I grew up Pentecostal and was taught to “seek for the baptism of the Holy Spirit” as evidenced by speaking in tongues. They did not believe you received the Holy Spirit until you spoke in tongues, so those that didn’t speak in tongues didn’t have that extra power. None of that teaching is biblical. I never did receive “the baptism of the Holy Spirit” even though I was seeking for it for years ☺️. Thankfully I now understand that all Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them. Thank the Lord for the solid biblical teaching I am now getting.
When I first was reborn I attended my husband's AOG church and the pastor att was a phenomenal scholar. But I disagreed with the churches doctrines that stated evidence of being baptized in H..S was speaking in tongues and women could be Pastors. I also disagreed with him on his belief that alcohol was always wrong for a Christian. He taught me a lot but when he retired a new pastor came in and the church pursues the Spirit and tries to ramp ppl up during worship like they're a Mosh Pit!
I'm 71 yrs and this subject has confounded me all my life. The last church I went to taught prayer language as a special gift. It created the haves and have not. Thank you for tackling this subject...it was very helpful!!
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is how the Holy Spirit is recieved. I have never read in scripture of a believer recieving the Holy Spirit at one point and being baptized in the Spirit later. There are only three instances in scripture to where we read of believers recieving the Holy Spirit and what happened when they recieved. In each instance, the first thing that happened is that they spoke in " tongues."( Acts ch.2,10,and ch.19). Look at Acts ch.10. After the gentiles recieved the Holy Spirit and spoke in " tongues" Peter turned to the six with him and said," Can any man forbid baptism for these who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we did"? Lastly, speaking in " tongues" is speaking in one spiritual language and is spiritual confirmation for us and those praying for us that we have recieved the Holy Spirit.
Very thankful for this conversation. I am a former Foursquare Pastor and recently our church (last year after 16 years) has become non-denominational. I spent a lot of time studying this subject and I knew that I couldn't reconcile the charismatic position on this subject. I desire unity but I also know that I led people into places of discouragement/spiritual abuse trying to conjure up a Holy Spirit secondary experience. Still being a continuest I am very thankful for the long road I've walked to be able to confidently stand where I am. Also very thankful for conversations like these that have been essential during my deep dives into these kinds of subject matters. Thanks Again!
Just this week I began re-reading the book of Acts to seek God's guidance on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and what it really means. After spending 25 years in Charismania, I knew that much of what I'd been taught was wrong and I left church in confusion and mistrust. I'm back in a solid, gospel preaching church now and feel born again, again. This video was timely for me. I plan to get JR Miller's book. His training and knowledge of the Word as a whole and in relation to this teaching rings with truth and the clouds of confusion are parting, at last. Thank you.
Thank you. I've been speaking about this for a long time. You just made it very clear. I'm very thankful for this episode. The church really needs this because the baptism of the Holy Spirit really is a divisive issue and something I've seen in 30 years of ministry. Again, thank you for addressing this and thank you Holy Spirit for giving each believer all the fullness they need at the moment of salvation. Lord, let us fuel that so that we can walk in it.
I recommend this Toward a Pentecostal Theology of Glossolalia Book by Randal H. Ackland. it's a historical and theological view of Spirit Baptism from multiple Pentecostal denominations. I think it's of great source to understand this doctrine from a pentecostal perspective.
I believe the scriptures make it clear for every generation. The Word of God has been written for all to understand. There is no need to try to figure it out by looking at the culture of that day. If the scriptures say the disciples received a second baptism…then they did. Period.
This doctrine has brought about some of the most eye-opening experiences in my life. The first I can remember is driving back from a Christian camp with another woman from a different church. I am a Southern Baptist, and she is from the Assemblies of God. At that time, I thought there was not much difference between us. But in our discussion, and she told me that she believed I was not saved because I had not received the secondary event of the baptism of the spirit and spoken in tongues. It was very disheartening. I truly believe this woman is saved. We ministered together. Yet she did not believe that I was saved.
Sorry but there are different Pentacostal churches. My AOG doesn't say a person isn't saved if they don't speak in tongues, maybe that was just her beliefs. I hang out with a Baptist and she believes in OSAS, that nobody can be saved after the Rapture, and her Pastor is always right and KJV only! So I find those beliefs wrong. I also don't believe in the Pentacostal stance of evidence of tongues being proof of baptism of the h.s.! I'm about to quit going to any Church!
I've heard a audible voice once .it scared me to the core .it was like someone was in the back seat of my truck and said my name LOUD. I didn't have a back seat .the rest of what I heard was a inner knowing but the holy spirit spoke my name and it terrified me .now I cherish the moment 😊
This was a very good and special conversation that I think the body of Christ should listen to! Thank you both for your services to the body of Christ 🙏🏾🙌🏾
Joyce God also speak to me too very Loud and very clear! Are you sure it was the voice of God cause this voice tell me that voice you heard is not off God.
@@maxmustermann1206 I have friend living in the middle of persecution and poverty in pakistan and afghanistan. Several of them have heard the voice of God as they can hear you talking. How do they know it was God ? Well, im not going to give you every testimony, but here is one: one of our sister in christ was in her home, and she heard a voice telling her to live immediately the house, and to never come back there, because talibans would be at her door in 5 minutes. She did not leave immediately, so 1 minute later the voice repeated the same thing. This time she did not hesitate anymore, and she RUN for her life. The voice gave her an adress to go to seek refuge. When she knock at the door of that house, it was the house of a christian couple who have an christian orphanage (we are in a muslim county.. remember). Several day ago, she learned that her house exploded because of talibans. The authority in God's voice, apparenty is so strong that you cannot doubt it is him. hope that it blesses you :)
I was raised as a Southern Baptist, believing those Pentecostal types were being led astray by demons. Now I'm 60 and belong to an AG church. I'm not completely on-board for everything, but my mind is open. I look forward to this conversation.
I plan to read the book. One thing I know is that in these last times we should not allow controversial issues to separate us. It is interesting that RA Torrey, DL Moody, AW Tozer, Andrew Murray, David Wilkerson, Dave Hunt, and Chuck Smith all believed the Bible taught a separate experience of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. My wife and I both experienced this as Baptists, and it changed our lives in our relationship with the Lord and our effectiveness in the Body of Christ. Let’s not loose unity over this, but work together. My current church does not teach this and I won’t let this affect my relationship with them.
@@psalm1197 Thank you. I will add Martin Lloyd Jones to my list. I really believe we should not break fellowship over this issue. I think it is important, but there are many Christians, including dear friends of mine who don't believe as I do. I have experienced this and it has changed my life and ministry. DL Moody was very disappointed that the ministers he worked with would not accept the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It's not a matter of salvation or should it define fellowship, but it does make a big difference in our effectiveness as Christians.
@@thomaszinter1350 I agree completely. You will notice by reading Joy Unspeakable, that MLJ began by not believing in this “ baptism of the Holy Spirit” and then had a deep change of heart.
I too am 71 years old. My case was tragic/great where a weakness is set upon one from birth unrelenting until at 18 years old the intolerable disconnect has to be addressed. I was not religious all through High School. But fasted for three days the last years but did not pray as the trite sort of prayers I knew of did not seem to fit the circumstance. After graduation i fell in with the hippies of Boulder, Colorado and walked off when an official LOVE-IN was scheduled. Not many yard out I felt the slightest touch in my heart. I was shocked to feel the love of God after 18 years of accepting that I was not worthy to be loved. Earning some money I struck out on my own again driving down to Los Angeles. I played bass guitar and wasted a month playing in four bands and recording sessions. New Years 1970 I quit all and walked out to the beach and sat their craving a healing. I learned how to pray with real intent when my car broke down in the middle of the desert in the dark of night. That was key to feel like you are actually making contact. After craving a healing for three weeks I was visited at prayer with the question put to me as to if I were willing to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ with full purpose of heart and at any hazard in this life? YES ....then again, the same question at a lower more earnest level of intent and purposefulness. YES! Then a third time down into the very depths of earnestness and a broken heart and contrite spirit. YES! I knew that was all I could do. I sat on the edge of my bed and was fully wrought upon by the power of the Father's baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It healed me great and put me out of the park from where I was raised. I had a prophecy that got fulfilled within a little more than a month. My intellect was super advance and my witness was basically rejected and even hated by my home people who thought I was lying or trying to become something I could not possible be. A lifetime of great works that rival Bible stories. You never know.
Regardless if your more of a Cessationist or Continuationist… it only takes basic discernment and doctrinal study to see that 90% of the things we see in the Charismatic movement are either exaggerated or straight up false, and they does not match what we see in Scripture.
Great discussion. I'm curious to see what you would believe or explain about the disciples being filled over and over again in the book of Acts. Surely, that's not them being saved again and again?
Alisa & Joe- I am just 22 minutes into your discussion and I'm loving it & learning so much! Pneumatology- didn't know that is what it is until today! Thank you! May God bless you and your ministries!
I spent many years in pentecostal churches where the belief is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by speaking in tongues, which was actually just unintelligible babbling. And if one did not speak in tongues he was not saved. I have since rejected this doctrine because I don't find it in the Scriptures.
I am Pentecostal. I also deny that speaking in tongues is evidence that you have the Holy Spirit. However, speaking in tongues is the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, and people still speak it today. The Bible never said that it stopped.
That sounds like a oneness pentecostal church, not a pentecostal church. Huge difference. Oneness pentecostalism is a cult that pentecostals condemned in 1916.
Sad, you did not study more about this topic that was the reason for the Charismatic Movement that started in late 60's in Catholic, Episcopal, and most major Protestant denominations. Read book, 9 O'Clock in the Morning , it changed my life when I understood dying to self and asked Holy Spirit to fill me totally!
I don't believe that it needs to be accompanied by speaking in tongues...because the scriptures do say that their is an encounter people have with the third person of the God head. People, spoke in different languages, prophesied, jumped up and down in enthusiastic praise. There definitely a encounter with God our Beloved. I felt like I was plugged into a light socket for 2 hours. My arms felt like they were on fire, I was crying and happy, and people looked dumbfounded at me because they couldn't comprehend the transformation that was talking place in that short time. But I didn't speak in different languages or prophesy, but yes there was power. Ruach Ha' Kodesh had come in power.
Great doctrinal discussion on biblical principles and truths. Unity in diversity is the heart of Christ for his body . Races, Cultural traditions, languages, are the fabric of humanity within God,s creation. Just as within the Christian Church there are many differing denominations that formed from moves of the Holy Spirit through the Church age starting from the first New Testament Church. My own experiences have shown me that from a young age I received the Holy Spirit as a young Catholic school student. Then in my late teens recommitted my life to Christ at a Pentecostal Church was Baptised in water and baptised in the Holy Spirit as this was promoted within this Church. This was very real and powerful in my Christian walk.The upper room baptism of the fire of The Holy Spirit was an annointing imparted to the disciples as planned by Jesus as the power of God in them to go forth and fulfil their ministries as Apostles. This is an impartation given to believers who walk in one or more of the fivefold ministry offices and callings.
I have been around people who claim that only if you have been baptised by the Holy Spirit you will "get" your "prayer language". It sounds like speaking in tongues but no interpreter is needed because it is just how you speak your prayers or when you speak prayers over someone. They claim you are either blocking the ability or you do not have the Holy Spirit in you if you can't do this. I disagreed & actually left the church I was going to because one of the elders was pushing this & also using declarative prayer where he was telling God what to do. Just couldn't buy into what they were saying so I found a church that fits my understanding of the Bible. Told an elder what I had problems with before I left but figured better for all if I just left because it was an internal conflict in me everytime I heard that & I didn't feel the peace I knew should be there when I went to that church.
Tongues are a manifestation (not a gift) of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit provides the words to your human spirit and you speak them by faith to God.
I find it interesting that so many people believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is divisive. The reality is that the Holy Spirit is the one who reconciles and not divides. I grew up in a Pentecostal (AG) background so the Baptism of the HS was always front and center. I came to a place where I realized the need to deconstruct all I had been taught in order to reconstruct in a healthy biblical way. That reconstruction of in depth bible study lead me to the belief that the Baptism of the HS is still very real, it is true and is still for the believer today. What I discovered in this reconstruction is not that the Baptism of the HS is divisive, it is mans discernment of whether someone has received the Baptism that is divisive. We have to remember that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not to show others 'how spiritual we are', but in fact they are for the edification of the church. The Baptism is an empowering to enable the church to do the work of the Kingdom.
Sister Alisa Childers. This is my take on that. We must Not base our theology on the experiences of cessationists or continuists but on the bible. Nowhere in the bible says that the gifts have ceased when the apostles died. The purpose of gifts is for the edification of the church. And the church is still here on earth and still needs to be edified. Of course the word of God and the Holy Spirit edifies us. But the bible also says that the one who speaks in unknown tongues as the Spirit leads is building himself up. The problem is this, The charismatics tend to based their theology on exoeriences., while the cessationist tend to based their theology also on unbiblical experiences of continuists also known us fake manifestation. But The bible says there are fake manifestation of gifts but there are also true biblical manifestations of gifts of the Spirit. Let the bible speak. The word of God is enough and profitable.
Actually you can see the gifts decrease if you read the new testament chronologically. Paul did not heal his friend Trophimus and told Timothy to take wine for his ailments. The gospel was spread so tounges was no longer necessary
I agree. We are to earnestly desire and pray for the gifts, including prophecy, healing, and tongues, to be given us as God wills. I think some gifts cease in certain places because there is a lack of seeking/understanding and/or an abundance of doubt or disobedience. We tend to think it must happen on our timeline and our way, or it’s not real or true and oh how that must grieve the Holy Spirit. Many of Isaiah’s prophecies took hundreds of years to be fulfilled. My father experienced miraculous tongues when he was a young man. He had a visit with an elderly Cree gentleman on the bus about Jesus. He would not have even known, except the younger Cree relative of the Elder had this crazy look of confusion on his face and explained at the bus stop. The old man was speaking Cree and my dad was speaking English. The old man didn’t understand English and my dad doesn’t understand Cree. They were each hearing their own language from the other person, but the younger Native fellow was hearing both languages. I experienced 3 miraculous healings in my life. In the womb, the Hand of God healed me. I was supposed to be deformed and broken in every way, including severe mental challenges, and not likely to even survive my own birth (never mind live long enough to conceive 5 children of my own). A whole day and a half, I was still and Mom thought I was dead. Then I kicked again just as they were getting packed up for the ER. God healed me and my dad could never find me in the nursery because the nurses had to show off the “little miracle peanut who doesn’t need an incubator” to everyone in the maternity ward. 4 pounds, 14 ounces at full term, I was. 20 years later, I tore up my knee and received healing prayers from some people. That was the last day I needed my knee brace. Between kids 2 and 3, I had a very aggressive, estrogen-eating, non-cancerous tumour in my pelvic region. The LORD provided me with amazing oncologists and surgeons at the Iowa City University hospital and used them to orchestrate my healing. He brought me to the States through marriage to my husband a few years before that, which probably saved my life. If I had still been in Canada, I’d probably be dead, lacking a uterus, or still waiting for the surgery.
Very informative episode! I went to a Assemblies of God church when my mother & brother & I started to go to church. There were still things about speaking in tounges that I didn’t fully understand. One thing I didn’t like was that my old home church at the time (I don’t know if it is in the denomination or what the church believed in) was that everyone had to be baptized in the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues & if someone didn’t then there was something wrong with his or her relationship with God. I was very scared for a moment I didn’t realize I overwhelmed myself to wanting to have that happen everyday though I already did spoke in tongues & now I realized I can’t force God’s prescience on me. I learned to keep seeking God’s presence & just him do the work & forcing it on me.
Thanks for the great episode. I have been struggling with this topic for a while now especially with the way my denomination approaches the topic. They basically believe that a "true Christian" is baptized with the Holy Spirit in a special moment where they experience great joy, peace and all the warm fuzzy feelings. The part that I struggle with the most is the part about us having to "seek" the Holy Spirit and make special prayers to receive the Holy Spirit. They even teach that you need to sacrifice for this by fasting, evangelizing or even giving a special offering ,basically we are taught the Holy Spirit is a reward for something you have done to prove yourself to God. I really struggle with this teaching since I don't see it in the bible.
I like Got Questions answer for "What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?" and "What is the filling of the Holy Spirit?" Indwelling and baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at salvation. Filling of the Holy Spirit happens as we submit ourselves to God's will, yielding to the Holy Spirit. Then we produce the Fruits of the Spirit and live out our faith.
I like the description of Acts 19 at the end. The various design patterns that are used in the Bible aren't really well known to the average Christian nowadays, which is a shame. Once you start looking into them you see the Bible in a whole different light and have so much more appreciation than you do already for it.
We only know in part. I believe God only reveals to us different parts of Him bc He wants us to practice patience with each other. If the Bible seems to suggest both, then it's both and neither has been fully revealed to us!
I am 73 years old. At 21 I first experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I had so many questions that I did not live in it for another 30 years. I use tongues (glossolalia) in a personal way in a small prayer group. I find it actually helps my prayers, to get over a hump of disbelief. In this prayer, I recognize this as a gift and not something that makes me "better than you." When people are invited into speaking in tongues, we have to realize that there is a hurdle here. The question is, when someone in the service starts speaking in tongues as part of their prayer, if you feel this is a barrier to you entering into prayer with them, then this is problematic for uniting with them in prayer. I have been on both sides. I find now that I express myself in tongues, it is with a desire to help others to enter into faith.
The orthodox, Calvinistic pastor/theologian Martyn Lloyd-Jones supports baptism of the Holy Spirit as something to be sought after by every Christian . That made me take a second look at this topic. But one needs spiritual discernment/Scripture knowledge/humility since there’s a lot of false spirits.
I became interested in the topic of cessationism/continuationism after dating a girl who was Pentecostal and claimed to speak in tongues. I would agree with Paul Washer and consider myself a "practical cessationist." I can't say that the sign gifts have ceased, but what passes for the sign gifts today doesn't line up with scripture. 1) Speaking in tongues is a real phonetic, human language (Acts chapter 2) 2) I've never seen speaking in tongues demonstrated Biblically. (1 Corinthians 14:27-28) 3) Speaking in tongues was a sign of judgement to unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22 )
Parents don't take advice from non parents and personally as a practicing continuationist, I probably won't take much advice about speaking in tongues from people who don't. Just throwing that out there as a POV.
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3 We want so much to systematize the activity of God. We have the scriptures to guide and instruct us but when we try to take our experiences and create doctrine from them, we always fall short.
Our church really emphasizes “baptism of the Holy Spirit”. They hold spirit nights, teach on prayer language, etc. They call it a “spirit-filled church or spirit-filled people” which definitely creates the “haves and have nots”. I started getting a question mark in my mind when fellow Believers (& our pastor) were telling me I just need to just open my mouth and begin making sounds. I need to start it an the Holy Spirit will take over. I just don’t think speaking in tongues is actually what it’s being made out to be here.
I had a similar experience in college. I was told to just pray and ask for this gift and then just start speaking whatever came out of my mouth. And yes, I guess the thinking was the spirit would take over. It never felt real and though I still kind of practiced it for years, it always felt fake. Finally I apologized to God if I was in error by quitting this practice but if it was real, he would need to really to fill me so it seemed real. And I repented for practicing something that I believed to be false. I don't not believe in speaking in tongues. I just don't believe we appropriate spiritual gifts, we receive them as God has purposed.
Very grateful as well. I've been meaning to look up teaching about these issues and this just popped up! I have a friend who talks all the time on FB about needing to have the baptism of the holy spirit, meaning a secondary experience, and that you are basically powerless without it and it's mandatory that Christians get this baptism. I just don't engage. But once he was promoting Kenneth Copeland and I couldn't hold my tongue. I tried to be polite.
I appreciate this view. I think it's hard to cover everything in one hour as well, so great job with what you had. This is an area of division unfortunately for some people who hold too tightly to passages out of context. There is so so so much more about Holy Spirit in the Bible than in the scripts mentioned here. Great discussion!
The united Pentecostal church used to teach that baptism of the Spirit was needed for salvation. Baptists used to think that Pentecostals were of the devil it is changing now where some baptists are becoming deliverance ministries that also believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I. Was saved by hearing an audible voice of God while living in central Texas serving in the Army in 1978
I came to Christ in a charismatic congregation in 1971. Of course they prayed for me to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit after I confessed Christ as my savior. But about 10 years later I began to question much of what they were teaching about tongues and the baptism among other things. I wonder what my pastor who was there that night would think about this video.
I speak in tongues every day, but I know that there are many people who do not speak in tongues who know the Lord better than I do. My very charismatic pastor says it this way: “tongues don’t make me better than you; they make me better than me.”
Not essential to be saved, yes, but I believe it's essential for Christian living, witness, and stewarding a deep and dynamic relationship with God. Would you enlist in the army and not be interested in using some of the most powerful weapons available? No. Why would you not want everything that God wants to give you? I'm sorry for all who have felt slighted by those with superiority, but God wants to offer all of his children the gifts and empowerment of the Holy Spirit. It is essential. It's needed now in these days we're living in more than ever. More than niceness and intellect and sweet bedtime prayers and good sermons and podcasts. We need power to demonstrate God's glory to the hardened hearts of unbelievers.
Very insightful and well explained, especially the Acts 8 and Acts 19 Holy Spirit baptism accounts. Interesting that when we see the baptism at Pentecost, it's done some time after the believers became disciples which is also the case when Jesus breathed the Spirit on them. Perhaps the timing of the baptism may occur at a later time for some believers which could be reflective of unique circumstances in God in a believer's Walk. Though, the Bible's pattern appears to reveal that the baptism should come soon after salvation. Perhaps it may not come upon some until they are water baptised or after, in apparent reflection of Acts 2:38 yet there is no water baptism in the Acts 10 Spirit account. Being that power to witness is endowed by the Spirit re Acts 1:8, it seems that it's a 'special presence' of Spirit-infilling/anointing that imbues the ability or power to witness which accompanies the Person of the Holy Spirit indwelling believers.
Power "to be" a witness. A witness is a person who has seen and/or heard or experienced something. The dunamis power of the Holy Spirit "makes us something" - it makes us a witness of the resurrected Jesus. Witnesses have a "testimony" as to what they have witnessed. What we call, "witnessing" we should actually call "testifying". We testify to what we have witnessed.
Acts 2:38-39 explicitly states repentance anf water baptism is for the forgiveness and infilling of the Holy Spirit, and this is a promise to all people. All the other prooftexts you give have nothing to do with us. Tell me, when did the Holy Spirit descend on Christ? Do we follow Christ or Cornelius?
In Acts 8, in context, it's very clear that there were at least 3 different things that happened to the Samaritans who believed, which were part of the overall process of salvation. First, they believed the gospel; they received the Word of God (therefore, they had become regenerated or born again), in the primary sense in which many Protestants use the term "saved", they were saved. Second, those that had believed were subsequently baptised in water, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, Scripture is then very specific that the Holy Spirit had not yet "fallen on" any of them; only later when the Apostles prayed for them, were they Baptised in The Holy Spirt, in that particular situation. Therefore, if we care to be intellectually honest with the text; then we could conclude that all 3 of these things happened to those Samaritan believers, and by, I believe, legitimate extrapolation, happened to every believer in the book of Acts, with the noted exception of Simon the former sorcerer (*although some of the believers in Acts, may have received those experiences in a different order, or almost simultaneously; although it seems, that believing resulting in regeneration, would of necessity, occur first).
@@1Corinthians6Verses9thru11 I think the bottom line is that modern-day believers either can't or don't want to believe in the Holy Spirit supernaturally manifesting Himself in and through believers in this present day. They have enough faith to believe that perhaps demons and evil spirits are real and can manifest themselves (e.g. the so-called "kundalini spirit" that every Pentecostal and Charismatic is accused of manifesting) but not the Holy Spirit of God. This is quite sad, really, since Moses desired that all the Lord's people would be prophets and that the Lord would pour out His Spirit upon all of them, and the prophet Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and that "sons and daughters" would prophesy, old men would dream dreams and young men would see visions. And the Apostle Peter stated on the Day of Pentecost that Joel's prophecy was beginning to be fulfilled that very day. However, Jesus had to deal with peoples' stubborn refusal to believe in His day, so it should be no surprise that we have to deal with it today. We are almost at the same place with the Church today that the Pharisees and Sadducees were at in the day of Jesus. No faith, but even worse, a stubborn refusal to believe. I also think part of it is spiritual laziness. We don't want to take the time or the effort to discern the spirits, so we try to eliminate all of them so we can get about what really interests us. We also don't want to learn ourselves or teach others how to hear and recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit when He speaks to us, and how to discern between His voice and every other spiritual voice that communicates with us. The result of this is leaving ourselves open to the demonic spirits while at the same time stopping our spiritual ears to the voice of the Holy Spirit. But this was prophesied as well in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared"
First time on this channel. I wholeheartedly agree with all you said about unity! So much so that I am hesitant to post this comment! I believe there is a Holy Spirit baptism, and that it is important, but I would not identify it as a “core essential doctrine.” How we believe on this point does not change who God is, how we are saved, or how much God loves and accepts us, so I agree with Mr. Miller’s basic answer to the question. However, my brother went a step beyond simply answering that question! He made it clear that he does not believe there is a Holy Spirit baptism, per se. He basically said; You can hold on to your experience and believe what you want regarding Holy Spirit baptism, but it is not really what you think it is. That is my summary of what he said, not a direct quote. His unconvincing answer to your Acts 8 and Acts 19 questions made his position perfectly clear. Since you agree with Joe Miller, I commend you for asking those pertinent questions! Some, perhaps many, Charismatic/Pentecostal congregations have departed from biblical guidelines. That sad situation does not change that fact that an experience separate in time from initial salvation, is recorded several places in the book of Acts. Dividing over this issue, in my opinion, would be sin. No, I am NOT implying that you folks are doing that! Only that the content of the video departed somewhat from the stated intention.
"When you separate yourself by belief, nationality or tradition, it breeds violence. So one who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, religion or political party, but is concerned with the total understanding of mankind." J.Krishnamurti
Alisa I appreciate you asking and exploring tough questions. I left RCC after 57 years and have been attending my husband's Pentacostal church for 2 years. I value the sermons of this pastor but can't agree that talking in tongues is evidence of baptism of the H. S. Also, their music is no longer hymns and psalms, but contemporary with some lyrics not even mentioning the Lord or Jesus. They don't have corporate prayer or creeds. I believe they used to but changed when they redecorated the sanctuary. My soul hurts and I wonder if I can accept any Church as they all seem to take a scripture and devise a whole denomination out of it!
Thank-you for your thoughtful interview. I really liked it. One of my fav scriptures on this is John 7:38,39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. One of the things we have to be cognizant of while we are delving into the question about all this is 1Cor 13:8, For now we see in a mirror, dimly, the mirrors back then were very crude brass, as smart as we are, and you 2 are very smart, we all still have this spiritual astigmatism, we all end up being myopic to one degree or another, so after all the differing narratives and nuances w/i them we will never accurately be able to totally see the big picture of what the bapt of the H.S. is and isn't. God seems to break all the boxes we put Him in. The sweet thing is that the love and grace of God is bigger than our differences, like God loves us and works w/ and w/in us in spite of our lack of perfection. Much of the historical context of this conversation is post azuza street revival. Some of those Azuza videos are still available to watch and honestly for me, I'm closest to Assembly of God, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable in those meetings. But God worked powerfully in spite of the messiness. I like things done properly as much as the next guy, but I was standing next to my wife when she was healed - it was legit, and it was a messy church. Some years ago I read "The Story of Christianity" in volume 2 it described the beginnings of some of the mainline denominations, it wasn't too hard to see that it was an outpouring of the H.S. combined with some serious continuous prayer was the power behind all those revivals. So here we are 2023 trying to put 2000+ years into biblical perspective. I like how God talks of the gifts in I Cor 12 and 14 and nicely sandwiched in between them in 13 He tells us to be nice to each other and if you are not nice you are nothing. God is smarter than you and He's certainly smarter than me. LOL Ok Ok I'll stop with this, just for fun pretend as best you can that you've don't know anything about Christianity and then read 1Cor 12:28 "God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 For hermeneutical context read all of 12, 13 and 14, These were Paul's/God's instructions to us how to do church. kinda scary isn't it.
Question. Why did the Samaritans need the Holy Spirit when they are believers already . The Jews accepted them after they received the same “ seal of the Holy Spirit “ and the accompanying manifestation
Just to be clear we’re not talking about the results of this ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ to be people quacking like ducks, barking like dogs, rolling in the aisles or swinging from the chandelier right? From my 35 years in the ‘charismatic movement’ there are many extremes! Give me a church that is grounded in biblical exegesis!
What is so frustrating is the baptism of the Holy Spirit; for me, if I am not or have not, does that mean I am not in Gods will as much as those who have been? If I am not laughing in the spirit, or I am not doing some super natural work, am I not going to be in His favor? Will my blessings not be as many as those who are baptized in the spirit?
John 2:22 When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. This happened before the Pentecost in Acts 2.The disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 2:22 and experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. You receive the Holy Spirit to be born again, you are baptised in the Holy Spirit to live out the born again life. It is a very personal thing. Some Christians may think that they don't need the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and are happy with it. However, you never experience what you never experience.
The disciples did receive the indwelling Holy Spirit before Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit came upon them for specific SERVICE for the building and edification of the Church. I don't think every believer is called to a specific service. Everyone is called unto good works, testifying of Christ, etc but I don't think everyone is called for a specific service. The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is for living the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit coming upon people is for service, where it is actually the Spirit doing the service through them. That's why the Spirit came upon them more than once. It was always when they were preaching boldly or performing miracles or being persecuted. Special times required special endowment of the Spirit. And, I believe the Holy Spirit came upon them at His own will, not at the will of man. "As the Spirit gave them utterance" applies to everything He does, not when we will. I think probably so man doesn't think he is the one doing the work and gets a big head. There will be no mistake when it is the Holy Spirit and not ourselves. Just my two cents.
You are either for Him or against Him, according to Scripture. There’s only 2 teams. There are no half-way Christians and no second class Christians. Saying some believers are anointed with “The Helper” Holy Spirit… and some are not … is not scriptural. If it was, then those living in constant sin, could simply say “it’s not fault, I haven’t been Baptized in Helper/Spirit yet”…
God's Spirit is within the heart and very being of us, His Children. Never understood the pastor's who call to the heavens "I want more of your Spirit Lord!". Huh? Whaat?
I wish you would have discussed tongues more. Like did you speak in tongues and now don't? There was a time that I was taught to seek tongues. They didn't come naturally so I made up syllables like I was told until a "prayer language" developed. I used this language for years but after leaving a church due to NAR, I began to question everything. So to this day, this language sometimes comes out of my mouth when praying or worshipping and I stop and tell God to show me if I should be speaking that. I haven't received a clear answer from Him yet. 🤔
David Pawson has several videos teaching on The Trinity, The Gifts of The Holy Spirit and much more. His unlocking The Bible videos and books are wonderful and enlightening. He said the word used for God in Genesis actually means 3 and other hints of the Trinity through the Old Testament. In The New Testament, the Trinity is used often for example... The love of God, the grace of The Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of The Holy Spirit.
Honest Q: modalism was contemporaneous with early trinitarianism. Why is it considered heresy instead of just heterodox? It affirms the absolute deity of Christ, oneness of God, humanity of Christ, etc…just restricts itself to only biblical equivalent terminology whereas trinitarianism allows for extra-biblical and (a step further) non biblical equivalent terminology. Thoughts?
Eph 1:13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth- the gospel of your salvation- you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory
(Acts 19:2) "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed" looks like there is a second baptism. Also that story about Smith Wigglesworth punching someone, and they died is not true. One thing I have noticed is that people who have excuses for being powerless put down those who, in the past, allegedly had power. We weren't there, we don't know for certain it is defamation. Best to not judge.
In reference to Acts-chapter 19:1-6. Paul has met a group of believers who have been baptized by John’s baptism following repentance through Jesus. These have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul goes on to tell them about being baptized, in the name ofJesus, and being filled with the Holy Ghost. After they are filled, they are speaking with tongues. All through the chapters of Acts and in I Corinthians it many times referenced that after people have been filled with the Holy Ghost they speak in tongues. I was a little confused about the man sharing his viewpoints. I always follow the word of God, not a doctrinal belief by man. We all should follow the word of God. These are some thoughts I thought I could share also in light of what he said. I have really enjoyed watching you on this podcast. I know you might have been led astray by charismatic circles that you were in. I also was involved in some charismatic churches, but also the Church of God and the Assembly of God. No matter what our experiences may have been whether good or bad the Bible still holds true. The Bible still references numerous times of the Holy Ghost indwelling people. And that is still as good today as it was then. Remember, in Acts where Peter says and this promise is to your children and your children’s children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call. That does away with the belief that it is gone and it does not manifest itself still today. Thank you so much and have a wonderful evening. 🙏
Was it the kind of situation where someone pronounces your name wrong and you don't correct it the first time, and then it becomes too awkward to say something as time goes on and you've had them on for multiple podcasts? 😅 I get it, I was Amanda rather than Annabel to one of my professors at college for 3 years, until my course mate decided to correct him at graduation haha
How can Spirit Baptism be a doctrine from 1901 after we just read from the book of Acts! What????? I've heard an audible voice while I was praying while doing laundry at home praying for my oldest child. It was a clear loud voice, I was so surprised and touched by it. The message was clear, grateful for the answer. I don't know if it was the voice of the Holy Spirit or an angel, but it was precious to me. I've had visions in prayer, received messages for others, and am privileged humbled that God would use me from time to time. At times, I cried out for it for answers and intimacy with God. I'm not crazy about the hyper charismatic movement, but like your guest said, don't quench the Spirit, and please don't ridicule it! I'm so so tired of the accusers of the brethren who are at least trying, bolder in following God, so tired of the religious critics, it so saddens me so much, but yes, I agree, language and how we use it is so important.
All Christians have their own personal testimonies. But we can't exposit personal experiences. Scripture says to test the spirits. We have to test them against the truth of Scripture.
@@psalm1197 The Holy Spirit is an "it". The angel Gabriel called it "the power of the Highest" in Luk. 1:35. The fact that Jhn 1:1 doesn't mention the Holy Spirit as a God ought to make any thinking person reconsider the credibility of the trinity doctrine. If the Holy Spirit is a God as trinitarians claim, that would make the Holy Spirit Christ's Father instead of the actual Father(Matt. 1:20).
@maxmustermann1206 are you sure about that. Isn't your salvation an experience? How about your baptism? What about when yiu spend time in the presence of God praying or worshiping? Is that not an experience ???
Is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit a Core Essential Doctrine? It depends what you mean. If the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is another description of the new birth then it is indeed a core doctrine. If you are referring to a "second blessing" or special anointing, this can be a divisive topic though one preacher, it might have been Moody, said, "I don't care what you call it, just get it!"
I grew up Pentecostal, and I am still Pentecostal, but there is such a misconception with people from the other side because we never have a discussion. I have been told my entire life that people who believe in the trinity worship 3 gods and worship 1... can you imagine my shock when I found out that wasn't true, lol. I'm sure that there are misconceptions you have about Pentecostals too, lol
Do you feel you received and accurate understanding of the Holy Spirit while attending ORU? I'm a Pentecostal, but would never attend a university associated with Robert's, Hagin, Copeland or Johnson. Their error in practice comes from a twisting of doctrine and theology.
Matthew 3:11 ”I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” John 1:32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
A Continuationist is better described as a Restorationist in my opinion . This is based on writings on people involved in the Azusa Street Revival. Then more recently Che Ann (New Apostolic Reformation). There are some well documented TH-cam presentations that cover this. I have a collection of material (videos/writings/books) of people that have “heard from God”. Often resulting in negative consequences or manipulating others. Then you look at the other religions and the Christian cults that have origin in subjective experiences and we now have a witches brew of theology and doctrine. Do you go to a doctor or a car mechanic that operates on inner impressions??
A great error among believers is that many key words in the new testament have a different meaning in the new testaments' original Greek than they do in our English trannslation. In scripture to where we must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved, the word for "in" or "on" in the original language is eis which means " into" For instance, in Pauls' conversation with the disciples outside of Ephesus in Acts ch.19 he tells them,"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people, that they should believe ( eis into) him which should come after him Christ Jesus". " On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus". The disciples believed by what they did not by what they mentally agreed with I would advise all readers to get a copy of Strongs Exhaustive Concordance Of The New Testament which makes tracing the original meaning of key words in the English version easy.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love [Matthew 5:44; John 13:34; John 15:12; Galatians 5:22], I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Also, Jesus was introduced in all four gospels as the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit. Only born-again children of God are baptized with or in the Holy Spirit. You must be born again before you can see or enter the kingdom. After you are born again you can receive the promise of the Father, the gift of the Holy Spirit. The apostles were born again on the day of Jesus' resurrection. On that day Jesus called them His brothers and called His God their God and His Father their Father. That is evidence that they were born again and in the new covenant. Fifty days later they were baptized in/with the Holy Spirit and clothed with power (dunamis) from heaven. Being clothed with power is different from being born again. It was the beginning of God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh and not just select individuals. Born again believers were baptized in the Holy Spirit, not unregenerated people.
Ummm....yes it is, since Jesus told the disciples to not leave until the were empowered from on high. Very different from the chapter in John, John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. The message in Luke is about waiting for the Holy Spirit, Ruach Ha' Kodesh, from on high. They weren't to leave Jerusalem until they had been empowered. Again very different then being baptized in water. Yes, Ephesians says one baptism, but you left out Hebrews 6 where the writer makes the point of saying that baptisms (plural) were an elementary doctrine. Something that every Christian should know about. Baptisms, not one. The sum of God's scripture is truth, not what some pull out of context. I love my brothers and sisters from every denomination who believe in Jesus and have repented of their sins. The Samaritans hadn't received the Holy Spirit, but yet they had been baptized...hmmm...same thing with Cornelius. He and his whole household, which was a lot of people, were filled with power from on high, before being baptized in water. Jesus didn't let the disciples go out on their own until He had given them authority and power, even though they had been baptized in water. He didn't let the 72 go out on their own either until He had given them authority and power. A huge difference between been baptized and identifying with His death, burial and resurrection and being circumcised in heart versus being filled with power. Jesus Himself did not due a miracle until He was baptized in water and then the Spirit came down on Him. He is our remodel in everything, our Lord and the one we imitate.
I would classify myself as a charismatic, but I don't agree with the second filling theology that is common. It was described to me as a goblet that you fill to the brim with liquid, but it does not overflow. That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit when you get saved. The second baptism of the Holy Spirit is like adding extra liquid to what is already there to make it overflow. That second gives dose is what gives access to speaking in tongues. I don't think that second dose is needed but instead the original liquid that was poured in is the source and everything signs and wonders related comes from that. The baptism at salvation shouldn't require another dose, if you will.
Hebrew 6:1-4 doctrine of baptisms. Not discussed. Sounds like a very generic definition. Playing it safe Jesus was pretty strong in His language about not leaving Jerusalem until. John 20 Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit. Did they? No Discussion here.
When an infant is baptized, he/she is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. As they grow, they have the need to seek to be always filled by the Holy Spirit so as to live a holy life. As for tongues, I have yet to encounter anyone who suddenly is able to speak a language, say French or Urdu, without having learned it. If that were to occur, it woukd have worth only if it could be understood by a speaker of that language. Anybody can produce sounds that mimic language to some extent. What I have heard as "tongues" is more akin to babbling the same repeated sounds.
The specific instances of speaking in tongues in the Bible are for communication. There is no reason for God to stop doing that. However, I think that in this time of distrust of miracles God is more likely to make Google translate accurate for a change. The kind of speaking in tongues you speak of, everyone babbling at one with no translation, is specifically prohibited in Corinthians. I paraphrase Paul: One at a time, and if no one translates, sit down and shut up. Paul also validates prayer in tongues by saying that it is not as good as praying in a language one understands.
I truly feel like I'm in grade school with this guy? First the Bible says those who are lead by the Spirit are the Sons of God! Then it says if you don't have the Spirit your not of Him? How can someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit walk United with someone who isn't? They cannot? The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ Spirit living in you! So I no longer am trying to save the world but Christ is ministering thru me? The Baptism is the full Born Again Experience and yes you will speak in tongues! Today we have so many speaking in tongues that are not of the Holy Spirit? The Bible says you will know them by there fruit 🍓 Love, Joy, Peace , Long-suffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith , Meekness, Self Control, And the gifts of the Holy Spirit come thru the Holy Spirit as Jesus sees fit to distribute them to His servant! I cannot cast a demon out without a Spirit Filled believer who is filled with the Holy Spirit who believes the same! How can someone explain as spiritual things to someone who does not have the fullness of the Spirit? I cannot! Just like John's the Baptist Disciples said we have not even heard of the Holy Ghost! Until Paul layed hands on them they did not have the Holy Spirit! Many deny Holy spirit today! The Holy Spirit teaches you and leads you after your Baptized in the Holy Ghost! You feel like a baby at what ever age you are when Baptized with the Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit teaches you how to walk in the Spirit! You feel every sin, scar, and your past leave when you are born again? As you read God's word more you will learn that the Holy Spirit opens up more understanding and is in agreement with the Word Of God! So much more? Speaking in tongues is God's prayer language praying they you! And it molds you to be more like Jesus? So whatever is done either casting demons out, healings, prophecy , decernment, whatever Gifts will be Jesus working thru you ministering to the world! All Glory and Honor must go to Jesus
Many years ago the late theologian Don Barnhouse did a talk on One Church. No, he wasn't talking about all of us uniting into one denomination. He talked about how it is about 5% of what you believe that I totally disagree with. That is true of all denominations. Five percent. And what do we as a body of Christ do? We concentrate on the 5% and don't work together. Sad
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the born-again / re-birth experience of salvation....with or without tongues & with or without water baptism. So, YES....it is Core Doctrne. B of HS is "the WASHING of rebirth & renewal by the Holy Spirit". Titus 3:4-7 "This baptism saves you..." 1 Peter 3:21 And we believers "have all been baptized by one and the same Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13
Paraphrasing: "You don't need the label Holy Spirit baptism." The label "Holy Spirit baptism" is not something made up by men. It was mentioned by the Lord ("remain in the city until you receive power from on high") as something the disciples/apostles would experience if they obeyed him and remained in Jerusalem. so not only was it a specific experience, it happened in a specific place. The experience here is NOT JUST in what they (the apostles) were able to do (speak in tongues, etc) but was also HOW it happened. How this "pouring out" happened was with visible tongues of fire from heaven and the audible sound of a rushing of wind. The next time it happens is with the encounter with Cornelius. Peter describes the experience in Acts 11 saying "the Holy Spirit came down on them in he same way as it came on us at the beginning." So we can presume that there were visible tongues of fire and an audible sound of winds in the home of Cornelius. This specific way that the Holy Spirit "came down" is never described or referenced again anywhere in Acts or in the NT. It's only these two instances. Peter's affirmation in Acts 11:16 "...you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit" is confirmation that a baptism in the Holy Spirit is an event just like the one we observe in Acts 2. We can address what happens after this baptism (the ability to perform miracles) later and also see that this event isn't necessary any longer as observed in Acts because conferring miracles is replaced from the Holy Spirit "coming down" on people with one of the elementary teachings - the "laying on of hands."
Great conversation. One issue I had is that the idea that the goal is to have nothing of ourselves left. I don't think that is a biblical idea. God made humankind so there would be each of us - having His nature, but distinct and different persons. It is our sinful nature that we want to be redeemed, sanctified, and ultimately (in heaven) gone. One of the recurring themes from people who died and experienced heaven was they were more themselves (more real) than on earth. How can we love others as we love ourselves if there is "nothing" of ourselves to love. I think it is actually harmful to tell people that we want ourselves to be nothing, like we have no value and that God doesn't really like us.
The unity longed for by your guest and so many of us will never be realized as long as "superior Christians" look down on Pentecostals as ignorant, unlearned people, going so far as to say that speaking in tongues is demonic. Seems to me that those are the people who cherish disunity over unity in the Body. But thats okay. If I remember correctly, God used a few "ignorant and unlearned men" to turn the world upside down for Christ! ❤
If your guided by the Holy Spirit completely you can’t be wrong. The problem with us humans is we’re in this fleshly bodie in a fallen world and are not in tune 24/7. If someone divides on doctrine only one can be right. We have no connection to God but through the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is our High Priest that we bring our petitions to through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our connection to God. Without the Holy Spirit we are spiritually dead
The idea that the old testament has the Holy Spirit coming upon people in a transitory way for a specific purpose and the new testament has the Holy Spirit transformatively indwelling everyone, isn't without problems, in that the Holy Spirit also came upon the New Testament church at Pentecost to anoint them with Spiritual Gifts for the work of ministry, particularly tongues in that specific case (not all cases, and tongues is not the only gift of the Spirit, nor the most important one) and the problem with the Holy Spirit being transformative only in the New Testament is that it denies and/or fails to account for Ezekiel 36:26-27 which says that God will give His people a new heart and a new Spirit, He will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, He will put HIS Spirit in them and cause them to obey His statutes, to keep His judgments and do them, and also denies and/or fails to take into account Psalm 51:10-13 where David prays for God to create in him a clean heart, to renew a right Spirit within him, to uphold Him by God's generous Spirit, to not restore to Him the joy of salvation and to not take the Holy Spirit from him, so that he can teach transgressors God's ways, and that sinners can be converted to God (being converted is not something that was invented in the New Testament, it was known in the time when Psalm 51 was written). A dispensational pneumatology has the Old Testament believers legitimately depending on themselves for righteousness because they do not have access to the righteousness of God in order to submit thereto, because the transformation of the Holy Spirit is not available, leaving them only with their own righteousness to depend on, but Hebrews 4:2 says that the Gospel was also preached to those in the old testament, but it did not benefit them because of their unbelief.
The only gift that we are promised is the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit Himself. We are instructed to ask the Father for this gift. All the other things we call "gifts" are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit expressing His Person and His power through us.
Acts 8 and Samaritans - The apostles had to come to Samaria to verify the account and ALSO to lay hands on the new believers and confer the ability to perform miracles (further equip them for ministry) precisely because Phillip did not have the ability to lay hands on them and confer the gift of miraculous works himself. Although Phillip could perform miracles (after the apostles laid hands on him in Acts 6) apparently he could not confer that ability onto others or else he would have. That's why the apostles came. Yes the Samaritan believers were saved by Phillip, his message of repentance, and baptizing them with water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. They were faithful believers who could not speak in tongues, prophecy, or heal until the apostles came and laid hands on them. 2 separate manifestations of the Holy Spirit - the indwelling and the outpouring. Indwelling confers salvation (at initial repentance and water baptism). Outpouring confers miraculous works (at either baptism of the Holy Spirit from "on high" aka straight from heaven OR via laying on at the apostles hands as Acts 8 clearly states).
When Jesus breathed upon the disciples telling them to “Recieve the Holy Spirit”… he was ONLY looking fwd to the time of Pentecost in which he promised “you will recieve” the Holy Spirit. If, this single statement upon breathing on his disciples, as many wrongly interpret, is the disciples ACTUALLY RECIEVING the Holy Spirit then something is wrong here…for the apostles mark their born again cleansing as their baptism with the Holy Spirit in defending the faith, repentance unto eternal life, and also reception of the Holy Spirit of gentiles as like unto their own SALVATION at Pentecost clearly for all to read in Acts 10,11, & 15. Additionally, when Jesus is resurrrcted…he is yet STILL WITH THEM. So, the Advocate (Holy Spirit) would neither have indwelt nor baptized any of them per Jesus earlier testimony of the Spirits arrival. (Jn 16:7)
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I grew up Pentecostal and was taught to “seek for the baptism of the Holy Spirit” as evidenced by speaking in tongues. They did not believe you received the Holy Spirit until you spoke in tongues, so those that didn’t speak in tongues didn’t have that extra power. None of that teaching is biblical. I never did receive “the baptism of the Holy Spirit” even though I was seeking for it for years ☺️. Thankfully I now understand that all Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them. Thank the Lord for the solid biblical teaching I am now getting.
When I first was reborn I attended my husband's AOG church and the pastor att was a phenomenal scholar. But I disagreed with the churches doctrines that stated evidence of being baptized in H..S was speaking in tongues and women could be Pastors. I also disagreed with him on his belief that alcohol was always wrong for a Christian. He taught me a lot but when he retired a new pastor came in and the church pursues the Spirit and tries to ramp ppl up during worship like they're a Mosh Pit!
I'm 71 yrs and this subject has confounded me all my life. The last church I went to taught prayer language as a special gift. It created the haves and have not. Thank you for tackling this subject...it was very helpful!!
Yes you are a have not
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is how the Holy Spirit is recieved. I have never read in scripture of a believer recieving the Holy Spirit at one point and being baptized in the Spirit later.
There are only three instances in scripture to where we read of believers recieving the Holy Spirit and what happened when they recieved. In each instance, the first thing that happened is that they spoke in " tongues."( Acts ch.2,10,and ch.19).
Look at Acts ch.10. After the gentiles recieved the Holy Spirit and spoke in " tongues" Peter turned to the six with him and said," Can any man forbid baptism for these who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we did"?
Lastly, speaking in " tongues" is speaking in one spiritual language and is spiritual confirmation for us and those praying for us that we have recieved the Holy Spirit.
@@matthewashman1406Is that how the Lord would have us speak in love to the seeker brother ?
Very thankful for this conversation. I am a former Foursquare Pastor and recently our church (last year after 16 years) has become non-denominational. I spent a lot of time studying this subject and I knew that I couldn't reconcile the charismatic position on this subject. I desire unity but I also know that I led people into places of discouragement/spiritual abuse trying to conjure up a Holy Spirit secondary experience. Still being a continuest I am very thankful for the long road I've walked to be able to confidently stand where I am. Also very thankful for conversations like these that have been essential during my deep dives into these kinds of subject matters. Thanks Again!
Any suggestions on how to do my own deep dive?
Read Strange Fire.
Just this week I began re-reading the book of Acts to seek God's guidance on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and what it really means. After spending 25 years in Charismania, I knew that much of what I'd been taught was wrong and I left church in confusion and mistrust. I'm back in a solid, gospel preaching church now and feel born again, again. This video was timely for me. I plan to get JR Miller's book. His training and knowledge of the Word as a whole and in relation to this teaching rings with truth and the clouds of confusion are parting, at last. Thank you.
God’s timing is perfect. Blessings
What church do you attend?
Thank you. I've been speaking about this for a long time. You just made it very clear. I'm very thankful for this episode. The church really needs this because the baptism of the Holy Spirit really is a divisive issue and something I've seen in 30 years of ministry. Again, thank you for addressing this and thank you Holy Spirit for giving each believer all the fullness they need at the moment of salvation. Lord, let us fuel that so that we can walk in it.
Thanks for listening and the note of encouragement.
I recommend this Toward a Pentecostal Theology of Glossolalia Book by Randal H. Ackland. it's a historical and theological view of Spirit Baptism from multiple Pentecostal denominations. I think it's of great source to understand this doctrine from a pentecostal perspective.
An interesting and encouraging discussion between Alisa and JR Miller. The Holy Spirit at work.
I am 70 years old and I have battled with that doctrine all of my life.
That was a great, thought provoking conversation. I absolutely love his explanation. Clear and concise. Thanks guys. God is good
Thanks for listening and the note of encouragement.
I believe the scriptures make it clear for every generation. The Word of God has been written for all to understand. There is no need to try to figure it out by looking at the culture of that day. If the scriptures say the disciples received a second baptism…then they did. Period.
I heard the auditable voice twice. Once you've heard it, no other voice will satisfy you.. 💛
Thank you. Amazing video! God bless you.
This doctrine has brought about some of the most eye-opening experiences in my life. The first I can remember is driving back from a Christian camp with another woman from a different church. I am a Southern Baptist, and she is from the Assemblies of God. At that time, I thought there was not much difference between us. But in our discussion, and she told me that she believed I was not saved because I had not received the secondary event of the baptism of the spirit and spoken in tongues. It was very disheartening. I truly believe this woman is saved. We ministered together. Yet she did not believe that I was saved.
Sorry but there are different Pentacostal churches. My AOG doesn't say a person isn't saved if they don't speak in tongues, maybe that was just her beliefs. I hang out with a Baptist and she believes in OSAS, that nobody can be saved after the Rapture, and her Pastor is always right and KJV only! So I find those beliefs wrong. I also don't believe in the Pentacostal stance of evidence of tongues being proof of baptism of the h.s.! I'm about to quit going to any Church!
I've heard a audible voice once .it scared me to the core .it was like someone was in the back seat of my truck and said my name LOUD. I didn't have a back seat .the rest of what I heard was a inner knowing but the holy spirit spoke my name and it terrified me .now I cherish the moment 😊
This was a very good and special conversation that I think the body of Christ should listen to! Thank you both for your services to the body of Christ 🙏🏾🙌🏾
Thanks for listening and the note of encouragement.
@@jrmiller777 you’re welcome man🙏🏾
I did hear God speak to me in an audible voice about thirty-five years ago it changed my whole life❤❤
How did you know it was God?
What part/side of the, head? did you hear it?
Joyce God also speak to me too very Loud and very clear! Are you sure it was the voice of God cause this voice tell me that voice you heard is not off God.
@@maxmustermann1206 I have friend living in the middle of persecution and poverty in pakistan and afghanistan. Several of them have heard the voice of God as they can hear you talking. How do they know it was God ? Well, im not going to give you every testimony, but here is one: one of our sister in christ was in her home, and she heard a voice telling her to live immediately the house, and to never come back there, because talibans would be at her door in 5 minutes.
She did not leave immediately, so 1 minute later the voice repeated the same thing. This time she did not hesitate anymore, and she RUN for her life. The voice gave her an adress to go to seek refuge. When she knock at the door of that house, it was the house of a christian couple who have an christian orphanage (we are in a muslim county.. remember). Several day ago, she learned that her house exploded because of talibans.
The authority in God's voice, apparenty is so strong that you cannot doubt it is him. hope that it blesses you :)
@@sorrowinchrist3387God wouldn't tell you that.
I was raised as a Southern Baptist, believing those Pentecostal types were being led astray by demons. Now I'm 60 and belong to an AG church. I'm not completely on-board for everything, but my mind is open. I look forward to this conversation.
I plan to read the book. One thing I know is that in these last times we should not allow controversial issues to separate us. It is interesting that RA Torrey, DL Moody, AW Tozer, Andrew Murray, David Wilkerson, Dave Hunt, and Chuck Smith all believed the Bible taught a separate experience of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. My wife and I both experienced this as Baptists, and it changed our lives in our relationship with the Lord and our effectiveness in the Body of Christ. Let’s not loose unity over this, but work together. My current church does not teach this and I won’t let this affect my relationship with them.
You forgot to mention Martin Lloyd Jones (Joy Unspeakable)
@@psalm1197 Thank you. I will add Martin Lloyd Jones to my list. I really believe we should not break fellowship over this issue. I think it is important, but there are many Christians, including dear friends of mine who don't believe as I do. I have experienced this and it has changed my life and ministry. DL Moody was very disappointed that the ministers he worked with would not accept the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It's not a matter of salvation or should it define fellowship, but it does make a big difference in our effectiveness as Christians.
@@thomaszinter1350 I agree completely. You will notice by reading Joy Unspeakable, that MLJ began by not believing in this “ baptism of the Holy Spirit” and then had a deep change of heart.
I too am 71 years old. My case was tragic/great where a weakness is set upon one from birth unrelenting until at 18 years old the intolerable disconnect has to be addressed. I was not religious all through High School. But fasted for three days the last years but did not pray as the trite sort of prayers I knew of did not seem to fit the circumstance. After graduation i fell in with the hippies of Boulder, Colorado and walked off when an official LOVE-IN was scheduled. Not many yard out I felt the slightest touch in my heart. I was shocked to feel the love of God after 18 years of accepting that I was not worthy to be loved.
Earning some money I struck out on my own again driving down to Los Angeles. I played bass guitar and wasted a month playing in four bands and recording sessions. New Years 1970 I quit all and walked out to the beach and sat their craving a healing. I learned how to pray with real intent when my car broke down in the middle of the desert in the dark of night. That was key to feel like you are actually making contact.
After craving a healing for three weeks I was visited at prayer with the question put to me as to if I were willing to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ with full purpose of heart and at any hazard in this life? YES ....then again, the same question at a lower more earnest level of intent and purposefulness. YES! Then a third time down into the very depths of earnestness and a broken heart and contrite spirit. YES! I knew that was all I could do. I sat on the edge of my bed and was fully wrought upon by the power of the Father's baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It healed me great and put me out of the park from where I was raised. I had a prophecy that got fulfilled within a little more than a month. My intellect was super advance and my witness was basically rejected and even hated by my home people who thought I was lying or trying to become something I could not possible be.
A lifetime of great works that rival Bible stories. You never know.
Thank you for such an insightful and balanced approach to this divisive topic!
Regardless if your more of a Cessationist or Continuationist… it only takes basic discernment and doctrinal study to see that 90% of the things we see in the Charismatic movement are either exaggerated or straight up false, and they does not match what we see in Scripture.
Great discussion. I'm curious to see what you would believe or explain about the disciples being filled over and over again in the book of Acts. Surely, that's not them being saved again and again?
Alisa & Joe- I am just 22 minutes into your discussion and I'm loving it & learning so much! Pneumatology- didn't know that is what it is until today! Thank you! May God bless you and your ministries!
I spent many years in pentecostal churches where the belief is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by speaking in tongues, which was actually just unintelligible babbling. And if one did not speak in tongues he was not saved. I have since rejected this doctrine because I don't find it in the Scriptures.
I am Pentecostal. I also deny that speaking in tongues is evidence that you have the Holy Spirit. However, speaking in tongues is the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, and people still speak it today. The Bible never said that it stopped.
That sounds like a oneness pentecostal church, not a pentecostal church. Huge difference. Oneness pentecostalism is a cult that pentecostals condemned in 1916.
Sad, you did not study more about this topic that was the reason for the Charismatic Movement that started in late 60's in Catholic, Episcopal, and most major Protestant denominations. Read book, 9 O'Clock in the Morning , it changed my life when I understood dying to self and asked Holy Spirit to fill me totally!
I don't believe that it needs to be accompanied by speaking in tongues...because the scriptures do say that their is an encounter people have with the third person of the God head. People, spoke in different languages, prophesied, jumped up and down in enthusiastic praise. There definitely a encounter with God our Beloved. I felt like I was plugged into a light socket for 2 hours. My arms felt like they were on fire, I was crying and happy, and people looked dumbfounded at me because they couldn't comprehend the transformation that was talking place in that short time. But I didn't speak in different languages or prophesy, but yes there was power. Ruach Ha' Kodesh had come in power.
@Meisha Exactly.
Great doctrinal discussion on biblical principles and truths. Unity in diversity is the heart of Christ for his body . Races, Cultural traditions, languages, are the fabric of humanity within God,s creation. Just as within the Christian Church there are many differing denominations that formed from moves of the Holy Spirit through the Church age starting from the first New Testament Church. My own experiences have shown me that from a young age I received the Holy Spirit as a young Catholic school student. Then in my late teens recommitted my life to Christ at a Pentecostal Church was Baptised in water and baptised in the Holy Spirit as this was promoted within this Church. This was very real and powerful in my Christian walk.The upper room baptism of the fire of The Holy Spirit was an annointing imparted to the disciples as planned by Jesus as the power of God in them to go forth and fulfil their ministries as Apostles. This is an impartation given to believers who walk in one or more of the fivefold ministry offices and callings.
Thank you for this conversation! Truly helpful and timely! 💞🙏🏻
I have been around people who claim that only if you have been baptised by the Holy Spirit you will "get" your "prayer language". It sounds like speaking in tongues but no interpreter is needed because it is just how you speak your prayers or when you speak prayers over someone. They claim you are either blocking the ability or you do not have the Holy Spirit in you if you can't do this. I disagreed & actually left the church I was going to because one of the elders was pushing this & also using declarative prayer where he was telling God what to do. Just couldn't buy into what they were saying so I found a church that fits my understanding of the Bible. Told an elder what I had problems with before I left but figured better for all if I just left because it was an internal conflict in me everytime I heard that & I didn't feel the peace I knew should be there when I went to that church.
Good choice. I don't recall Jesus speaking in tongues, he too must not have the holy spirit 😅
Tongues are a manifestation (not a gift) of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit provides the words to your human spirit and you speak them by faith to God.
discernment is a great thing 😊
I find it interesting that so many people believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is divisive. The reality is that the Holy Spirit is the one who reconciles and not divides. I grew up in a Pentecostal (AG) background so the Baptism of the HS was always front and center. I came to a place where I realized the need to deconstruct all I had been taught in order to reconstruct in a healthy biblical way. That reconstruction of in depth bible study lead me to the belief that the Baptism of the HS is still very real, it is true and is still for the believer today. What I discovered in this reconstruction is not that the Baptism of the HS is divisive, it is mans discernment of whether someone has received the Baptism that is divisive. We have to remember that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not to show others 'how spiritual we are', but in fact they are for the edification of the church. The Baptism is an empowering to enable the church to do the work of the Kingdom.
Sister Alisa Childers. This is my take on that. We must Not base our theology on the experiences of cessationists or continuists but on the bible. Nowhere in the bible says that the gifts have ceased when the apostles died. The purpose of gifts is for the edification of the church. And the church is still here on earth and still needs to be edified. Of course the word of God and the Holy Spirit edifies us. But the bible also says that the one who speaks in unknown tongues as the Spirit leads is building himself up. The problem is this, The charismatics tend to based their theology on exoeriences., while the cessationist tend to based their theology also on unbiblical experiences of continuists also known us fake manifestation. But The bible says there are fake manifestation of gifts but there are also true biblical manifestations of gifts of the Spirit. Let the bible speak. The word of God is enough and profitable.
Well said! Greetings from Germany
Actually you can see the gifts decrease if you read the new testament chronologically.
Paul did not heal his friend Trophimus and told Timothy to take wine for his ailments.
The gospel was spread so tounges was no longer necessary
The gift of tounges was languages everywhere in the Greek not babble. Period
I agree. We are to earnestly desire and pray for the gifts, including prophecy, healing, and tongues, to be given us as God wills. I think some gifts cease in certain places because there is a lack of seeking/understanding and/or an abundance of doubt or disobedience. We tend to think it must happen on our timeline and our way, or it’s not real or true and oh how that must grieve the Holy Spirit. Many of Isaiah’s prophecies took hundreds of years to be fulfilled. My father experienced miraculous tongues when he was a young man. He had a visit with an elderly Cree gentleman on the bus about Jesus. He would not have even known, except the younger Cree relative of the Elder had this crazy look of confusion on his face and explained at the bus stop. The old man was speaking Cree and my dad was speaking English. The old man didn’t understand English and my dad doesn’t understand Cree. They were each hearing their own language from the other person, but the younger Native fellow was hearing both languages. I experienced 3 miraculous healings in my life. In the womb, the Hand of God healed me. I was supposed to be deformed and broken in every way, including severe mental challenges, and not likely to even survive my own birth (never mind live long enough to conceive 5 children of my own). A whole day and a half, I was still and Mom thought I was dead. Then I kicked again just as they were getting packed up for the ER. God healed me and my dad could never find me in the nursery because the nurses had to show off the “little miracle peanut who doesn’t need an incubator” to everyone in the maternity ward. 4 pounds, 14 ounces at full term, I was. 20 years later, I tore up my knee and received healing prayers from some people. That was the last day I needed my knee brace. Between kids 2 and 3, I had a very aggressive, estrogen-eating, non-cancerous tumour in my pelvic region. The LORD provided me with amazing oncologists and surgeons at the Iowa City University hospital and used them to orchestrate my healing. He brought me to the States through marriage to my husband a few years before that, which probably saved my life. If I had still been in Canada, I’d probably be dead, lacking a uterus, or still waiting for the surgery.
Very informative episode! I went to a Assemblies of God church when my mother & brother & I started to go to church. There were still things about speaking in tounges that I didn’t fully understand. One thing I didn’t like was that my old home church at the time (I don’t know if it is in the denomination or what the church believed in) was that everyone had to be baptized in the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues & if someone didn’t then there was something wrong with his or her relationship with God. I was very scared for a moment I didn’t realize I overwhelmed myself to wanting to have that happen everyday though I already did spoke in tongues & now I realized I can’t force God’s prescience on me. I learned to keep seeking God’s presence & just him do the work & forcing it on me.
A very helpful and balanced discussion.
Thank you!
Just bought Dr. Miller's book.
Great. Keep in touch and let me know what you think.
I really enjoyed this conversation! This has brought helpful clarity to my mind about this topic. Thank you!
Thank you. Learning a lot from this content. Blessings from South Australia 🇦🇺.
Thanks for the great episode. I have been struggling with this topic for a while now especially with the way my denomination approaches the topic. They basically believe that a "true Christian" is baptized with the Holy Spirit in a special moment where they experience great joy, peace and all the warm fuzzy feelings. The part that I struggle with the most is the part about us having to "seek" the Holy Spirit and make special prayers to receive the Holy Spirit. They even teach that you need to sacrifice for this by fasting, evangelizing or even giving a special offering ,basically we are taught the Holy Spirit is a reward for something you have done to prove yourself to God. I really struggle with this teaching since I don't see it in the bible.
I like Got Questions answer for "What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?" and "What is the filling of the Holy Spirit?" Indwelling and baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at salvation. Filling of the Holy Spirit happens as we submit ourselves to God's will, yielding to the Holy Spirit. Then we produce the Fruits of the Spirit and live out our faith.
I like the description of Acts 19 at the end. The various design patterns that are used in the Bible aren't really well known to the average Christian nowadays, which is a shame. Once you start looking into them you see the Bible in a whole different light and have so much more appreciation than you do already for it.
We only know in part. I believe God only reveals to us different parts of Him bc He wants us to practice patience with each other. If the Bible seems to suggest both, then it's both and neither has been fully revealed to us!
I am 73 years old. At 21 I first experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I had so many questions that I did not live in it for another 30 years. I use tongues (glossolalia) in a personal way in a small prayer group. I find it actually helps my prayers, to get over a hump of disbelief. In this prayer, I recognize this as a gift and not something that makes me "better than you." When people are invited into speaking in tongues, we have to realize that there is a hurdle here. The question is, when someone in the service starts speaking in tongues as part of their prayer, if you feel this is a barrier to you entering into prayer with them, then this is problematic for uniting with them in prayer. I have been on both sides. I find now that I express myself in tongues, it is with a desire to help others to enter into faith.
The orthodox, Calvinistic pastor/theologian Martyn Lloyd-Jones supports baptism of the Holy Spirit as something to be sought after by every Christian . That made me take a second look at this topic. But one needs spiritual discernment/Scripture knowledge/humility since there’s a lot of false spirits.
I’ve just read this book by MLJ….Joy Unspeakable
@@psalm1197 Yes! I’m impressed you know it ☺️. I had one of our elders read it because our church is Reformed Presbyterian.
I became interested in the topic of cessationism/continuationism after dating a girl who was Pentecostal and claimed to speak in tongues. I would agree with Paul Washer and consider myself a "practical cessationist." I can't say that the sign gifts have ceased, but what passes for the sign gifts today doesn't line up with scripture.
1) Speaking in tongues is a real phonetic, human language (Acts chapter 2)
2) I've never seen speaking in tongues demonstrated Biblically. (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)
3) Speaking in tongues was a sign of judgement to unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22 )
Parents don't take advice from non parents and personally as a practicing continuationist, I probably won't take much advice about speaking in tongues from people who don't. Just throwing that out there as a POV.
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3 We want so much to systematize the activity of God. We have the scriptures to guide and instruct us but when we try to take our experiences and create doctrine from them, we always fall short.
And some form a doctrine from LACK of experience. (Such as those who say experience, emotion, miracles, etc are not from the Holy Spirit.)
Our church really emphasizes “baptism of the Holy Spirit”. They hold spirit nights, teach on prayer language, etc. They call it a “spirit-filled church or spirit-filled people” which definitely creates the “haves and have nots”. I started getting a question mark in my mind when fellow Believers (& our pastor) were telling me I just need to just open my mouth and begin making sounds. I need to start it an the Holy Spirit will take over. I just don’t think speaking in tongues is actually what it’s being made out to be here.
I had a similar experience in college. I was told to just pray and ask for this gift and then just start speaking whatever came out of my mouth. And yes, I guess the thinking was the spirit would take over. It never felt real and though I still kind of practiced it for years, it always felt fake. Finally I apologized to God if I was in error by quitting this practice but if it was real, he would need to really to fill me so it seemed real. And I repented for practicing something that I believed to be false. I don't not believe in speaking in tongues. I just don't believe we appropriate spiritual gifts, we receive them as God has purposed.
Very grateful as well. I've been meaning to look up teaching about these issues and this just popped up!
I have a friend who talks all the time on FB about needing to have the baptism of the holy spirit, meaning a secondary experience, and that you are basically powerless without it and it's mandatory that Christians get this baptism. I just don't engage. But once he was promoting Kenneth Copeland and I couldn't hold my tongue. I tried to be polite.
I appreciate this view. I think it's hard to cover everything in one hour as well, so great job with what you had.
This is an area of division unfortunately for some people who hold too tightly to passages out of context.
There is so so so much more about Holy Spirit in the Bible than in the scripts mentioned here.
Great discussion!
The united Pentecostal church used to teach that baptism of the Spirit was needed for salvation. Baptists used to think that Pentecostals were of the devil it is changing now where some baptists are becoming deliverance ministries that also believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I. Was saved by hearing an audible voice of God while living in central Texas serving in the Army in 1978
UPC also teach against the Trinity which is huge no no
I came to Christ in a charismatic congregation in 1971. Of course they prayed for me to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit after I confessed Christ as my savior. But about 10 years later I began to question much of what they were teaching about tongues and the baptism among other things. I wonder what my pastor who was there that night would think about this video.
Love this!!🧡
Beautiful!! 😍
I speak in tongues every day, but I know that there are many people who do not speak in tongues who know the Lord better than I do. My very charismatic pastor says it this way: “tongues don’t make me better than you; they make me better than me.”
Not essential to be saved, yes, but I believe it's essential for Christian living, witness, and stewarding a deep and dynamic relationship with God. Would you enlist in the army and not be interested in using some of the most powerful weapons available? No. Why would you not want everything that God wants to give you? I'm sorry for all who have felt slighted by those with superiority, but God wants to offer all of his children the gifts and empowerment of the Holy Spirit. It is essential. It's needed now in these days we're living in more than ever. More than niceness and intellect and sweet bedtime prayers and good sermons and podcasts. We need power to demonstrate God's glory to the hardened hearts of unbelievers.
The Gospel is the power of God for Salvation. You don't need to have some extra powers. Share the Gospel and watch the Holy Spirit work!
Very insightful and well explained, especially the Acts 8 and Acts 19 Holy Spirit baptism accounts. Interesting that when we see the baptism at Pentecost, it's done some time after the believers became disciples which is also the case when Jesus breathed the Spirit on them. Perhaps the timing of the baptism may occur at a later time for some believers which could be reflective of unique circumstances in God in a believer's Walk. Though, the Bible's pattern appears to reveal that the baptism should come soon after salvation. Perhaps it may not come upon some until they are water baptised or after, in apparent reflection of Acts 2:38 yet there is no water baptism in the Acts 10 Spirit account. Being that power to witness is endowed by the Spirit re Acts 1:8, it seems that it's a 'special presence' of Spirit-infilling/anointing that imbues the ability or power to witness which accompanies the Person of the Holy Spirit indwelling believers.
Power "to be" a witness. A witness is a person who has seen and/or heard or experienced something. The dunamis power of the Holy Spirit "makes us something" - it makes us a witness of the resurrected Jesus. Witnesses have a "testimony" as to what they have witnessed.
What we call, "witnessing" we should actually call "testifying". We testify to what we have witnessed.
Acts 2:38-39 explicitly states repentance anf water baptism is for the forgiveness and infilling of the Holy Spirit, and this is a promise to all people. All the other prooftexts you give have nothing to do with us. Tell me, when did the Holy Spirit descend on Christ? Do we follow Christ or Cornelius?
In Acts 8, in context, it's very clear that there were at least 3 different things that happened to the Samaritans who believed, which were part of the overall process of salvation. First, they believed the gospel; they received the Word of God (therefore, they had become regenerated or born again), in the primary sense in which many Protestants use the term "saved", they were saved. Second, those that had believed were subsequently baptised in water, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, Scripture is then very specific that the Holy Spirit had not yet "fallen on" any of them; only later when the Apostles prayed for them, were they Baptised in The Holy Spirt, in that particular situation. Therefore, if we care to be intellectually honest with the text; then we could conclude that all 3 of these things happened to those Samaritan believers, and by, I believe, legitimate extrapolation, happened to every believer in the book of Acts, with the noted exception of Simon the former sorcerer (*although some of the believers in Acts, may have received those experiences in a different order, or almost simultaneously; although it seems, that believing resulting in regeneration, would of necessity, occur first).
@@1Corinthians6Verses9thru11
All those things also happened to Simon Magus. He just fell away from the faith (Acts 8:9-25).
@@1Corinthians6Verses9thru11 I think the bottom line is that modern-day believers either can't or don't want to believe in the Holy Spirit supernaturally manifesting Himself in and through believers in this present day. They have enough faith to believe that perhaps demons and evil spirits are real and can manifest themselves (e.g. the so-called "kundalini spirit" that every Pentecostal and Charismatic is accused of manifesting) but not the Holy Spirit of God.
This is quite sad, really, since Moses desired that all the Lord's people would be prophets and that the Lord would pour out His Spirit upon all of them, and the prophet Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and that "sons and daughters" would prophesy, old men would dream dreams and young men would see visions. And the Apostle Peter stated on the Day of Pentecost that Joel's prophecy was beginning to be fulfilled that very day.
However, Jesus had to deal with peoples' stubborn refusal to believe in His day, so it should be no surprise that we have to deal with it today. We are almost at the same place with the Church today that the Pharisees and Sadducees were at in the day of Jesus. No faith, but even worse, a stubborn refusal to believe.
I also think part of it is spiritual laziness. We don't want to take the time or the effort to discern the spirits, so we try to eliminate all of them so we can get about what really interests us. We also don't want to learn ourselves or teach others how to hear and recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit when He speaks to us, and how to discern between His voice and every other spiritual voice that communicates with us.
The result of this is leaving ourselves open to the demonic spirits while at the same time stopping our spiritual ears to the voice of the Holy Spirit. But this was prophesied as well in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared"
First time on this channel. I wholeheartedly agree with all you said about unity! So much so that I am hesitant to post this comment! I believe there is a Holy Spirit baptism, and that it is important, but I would not identify it as a “core essential doctrine.” How we believe on this point does not change who God is, how we are saved, or how much God loves and accepts us, so I agree with Mr. Miller’s basic answer to the question. However, my brother went a step beyond simply answering that question! He made it clear that he does not believe there is a Holy Spirit baptism, per se. He basically said; You can hold on to your experience and believe what you want regarding Holy Spirit baptism, but it is not really what you think it is. That is my summary of what he said, not a direct quote. His unconvincing answer to your Acts 8 and Acts 19 questions made his position perfectly clear. Since you agree with Joe Miller, I commend you for asking those pertinent questions! Some, perhaps many, Charismatic/Pentecostal congregations have departed from biblical guidelines. That sad situation does not change that fact that an experience separate in time from initial salvation, is recorded several places in the book of Acts. Dividing over this issue, in my opinion, would be sin. No, I am NOT implying that you folks are doing that! Only that the content of the video departed somewhat from the stated intention.
HI, let me clarify my position regarding what you heard. I believe every Christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit. That is what it is biblically.
@@jrmiller777 Thank you for the clarification. If my comment misrepresented your position in any way it was unintentional and I apologize.
You read the verse in Acts , it says that they were filled with the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and prophesied you didn’t expound on that?
"When you separate yourself by belief, nationality or tradition, it breeds violence. So one who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, religion or political party, but is concerned with the total understanding of mankind." J.Krishnamurti
Are we deprecating what is available for us by trying to choose unification over the fullness of the Spirit?
Alisa I appreciate you asking and exploring tough questions. I left RCC after 57 years and have been attending my husband's Pentacostal church for 2 years. I value the sermons of this pastor but can't agree that talking in tongues is evidence of baptism of the H. S. Also, their music is no longer hymns and psalms, but contemporary with some lyrics not even mentioning the Lord or Jesus. They don't have corporate prayer or creeds. I believe they used to but changed when they redecorated the sanctuary. My soul hurts and I wonder if I can accept any Church as they all seem to take a scripture and devise a whole denomination out of it!
Thank-you for your thoughtful interview. I really liked it.
One of my fav scriptures on this is John 7:38,39
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
One of the things we have to be cognizant of while we are delving into the question about all this is 1Cor 13:8, For now we see in a mirror, dimly, the mirrors back then were very crude brass, as smart as we are, and you 2 are very smart, we all still have this spiritual astigmatism, we all end up being myopic to one degree or another, so after all the differing narratives and nuances w/i them we will never accurately be able to totally see the big picture of what the bapt of the H.S. is and isn't. God seems to break all the boxes we put Him in. The sweet thing is that the love and grace of God is bigger than our differences, like God loves us and works w/ and w/in us in spite of our lack of perfection.
Much of the historical context of this conversation is post azuza street revival. Some of those Azuza videos are still available to watch and honestly for me, I'm closest to Assembly of God, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable in those meetings. But God worked powerfully in spite of the messiness. I like things done properly as much as the next guy, but I was standing next to my wife when she was healed - it was legit, and it was a messy church.
Some years ago I read "The Story of Christianity" in volume 2 it described the beginnings of some of the mainline denominations, it wasn't too hard to see that it was an outpouring of the H.S. combined with some serious continuous prayer was the power behind all those revivals.
So here we are 2023 trying to put 2000+ years into biblical perspective.
I like how God talks of the gifts in I Cor 12 and 14 and nicely sandwiched in between them in 13 He tells us to be nice to each other and if you are not nice you are nothing.
God is smarter than you and He's certainly smarter than me. LOL
Ok Ok I'll stop with this, just for fun pretend as best you can that you've don't know anything about Christianity and then read 1Cor 12:28
"God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31
For hermeneutical context read all of 12, 13 and 14, These were Paul's/God's instructions to us how to do church. kinda scary isn't it.
Question. Why did the Samaritans need the Holy Spirit when they are believers already . The Jews accepted them after they received the same “ seal of the Holy Spirit “ and the accompanying manifestation
I speculate that the antipathy the Jews had towards gentiles needed a strong witness to fix their prejudice.
Just to be clear we’re not talking about the results of this ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ to be people quacking like ducks, barking like dogs, rolling in the aisles or swinging from the chandelier right? From my 35 years in the ‘charismatic movement’ there are many extremes! Give me a church that is grounded in biblical exegesis!
What is so frustrating is the baptism of the Holy Spirit; for me, if I am not or have not, does that mean I am not in Gods will as much as those who have been?
If I am not laughing in the spirit, or I am not doing some super natural work, am I not going to be in His favor? Will my blessings not be as many as those who are baptized in the spirit?
Thank you for all you do! I'm in NY and would love to attend one of your conferences. Would you ever be in the area?
John 2:22 When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
This happened before the Pentecost in Acts 2.The disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 2:22 and experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. You receive the Holy Spirit to be born again, you are baptised in the Holy Spirit to live out the born again life. It is a very personal thing.
Some Christians may think that they don't need the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and are happy with it. However, you never experience what you never experience.
Agree! Thank you!
The disciples did receive the indwelling Holy Spirit before Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit came upon them for specific SERVICE for the building and edification of the Church. I don't think every believer is called to a specific service. Everyone is called unto good works, testifying of Christ, etc but I don't think everyone is called for a specific service. The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is for living the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit coming upon people is for service, where it is actually the Spirit doing the service through them. That's why the Spirit came upon them more than once. It was always when they were preaching boldly or performing miracles or being persecuted. Special times required special endowment of the Spirit. And, I believe the Holy Spirit came upon them at His own will, not at the will of man. "As the Spirit gave them utterance" applies to everything He does, not when we will. I think probably so man doesn't think he is the one doing the work and gets a big head. There will be no mistake when it is the Holy Spirit and not ourselves. Just my two cents.
You are either for Him or against Him, according to Scripture. There’s only 2 teams. There are no half-way Christians and no second class Christians. Saying some believers are anointed with “The Helper” Holy Spirit… and some are not … is not scriptural. If it was, then those living in constant sin, could simply say “it’s not fault, I haven’t been Baptized in Helper/Spirit yet”…
God's Spirit is within the heart and very being of us, His Children. Never understood the pastor's who call to the heavens "I want more of your Spirit Lord!". Huh? Whaat?
Relatives have told me for years that since I don't speak in tongues I am not a Christian 😢
I wish you would have discussed tongues more. Like did you speak in tongues and now don't? There was a time that I was taught to seek tongues. They didn't come naturally so I made up syllables like I was told until a "prayer language" developed. I used this language for years but after leaving a church due to NAR, I began to question everything. So to this day, this language sometimes comes out of my mouth when praying or worshipping and I stop and tell God to show me if I should be speaking that. I haven't received a clear answer from Him yet. 🤔
I don't ever recall Jesus speaking in tongues, so I believe that should be your answer. Is jesus any less, because he didn't? Sure not.
David Pawson has several videos teaching on The Trinity, The Gifts of The Holy Spirit and much more. His unlocking The Bible videos and books are wonderful and enlightening. He said the word used for God in Genesis actually means 3 and other hints of the Trinity through the Old Testament. In The New Testament, the Trinity is used often for example... The love of God, the grace of The Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of The Holy Spirit.
Honest Q: modalism was contemporaneous with early trinitarianism. Why is it considered heresy instead of just heterodox? It affirms the absolute deity of Christ, oneness of God, humanity of Christ, etc…just restricts itself to only biblical equivalent terminology whereas trinitarianism allows for extra-biblical and (a step further) non biblical equivalent terminology. Thoughts?
Eph 1:13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth- the gospel of your salvation- you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory
(Acts 19:2) "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed" looks like there is a second baptism.
Also that story about Smith Wigglesworth punching someone, and they died is not true.
One thing I have noticed is that people who have excuses for being powerless put down those who, in the past, allegedly had power. We weren't there, we don't know for certain it is defamation. Best to not judge.
In reference to Acts-chapter 19:1-6. Paul has met a group of believers who have been baptized by John’s baptism following repentance through Jesus. These have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul goes on to tell them about being baptized, in the name ofJesus, and being filled with the Holy Ghost. After they are filled, they are speaking with tongues. All through the chapters of Acts and in I Corinthians it many times referenced that after people have been filled with the Holy Ghost they speak in tongues. I was a little confused about the man sharing his viewpoints. I always follow the word of God, not a doctrinal belief by man. We all should follow the word of God. These are some thoughts I thought I could share also in light of what he said. I have really enjoyed watching you on this podcast. I know you might have been led astray by charismatic circles that you were in. I also was involved in some charismatic churches, but also the Church of God and the Assembly of God. No matter what our experiences may have been whether good or bad the Bible still holds true. The Bible still references numerous times of the Holy Ghost indwelling people. And that is still as good today as it was then. Remember, in Acts where Peter says and this promise is to your children and your children’s children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call. That does away with the belief that it is gone and it does not manifest itself still today. Thank you so much and have a wonderful evening. 🙏
Was it the kind of situation where someone pronounces your name wrong and you don't correct it the first time, and then it becomes too awkward to say something as time goes on and you've had them on for multiple podcasts? 😅 I get it, I was Amanda rather than Annabel to one of my professors at college for 3 years, until my course mate decided to correct him at graduation haha
How can Spirit Baptism be a doctrine from 1901 after we just read from the book of Acts! What?????
I've heard an audible voice while I was praying while doing laundry at home praying for my oldest child. It was a clear loud voice, I was so surprised and touched by it. The message was clear, grateful for the answer. I don't know if it was the voice of the Holy Spirit or an angel, but it was precious to me. I've had visions in prayer, received messages for others, and am privileged humbled that God would use me from time to time. At times, I cried out for it for answers and intimacy with God.
I'm not crazy about the hyper charismatic movement, but like your guest said, don't quench the Spirit, and please don't ridicule it! I'm so so tired of the accusers of the brethren who are at least trying, bolder in following God, so tired of the religious critics, it so saddens me so much, but yes, I agree, language and how we use it is so important.
@Petronela Wilson AGREED. You spoke my very thoughts as I listen to this.
And please Petronela, don’t call the Holy Spirit “it”…..,
All Christians have their own personal testimonies. But we can't exposit personal experiences. Scripture says to test the spirits. We have to test them against the truth of Scripture.
@@psalm1197 The Holy Spirit is an "it". The angel Gabriel called it "the power of the Highest" in Luk. 1:35. The fact that Jhn 1:1 doesn't mention the Holy Spirit as a God ought to make any thinking person reconsider the credibility of the trinity doctrine. If the Holy Spirit is a God as trinitarians claim, that would make the Holy Spirit Christ's Father instead of the actual Father(Matt. 1:20).
@maxmustermann1206 are you sure about that. Isn't your salvation an experience? How about your baptism? What about when yiu spend time in the presence of God praying or worshiping? Is that not an experience ???
Is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit a Core Essential Doctrine? It depends what you mean. If the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is another description of the new birth then it is indeed a core doctrine.
If you are referring to a "second blessing" or special anointing, this can be a divisive topic though one preacher, it might have been Moody, said, "I don't care what you call it, just get it!"
I grew up Pentecostal, and I am still Pentecostal, but there is such a misconception with people from the other side because we never have a discussion. I have been told my entire life that people who believe in the trinity worship 3 gods and worship 1... can you imagine my shock when I found out that wasn't true, lol. I'm sure that there are misconceptions you have about Pentecostals too, lol
Where’s the list of the essentials?
Do you feel you received and accurate understanding of the Holy Spirit while attending ORU? I'm a Pentecostal, but would never attend a university associated with Robert's, Hagin, Copeland or Johnson. Their error in practice comes from a twisting of doctrine and theology.
I don't see a link to his book... Amazon says it's out of print 😞
Matthew 3:11 ”I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
John 1:32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
A Continuationist is better described as a Restorationist in my opinion . This is based on writings on people involved in the Azusa Street Revival. Then more recently Che Ann (New Apostolic Reformation). There are some well documented TH-cam presentations that cover this.
I have a collection of material (videos/writings/books) of people that have “heard from God”. Often resulting in negative consequences or manipulating others. Then you look at the other religions and the Christian cults that have origin in subjective experiences and we now have a witches brew of theology and doctrine.
Do you go to a doctor or a car mechanic that operates on inner impressions??
The NAR is a cult. None of the supposed sign gifts they do look like the sign gifts recorded in Scripture.
A great error among believers is that many key words in the new testament have a different meaning in the new testaments' original Greek than they do in our English trannslation.
In scripture to where we must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved, the word for "in" or "on" in the original language is eis which means " into"
For instance, in Pauls' conversation with the disciples outside of Ephesus in Acts ch.19 he tells them,"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people, that they should believe ( eis into) him which should come after him Christ Jesus".
" On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus". The disciples believed by what they did not by what they mentally agreed with
I would advise all readers to get a copy of Strongs Exhaustive Concordance Of The New Testament which makes tracing the original meaning of key words in the English version easy.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love [Matthew 5:44; John 13:34; John 15:12; Galatians 5:22], I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
❤❤
Also, Jesus was introduced in all four gospels as the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
Only born-again children of God are baptized with or in the Holy Spirit.
You must be born again before you can see or enter the kingdom.
After you are born again you can receive the promise of the Father, the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The apostles were born again on the day of Jesus' resurrection. On that day Jesus called them His brothers and called His God their God and His Father their Father. That is evidence that they were born again and in the new covenant.
Fifty days later they were baptized in/with the Holy Spirit and clothed with power (dunamis) from heaven.
Being clothed with power is different from being born again. It was the beginning of God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh and not just select individuals.
Born again believers were baptized in the Holy Spirit, not unregenerated people.
Brethren can also mean brethren which means the blood family of Israel or the Jews. Not necessarily a context of being saved.
@@davidchupp4460 They would have to be born again to have the same Father as Jesus, wouldn't they?
Ummm....yes it is, since Jesus told the disciples to not leave until the were empowered from on high. Very different from the chapter in John, John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. The message in Luke is about waiting for the Holy Spirit, Ruach Ha' Kodesh, from on high. They weren't to leave Jerusalem until they had been empowered. Again very different then being baptized in water. Yes, Ephesians says one baptism, but you left out Hebrews 6 where the writer makes the point of saying that baptisms (plural) were an elementary doctrine. Something that every Christian should know about. Baptisms, not one. The sum of God's scripture is truth, not what some pull out of context. I love my brothers and sisters from every denomination who believe in Jesus and have repented of their sins. The Samaritans hadn't received the Holy Spirit, but yet they had been baptized...hmmm...same thing with Cornelius. He and his whole household, which was a lot of people, were filled with power from on high, before being baptized in water. Jesus didn't let the disciples go out on their own until He had given them authority and power, even though they had been baptized in water. He didn't let the 72 go out on their own either until He had given them authority and power. A huge difference between been baptized and identifying with His death, burial and resurrection and being circumcised in heart versus being filled with power. Jesus Himself did not due a miracle until He was baptized in water and then the Spirit came down on Him. He is our remodel in everything, our Lord and the one we imitate.
I would classify myself as a charismatic, but I don't agree with the second filling theology that is common. It was described to me as a goblet that you fill to the brim with liquid, but it does not overflow. That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit when you get saved. The second baptism of the Holy Spirit is like adding extra liquid to what is already there to make it overflow. That second gives dose is what gives access to speaking in tongues. I don't think that second dose is needed but instead the original liquid that was poured in is the source and everything signs and wonders related comes from that. The baptism at salvation shouldn't require another dose, if you will.
Hebrew 6:1-4 doctrine of baptisms. Not discussed. Sounds like a very generic definition. Playing it safe Jesus was pretty strong in His language about not leaving Jerusalem until. John 20 Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit. Did they? No Discussion here.
When an infant is baptized, he/she is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. As they grow, they have the need to seek to be always filled by the Holy Spirit so as to live a holy life. As for tongues, I have yet to encounter anyone who suddenly is able to speak a language, say French or Urdu, without having learned it. If that were to occur, it woukd have worth only if it could be understood by a speaker of that language. Anybody can produce sounds that mimic language to some extent. What I have heard as "tongues" is more akin to babbling the same repeated sounds.
The specific instances of speaking in tongues in the Bible are for communication. There is no reason for God to stop doing that. However, I think that in this time of distrust of miracles God is more likely to make Google translate accurate for a change.
The kind of speaking in tongues you speak of, everyone babbling at one with no translation, is specifically prohibited in Corinthians. I paraphrase Paul: One at a time, and if no one translates, sit down and shut up.
Paul also validates prayer in tongues by saying that it is not as good as praying in a language one understands.
I truly feel like I'm in grade school with this guy? First the Bible says those who are lead by the Spirit are the Sons of God! Then it says if you don't have the Spirit your not of Him? How can someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit walk United with someone who isn't? They cannot? The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ Spirit living in you! So I no longer am trying to save the world but Christ is ministering thru me? The Baptism is the full Born Again Experience and yes you will speak in tongues! Today we have so many speaking in tongues that are not of the Holy Spirit? The Bible says you will know them by there fruit 🍓 Love, Joy, Peace , Long-suffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith , Meekness, Self Control, And the gifts of the Holy Spirit come thru the Holy Spirit as Jesus sees fit to distribute them to His servant! I cannot cast a demon out without a Spirit Filled believer who is filled with the Holy Spirit who believes the same! How can someone explain as spiritual things to someone who does not have the fullness of the Spirit? I cannot! Just like John's the Baptist Disciples said we have not even heard of the Holy Ghost! Until Paul layed hands on them they did not have the Holy Spirit! Many deny Holy spirit today! The Holy Spirit teaches you and leads you after your Baptized in the Holy Ghost! You feel like a baby at what ever age you are when Baptized with the Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit teaches you how to walk in the Spirit! You feel every sin, scar, and your past leave when you are born again? As you read God's word more you will learn that the Holy Spirit opens up more understanding and is in agreement with the Word Of God! So much more? Speaking in tongues is God's prayer language praying they you! And it molds you to be more like Jesus? So whatever is done either casting demons out, healings, prophecy , decernment, whatever Gifts will be Jesus working thru you ministering to the world! All Glory and Honor must go to Jesus
Many years ago the late theologian Don Barnhouse did a talk on One Church. No, he wasn't talking about all of us uniting into one denomination. He talked about how it is about 5% of what you believe that I totally disagree with. That is true of all denominations. Five percent. And what do we as a body of Christ do? We concentrate on the 5% and don't work together. Sad
The UPCI believe you MUST receive the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues. Sadly, they exclude the Christian church in total.💔
I keep trying to like, but it won't work 😞
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the born-again / re-birth experience of salvation....with or without tongues & with or without water baptism.
So, YES....it is Core Doctrne.
B of HS is "the WASHING of rebirth & renewal by the Holy Spirit".
Titus 3:4-7
"This baptism saves you..."
1 Peter 3:21
And we believers "have all been baptized by one and the same Spirit."
1 Corinthians 12:13
All life is a work of the Spirit.
Paraphrasing: "You don't need the label Holy Spirit baptism." The label "Holy Spirit baptism" is not something made up by men. It was mentioned by the Lord ("remain in the city until you receive power from on high") as something the disciples/apostles would experience if they obeyed him and remained in Jerusalem. so not only was it a specific experience, it happened in a specific place. The experience here is NOT JUST in what they (the apostles) were able to do (speak in tongues, etc) but was also HOW it happened. How this "pouring out" happened was with visible tongues of fire from heaven and the audible sound of a rushing of wind. The next time it happens is with the encounter with Cornelius. Peter describes the experience in Acts 11 saying "the Holy Spirit came down on them in he same way as it came on us at the beginning." So we can presume that there were visible tongues of fire and an audible sound of winds in the home of Cornelius. This specific way that the Holy Spirit "came down" is never described or referenced again anywhere in Acts or in the NT. It's only these two instances. Peter's affirmation in Acts 11:16 "...you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit" is confirmation that a baptism in the Holy Spirit is an event just like the one we observe in Acts 2. We can address what happens after this baptism (the ability to perform miracles) later and also see that this event isn't necessary any longer as observed in Acts because conferring miracles is replaced from the Holy Spirit "coming down" on people with one of the elementary teachings - the "laying on of hands."
Great conversation. One issue I had is that the idea that the goal is to have nothing of ourselves left. I don't think that is a biblical idea. God made humankind so there would be each of us - having His nature, but distinct and different persons. It is our sinful nature that we want to be redeemed, sanctified, and ultimately (in heaven) gone. One of the recurring themes from people who died and experienced heaven was they were more themselves (more real) than on earth. How can we love others as we love ourselves if there is "nothing" of ourselves to love. I think it is actually harmful to tell people that we want ourselves to be nothing, like we have no value and that God doesn't really like us.
The unity longed for by your guest and so many of us will never be realized as long as "superior Christians" look down on Pentecostals as ignorant, unlearned people, going so far as to say that speaking in tongues is demonic. Seems to me that those are the people who cherish disunity over unity in the Body. But thats okay. If I remember correctly, God used a few "ignorant and unlearned men" to turn the world upside down for Christ! ❤
If your guided by the Holy Spirit completely you can’t be wrong. The problem with us humans is we’re in this fleshly bodie in a fallen world and are not in tune 24/7. If someone divides on doctrine only one can be right. We have no connection to God but through the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is our High Priest that we bring our petitions to through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our connection to God. Without the Holy Spirit we are spiritually dead
The idea that the old testament has the Holy Spirit coming upon people in a transitory way for a specific purpose and the new testament has the Holy Spirit transformatively indwelling everyone, isn't without problems, in that the Holy Spirit also came upon the New Testament church at Pentecost to anoint them with Spiritual Gifts for the work of ministry, particularly tongues in that specific case (not all cases, and tongues is not the only gift of the Spirit, nor the most important one) and the problem with the Holy Spirit being transformative only in the New Testament is that it denies and/or fails to account for Ezekiel 36:26-27 which says that God will give His people a new heart and a new Spirit, He will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, He will put HIS Spirit in them and cause them to obey His statutes, to keep His judgments and do them, and also denies and/or fails to take into account Psalm 51:10-13 where David prays for God to create in him a clean heart, to renew a right Spirit within him, to uphold Him by God's generous Spirit, to not restore to Him the joy of salvation and to not take the Holy Spirit from him, so that he can teach transgressors God's ways, and that sinners can be converted to God (being converted is not something that was invented in the New Testament, it was known in the time when Psalm 51 was written). A dispensational pneumatology has the Old Testament believers legitimately depending on themselves for righteousness because they do not have access to the righteousness of God in order to submit thereto, because the transformation of the Holy Spirit is not available, leaving them only with their own righteousness to depend on, but Hebrews 4:2 says that the Gospel was also preached to those in the old testament, but it did not benefit them because of their unbelief.
The only gift that we are promised is the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit Himself. We are instructed to ask the Father for this gift. All the other things we call "gifts" are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit expressing His Person and His power through us.
Acts 8 and Samaritans - The apostles had to come to Samaria to verify the account and ALSO to lay hands on the new believers and confer the ability to perform miracles (further equip them for ministry) precisely because Phillip did not have the ability to lay hands on them and confer the gift of miraculous works himself. Although Phillip could perform miracles (after the apostles laid hands on him in Acts 6) apparently he could not confer that ability onto others or else he would have. That's why the apostles came. Yes the Samaritan believers were saved by Phillip, his message of repentance, and baptizing them with water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. They were faithful believers who could not speak in tongues, prophecy, or heal until the apostles came and laid hands on them. 2 separate manifestations of the Holy Spirit - the indwelling and the outpouring. Indwelling confers salvation (at initial repentance and water baptism). Outpouring confers miraculous works (at either baptism of the Holy Spirit from "on high" aka straight from heaven OR via laying on at the apostles hands as Acts 8 clearly states).
When Jesus breathed upon the disciples telling them to “Recieve the Holy Spirit”… he was ONLY looking fwd to the time of Pentecost in which he promised “you will recieve” the Holy Spirit.
If, this single statement upon breathing on his disciples, as many wrongly interpret, is the disciples ACTUALLY RECIEVING the Holy Spirit then something is wrong here…for the apostles mark their born again cleansing as their baptism with the Holy Spirit in defending the faith, repentance unto eternal life, and also reception of the Holy Spirit of gentiles as like unto their own SALVATION at Pentecost clearly for all to read in Acts 10,11, & 15.
Additionally, when Jesus is resurrrcted…he is yet STILL WITH THEM. So, the Advocate (Holy Spirit) would neither have indwelt nor baptized any of them per Jesus earlier testimony of the Spirits arrival.
(Jn 16:7)