could change the I2C-decoder so it automatically does the bit shifting (last adress bit is for read/write and not part of the adress). Maybe you even could implement a database into I2C so it can display register and device names... Now you always have to export the decoders output und throw it (in simple cases) into excel or even write a script that does the processing.
1hdsquad You can define your own protocol decoders for Saleae's Logic software.
support.saleae.com/hc/en-us/articles/201104644-Protocol-Analyzer-SDK
xasbo Wow, how did I miss that? How long does this option exist? Thank you!
1hdsquad It seems at least for a year now, but I only found it a few weeks ago. Make sure you're running the latest beta of their software, it adds a lot of new analyzer not in the stable version! I was hunting for a JTAG analyzer and found it in the beta, it's working very well.
Since it's a 10-pin connector (RJ50), I guess it's a serial connection. NI uses them quite often for RS-232/422/485 interfaces.
Thank you for making the video, I understand it is not easy making these. As for the VirtualBench, it left me wishing there was a whatsoever higher-end version of it. PXI is VASTLY more expensive and higher performance. I would like to see a 500+Mhz scope with appropriate sampling, a 2ch ARB, 6.5 digit DMM with 4W ohms. Something that could be useful in a professional environment. This unit seems to be a good choice for education and hobbiest. Hope they consider growing the concept. NI has the skills to make a PC scope that is actually useful.
+JetNmyFuture Thanks for sharing your thoughts on VirtualBench! I am a product manager at National Instruments, and I would love to speak with you more about what hardware and software features you would like to see in instrumentation products. If you are interested, email me at katie.collette@ni.com. Thanks! -Katie
Shahriar, very nice review and the quality I would have expected from NI. Note that National Instruments has an "s" on the end in both the pronunciation and the spelling. Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but it is the company's name. Similiar mistakes often occur with the spelling of LabVIEW and not capitalizing the correct letters.
+Keith Ward Thanks! I have corrected the typo. :)
Hi, Love the channel. For this review I would have liked to know more about the computer requirements to run the software. Especially the minimum and optimal screen sizes for the UI and how good/bad the UI scales down. The unit may be small but if you need a 24" 1920 x 1200 screen to effectively run the software then there is still a problem using it on a crowded bench. Cheers.
11:11 The unpopulated elements looks like Ethernet interface. I'm not sure because the connector has 10 pins instead of 8.
***** it appears to have each twisted pair going to what looks like an LVDS pair ... not sure why does not look like programming but it might be
true true
Perhaps the filter is taking the blocked spurious frequencies, and adding the power from them to the filtered output. Am I close?
+Christopher S You mean it is acting in a non-linear fashion? No, not this one. :)
sorry to tripple comment here but it would be nice in future videos to either let us know or leave in the description part numbers .... i would love to know what was chosen in professional level gear to figure out why and use the same parts in personal projects
+Alyx BioHaz I'll try to do that.
Is there a red version of this unit? It should suit to my Ferrari =)
wanted to say i enjoy your videos always love tear down and repair videos.
i think its a well built piece of hardware they put lots of time into the hardware and neglected the software. i would of thought a nice web interface would of been possible. lack of software support for android mac os X and linux is very disappointed. maybe the software will improve maybe a version will exist with a web interface. For the price i would of thought the bandwidth would of been higher but it is almost like they packed more things in there to justify a higher price.
Maybe not for this unit, but I totally agree with you. Take Agilent (yes I said Agilent). Multi thousand dollar pieces of equipment, and all you get is benchview. For windows. Forget about Android. And god forbid, proper interfacing with other vendors, which is absolute bollocks.
And we play the waiting game for youtube to compress full quality!
Alyx BioHaz Damn it. It is taking forever. Oh well. I usually watch them twice anyway.
Live from New York (state)-it's my Saturday night life! Beautiful.
2000$ and no bananas for PSU or good probes for DMM? :O
Anyway the idea is cool, perhaps I will make something like that in future.
At this time i'm making power supply and dummy load(separated), and I want to add possibility to connect both together, to easily test eg. performance of DC-DC converter, also it will be able to send data from both to PC and make various graphs.
i would love to be able to afford one of these! it would get daily use!
and regarding the end problem ... reflection?
47:35 I guess that is why the scope is in peak detect acq mode my default
👍👍
The connector footprint looks like it is for an Ethernet connector.
The unpopulated area around 11:30 is an Ethernet jack
Yepp, looks like ethernet. But why is in the middle of the board? Interesting. Ask NI what is this for :)
+BMR Studio Debugging or as an alternative to Wi-Fi.
opelize Exactly, the unpopulated IC ist most likely the PHY for it. And you can see there 2x2 pads for LEDs. They have chosen a jack that has built in magnetics and capacitors, hence the 10 pins instead of 8.
Light gray text on slightly darker gray background, that's a dealbreaker right there.
Not all of us have perfect vision, millions are spent on handicapped parking, wheelchair access, and stuff like that and yet it is OK to make shitty contrast user interfaces like that. I don't see why I should strain my eyes just because someone thinks it looks neat if only 5% of the contrast range is used.
The hardware isn't great, but the software lets this instrument down, badly.
If you have a generator and scope it it is almost criminal not to program a vector network analyzer like the analog discovery has at 1/10th of the price.
+stefantrethan The software has another color mode which is dark text on white background. I think they will implement more functions as time passes.
What's the price of this thing?
TheAmmoniacal $2000
pillsnotbills No thanks.
***** Might be a good deal considering some of components that were used. However, considering the reputation and reliability of NI products, the functionality of the device and how much bench space it would save especially if someone was just getting started, it is a very good deal.
I had never heard of "Digilent" before and noted that it was very similar to Agilent. As the web site states, "Clint Cole, President & CTO, worked at Hewlett-Packard". They must have used the same ad agency.
For $2000 you can get a very good MSO, DMM and Function generator separately. I really prefer separate separate tools for each job.
TheAmmoniacal I hear you, so to speak. For most of us (subscribers), it probably is a difficult pill to swallow. If one already has an investment in equivalent discrete instruments, it does not bear thinking about. In a professional environment, it's restrictive in portability and specs, and might raise some eyebrows.
For the hobbyist at home, it does not seem entirely convincing-there is no replacing the look and feel of conventional instruments on a bench, or the experience of using them. On the other hand, in a confined space, this might just be a "bobby-dazzler". You are getting 5 instruments in one fairly small enclosure and using only one wall outlet. In a school, a lab of these could save a fortune in equipment and maintenance costs.
This whole unit exudes quality to me. The boards look flawless from here. And look at that die-cast case. No foil-lined plastic here, no sir. The National Instruments name itself is still worth something. The software needs work-there should be a lot more math functions, which should be easy to implement, and that aliasing problem Shahriar mentioned needs to be addressed. The leads for the logic analyzer are ridiculous (at the least, make an extension available guys). Other than that, I think they may have a winner here. It is a tough proposition for me personally, but it's horses for courses as they say.
Interesting product and excellent review. Would you like to donate it to our community workshop?
9:50 looks like national semiconductor ADC.
It's an RJ45 jack!!!!
The missing connector is obviously an RJ45 connector and population area.
Why its left empty i do not know, maybe they skipped that feature for the wifi.
And now its a ghost haunting the board forever..
I would never use wifi though.. seriously..
Hokus pokus air magic fluff stuff of latency, connection and security issues all over that tiny wifi word..
VERY disappointed at the price point. Almost $3000CDN, which would be acceptable EXCEPT it doesn't come with ANY probes, it literally includes the power cable and that's it. The binding post adapter is $150CDN!!! Also $45 for the bloody USB cable. This is price gouging at its worst, as NI know there is no comparable product on the market. This really tempts me to undercut them.
11:14 ethernet socket lol
+Bartosz Marciniak :)
I don't like their user interface, its like they copied it from Keysights Benchview software which is much better.
Some of the critical readouts needs a larger font.
It's sad that what promised to be a great channel dealing with in depth electronics has transformed over time to be a techies CNET review channel. I've been watching it since day 1 but the constant reviews are just becoming boring.
How about some actual electronics for a change ?
Characterisation of components, non linear circuits, repairs with in depth explanations of circuit theory is fantastic( Agilent spectrum analyser ) etc is great.
+BBK1 All my videos including my reviews aim to be educational. Depending on instrument's target audience the topics covered in the reviews will differ. In this case it is a review intended for beginners. To compare my reviews to a "techie CNET" review is an insult to the hours I spend designing experiments, building them and making measurements to showcase the equipment's capabilities. If you think that my Keysight, Keithley, Tektronix or Rigol reviews are not "actual electronics", then I am afraid I can't help you.
The Signal Path Blog If you can look past the insult, that man does have a point.
Disclosing the nature of your relationship with the manufacturer would go a long way towards preserving the trust you have built with your viewers. There is no such thing as "no strings attached". This review game has grown to very ugly "selling your soul for vast amounts of money" kind of deals elsewhere, with prepared scripts and all that nonsense, it wouldn't hurt to let people know this isn't one of those arrangements.
That said, your skills are also a bit wasted on basic reviews. There are other youtubers perfectly qualified to tell us how cheap the plastic feels if you get my drift.
+stefantrethan I am never paid for my reviews. I never get any portion of the sales. My reviews are not scripted, they are not reviewed by the manufacturer. They have no idea what I will say. I mention this in every review video at the end of the review. My website doesn't even have a single advertisement on it!
The Signal Path Blog Must have missed it then, I only remember the bit about not getting a provision for any sales. You may think the other stuff goes without saying. It does not.
I think you usually say "Rigol sent me one for review" or something like that, this time you just "got one here in the lab" which could mean you bought it (I actually wondered for a second until I remembered how bad it is from another review).
I don't think advertising would be any problem. Everyone knows it's advertising, coming from Google Adsense or whatever, and not your opinion.
+stefantrethan Even if someone gets paid to review an instrument, it does not imply that the review is biased. If I am every biased in any review (regardless of the fact that I don't get paid), I would like the viewers to point out exactly how I was biased. I point out the good and the bad of everything that I have reviewed. I don't even tell people they should buy the instrument. I always say you must make your own decision.
Another great review. Thanks for taking the time to make this.