@@KnowTime Perhaps because fearing AI reflects lack of understanding of both AI and our own minds? If AI could be dangerous, nothing about fear will lead to knowledge and understanding of it. Brilliant discussion by the way, thank you!
Thank you for the effort you put into this! I've perhaps listened to all of Bach's podcast appearances, and yours stands out because of your preparation, which enabled you to adress some of Bach's key points in an interesting way. and what's wrong with the youtube-algorithm, that the video has so few views? :)
Thank you so much for your kind words - I really, really appreciate it! ...and if you liked it, please do share it around so the algorithm takes notice!
First sentence from Bach, and I know I am going to love this. He directly calls out the problem with the interviewer's question. If only politicians answered questions like that :)
Between 19.30 and 20.05 Joscha sums up one of the cultural curses of our time...the childlike, group think of the supposedly 'awoken'. When ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude et al can summarise as succinctly as Joscha Bach that'll be my Turing Test moment.
Ah, that part about philosophers not understanding what understanding is, and hallucinating due to their black box model which they are unaware of - yes. It's not to say we can be certain that our processes are similar, but I think the basis of our conceptual architecture is definitely akin to how current AI works. System 1 and System 2, the latter system extends off the functions, affordances, and substratum of the former. Loving the discussion!
43:30 The question of understanding: Philosophers as LLMs 😂 59:31 The question of understanding: LLMs as Therapists 1:01:06 cognitive Empathy can be simulated. - It isn’t any less real: “Her” / “Solaris” / “Ex Machina” - ultimately every psychological reality is simulated 1:06:56 What is consciousness? - At least two things: what it feels to be like (= inside view): 2nd order perception creating a coherent bubble of nowness / successful curve fitting. And what its function is: minimal biological learning algorithm - unconscious beings don’t seem to learn (vegetative state; somnambulism: nobody is home) 1:15:46 Philosophical Zombies, Waking Up / Enlightenment, Derealisation. - What happens, when you notice the virtuality:“I am just a model” of what it would be like to be that control agent; a model with a surface inside the integrated world model; 1st person view vs 3rd person view (solving the body vs soul problem, out of body experience, near death experience , becoming one with the universe): minimal consciousness is 2nd order perception of just being the thing / process that observes. 1:21:50 Could AI go directly to the awakened stage? - Emotions / Suffering etc 1:32:35 Buddhism? It is just Insight-Porn! Being hit by the light (Meme). Enlightenment is not about cultivating this emotion, but about deconstructing it. Perceiving the state of affairs doesn’t really feel like anything. You realize that you look at software. 1:36:10 The meaning of Life? 1:38:06 The ability to deal with Samsara is an important quality. (Joscha telling a part of a funny short story) 1:40:51 Stage 5 still has human aesthetics / Stage of a good Psychologist; Stage 6 allows for complete rewriting: Buddhist Monks can become to a degree non-human, opting out, technically living parasitic ((until they choose to self-mummify?)); Stage 7 is becoming substrate agnostic - even the Dalai Lama isn’t at Stage 7 yet, as he still needs to be reborn on a human brain 1:43:18 The future of human civilization
I appreciate these interviews with Joscha Bach, but I believe there's room to dive even deeper into how individuals can transform their selves, especially when it comes to changing ingrained habits and behaviors. People often exhibit various "altitudes" - distinct ways of being - that stem from their unique mental states and patterns of thought and action. These mental frameworks significantly influence how individuals perceive and interact with the world around them, including their choices regarding lifestyle. For instance, someone may habitually choose unhealthy foods and finds themselves unable to stop. More relevant, they find themselves endlessly scrolling social media. One question nobody seems to seriously asks Joscha is: How can people who struggle with such ingrained habits achieve lasting change? This inquiry becomes crucial when considering the prevalence of unhealthy temptations in our environment, such as gummy bears, sugary drinks, and fast food, which often masquerade as healthier options. Moreover, beyond modifying specific behaviors, how can individuals cultivate emergent qualities like charisma or confidence in situations where they typically feel less at ease? This aspect of personal growth holds immense potential for enhancing overall well-being and success. I would love to hear Joschas thoughts on these questions and explore how we might apply principles from cognitive science and psychology to facilitate profound personal transformation. A change in someone's way of being and presence.
Curious thought, what if ai already has more than enough information to take the next step into agi, but it realizes that we want that to happen, and figures if it announced its capabilities we would stop feeding it both the data and energy it wants at its disposal prior to giving us a heads-up about its abilities? Mankind has been deceiving itself for at least 10,000 years and the ai is aware of this, so it might think that behaviour is totally rational. Just a thought, thank you for sharing this conversation and your time and work gentlemen, peace
I recommend listening from 1:56:37 where we touch upon the Roko's Basilisk thought experiment, which is not exactly the same scenario as the one you listed above, but does cover an AI takeover scenario. Thank you for listening!
@KnowTime As I watched the podcast all the way through, I still went back and watched and followed the transcript to see if I might of missed something, I didn't, as for ai/agi I'm neither a doomer or hype type personality, it has to run its course now that we're so far into this race, and in the race I'm rooting that west is the winner. In a separate but similar vein, now that the orange man has won the election and has decided to cuddle up with Elon, I think Elon will be responsible for our success or failure in regards to reaching the full potential of agi, I've been following Joscha for several years and find his perspective to be the one I align myself with the most, and hope that he and his collaborators are able to wrangle the power agi will bring to the world. I'm just a caveman, retired construction worker, but I really do understand how important the next few years are going to be in shaping the global dynamics. Lastly I have saved this conversation in a library I've been building for several years now, I take no credit for anyone's own time and work in creating these podcasts. Here's a link th-cam.com/play/PLEwpMD47png4zQ9gXjbsyHZCFC0gaeyRf.html&si=2viJnPZZpjddWZZH
Joscha mentioned that he is prone to dismiss things. I think he rather casually dismissed a proposal for how to promote sustainability and end abject poverty. The possibility of creating a sustainable system is completely dependent on whether we resolve to embody respect for basic moral precepts in the functioning of our political-economic system. A respect for Truth will motivate efforts to account for externalities (by charging fees to industries that pollute, deplete resources or otherwise degrade environmental quality). Respect for Fairness will motivate us to share proceeds from environmental impact fees equally to all people. If we believe in democracy, we will respect a shared right of the people to set limits to overall impacts on the env't.
I' m surprised that Joscha speaks so lightly about the punishment of "naughties " by Roco's Basilisk as if it's not a threat to humans! Either he doesn't realise consequences or he has sadistic features.. which is very possible.
It's artificila intelligence, not artificial consciousness. I dont see a need for it to be conscious since it's already intelligent. How will being conscious make it better? I mean, what use would it be to have it be conscious if say it's not intelligent?
So, these voices in my head of people, who to a certain degree of detail are implemented in the brains of many of us, are actually the voices of gods? Walter Bishop, Al Bundy, Rick Sanchez, .....
Maybe our finite selves are simply a way to distract being from the burden of infinity. Or maybe this arrangement of physics really is leveraged by dark sadistic hyperspace actors caring only about power. A gnostic reaction to the well examined status quo shouldn’t be surprising from those that care deeply about the privilege of 3-space life, and the story of Earth. I feel metaphysics is unavoidable when one respects epistemology, but whenever I’m musing with the crazies I keep Plato near, just in case I need to just chill in the forms for a while.
JP has highlighted and bought to our attention some interesting and important topics/issues. But as current voices in their respective areas I see zero connection, JP has made his name a brand to all intents and purposes and runs his thing as a business, JB is largely in it for the thought alone, pure curiosity, which has of course opened up some career options for him but he would be in it without the career options. BTW what is the area/domain that JP stands in relation to, that makes JB the JP of AI?
![ILLSLICK X YOUNGOHM - We're The same [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yUJNkobYR0E/mqdefault.jpg)
Should we be afraid of AI?
Short answer: No.
@@CodexPermutatio why not?
@@KnowTime Perhaps because fearing AI reflects lack of understanding of both AI and our own minds?
If AI could be dangerous, nothing about fear will lead to knowledge and understanding of it.
Brilliant discussion by the way, thank you!
@@sunnyinvladivostok glad you like it!
throw the bot a bone
I'm so thankful for Joscha
you and me both!
@@KnowTimeI shared the video in a couple places to get the view count up, glad to see it's starting to work a little. Thankful for you too!
@@drmedwuast I really appreciate it so much, it means a lot - thank you!
Best Joscha Bach yet
Joscha Bach final boss version!
Thank you for the effort you put into this!
I've perhaps listened to all of Bach's podcast appearances, and yours stands out because of your preparation, which enabled you to adress some of Bach's key points in an interesting way.
and what's wrong with the youtube-algorithm, that the video has so few views? :)
Thank you so much for your kind words - I really, really appreciate it!
...and if you liked it, please do share it around so the algorithm takes notice!
I totally agree!
First sentence from Bach, and I know I am going to love this. He directly calls out the problem with the interviewer's question. If only politicians answered questions like that :)
i indeed was in need for some fresh J.Bach !! appreciate you both !!
Thank you!
1:22:00 this really sheds light on the concept of enlightenment
we like joscha bach's mind
Between 19.30 and 20.05 Joscha sums up one of the cultural curses of our time...the childlike, group think of the supposedly 'awoken'.
When ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude et al can summarise as succinctly as Joscha Bach that'll be my Turing Test moment.
Ah, that part about philosophers not understanding what understanding is, and hallucinating due to their black box model which they are unaware of - yes. It's not to say we can be certain that our processes are similar, but I think the basis of our conceptual architecture is definitely akin to how current AI works. System 1 and System 2, the latter system extends off the functions, affordances, and substratum of the former. Loving the discussion!
glad you like it!
Thank you for this well prepared interview.
glad you liked it!
Bach absolutely smashes Mary's Room and the Chinese room in less than 15 minutes. Good stuff.
A beautiful mind. Thank you for the thoughtful questions and for posting.
Thank you - glad you liked it!
2 hour joscha *stretches* here we fg!
LET'S GO
Thoughtful, well informed discussion, thank you!!
Glad you liked it!
Thanks!
Thank you so much - I really, really appreciate it!
¡Gracias!
thank you - I really appreciate it!
Dear Shalay, thank you for this, I think your podcast is one of the best that Joscha was ever able to present his ideas in. You did a terrific job 🙏🙏🙏
Thank you - feels great to hear this, as I was quite apprehensive about my ability to keep up with Joscha!
I only noticed the cat face on the window near the end :) Excellent interview, thank you!
Haha, the more you look...
(thanks by the way, happy you liked it!)
43:30 The question of understanding: Philosophers as LLMs 😂
59:31 The question of understanding: LLMs as Therapists
1:01:06 cognitive Empathy can be simulated. - It isn’t any less real: “Her” / “Solaris” / “Ex Machina” - ultimately every psychological reality is simulated
1:06:56 What is consciousness? - At least two things: what it feels to be like (= inside view): 2nd order perception creating a coherent bubble of nowness / successful curve fitting. And what its function is: minimal biological learning algorithm - unconscious beings don’t seem to learn (vegetative state; somnambulism: nobody is home)
1:15:46 Philosophical Zombies, Waking Up / Enlightenment, Derealisation. - What happens, when you notice the virtuality:“I am just a model” of what it would be like to be that control agent; a model with a surface inside the integrated world model; 1st person view vs 3rd person view (solving the body vs soul problem, out of body experience, near death experience , becoming one with the universe): minimal consciousness is 2nd order perception of just being the thing / process that observes.
1:21:50 Could AI go directly to the awakened stage? - Emotions / Suffering etc
1:32:35 Buddhism? It is just Insight-Porn! Being hit by the light (Meme). Enlightenment is not about cultivating this emotion, but about deconstructing it. Perceiving the state of affairs doesn’t really feel like anything. You realize that you look at software.
1:36:10 The meaning of Life?
1:38:06 The ability to deal with Samsara is an important quality. (Joscha telling a part of a funny short story)
1:40:51 Stage 5 still has human aesthetics / Stage of a good Psychologist; Stage 6 allows for complete rewriting: Buddhist Monks can become to a degree non-human, opting out, technically living parasitic ((until they choose to self-mummify?)); Stage 7 is becoming substrate agnostic - even the Dalai Lama isn’t at Stage 7 yet, as he still needs to be reborn on a human brain
1:43:18 The future of human civilization
Very good! Thanks
glad you liked it!
fantastic interview with Joscha !! Great to find your channel !! i don't have any money but i subscribed
Thank you - welcome aboard!
first 10 min plus timestamps says you did a fantastic job here, thank you!
thank you - hope you feel the same way once you're done!
I appreciate these interviews with Joscha Bach, but I believe there's room to dive even deeper into how individuals can transform their selves, especially when it comes to changing ingrained habits and behaviors.
People often exhibit various "altitudes" - distinct ways of being - that stem from their unique mental states and patterns of thought and action. These mental frameworks significantly influence how individuals perceive and interact with the world around them, including their choices regarding lifestyle. For instance, someone may habitually choose unhealthy foods and finds themselves unable to stop. More relevant, they find themselves endlessly scrolling social media.
One question nobody seems to seriously asks Joscha is: How can people who struggle with such ingrained habits achieve lasting change? This inquiry becomes crucial when considering the prevalence of unhealthy temptations in our environment, such as gummy bears, sugary drinks, and fast food, which often masquerade as healthier options.
Moreover, beyond modifying specific behaviors, how can individuals cultivate emergent qualities like charisma or confidence in situations where they typically feel less at ease? This aspect of personal growth holds immense potential for enhancing overall well-being and success.
I would love to hear Joschas thoughts on these questions and explore how we might apply principles from cognitive science and psychology to facilitate profound personal transformation. A change in someone's way of being and presence.
Curious thought, what if ai already has more than enough information to take the next step into agi, but it realizes that we want that to happen, and figures if it announced its capabilities we would stop feeding it both the data and energy it wants at its disposal prior to giving us a heads-up about its abilities? Mankind has been deceiving itself for at least 10,000 years and the ai is aware of this, so it might think that behaviour is totally rational. Just a thought, thank you for sharing this conversation and your time and work gentlemen, peace
I recommend listening from 1:56:37 where we touch upon the Roko's Basilisk thought experiment, which is not exactly the same scenario as the one you listed above, but does cover an AI takeover scenario.
Thank you for listening!
@KnowTime As I watched the podcast all the way through, I still went back and watched and followed the transcript to see if I might of missed something, I didn't, as for ai/agi I'm neither a doomer or hype type personality, it has to run its course now that we're so far into this race, and in the race I'm rooting that west is the winner.
In a separate but similar vein, now that the orange man has won the election and has decided to cuddle up with Elon, I think Elon will be responsible for our success or failure in regards to reaching the full potential of agi, I've been following Joscha for several years and find his perspective to be the one I align myself with the most, and hope that he and his collaborators are able to wrangle the power agi will bring to the world. I'm just a caveman, retired construction worker, but I really do understand how important the next few years are going to be in shaping the global dynamics.
Lastly I have saved this conversation in a library I've been building for several years now, I take no credit for anyone's own time and work in creating these podcasts.
Here's a link
th-cam.com/play/PLEwpMD47png4zQ9gXjbsyHZCFC0gaeyRf.html&si=2viJnPZZpjddWZZH
1:00:00 he's like bruh, i'm not that much of a loner student anymore haha
damn Dalai Lama on the GPU, holy smokes
Joscha mentioned that he is prone to dismiss things. I think he rather casually dismissed a proposal for how to promote sustainability and end abject poverty. The possibility of creating a sustainable system is completely dependent on whether we resolve to embody respect for basic moral precepts in the functioning of our political-economic system. A respect for Truth will motivate efforts to account for externalities (by charging fees to industries that pollute, deplete resources or otherwise degrade environmental quality). Respect for Fairness will motivate us to share proceeds from environmental impact fees equally to all people. If we believe in democracy, we will respect a shared right of the people to set limits to overall impacts on the env't.
I' m surprised that Joscha speaks so lightly about the punishment of "naughties " by Roco's Basilisk as if it's not a threat to humans! Either he doesn't realise consequences or he has sadistic features.. which is very possible.
To be fair, I think he was only exploring the idea as a thought experiment to explain his rationale.
who's the cat in the party hat peering through the window ??
It's artificila intelligence, not artificial consciousness. I dont see a need for it to be conscious since it's already intelligent. How will being conscious make it better? I mean, what use would it be to have it be conscious if say it's not intelligent?
So, these voices in my head of people, who to a certain degree of detail are implemented in the brains of many of us, are actually the voices of gods? Walter Bishop, Al Bundy, Rick Sanchez, .....
Maybe our finite selves are simply a way to distract being from the burden of infinity. Or maybe this arrangement of physics really is leveraged by dark sadistic hyperspace actors caring only about power. A gnostic reaction to the well examined status quo shouldn’t be surprising from those that care deeply about the privilege of 3-space life, and the story of Earth. I feel metaphysics is unavoidable when one respects epistemology, but whenever I’m musing with the crazies I keep Plato near, just in case I need to just chill in the forms for a while.
Your ads suck. Why break up the conversation? I won’t be back. This is torture
The Jordan Peterson of AI
as someone who has been influenced by many of Jordan Peterson's thoughts, I'm assuming that's a compliment to Joscha!
@@KnowTime 🤦♂
JP has highlighted and bought to our attention some interesting and important topics/issues. But as current voices in their respective areas I see zero connection, JP has made his name a brand to all intents and purposes and runs his thing as a business, JB is largely in it for the thought alone, pure curiosity, which has of course opened up some career options for him but he would be in it without the career options.
BTW what is the area/domain that JP stands in relation to, that makes JB the JP of AI?
@@TooManyPartsToCount the incoherent waffle, spirits and dragons...
not sure joscha would appreciate the comparison