Since I saw that original video of the issue, I started adding Red guard after the initial prep to seal water off from getting between Kerdi and drain fleece.
This! I’ve transferred to flo FX drains myself, so I’d also be curious of a long term test of the flo fx drains too. Because who doesn’t like two years of buckets of water sitting in your shop 🤣😂
I had two Schluter round drains and one Linear drain failed so far. I had done more than 200 Schluter shower bases and I always worried about receiving calls from my previous customers. For all three failed, the reason was the drain itself but I have not received proper support from Schluter. They only took care of the Linear drain and they just provided replacement material and an installer to re-do the shower base. I had to pay for the new tile, the removal and re-install of the shower glass door and panels, I had to pay to fix the drywall and paint for the room downstairs.
Just a quick comment on the reason (in your test) the bonding may have not been degraded as much as it can be in the field. Many times the repeated transition from wet to dry will allow for more degradation than a constant submersion in water. Also another possibility also is the addition of soaps, bleach, hair products to the mix.........all the possible variables the manufacturers have to deal with has to be a challenge. PS, I am a home improvement contractor and have done a few dozen showers over the years (mostly old school liner or composite pan) and find your videos and your techniques on various ways to surface waterproof, to the best on the internet.......Thanks for all you do, and also for your honesty and openness on mistakes and how to deal with them. Richard Gavle
Great, objective, impartial, and independent testing! Clearly, this video and your other videos on the subject, show that the flange needs to be improved upon!!!
Thank you for doing this video and testing this idea. I've installed a bit of schluter products and have attended 3 of their classes. They certainly make bold claims about the waterproof nature between band to kerdi but never say much about the transitions to ABS like this. I've got a thought that might be worth consideration. What about applying a water proof membrane like mapei or red guard to the area around the drain. The part of your test that's relatively inconclusive is the area that would under normal conditions should not receive moisture, from the side of the mortar where the band ring would meet the kerdi pan,. so it's hard to tell whether this conclusion isn't just water transfer from the side the whole way through to the drain side. Again thank you for doing this and you're absolutely right, a big problem with our trade is that once you leave a job you don't know exactly what happens over time. This kind of discourse could really increase our profession's quality.
@@jeffreyjbyron I have not. I'd test some scrap kerdi to see if the adhesion of the liquid membrane was good. As long as it stuck to it well my guess is that it would probably be fine. There is a chance that the materials may have chemicals that don't interact well with each other. You'd need some kind of long term test to know that for sure.
@@coupofmentality3417 I'm a homeowner and I'm considering doing my own shower, but Tile Coach's tests make me very wary of Schluter. I like how easy it is to set up, but for peace of mind I'd want to put a layer of hydraban or redguard over the whole thing. But yeah, I'm also worried about adhesion and chemical reactions over time... I'll post here if I find new info.
@@jeffreyjbyron no matter what you do, knowing the process is crucial. It's hard to know why things fail and to be fair, no flange goes through this kind of treatment in regular use.
Longevity testing is a shortcoming in everything now days. This was an excellent example on a common product in the industry. This is clearly an issue, I just wonder what all factors play in to it occuring since obviously the level of failure can vary. Like, does even a small amount of flexing after the initial bit breaks free cause it to steadily get worse as it contacts water?(like in the original videos) In this case I would assume a regular use shower would probably be on borrowed time once the first bit gets under the fleece. Makes me worry about point load issues with things like penny rounds..
Showers can get hot hot to speed it up. Love your work. I was a skeptic back in the day when the thinset was being used for the bonding. I was on star tiles line of thinking for the redguard everything. But if a MFG is saying how to do it for a warranty as a pro. It's a tough thing to wade through. You are doing all the testing for many things and challenge them. Keep it up. The silane sealants is very interesting. Kerdi fix says its silane so that isn't the whole story. Flange just needs the adhesive to the membrane. One you have shown. Not their adhesive that's pre-applied. And may not be compatible with it self over time.
Once I started using the flo fx drains I won’t use the schluter ones. I don’t really trust warranties anyways, trust issues. 😂 next thing schluter needs to do is to allow their panels to glue together like hydro ban. Their thin set/banding method is slow and antiquated imho. Thank you for the testing Issac! Love these vids.
I don’t really see much of problem with the schluter flange. What you showed is that the flange did work. But when you agitate the mortar or fleece it will come undone. Maybe adding tile and then disassembling would make for a better resolution because you’d be adding weight to it.
Issac. I’m beginning my tile business I’ve been to the Schluter workshop and done a few backsplashes. I look at all of your lessons and info and appreciate it greatly. Anytime I have a question I look to your videos or call some reps I’ve become friends with. Thanks for what you do!!
So, I remember watching your video about the water wicking into the thinset. I bought Schluter about five years ago when I did my tub surround and just being DIY guy that was something that I immediately thought of. I wasn't as concerned since I was using it in a tub. However, I have put my walk in shower on hold for awhile and just saw you sell a new flange, which I have purchased. Do you still use water proofing (rx 8+9) even with this new flange? I have Mapei Aquadefense which I was going to use regardless, but wanted to know if you think that product is suitable or should I buy something different? I am using Kerdi preformed 48x48 shower tray.
Based on your response to a comment below, the flange failed in the field due to an incorrect install. It would be helpful to understand what install issue caused the problem as the way you described the problem it seemed to be an engineering design issue vs an install issue. Just like many of us, trying to understand how to improve on installs and better serve the clients and have less call backs.
When installing the Schluter system if you follow the instructions and training its flawless. If you are trying to be a tile installer and just aren't cut out for it, you make videos like this guy. This guy doesn't butter his bread setting tile.
Not really a fail of the product, just because the fleece comes off under the stress of being ripped along with the thinset doesn't mean that the fleece is going to leak under normal conditions, it just means the thinset bonded well
Yeah, I’m not sure I understand what the ultimate problem is. The flange under the white fleece is still intact and water proof. The stuff isn’t going to peel up on its own.
how is Flow FX any different in terms of the way the fleece bonds to the plastic. We know how and why the fleece material bonds to thinset, but how does the fleece bond to the plastic in these BF drains?
That’s interesting Isaac and th o owing, not fun of those flanges anyway and prefer the flofx, rss instead. But flofx are my fav to use, thx to you showing us, and really do appreciate that tip. Cheers🙏🏻
You look like you've been around the block with this tiling stuff... Nice work btw man! So I was thrown into a bath reno and need to figure out where to stop my wall board whatever that is, in the tub area as I'm abutting up to existing wood lath and plaster on adjacent wall. The plaster I'm removing in tub area is approx 1/2" thick so figured I'd leave the lath there. The rest of the tub area is down to studs. H E L P Thx for any input..
I saw Landberg put a bead of sealant on top of the flange, under the membrane around the flange recently, using Laticrete products. Would that prevent wicking altogether? Could you do that with KerdiFix? Seems like a simple solution.
It may have not been a perfect test with all variables and non variables locked down, but a good quality product overcomes these typically. Any of the industry standard building materials usually outperform a lot of human error even. If this drain had a weak base, subfloor, and/ or 300+ gorilla showering above it, it's going to flex. If those micro flexs are enough to break the manufactured bond then I don't want to risk that. Tiling a small shower is expensive as $#@& let alone a large deluxe one. I don't understand why people are trying to belittle it or saying they don't see the problem. That part needs to be able to take a hit from a scud middle and not leak after.
One year under water is way more exposure than a shower would get. 8760 hours soaked and 90% of the fleece stayed and you had to pull the fleece. I would agree that the ones you pulled may have been defective. How long have these drains been around and how many actual issue have their been. As installers we always want to find someone else or something else at fault for a failure.
I dunno. 1 year of exposure really isn’t all that much. A shower might only be used once, twice perhaps three times a day, but if water gets under there, it’s constant exposure as well. Just never drys out. In terms of a 5 year old shower, that’s a heck of a lot more hours than just a year. If there was constant air movement under there, I could see it drying between uses, but there’s no air movement.
@@jmlcolorado it's 8760 hours of immersed exposure. A shower never is immersed. It's wet but not immersed. 3 30 minute showers a day would only be 548 hours of waste exposure but immersion. Sorry but this isn't a true test that could equate to real world experience.
@@jmlcolorado That is why shower floor pans are sloped, in order to allow the majority of water to drain due to gravity, minimizing the chance of standing water. if the initial waterproofing job is done properly, the chances of failure should be minimal. If your shower has standing water in it constantly, then the floor wasn't sloped properly or you have bigger plumbing problems to worry about more than flange problems.
I'm always amazed at how many issues this guy has with schluter. I've used it on probably 100 plus showers over the last 10 years and have never had ONE SINGLE PROBLEM. That leads me to believe the problem is with this guy and how he installs it...
The real world test would be to do a mock up of actual shower pan with tile and run hot water over it 4 times a day. The hot water will seep through the grout and cause the thinset et. to break down. Would need to run the hot water on it for at least 20 min each time. It would be the true test and you would have to be commited ! Cold water doesn't react in the same way. That test would be an eye opener for those who think using thinset is a good idea!
Makes me wonder if the thinset on top of it what is used for the tile to be set eats through the membrane and causes this to happen. I mean you have to use a schluter allset specially formulated mud to put under the membrane. I wonder if there is a way of testing that out. 🤔
Interesting, my installs may not have this issue as the way my brain rethinks anything I do. The caulk sealant I use (Sika, Goboard sealant, hydroban sealant) I set the bonding flange and drain flange in sealant and seal them till it reaches the pvc. Still sounds like a food reason to upgrade to flow effects
I currently have this product. It was purchased over two years ago, so I can't return it. What do you recommend I use with this product so I don't have this problem. It is going into a Kerdi foam shower floor.
The question is... will using another flange affect the warranty! Overall, that dilemma is the other question. How does this warranty work? Upto what extent they will be covering the costs of redoing a failed tile work.
So what proof do we have that the alternative drain won't do the same thing? Maybe it will take 10 years, we don't know. What product do we know for sure that will last at least 30 years?
Good test! But what it wil do with soap and water for one year? The product itself seems to be alright. I ll think i rather remove the white fiber stuf. And do a good degreasing on the pan. Then the tinset under and above the shower floor. Then working the floor finish with the epoxy tile grout. Best to grout the wall's also with the epoxy grout, or at least 2" from the floor.
So with all the Schluter product failures highlighted when u build your personal curbless linear drain shower what are the products you would use on walls and the pan/floor? love to see a video of this is how we do it now……..
But it wasn't coming up until you peeled the Kerdi fabric off and started picking at it. So this should only be a problem if you have to replace a shower pan in which case, you a new one regardless
Hey Matt- the ones that were older peeled up really easy, like they were barely attached. But even at that so little water got under I’m not too worried about it. I have hundreds of these flanges installed on jobs we’ve done and as of yet, no issues. But I still think they can come up with a better bonding surface for the flanges. If you run into any old Kerdi showers, please let me know what you find under the flange.
@bobpeters289 that's just it. It released on its own and failed in a prior video. Yeah a normal environment after install isn't going to have a person picking at it, but given any other products that you don't want to come off, do they ever. I need more assurance that it's gonna stick. In my opinion there is no reason why a quality top of the line company like Schlueter couldn't revisit the design table and engineer something that will never release.
well if water got into the fleece then sounds like it was properly waterproofed. plus it's thinset too a fleece so what makes you think it wouldn't come off? it seems like pulling off the thinset pulled off the fleece.
I'm pretty new to all this Schluter stuff but watched a few of your videos. I was wondering since you don't pile on thinset on the flange before gluing the flange to the drain maybe you aren't packing as much thinset as you think under the flange. If someone is stepping on the flange when showering and it flexes but the Schluter that is set to the mud bed doesn't flex/stretch it can start ripping the white fiber off the flange. Maybe this is why you are having better luck with the thicker flange.
Sure, with time the weeping holes do get clogged by the mineral deposits in water. That can give off a musty smell from trapped water. I do think that by the time it happens folks usually are ready for a makeover. The other issue with 20mil is the way installers go over a curb for the shower and the two corners adjacent to the curb.
Have Schluter been in touch with you about this and in the video where you show this degradation of this product, was it covered by Schluters warranty for the customer? Thanks for sharing.
The adhesive should NOT be giving up due to water exposure. This is a FAIL. Given another year, in real world condition with thermal expansion and contraction, it would be failing. Shower floors should last decades...
If I use schulter I always liquid hydroban the flange. Cause I bought one one time where was coming undone. So I sanded it down then I put liquid hydroban over it. Been 8 years ago and I have nit gotten any call back on that job. Went back did backsplash and the shower I did still looking tough
I’m not a big fan of Schluter I’ve been wanting to try out the flanges that you’ve been using the FloFx I just haven’t got around to ordering them yet. And thanks for all the testing that you do on different products to help out all your viewers
If the manufacture just left the fleece off of the flange, then the installer could just use pure silicone. I would trust that over this current method.
The old conventional two-piece PVC drain with 40mil pan beats the Germans again. Don't forget the Germans also think it's ok to make car engines out of plastic.
The drain flange shouldn’t be exposed to water if the Kerdi membrane is set/sealed correctly. This test isn’t based on correct installation but an incorrect installation where the fleece becomes exposed to water.
I have never seen a video showing the correct drain installation by not blocking the gap around the drain with all-set, and not blocking the water from draining and collecting in that area. There should not be any water collecting around the drain unless the installer has not paid attention and put too much all-set around the drain and blocked the gap.
@@jmlcolorado The drain (link below) allows adjustments (gap). The installer needs to make sure that the gap is not blocked by all-set because any water leak under the tiles flowing towards the drain will have no where to drain and collect around the drain, same idea as not blocking weep holes with older type drain. www.amazon.com/KERDI-DRAIN-ABS-Drain-Stainless-Steel-Grate/dp/B00BUAXH6S/ref=sr_1_2?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhY-aBhCUARIsALNIC07zx6fgz3KGoMVYfMXPBysqx8Fhw1hMh7ypkXPre3F0Gk0EQCHkvH8aApU2EALw_wcB&hvadid=616931166640&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9011490&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8141079947182840481&hvtargid=kwd-6770512455&hydadcr=24634_13611738&keywords=schluter+kerdi+drain&qid=1665460940&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1LjAzIiwicXNhIjoiNC40MSIsInFzcCI6IjQuMTkifQ%3D%3D&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc
@@jmlcoloradoas you can see from this video, the all-set is applied only to the corners of the kerdi drain, therefore not blocking the adjustment gap under the drain and allowing any water leak to drain and not to collect in that area. th-cam.com/video/f1P6V7lfrag/w-d-xo.html
Well, that was just water the scenario in a shower is way more intense since there are different temperatures and chemicals being used daily with shampoo, soaps and what not… I’ve used Schlüter products forever and l haven’t have one single call back l might have to get back in my old job files and start calling customer 🤦🏼♂️
Ridiculous analogy! Shower drains stay wet 24/7/365 when used regularly. Sorry, Kerdi "waterproofing" does not work as advertised in real world scenarios. Only at the trade shows. They will all fail, if used continually, over time.
@@wwolfdogs Then why not do an experiment where water is sprayed onto the material for 15 minutes every 24 hours? Perhaps these showers will all fail in time. But submerging shower material does not prove that.
I highly doubt they did warranty the repair. From what I've heard is there's so many variables that it makes it easy for the manufacturer to say it wasn't done to their standards and therefore deny covering it. Even so, it would be good to hear from Issac about this.
One of them was done completely wrong by another installer, I didn’t even approach Schluter about it. The other one was done by me, but it was a wall float issue that had nothing to do with the pan.
Why, why, why are people still using schluter with all of these newer and better systems that cost less. I used 10 years ago on showers and realized quickly of it's design flaws.
So did it leak! You never said what the results were, Except to say, there is some black showing? Is that good? Bad ? Did it leak? Did you find what you expected? Geez
What a joke! This product fails because I mechanically rip it apart lol. Now buy thus new product that will void your Shluter warranty. I have installed 307 Kerdi shower systems, some with Kerdi preslopes most with mortar beds, not one failure in past 16 years.
I wish you would stop doing these silly videos. All you are showing is what happens when proven products are abused or incorrectly installed. You might as well just light an M80 off in the drain while you're at it.
Let’s see how your flow drain acts in 1 year in water lol. Not trying to knock your hustle tho you trying to sale your drains all it is hahaa nice try tho.
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I bet that the constant stepping on the flange while showering is what caused the flange and thinset to delaminate.
Since I saw that original video of the issue, I started adding Red guard after the initial prep to seal water off from getting between Kerdi and drain fleece.
Flo Fx for the win! You should do this same test with a flo fx, would be curious to see the results
This! I’ve transferred to flo FX drains myself, so I’d also be curious of a long term test of the flo fx drains too. Because who doesn’t like two years of buckets of water sitting in your shop 🤣😂
I had two Schluter round drains and one Linear drain failed so far. I had done more than 200 Schluter shower bases and I always worried about receiving calls from my previous customers. For all three failed, the reason was the drain itself but I have not received proper support from Schluter. They only took care of the Linear drain and they just provided replacement material and an installer to re-do the shower base. I had to pay for the new tile, the removal and re-install of the shower glass door and panels, I had to pay to fix the drywall and paint for the room downstairs.
Just a quick comment on the reason (in your test) the bonding may have not been degraded as much as it can be in the field. Many times the repeated transition from wet to dry will allow for more degradation than a constant submersion in water.
Also another possibility also is the addition of soaps, bleach, hair products to the mix.........all the possible variables the manufacturers have to deal with has to be a challenge.
PS, I am a home improvement contractor and have done a few dozen showers over the years (mostly old school liner or composite pan) and find your videos and your techniques on various ways to surface waterproof, to the best on the internet.......Thanks for all you do, and also for your honesty and openness on mistakes and how to deal with them.
Richard Gavle
Great, objective, impartial, and independent testing! Clearly, this video and your other videos on the subject, show that the flange needs to be improved upon!!!
Thank you for doing this video and testing this idea. I've installed a bit of schluter products and have attended 3 of their classes. They certainly make bold claims about the waterproof nature between band to kerdi but never say much about the transitions to ABS like this. I've got a thought that might be worth consideration. What about applying a water proof membrane like mapei or red guard to the area around the drain. The part of your test that's relatively inconclusive is the area that would under normal conditions should not receive moisture, from the side of the mortar where the band ring would meet the kerdi pan,. so it's hard to tell whether this conclusion isn't just water transfer from the side the whole way through to the drain side. Again thank you for doing this and you're absolutely right, a big problem with our trade is that once you leave a job you don't know exactly what happens over time. This kind of discourse could really increase our profession's quality.
Have you ever done red guard over a Kerdi system? Any issues?
@@jeffreyjbyron I have not. I'd test some scrap kerdi to see if the adhesion of the liquid membrane was good. As long as it stuck to it well my guess is that it would probably be fine. There is a chance that the materials may have chemicals that don't interact well with each other. You'd need some kind of long term test to know that for sure.
@@coupofmentality3417 I'm a homeowner and I'm considering doing my own shower, but Tile Coach's tests make me very wary of Schluter. I like how easy it is to set up, but for peace of mind I'd want to put a layer of hydraban or redguard over the whole thing. But yeah, I'm also worried about adhesion and chemical reactions over time...
I'll post here if I find new info.
@@jeffreyjbyron no matter what you do, knowing the process is crucial. It's hard to know why things fail and to be fair, no flange goes through this kind of treatment in regular use.
Longevity testing is a shortcoming in everything now days. This was an excellent example on a common product in the industry. This is clearly an issue, I just wonder what all factors play in to it occuring since obviously the level of failure can vary. Like, does even a small amount of flexing after the initial bit breaks free cause it to steadily get worse as it contacts water?(like in the original videos) In this case I would assume a regular use shower would probably be on borrowed time once the first bit gets under the fleece. Makes me worry about point load issues with things like penny rounds..
Have you tried any of these tests with FloFx?
Showers can get hot hot to speed it up. Love your work. I was a skeptic back in the day when the thinset was being used for the bonding. I was on star tiles line of thinking for the redguard everything. But if a MFG is saying how to do it for a warranty as a pro. It's a tough thing to wade through. You are doing all the testing for many things and challenge them. Keep it up. The silane sealants is very interesting. Kerdi fix says its silane so that isn't the whole story. Flange just needs the adhesive to the membrane. One you have shown. Not their adhesive that's pre-applied. And may not be compatible with it self over time.
Once I started using the flo fx drains I won’t use the schluter ones. I don’t really trust warranties anyways, trust issues. 😂 next thing schluter needs to do is to allow their panels to glue together like hydro ban. Their thin set/banding method is slow and antiquated imho. Thank you for the testing Issac! Love these vids.
Thanks Frank!
I don’t really see much of problem with the schluter flange. What you showed is that the flange did work. But when you agitate the mortar or fleece it will come undone. Maybe adding tile and then disassembling would make for a better resolution because you’d be adding weight to it.
water will always find its way in through osmosis even if weight is applied u can still get water osmosis
Schluter Workshop recommended letting thinset dry then apply kerdi fix sealant.
Have to do the same test with the flow effects flange.
Issac. I’m beginning my tile business I’ve been to the Schluter workshop and done a few backsplashes. I look at all of your lessons and info and appreciate it greatly. Anytime I have a question I look to your videos or call some reps I’ve become friends with.
Thanks for what you do!!
Going to my first Schluter workshop this week. Any tips or advice to get the most out of it?
@@travisburch4342 yeah, learn how to do a real mud pan. Mud and pan liner. These foam pans are easy but don’t last.
@apexfloordesignsllcjasonmo2327 I agree with you been doing mud pans for the past 36 years no problem have even remodel some from over 25 years ago
@@scottstrecker9867 if done correctly they stand the test of time for sure.
The foam pans to me are a substitute for craftsmanship.
So, I remember watching your video about the water wicking into the thinset. I bought Schluter about five years ago when I did my tub surround and just being DIY guy that was something that I immediately thought of. I wasn't as concerned since I was using it in a tub. However, I have put my walk in shower on hold for awhile and just saw you sell a new flange, which I have purchased. Do you still use water proofing (rx 8+9) even with this new flange? I have Mapei Aquadefense which I was going to use regardless, but wanted to know if you think that product is suitable or should I buy something different? I am using Kerdi preformed 48x48 shower tray.
Based on your response to a comment below, the flange failed in the field due to an incorrect install. It would be helpful to understand what install issue caused the problem as the way you described the problem it seemed to be an engineering design issue vs an install issue. Just like many of us, trying to understand how to improve on installs and better serve the clients and have less call backs.
If you watch the videos that I included links to in the description, I go into great detail of how those two systems failed.
Thanks. - appreciate all the time and effort you put into producing the videos and reading the comments.
Have a good one, and hope his help somewhat😃
So did Schlueter warranty these jobs?
I'll use Schluter if I have to but I won't guarantee it. Hydro Ban products are just so much better quality.
You mean Laticrete products
That’s pretty impressive test though.
When installing the Schluter system if you follow the instructions and training its flawless. If you are trying to be a tile installer and just aren't cut out for it, you make videos like this guy. This guy doesn't butter his bread setting tile.
Not really a fail of the product, just because the fleece comes off under the stress of being ripped along with the thinset doesn't mean that the fleece is going to leak under normal conditions, it just means the thinset bonded well
Yeah, I’m not sure I understand what the ultimate problem is. The flange under the white fleece is still intact and water proof. The stuff isn’t going to peel up on its own.
I think it's that water is seeping under the fleece, which means zero protection to literally leak out of the shower pan.
Also nothing under the Kerdi membrane should be exposed to water or your membrane isn’t set/seal properly.
The world isn't in lack of dummies. His tests and his other videos clearly show the deficiency of the flange.
Thank you for the content!
guess its time to test that flo Fx bonding flange for a year
how is Flow FX any different in terms of the way the fleece bonds to the plastic. We know how and why the fleece material bonds to thinset, but how does the fleece bond to the plastic in these BF drains?
That’s interesting Isaac and th o owing, not fun of those flanges anyway and prefer the flofx, rss instead. But flofx are my fav to use, thx to you showing us, and really do appreciate that tip.
Cheers🙏🏻
FloFx FTW 🙌
You look like you've been around the block with this tiling stuff... Nice work btw man!
So I was thrown into a bath reno and need to figure out where to stop my wall board whatever that is, in the tub area as I'm abutting up to existing wood lath and plaster on adjacent wall. The plaster I'm removing in tub area is approx 1/2" thick so figured I'd leave the lath there. The rest of the tub area is down to studs. H E L P Thx for any input..
I saw Landberg put a bead of sealant on top of the flange, under the membrane around the flange recently, using Laticrete products. Would that prevent wicking altogether? Could you do that with KerdiFix? Seems like a simple solution.
It may have not been a perfect test with all variables and non variables locked down, but a good quality product overcomes these typically. Any of the industry standard building materials usually outperform a lot of human error even. If this drain had a weak base, subfloor, and/ or 300+ gorilla showering above it, it's going to flex. If those micro flexs are enough to break the manufactured bond then I don't want to risk that. Tiling a small shower is expensive as $#@& let alone a large deluxe one. I don't understand why people are trying to belittle it or saying they don't see the problem. That part needs to be able to take a hit from a scud middle and not leak after.
So when are we going get a FloFx linear drain … 57 inch length to specific???
One year under water is way more exposure than a shower would get. 8760 hours soaked and 90% of the fleece stayed and you had to pull the fleece. I would agree that the ones you pulled may have been defective. How long have these drains been around and how many actual issue have their been. As installers we always want to find someone else or something else at fault for a failure.
I dunno. 1 year of exposure really isn’t all that much. A shower might only be used once, twice perhaps three times a day, but if water gets under there, it’s constant exposure as well. Just never drys out. In terms of a 5 year old shower, that’s a heck of a lot more hours than just a year.
If there was constant air movement under there, I could see it drying between uses, but there’s no air movement.
@@jmlcolorado it's 8760 hours of immersed exposure. A shower never is immersed. It's wet but not immersed. 3 30 minute showers a day would only be 548 hours of waste exposure but immersion. Sorry but this isn't a true test that could equate to real world experience.
@@jmlcolorado it also doesn't require air movement, just gravity and air that is less than the relative humidity.
@@jmlcolorado That is why shower floor pans are sloped, in order to allow the majority of water to drain due to gravity, minimizing the chance of standing water. if the initial waterproofing job is done properly, the chances of failure should be minimal. If your shower has standing water in it constantly, then the floor wasn't sloped properly or you have bigger plumbing problems to worry about more than flange problems.
I'm always amazed at how many issues this guy has with schluter. I've used it on probably 100 plus showers over the last 10 years and have never had ONE SINGLE PROBLEM. That leads me to believe the problem is with this guy and how he installs it...
I wonder if soap, shampoo, conditioner, etc. would adversely effect the allset adhesive? Add some of that to the test.
The real world test would be to do a mock up of actual shower pan with tile and run hot water over it 4 times a day. The hot water will seep through the grout and cause the thinset et. to break down. Would need to run the hot water on it for at least 20 min each time. It would be the true test and you would have to be commited ! Cold water doesn't react in the same way.
That test would be an eye opener for those who think using thinset is a good idea!
Makes me wonder if the thinset on top of it what is used for the tile to be set eats through the membrane and causes this to happen. I mean you have to use a schluter allset specially formulated mud to put under the membrane. I wonder if there is a way of testing that out. 🤔
Can’t help but ask what brand hat you got on man? This is a great video brotha!
Can you cover these Kerdi shower jobs with a roll on or spray on membrane like Redgard ? Will tile stick to the Redgard?
Interesting, my installs may not have this issue as the way my brain rethinks anything I do. The caulk sealant I use (Sika, Goboard sealant, hydroban sealant) I set the bonding flange and drain flange in sealant and seal them till it reaches the pvc. Still sounds like a food reason to upgrade to flow effects
I currently have this product. It was purchased over two years ago, so I can't return it. What do you recommend I use with this product so I don't have this problem. It is going into a Kerdi foam shower floor.
The question is... will using another flange affect the warranty! Overall, that dilemma is the other question. How does this warranty work? Upto what extent they will be covering the costs of redoing a failed tile work.
so whats the difference with the other drain then just it has a thicker fleece? is it more waterproof? whats the point
Would like to see the same test on the FloFX.
since when does water set in your shower for a year, I think any product would perform the same in those conditions.
So what proof do we have that the alternative drain won't do the same thing? Maybe it will take 10 years, we don't know. What product do we know for sure that will last at least 30 years?
Never used one still do old fashion mud pans have for 36 years no problem
So what are you using to this day ?
Great video. Question. I am interested in purchasing a FlowFX drain for my shower build this winter. Do you know if they ship to Canada?
You should do same test with FloFx drain
Good test! But what it wil do with soap and water for one year? The product itself seems to be alright. I ll think i rather remove the white fiber stuf. And do a good degreasing on the pan. Then the tinset under and above the shower floor. Then working the floor finish with the epoxy tile grout. Best to grout the wall's also with the epoxy grout, or at least 2" from the floor.
So what's the takeaway from this? I mean- I assume all will be well if installed correctly...?
So with all the Schluter product failures highlighted when u build your personal curbless linear drain shower what are the products you would use on walls and the pan/floor? love to see a video of this is how we do it now……..
But it wasn't coming up until you peeled the Kerdi fabric off and started picking at it. So this should only be a problem if you have to replace a shower pan in which case, you a new one regardless
It held up pretty well. Looks like kerdi changed their design at some point and fixed the problem.
Hey Matt- the ones that were older peeled up really easy, like they were barely attached. But even at that so little water got under I’m not too worried about it. I have hundreds of these flanges installed on jobs we’ve done and as of yet, no issues. But I still think they can come up with a better bonding surface for the flanges.
If you run into any old Kerdi showers, please let me know what you find under the flange.
It looks like you can see that some water was starting to get under the all-set in at least one spot "before" he started peeling anything.
It's not designed to be submerged under water
@bobpeters289 that's just it. It released on its own and failed in a prior video. Yeah a normal environment after install isn't going to have a person picking at it, but given any other products that you don't want to come off, do they ever. I need more assurance that it's gonna stick. In my opinion there is no reason why a quality top of the line company like Schlueter couldn't revisit the design table and engineer something that will never release.
well if water got into the fleece then sounds like it was properly waterproofed. plus it's thinset too a fleece so what makes you think it wouldn't come off? it seems like pulling off the thinset pulled off the fleece.
You can see that some water was starting to get under the all-set before he started peeling anything.
Thanks!
I'm pretty new to all this Schluter stuff but watched a few of your videos. I was wondering since you don't pile on thinset on the flange before gluing the flange to the drain maybe you aren't packing as much thinset as you think under the flange. If someone is stepping on the flange when showering and it flexes but the Schluter that is set to the mud bed doesn't flex/stretch it can start ripping the white fiber off the flange. Maybe this is why you are having better luck with the thicker flange.
Do you ever have to repair your old school oatey vinyl?
Sure, with time the weeping holes do get clogged by the mineral deposits in water. That can give off a musty smell from trapped water. I do think that by the time it happens folks usually are ready for a makeover. The other issue with 20mil is the way installers go over a curb for the shower and the two corners adjacent to the curb.
Have Schluter been in touch with you about this and in the video where you show this degradation of this product, was it covered by Schluters warranty for the customer? Thanks for sharing.
schluter stopped talking to him several years ago
@@bluearcherx Lol that's what happens I guess when you are impartial. Look at Project Veritas
now bang one of the flo Fx in the bucket for a year and do the same test
Great vid. If Schluter really had an issue they would have changed the flange. Your vid proves that the 20+ system can still work effectively
The adhesive should NOT be giving up due to water exposure. This is a FAIL. Given another year, in real world condition with thermal expansion and contraction, it would be failing. Shower floors should last decades...
Schluter may not be the best, but their system does work and proven.
If I use schulter I always liquid hydroban the flange. Cause I bought one one time where was coming undone. So I sanded it down then I put liquid hydroban over it. Been 8 years ago and I have nit gotten any call back on that job. Went back did backsplash and the shower I did still looking tough
I’m not a big fan of Schluter
I’ve been wanting to try out the flanges that you’ve been using the FloFx I just haven’t got around to ordering them yet. And thanks for all the testing that you do on different products to help out all your viewers
Thanks
So that was Modified All Set?
all set is modified already
Just another reason why I coat the entire install with Ardex 8+9
Roll on waterproofing around drain flange
Maybe it also has to do with the soaps draining with the water over the years.
Pan was compromised somewhere other than the drain and the water saturated the drain from underneath and damaged the white fleece of the flange
If the manufacture just left the fleece off of the flange, then the installer could just use pure silicone. I would trust that over this current method.
A bit of Hydroban liquid membrane over the top before thin-setting the sheet membrane should do the trick. lol
The old conventional two-piece PVC drain with 40mil pan beats the Germans again. Don't forget the Germans also think it's ok to make car engines out of plastic.
I've only got to words for this...HOT MOP
Thanks I
300 likes? Come on guys
I'm not a big fan of Kerdi, but i'm pretty sure it's not rated for full water submersion like a pool or water feature.
The drain flange shouldn’t be exposed to water if the Kerdi membrane is set/sealed correctly. This test isn’t based on correct installation but an incorrect installation where the fleece becomes exposed to water.
Lawsuit is coming out soon from S systems .
Maybe they changed their adhesive over the years
I have never seen a video showing the correct drain installation by not blocking the gap around the drain with all-set, and not blocking the water from draining and collecting in that area. There should not be any water collecting around the drain unless the installer has not paid attention and put too much all-set around the drain and blocked the gap.
I’m intrigued by your comment. Can you elaborate? What gap are you referring to?
@@jmlcolorado The drain (link below) allows adjustments (gap). The installer needs to make sure that the gap is not blocked by all-set because any water leak under the tiles flowing towards the drain will have no where to drain and collect around the drain, same idea as not blocking weep holes with older type drain. www.amazon.com/KERDI-DRAIN-ABS-Drain-Stainless-Steel-Grate/dp/B00BUAXH6S/ref=sr_1_2?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhY-aBhCUARIsALNIC07zx6fgz3KGoMVYfMXPBysqx8Fhw1hMh7ypkXPre3F0Gk0EQCHkvH8aApU2EALw_wcB&hvadid=616931166640&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9011490&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8141079947182840481&hvtargid=kwd-6770512455&hydadcr=24634_13611738&keywords=schluter+kerdi+drain&qid=1665460940&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1LjAzIiwicXNhIjoiNC40MSIsInFzcCI6IjQuMTkifQ%3D%3D&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc
@@jmlcoloradoas you can see from this video, the all-set is applied only to the corners of the kerdi drain, therefore not blocking the adjustment gap under the drain and allowing any water leak to drain and not to collect in that area. th-cam.com/video/f1P6V7lfrag/w-d-xo.html
@@George_us thanks for showing this!
But is dry under there on the bucket flange. Meh, user error.
stopped using those and switched to FloFx with hydroban on top
Well, that was just water the scenario in a shower is way more intense since there are different temperatures and chemicals being used daily with shampoo, soaps and what not…
I’ve used Schlüter products forever and l haven’t have one single call back l might have to get back in my old job files and start calling customer 🤦🏼♂️
the only real test is for a homeowner to let you tear out a shower floor after a year of normal use
What is this supposed to prove? My car keeps rain out perfectly. Perhaps I should submerge it for a year to be sure.
Ridiculous analogy! Shower drains stay wet 24/7/365 when used regularly.
Sorry, Kerdi "waterproofing" does not work as advertised in real world scenarios. Only at the trade shows. They will all fail, if used continually, over time.
@@wwolfdogs Then why not do an experiment where water is sprayed onto the material for 15 minutes every 24 hours? Perhaps these showers will all fail in time. But submerging shower material does not prove that.
The thing I don’t understand is your bonding it with thin set. Doesn’t thin-set absorb water. Why not bond it with something that doesn’t.
Did Schluter warranty those repairs?
I highly doubt they did warranty the repair. From what I've heard is there's so many variables that it makes it easy for the manufacturer to say it wasn't done to their standards and therefore deny covering it.
Even so, it would be good to hear from Issac about this.
One of them was done completely wrong by another installer, I didn’t even approach Schluter about it. The other one was done by me, but it was a wall float issue that had nothing to do with the pan.
@@TileCoach thank you for responding
Cold be operator error in not making a good bond and looking at what your doing was struggling to peel it off
Why, why, why are people still using schluter with all of these newer and better systems that cost less. I used 10 years ago on showers and realized quickly of it's design flaws.
Flo-fx.....all day
So did it leak!
You never said what the results were,
Except to say, there is some black showing?
Is that good?
Bad ?
Did it leak?
Did you find what you expected?
Geez
What a joke! This product fails because I mechanically rip it apart lol. Now buy thus new product that will void your Shluter warranty.
I have installed 307 Kerdi shower systems, some with Kerdi preslopes most with mortar beds, not one failure in past 16 years.
Let’s see, use better product and void warranty and not need it or use their product and need the warranty🤔. I’d rather not need the warranty.
Exactly!
Seems like a sponsored u fairly test…..
Never use
Kerdi,Shluter,Ditra.
Pure garbage.
I wish you would stop doing these silly videos. All you are showing is what happens when proven products are abused or incorrectly installed. You might as well just light an M80 off in the drain while you're at it.
Sounds live someone is begging to get sued by Schluter lol
Let’s see how your flow drain acts in 1 year in water lol. Not trying to knock your hustle tho you trying to sale your drains all it is hahaa nice try tho.