Just started trying to both sing this and play it on the piano at the same time. This has been a big help! I’ve loved singing Après un Rêve for a while but never realized how incorrectly I pronounced everything.
it is very good to study with Gabriel Fauré, which is decidedly the best french composer regarding french prosody (see also Charles Gounod in second, and Jules Massenet in third). Take into account that his approach of poetry is very subtle, and include some kind of special french "second degree"... It is not about joking ou ironizing, but understanding how Fauré doesn't put "directly", dramaticaly, the words in music, but use it as global emotion. He is a true part of the "gallant tradition" : at the same time "beau humour" and "manly strength and suffering"... It's essential to balance these two sides, it is rightly the goal. Not falling in one or other excess : it's almost a human discipline.
Taking care of not singing it as an italian song... it is a "in the manner of" ... Fauré use the venitian vibe as an exoticism, as an "elsewhere"... but, of course, the feeling is the one of Fauré, and, for good, very french. I think, "global nostalgy" of the piece is to prefer to a first degree dramatization, favoring the global line, and tight and dense and sustained LEGATO. The singing has to be surrounded by haze of pased sunshine and achievements and existing irremediable drought (that's the global feeling of the piece in my humble opinion). For the piano part, the same : balance and homogenize between manly lines and support pillars, and vaporous surrondings. Warning of not taking rubato, Fauré was not using of it (we are not in Puccini), but, by the contrary making felling the beat of heart moving forward inexorably
+Laura Harding Well spotted. One an be as careful as one likes, errors still creep in! I am actually aware of these and can't quite decide what to do - partly because it will take time.. I can correct the video and replace this one - but lose the the following this link has. I don't think TH-cam allow a video to be updated. Because the spoken lines are correct, and they are correct in the later score I have allowed myself to be a bit complacent.
first: bravo, great work! ok always happens mistakes. I have question: I listened to George Thill, generally his pronouciation was the same, but i found the liason at devines entrevues he didn't make.... One should do or not?
I am glad you found it helpful. Some rules for liaisons are absolute, some choice. This one is optional. Personally I always sang this one, but keep it light if you do.
a french korrepetior from the Dresden Musikhochschule told us not do liason after substantives, but i also found examples when Grerad Souzai(?) did it... seams really tricky ... but it enriches the life to discuss and learn new ideas and habits 😊 The reference to the vocal harmony was very important, i didn't know this.
Personally I love Souzay, but his French is a matter of taste. He makes more liaisons than almost anybody else. However I have also just checked with Bernac's book and he chooses to make the liaison here too. It is again a question of taste, but without the liaison there is inevitably a very un-French hiatus.
Interesting commentary on these two singers in this piece. I believe Thill actually does make the liaison at "divines entrevues," but it is hard to hear over the crackling hiss of needle on shellac (more audible on some of the cleaner masterings of his recording). Souzay does add curious things; artistic license, I suppose. A delicate word-final L sound in "sommeil" at the beginning, as well as a liaison at "m'appelais et" in the second verse where most others either connect the vowels or pause as you said (sounds like Thill maybe even snatches a quick breath between the words here). Certainly a distinctive style.
Effectivement il y a des erreurs, mais malheureusement on ne peut pas modifier une vidéo une fois qu'elle a été publiée sur TH-cam. Je pourrais éventuellement supprimer celle-ci et de la remplacer, mais il y a trop de gens qui l’utilise déjà - c’est frustrant! J’ai pensé à faire la même chose pour un chant en anglais - mais cela prend beaucoup de temps et je ne sais pas si il y aurait autant d'intérêt?
Very interesting work. I'm French. For me, you forget to make the difference between " e fermé" et "e ouvert". For example, at the end of the words, the "e" generally mute is a "e ouvert" and it's written in IPA with another symbol, the letter e upside down. In your video, all the "e" are "fermés", with the IPA symbol like a circle with a line. (the word "tes yeux" is with a "e fermé"). But, unfortunately, when you see "eu" it doesn't mean that it's always "fermé"! "Bonheur" is with a " e ouvert"! So, you need to double check in a dictionnary with phonetic!
(I am French too). In fact, in modern spoken French, there is a strong tendency to confuse the sound /ø/, as in "yeux ; feu ; heureux", and the unaccented "e", the shwa /ə/. Most French speakers will now pronounce: "le petit renard" (the little fox) in this way: /lø pøti rønar/, when classical French would require /lə pəti rənar/. When singing classical songs, I find it preferable to keep the classic shwa /ə/, especially in the final unaccented "e"'s. As for the pronunciation of the "r", the old-fashioned flipped R is now considered outdated, even in classical singing, and many young singers have switched to the modern French "r". There is, of course, a controversy on this subject!
très bien... I also recommand to listen to native french singers (such as Charles Panzera or others)... and also to greats french speakers (as Andre Malraux speech of 1964 th-cam.com/video/vZbeMLga6gA/w-d-xo.html ). Just to catch the spirit of french speaking. And after, making your own "cooking" !
Perhaps you would tell me what your authority is here. I worked extensively in France as an English singer respected for impeccable French diction and pronunciation - and winning prizes judged by eminent French singers. As an English singer I was aware that I had to be far more careful with pronunciation than any native singer or I would be immediately criticised for errors. Interestingly I knew what I was doing was different from what was considered received French pronunciation. What I present here is what I worked out with French coaches, working in France.
This was not a direct criticism on you, and I have no reason to doubt your credentials (and I don’t see how giving my credentials would help? It’s not like one of us is better because of them). My comment was not intended as confrontational, and as such, perhaps you could clear up my confusion with your video: -many (é)s we’re not said as I understand them to be said: rhyming with English “day”, and instead they were IPA (i) or traditional French e. -Rayonnais should have “ay” rhyme with “rye” not “day”. Combining of ah and i forms a different sound from what was heard in the video. -Des, tes, mes all are the a of “chaos” not the “duh, tuh, muh” I heard in the video. -Ton is not “tone”, is is similar to “dans” with the -on and the -ans. I am a French student in high school, however my teacher is from France and teaches an IB program at the school. Does this make you or I better at French? No. You’re certainly more experienced than I, but everyone has errors from time to time, and experience is not equal to superiority. Regardless, if I did make mistakes, please tell me and add why. It would help with further French study.
@@carsonh7222 I certainly am not worried - or I would simply delete the post! It is important to know where people come from when replying, which is my I asked for you background. The purpose of this video is to make people aware of some of the difficulties encountered by English speakers when confronted with French, so it is good you ask! The English "day" is a diphthong [dɛj]. Diphthongs are widespread in English and hard for English speakers to eliminate. An "é" is always [e] in French - a closed "e". This is hard for English speakers as it is a "clean" vowel - ie. a non-diphthong. Some French teachers ignore this and allow the diphthong because it would still be understood in France, albeit recognised as an English accent. In singing however it is unacceptable. Any decent French or French-English dictionary will have a phonetic transcription of all words. Check it out! Rayonnais is as I have said here - [rɛ-jɔ-nɛ] not [ra-jɔ-nɛ]. The infinitive of the verb is rayonner - again, check you dictionary. You will find this for yourself! Des, tes and mes are all open "e"s as in [dɛ] - I am not sure why you have picked up [dø]. The French word "de"should however sung [dø]. Mind you the pronunciation of des, tes and mes all vary around the country, so you will find disagreement here - again, check you dictionary. Ton on its own or followed by a consonant is pronounced [tõ]. Followed by a vowel, as in "ton image" the "n" becomes pronounced as a liaison, and in effect becomes the first letter of the next syllable [tõ nimaj]. This allows for a fluid flow of the text, without a hiatus between the two vowels as in [tõ imaj]. This is a fundamental rule of French pronunciation. Above all, enjoy your French - it is a wonderful language and one that repays curiosity! C
Just started trying to both sing this and play it on the piano at the same time. This has been a big help! I’ve loved singing Après un Rêve for a while but never realized how incorrectly I pronounced everything.
This is extraordinarily helpful.
I love the person who did this.
Camila Araneda Thank you!
This is excellent - a comprehensive study of the sounds you need to sing this effectively - fantastic
Belo Horizonte -Brasil
Very interesting explanation!
BRAVO!!!!
Excellent enunciation in both English and French.
Merci.
Very well done! Thanks so much for sharing your fantastic work.
I originally sang this song back in my early 20s. I wish I had this tutorial then. Thank you kindly.
This is so helpful and clear. Thank you
Thank you so much! This is brilliant! You have my greatest respect!
Thank you so much! I'm singing this song now, so it's very useful for me
it is very good to study with Gabriel Fauré, which is decidedly the best french composer regarding french prosody (see also Charles Gounod in second, and Jules Massenet in third). Take into account that his approach of poetry is very subtle, and include some kind of special french "second degree"... It is not about joking ou ironizing, but understanding how Fauré doesn't put "directly", dramaticaly, the words in music, but use it as global emotion. He is a true part of the "gallant tradition" : at the same time "beau humour" and "manly strength and suffering"... It's essential to balance these two sides, it is rightly the goal. Not falling in one or other excess : it's almost a human discipline.
So helpful. Thank you!
Amazing! I'm singing this and this is so Helpful! Thank you very much!
Wonderful!!! It is so very useful for me to sing this song
Fantastique! Merci.
Excellent: so helpful. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
This is excellent!!
Thank you!
Thanks a lot! It was very useful for me!
Here is a timestamp for when the music played at the end starts: 13:47
Vielen Dank!!! Diese text hilfe mir viele!!!!
Thank you^^
There is an [a] missing in the transcription of "image"
thank you!
Taking care of not singing it as an italian song... it is a "in the manner of" ... Fauré use the venitian vibe as an exoticism, as an "elsewhere"... but, of course, the feeling is the one of Fauré, and, for good, very french. I think, "global nostalgy" of the piece is to prefer to a first degree dramatization, favoring the global line, and tight and dense and sustained LEGATO. The singing has to be surrounded by haze of pased sunshine and achievements and existing irremediable drought (that's the global feeling of the piece in my humble opinion). For the piano part, the same : balance and homogenize between manly lines and support pillars, and vaporous surrondings. Warning of not taking rubato, Fauré was not using of it (we are not in Puccini), but, by the contrary making felling the beat of heart moving forward inexorably
Thanks... So helpful
and 'entrevues' you have the initial nasal open E instead of dark a...edits!
+Laura Harding Well spotted. One an be as careful as one likes, errors still creep in! I am actually aware of these and can't quite decide what to do - partly because it will take time.. I can correct the video and replace this one - but lose the the following this link has. I don't think TH-cam allow a video to be updated. Because the spoken lines are correct, and they are correct in the later score I have allowed myself to be a bit complacent.
first: bravo, great work!
ok always happens mistakes.
I have question: I listened to George Thill, generally his pronouciation was the same, but i found the liason at devines entrevues he didn't make.... One should do or not?
I am glad you found it helpful. Some rules for liaisons are absolute, some choice. This one is optional. Personally I always sang this one, but keep it light if you do.
a french korrepetior from the Dresden Musikhochschule told us not do liason after substantives, but i also found examples when Grerad Souzai(?) did it... seams really tricky ... but it enriches the life to discuss and learn new ideas and habits 😊
The reference to the vocal harmony was very important, i didn't know this.
Personally I love Souzay, but his French is a matter of taste. He makes more liaisons than almost anybody else. However I have also just checked with Bernac's book and he chooses to make the liaison here too. It is again a question of taste, but without the liaison there is inevitably a very un-French hiatus.
Interesting commentary on these two singers in this piece. I believe Thill actually does make the liaison at "divines entrevues," but it is hard to hear over the crackling hiss of needle on shellac (more audible on some of the cleaner masterings of his recording).
Souzay does add curious things; artistic license, I suppose. A delicate word-final L sound in "sommeil" at the beginning, as well as a liaison at "m'appelais et" in the second verse where most others either connect the vowels or pause as you said (sounds like Thill maybe even snatches a quick breath between the words here). Certainly a distinctive style.
Amusant, pas mal! la même chose pour chanter en Anglais?
Attention: "tes yeux étaiENt plus doux"
Effectivement il y a des erreurs, mais malheureusement on ne peut pas modifier une vidéo une fois qu'elle a été publiée sur TH-cam. Je pourrais éventuellement supprimer celle-ci et de la remplacer, mais il y a trop de gens qui l’utilise déjà - c’est frustrant!
J’ai pensé à faire la même chose pour un chant en anglais - mais cela prend beaucoup de temps et je ne sais pas si il y aurait autant d'intérêt?
you gotta put the [a] in image lol
also, inconnue- you have [nu] rather than [ny] there, oops
Tes yeux étaiENT plus doux , thanks ...
Oui - Il y a quelques erreurs qui seraient faciles à corriger. Malheureusement, TH-cam n'autorise pas l'édition de vidéos.
No worries , fantastic work , our language is amazingly complicated when I see how you describe it …
This confuses me as well
3:52
Not perfect, but this study is really good and helpful. Listen to the advice, they are all relevant.
Very interesting work. I'm French. For me, you forget to make the difference between " e fermé" et "e ouvert". For example, at the end of the words, the "e" generally mute is a "e ouvert" and it's written in IPA with another symbol, the letter e upside down. In your video, all the "e" are "fermés", with the IPA symbol like a circle with a line. (the word "tes yeux" is with a "e fermé"). But, unfortunately, when you see "eu" it doesn't mean that it's always "fermé"! "Bonheur" is with a " e ouvert"! So, you need to double check in a dictionnary with phonetic!
(I am French too). In fact, in modern spoken French, there is a strong tendency to confuse the sound /ø/, as in "yeux ; feu ; heureux", and the unaccented "e", the shwa /ə/.
Most French speakers will now pronounce: "le petit renard" (the little fox) in this way: /lø pøti rønar/, when classical French would require /lə pəti rənar/.
When singing classical songs, I find it preferable to keep the classic shwa /ə/, especially in the final unaccented "e"'s.
As for the pronunciation of the "r", the old-fashioned flipped R is now considered outdated, even in classical singing, and many young singers have switched to the modern French "r". There is, of course, a controversy on this subject!
13:46 for those who need it :)
8:09 9:38 10:28
très bien... I also recommand to listen to native french singers (such as Charles Panzera or others)... and also to greats french speakers (as Andre Malraux speech of 1964 th-cam.com/video/vZbeMLga6gA/w-d-xo.html ). Just to catch the spirit of french speaking. And after, making your own "cooking" !
1:04
Despite the fact that this is very interesting - and I respect your research - some of your pronunciations were wrong.
Perhaps you would tell me what your authority is here. I worked extensively in France as an English singer respected for impeccable French diction and pronunciation - and winning prizes judged by eminent French singers. As an English singer I was aware that I had to be far more careful with pronunciation than any native singer or I would be immediately criticised for errors. Interestingly I knew what I was doing was different from what was considered received French pronunciation. What I present here is what I worked out with French coaches, working in France.
This was not a direct criticism on you, and I have no reason to doubt your credentials (and I don’t see how giving my credentials would help? It’s not like one of us is better because of them). My comment was not intended as confrontational, and as such, perhaps you could clear up my confusion with your video:
-many (é)s we’re not said as I understand them to be said: rhyming with English “day”, and instead they were IPA (i) or traditional French e.
-Rayonnais should have “ay” rhyme with “rye” not “day”. Combining of ah and i forms a different sound from what was heard in the video.
-Des, tes, mes all are the a of “chaos” not the “duh, tuh, muh” I heard in the video.
-Ton is not “tone”, is is similar to “dans” with the -on and the -ans.
I am a French student in high school, however my teacher is from France and teaches an IB program at the school. Does this make you or I better at French? No. You’re certainly more experienced than I, but everyone has errors from time to time, and experience is not equal to superiority.
Regardless, if I did make mistakes, please tell me and add why. It would help with further French study.
@@carsonh7222 I certainly am not worried - or I would simply delete the post! It is important to know where people come from when replying, which is my I asked for you background. The purpose of this video is to make people aware of some of the difficulties encountered by English speakers when confronted with French, so it is good you ask!
The English "day" is a diphthong [dɛj]. Diphthongs are widespread in English and hard for English speakers to eliminate. An "é" is always [e] in French - a closed "e". This is hard for English speakers as it is a "clean" vowel - ie. a non-diphthong. Some French teachers ignore this and allow the diphthong because it would still be understood in France, albeit recognised as an English accent. In singing however it is unacceptable. Any decent French or French-English dictionary will have a phonetic transcription of all words. Check it out!
Rayonnais is as I have said here - [rɛ-jɔ-nɛ] not [ra-jɔ-nɛ]. The infinitive of the verb is
rayonner - again, check you dictionary. You will find this for yourself!
Des, tes and mes are all open "e"s as in [dɛ] - I am not sure why you have picked up [dø]. The French word "de"should however sung [dø]. Mind you the pronunciation of des, tes and mes all vary around the country, so you will find disagreement here - again, check you dictionary.
Ton on its own or followed by a consonant is pronounced [tõ]. Followed by a vowel, as in "ton image" the "n" becomes pronounced as a liaison, and in effect becomes the first letter of the next syllable [tõ nimaj]. This allows for a fluid flow of the text, without a hiatus between the two vowels as in [tõ imaj]. This is a fundamental rule of French pronunciation.
Above all, enjoy your French - it is a wonderful language and one that repays curiosity!
C