Why and How to Prevent ELBOW DROP During Your Stroke

[@DrDaveBilliards]

*Contents:*
0:00 - Intro
0:46 - Stroke Types
1:49 - Advantages and Disadvantages
3:00 - How to Eliminate
---- 3:44 - air strokes
---- 6:12 - focus on mechanics
---- 7:13 - use a wall
7:53 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- elbow-drop resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/elbow-drop/
- stroke “best practices” advice: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/technique/
- “Pool Terminology” video: th-cam.com/video/5pAlv7RAaoo/w-d-xo.html
- “Top 10 SECRETS of a Good DRAW SHOT” video: th-cam.com/video/5WPOf3ECEe4/w-d-xo.html
- “How to Find Your PERSONAL BEST STANCE” video: th-cam.com/video/Uqw5sCEx190/w-d-xo.html
- “Finding Your Ideal Personal VISION CENTER” video: th-cam.com/video/5vgY89yDrjE/w-d-xo.html
- stance advice resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stance/advice/
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's TH-cam Channel:*
th-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards

[@jesleysnipes3758]

Thanks for these videos Dr. Dave. My two favorite teachers are you and Stan Shuffet. I've learned so much from both your approaches to the game. I admire the time people like you have dedicated to this sport. I look forward to the next video!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome. Thanks for the supportive comments.

[@Crxig3]

I literally JUST figured the shoulder tuck out a few days ago. It makes a world of difference.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Lock and load!

[@bigpoppapump620]

Firstly, this is very helpful. This info is very comprehensive, and I’m finding much if the elbow techniques useful. The comedy is epic too. Almost as good as the expression you gave after purposely missing in another video.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad you found it helpful, and I'm glad you enjoy my periodic attempts at comedy. I don't expect any Academy Award nominations, but I have fun doing it.

[@manuelmartinez7988]

Thanks a lot , Dr. Dave. I really love your channel and appreciate the time you take to spend it teaching us with great content.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome. I'm glad you like my stuff.

[@KTHKUHNKK]

Great tips Dave
I was always taught to keep your stick level when you're stroking.
I watch Efron a lot.
If you notice the tip on his stick it goes up and down you can never tell if he's going to hit it real low or center it's very disturbing for me to watch it.
But he does what's right for him.

[@vcoolpool]

Thanks Doctor Dave, this video is very important. Glad you made it. Thanks again,

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad you think so. I expected it to generate more controversy with differing opinions, but none yet.

[@martinquinn3382]

Thanks a lot, great tips and explanations !

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome, and thank you. FYI, I have a lot more useful videos and info dealing with stroke mechanics here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/
Enjoy!

[@mojoxphotography]

This is good info and helps with a recent issue I discovered I had. After taking a slow motion video of my break I could see that what I thought was a nice powerful straight shot actually looked like I was waving a magic wand with my cue stick like some sort of Hogwarts Pool wizard, but not one of the good wizards. So I've been working on strokes and this helps.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad to hear it. I hope your new "Muggle" ways help.

[@ShortstopOnPool]

Love this! You came at the topic from a different direction with new information and perspective. And thanks for linking my video on your page!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you, and you’re welcome. Your video is also excellent (hence it being on my page).

[@ShortstopOnPool]

@@DrDaveBilliards I forgot something. You mentioned tips for those seeking to not drop their elbow. I like "hand-to-chest" but have found some find it hard and some (especially women) don't like it. A good alternative is "finish with the tip on the table". This achieves the same thing.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I should have mentioned that. Thanks. I've added it here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/elbow-drop/
Although, when helping a student with technique, I general like to focus on direct actions rather than indirect outcomes. For example, I would never tell a student to "follow through." Instead, I would say "accelerate smoothly through the ball." With the proper action (accelerate), the outcome (follow through) will occur. Otherwise the student might try to artificially create the outcome (e.g. by moving the shoulder and dropping the elbow to exaggerate the follow through).

[@tslavin11]

Any stroke improvement pays huge dividends.
I think every few weeks a stroke tune up really helps.
I also think that delivering a straight stroke does not necessarily require a power stroke. Not everyone will achieve a straight and powerful stroke.
If you ever played golf with the old timer that drives the ball short, but always on the green is a similar analogy.
Great video Dr Dave!!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for the comments. I'm glad you liked the video.

[@randallgibson8619]

I really appreciate this video and all the videos you put out. I couldn’t understand as a beginner why I was slapping g the rail with my cue. Now I know I’m dropping the elbow. Working on my stroke and follow through have been a real game changer on my game as a beginner. Thanks again!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad you're not a "rail banger" anymore.

[@hanspw]

Fantastic good vids with awesome tips from the no 1.. Dr Daves vids in combination with Niels Feijens drill vids are outstanding 🎱👌😊

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. I agree that Niels vids are outstanding. I watch every one from beginning to end.

[@MsTyrie]

Good point about the "chicken wing" setup. I find it reinforces the wrist curl error. The elbow starts off the plane, and as it approximates the plane in the stroke, the wrist follows, and compensating for extraplanar biomechanics makes us scratch our heads.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Good explanation.

[@victorpenaranda9786]

GRANDE !!!! gracias por los videos , un saludo desde BARCELONA .

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome. Greetings from Colorado in the US.

[@beercanbrian1880]

Outstanding!!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks!!

[@Nohoihoewa]

Thank you !

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You’re welcome !

[@Fearless13289]

This help me improve my game alot ey I know feel when I make my strokes that my elbow is really locked in the same position this tutorial helped me alot thanks Dave I use the pendulum stroke💯🔥

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I’m glad to hear it.

[@scottpickett4140]

Really good video of stroke execution

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. I’m glad you liked it.

[@samaitcheson7057]

These are excellent tips to improve shot consistency. I've worked extensively to keep my shoulder and elbow from unwanted movement and it definitely has helped with long shots and playing the cue ball from tight on the cushion
A curious thing is that when I'm timing the ball well my elbow drops naturally and I get better action on the cue ball and improved power. I feel less restricted in my cue action. The work I've done, and as you highlight here Dave, on getting consistency in my action has allowed me to not need to use it as much. It sounds paradoxical but I think muscle memory is playing a big part In giving me a more free and relaxed, yet consistent, cue action.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Shoulder motion can definite add power, but at a price (less accuracy and consistency).

[@raferb]

I'm not sure, but I think I change my 'elbow drop' based on whether a shot requires a long follow through, or a short poke. Another great video Dave!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I keep my elbow still (or at least try to) on all shots (except the break).

[@gman5051]

Great topic Dr. Dave ! When I’m missing , I always do the rail check , and air strokes to reset …that seems to dial me back in . Thanks again man !

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)

[@cosmicraysshotsintothelight]

@@DrDaveBilliards So funny, because as you know... I swerve to aim. Just look at my bridge hand. ;-) th-cam.com/video/qxgnRwucq1s/w-d-xo.html

[@ScottsPoolSchool]

FYI, another good way when working with a student to prevent elbow drop or premature shoulder motion is to lightly press downward on the upper arm just behind the elbow. Applying light pressure downward will often result in the player pushing back up to counter the resistenance and help ingrain the feeling of keeping the elbow in place.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That’s a good idea. I’ll give it a try.

[@Fearless13289]

Great sir I gotta give this one a try on my preshot routine it's a bit hard for me to keep my shoulder striaght on the shot line without moving my arm I will be busy with the drills thanks once again Dave I love your tutorial video's they help me to improve alot🔥💯

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I’m glad you liked it, and I hope it helps.

[@Fearless13289]

@@DrDaveBilliards it really does much appreciated Dave💯👌

[@rpmevo8]

I tend to do this when fatigued. My shoulder was rebuilt from rotator cuff tearing and they relocated my biceps tendon to my humerus and messed with the structural integrity and natural mechanics. I’ve been fighting this for 3 years now. I can only jump (very well though) using the “dart” method since I can’t jack it up too high. The tuck in is the tough part.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Many people (even without rebuilt shoulders) drop their elbow more when they get tired or lazy.

[@harryjoelsson7232]

What happens when someone walks in while you're recording yourself doing something funny out of context, like at 7:40 😂

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... just polishing the wall, boss. :)

[@starrcollins5214]

The two finest most flowing pool strokes on the pro tour today are those of Fedor Gorst and Max Lechner. Both are poetry in motion and both are also big advocates of what's commonly called the "J" stroke, a slow pinned elbow backstroke and smoothly dropping elbow through stroke. Ronnie O'Sullivan, another great, also does this as does Jasmine and Albin Ouschan, Max Eberle in the US and countless other amazing pro cueists. Piston not pendulum straight through the cue ball not to the cloth. Using your whole arm and shoulder.
If one loves pool perfecting your cueing will be a lifelong pursuit, why not expend some time and effort to learn and work on both pinned and the dropping elbow J stroke techniques as a way to be a more complete player? It seems, especially in the US, that teaching cueing is very devoted, almost in a dogmatic way, to the pinned elbow technique even when there are many examples of great players that don't do it. When high level pool is being played both ways it seems to me harder and harder to support that the pinned elbow is the one best way to teach players to cue. I went down this rabbit hole myself and when I let it go I discovered that for me the J stroke when worked on and given a chance is the superior method for a serious player. Watch Fedor for a while and then try to convince yourself it isn't.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Agreed. Many top players have mastered the "J" stroke. There are also many top players (especially in the snooker world) who have mastered the pendulum stroke. Any technique can be mastered with enough practice. FYI, there are both advantages and disadvantages to elbow drop, per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/elbow-drop/#advantages

[@starrcollins5214]

@@DrDaveBilliards I am a lifelong pool enthusiast and as such I have spent years perfecting the drop elbow stroke. It was not until I moved to the elbow dropping dark side did I realize that had I spent those years perfecting the J stroke I would be a better player. Come to the dark side Dr. Dave and forever it will dominate your destiny.😎

[@starrcollins5214]

I meant to say I spent years perfecting the pinned elbow stroke. Getting much better when I gave myself permission to let the arm and shoulder work as my body wanted them to work.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@starrcollins5214 I've had the opposite experience. I played "naturally" for years, and my game got much better when I started keeping my shoulder and elbow still during the stroke. I have also seen many students get better when they eliminate unnecessary motion. But again, a "J" stroke is great if one's elbow-drop timing is late enough and consistent, especially if the elbow drops perfectly straight down.

[@starrcollins5214]

@@DrDaveBilliards The thing Is, for me, I needed to be sure I wasn't wasting my time so I tested both and in doing so the results were not even close. I used the mighty x stroke drill. For years I've used this drill to perfect my pinned elbow stroke, I got better with it but I always had the same miss tendency and as hard as I tried I couldn't fully fix it. One night, after missing the same way again the hundredth time, I decided to try something, I stopped pinning my elbow and went with the J stroke, my results were immediately better, not just that night but every night since. No theories just measurable results from a set standard. I'm much more consistent and pure with the J stroke. Granted everyone is different but everyone should spend some time working with both techniques to determine what stroke works best for them.
Respectfully I see your site as the one objective resource for pool and billiard information on the internet, but making multiple videos clearly devoted to the pinned elbow stroke being the most correct way is putting forth a point of view. While you do talk about the J stroke, it is clear you don't give it much attention or credibility. I believe you truly want to impart tested information about at this sport as impartially as you possibly can. I also believe there is more to talk about with the stroke then not dropping your elbow. If you don't believe in it for yourself that's fine but maybe consider doing a video with a professional J stroker, interview him or her and let's hear how and why they stroke that way, no bias. How could more information be bad. If anything it is an interesting idea for more content on your TH-cam site.

[@benh1356]

Great video do you have any advice to keep the wrist straight along with the shoulder drop in your stroke I have always had a shoulder drop for 15 years and am a 7 in 8 ball and 8 in 9 ball but noticed on video I bend my wrist in and would like to fix it im guessing I have always done it and never did know it

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If you can drop your elbow straight down, that would help. If it doesn't, it might help to try to limit or eliminate the shoulder and elbow motion. Advice for how to do this can be found under "How can I get rid of elbow drop?" here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/elbow-drop/
Also do your best to keep your grip and wrist relaxed during the stroke per the info and demos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/grip/technique/

[@GetMeThere1]

I think a lot can be gained from studying the top snooker players. They have to play at the highest level of accuracy, and they CANNOT maintain top competitive levels without near perfect accuracy. I'd love to see you analyze the strokes of some of the top snooker players in a video.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm probably not the best person to do this since I don't play snooker, but I do agree with you that they have excellent technique. Most of the things they do well are covered here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/technique/

[@sj460162]

This has really helped me. Ive always thought you needto drop your elbow on backswing and follow through like the snooker pros. But when I keep my elbow still after watching this I really feel a lot more accurate.
But how does the cue travel flat to the table if a pendulam action is used?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I’m glad to hear it helped. With a pendulum stroke, the tip motion is very straight just before and after CB contact (even though this isn’t really necessary). For more info, see the videos, illustrations, links, and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/pendulum-piston/

[@edwardborgias]

If anyone wants to see a prime example of a textbook stroke with minimal movement watch Alex Higgins for 2 min .. you're welcome in advance.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I also have some good pro pool examples in my "10 Secrets of a GOOD STROKE in Pool" video:
th-cam.com/video/JeZPLFW3MBg/w-d-xo.html

[@dnbmania]

Alex higgins is like a robot. So graceful and concise

[@8329kelso]

I notice that when you demonstrate elbow drop you raise the cue. Does this happen when you have a tight wrist? Usually I don't see elbow droppers' cues go up like that.
Thanks for the video. I was worried about my elbow drop, but it doesn't seem to have any of the detrimental attributes you pointed out. Thanks Dr. Dave!! Saved me that time I would have spent relearning the stroke.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The butt goes down and the tip goes up if the elbow is dropped early (before the hit on the CB) or too much (during the follow through).

[@CocoboloCowboy]

More good medicine from Dr. Dave.👍

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That's me ... the "Pool Medicine Man."

[@CocoboloCowboy]

@@DrDaveBilliards now you need Hat with Feather.🤩

[@LeadingIndicator]

The technique at 4:05 is also good for hustlers learning to play “no look” pool. With a bit of practice, you can look over your right shoulder and still pocket balls with authority. The trick will be to NEVER look, and use only sound to confirm that you made the shot … once you contact the ball, keep your eyes looking back over your shoulder and don’t turn your head. Cheers.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It is also fun to practice like that (or just closing your eyes) to focus entirely on the stroke and not what the balls do.

[@LeadingIndicator]

@@DrDaveBilliards Closing eyes is OK, but looking straight down is better because you can watch the line of the cue w/o bothering w/ anything on the table. What I do that almost nobody else does (except maybe Ronnie O'Sullivan) is eliminate practice strokes altogether ... and I average 15 seconds between shots. It's good for concentration and commitment. I aim as long as I need (with the eye, not the hand) and once I begin my backswing, I know I'm all in. Like a golf swing or a tennis shot, there is not time for practice - that's the discipline, anyway, and it's improved my shot making.

[@mustafaansarie]

i have a problem not sure if it has to do with elbow?
when i raise the butt of the cue few inches from the cusion the cue tip points left of cueball and if i lower or level it to the rail i put right hand side.
when its level after the delivery the cue tip goes to left and i miss my shots. but if i raise the butt of the cue that way i already am putting left side and i also miss the shots
what am i doing wrong?
tnx heaps

[@DrDaveBilliards]

This could be caused by many things, including your forearm not being vertical, your wrist turning, or your vision center not staying properly aligned. The videos and info here might help:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/technique/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/vision-center/

[@IndianHeathen1982]

What are your views on training aids for experienced players? I bought the "Balls" from Chris Henry for pool to ensure that I am hitting center (I am as I found out; found it easy.). I gave it to some beginners and they found it hard because they were not hitting center as they thought they would. MOFUDAT helped me a lot I guess. So, MOFUDAT or training aids?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm generally not a big fan of "training aids." I prefer working on fundamentals and learning from active drills that have good feedback like MOFUDAT. FYI, good techniques and drills for working on finding the center of the CB and stroking straight can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/finding-center-ball/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/drill/stroke/
Enjoy!

[@philipv.mcharris5010]

Hi Dr. Dave! Thank you for this video. I’ve found that focusing on locking the elbow and shoulder has stopped my elbow drop. I also had a quick question: in the resource page on elbow drop and in this video I know you mention that the hand usually comes up and the tip goes down with the follow through for a pendulum stroke and that can be one way of working to remove elbow drop. But with a high or middle tip position hit, my follow through does not go down toward the table and my hand doesn’t go up noticeably. Is that up / down motion less noticeable if someone strikes with the cue sliding across the chin? I use a chin guide and my tip goes down on draw shots but not on middle / high tip positions.
And does the cue usually travel more in a straight line with shorter strokes with a pendulum stroke regardless of chin guide? I noticed that the cue seems to be moving in a straight line with a number of shots that aren’t low tip shots in your run out videos.
Thanks Dr. Dave!!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The cue definitely travels straighter with shorter strokes, and the tip goes lower with draw shots due to the cue speed, cue elevation, and low starting tip position.

[@philipv.mcharris5010]

That makes sense! And if someone uses a chin guide, is the cue more likely to travel in a straight / straightish path?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@philipv.mcharris5010 Both a chin guide and chest guide can definitely help keep the cue motion straight, assuming your body and head are still during the shot.

[@reedleatherman8140]

Was wondering what are all the dots on your felt are for and how you set that all up? Looks interesting

[@DrDaveBilliards]

See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/training/teaching/

[@reedleatherman8140]

@@DrDaveBilliards awesome. Thank you!

[@klawiehr]

You may have addressed this before, but what stroke do you recommend for a tall person? I’m 6’2 and a novice player.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The “best practices” stroke advice applies to all players, regardless of height:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/technique/

[@djelalhassan7631]

Also the hand hitting the chest at the same place through the ball and stopping there consistently will stop the elbow drop. Elbow drop is a bad habit picked up while learning the game and the second cause might be the feeling of inadequacy to generate enough power without it. Peace

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Well stated.

[@johnwalding9457]

hey Jim i hope that this helps you out. Sincerely John Walding

[@Erkkremlinklum]

I do shoot straighter when I don’t drop the elbow but man it’s such a unsatisfying feeling to shoot that way

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Don’t you get satisfaction by seeing the balls go in the holes more frequently? I do.

[@Erkkremlinklum]

@@DrDaveBilliards can’t deny that but for me being a one pocket player I feel as if being as loose as possible a lot of wrist movement and elbow drop to get that extra squirt out of the cue ball with a lightest touch seems to be the best and for rotation the no elbow drop (Tyler styer) style is the best. What ya think?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@Erkkremlinklum Any technique can be mastered with enough practice. I do not think an elbow drop stroke is best for the reasons here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/elbow-drop/
Lots of good speed control advice (for any type of stroke) can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/speed/advice/

[@Erkkremlinklum]

@@DrDaveBilliards really appreciate it I’ll be sure to check it out 🤝

[@mosesng6050]

You know, sometimes it’s hard for me to tell whether I drop my elbow too quickly after hitting a cue ball.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That’s the main reason it is best to not drop it at all.

[@lazarkrcadinac1199]

Poštovani gospodine DIVe da li imate neko pomagalo u smislu CD-a ili knjiga. Pošto sam iz druge zemlje da li imate Cd sa prevodom ili knjigu i koja vam je cena pitam informativno pošto sam iz Srbije kako BiH vam plaćao pitam informativno ogroman pozdrav za vas i hvala. P.S. .U mome gradu a i glavnine nema ništa na tu temu pa sam vas pitao informativno hvala i puno sreće.😅😅.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Info for my book and all full-length instructional videos can be found here:
drdavebilliards.com/
They are available only in English.

I try not to drop my elbow except the need of extreme top spin - then it helps me somehow...

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It is better to just aim the tip higher and stroke straight with a still elbow.

[@kennywhite1325]

Does a closed bridge help keep the cue tip down if you drop your elbow? I noticed that in your examples you were using an open bridge. I know you were exaggerating for the sake of the video.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

A closed bridge won’t keep the tip down with elbow drop, but it will if you tighten your grip arm (which you shouldn’t do). An open bridge has many advantages per the video and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bridge/open/

[@gtrmusic69]

3:45 "Here ARE..."

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Good catch. Shameful! :)

[@zanethind]

Any tips to fix chicken wing elbow? I seem to not be able to fix it. The reason why it's chicken wing is because it's just so natural that I don't even notice it

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The best way to fix a "chicken wing" is to stop moving the shoulder and dropping the elbow. For advice on how to do this, see the "How can I get rid of elbow drop?" section here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/elbow-drop/

[@zanethind]

@@DrDaveBilliards thanks Dr Dave

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@zanethind You’re welcome. I aim to swerve. :)

[@PyroSabr959]

I feel like I have to tense my arm in order to keep the elbow still, it’s very infuriating

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It doesn't feel tense to me, but I am used to keeping it still. Like anything, it takes dedicated practice to create a "new normal."

[@Drewb187]

Take this like. Bad habit developed as a kid.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If you want to try to change, the techniques in the video might help. I used to be an elbow dropper too. I am much more consistent and accurate with a still elbow.

[@daytns]

I think elbow drop is a really bad habit, the only exception is if it’s controlled on a break

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Agreed.