This one is building up comments fast. I'll probably make a video and verbally address all the comments, that way I can cover them as best as possible. ~Macca
Regardless of the game, the fluff for AOS has nothing on WHFB, and the fluff for Warhammer is my favourite part. It's the reason I play Warhammer over other games, and nothing can remedy the destruction of all the old fluff
I use all my fantasy stuff in Kings of War and 9th Age. I have a small Stormcasts army but they're recasts. I'll play your game you murdered my game to push but I won't give you a single penny towards it. Call me bitter if you want but I have loved WHFB since 1995 so having AOS forced on me after 2 decades and literally thousands of pounds felt like a low blow.
It's a shame that GW Ditched fantasy as I loved the world and the models, The system was a bit over complicated but it was beloved by many, I personally think that they could have still done age of sigmar as a skirmish game like 40ks kill team and brought the new stuff out and still supported fantasy aswell.
I miss the old world. The rule set for Age of Sigmar is now (finally) almost as good as WH40K, it's fun to play and it's gathering a large following. But it's nowhere near the size of what WH40K is.
@@A_B_1917 And yet now they have decided to bring back Warhammer fantasy old world. I don't understand why they would do that when age of sigmar is doing so well?...
@@grantfoster8833 Why did they create Horus Heresy if 40k is doing well? Maybe it's because AoS is big enough that even with some split in player base it will still be doing fine.
One of the main issues with fantacy in later years was the push for bigger armies and bigger units. When i started in 6th edition, units did not get up much bigger than 20, maybe 30 in the case of some armies like the orks and skaven. Later when they reintroduced the % limits for hero, special and rare suddenly you were unable to play with some of the more bigger things until you got to bigger games. Then again I used to only play 1000 point games, easy to carry along with a few options for varianty. It did not feel like this was encouraged in later editions.
It did get mixed views here too, my mate who I used to play 40K with had never really thought about playing fantasy but he has got some AoS miniatures. The store where I used to play loved fantasy and after the release of Sigmar they had like 1 game and said that they weren't going to play it because it was just terrible, they all still play fantasy that I am aware of. One of them that I spoke too was devastated after his massive tomb kings army was pretty much shitted on and another person played Bretonnia which also didn't end well. Overall it is just GW screwing over the older players to get new players involved and I know that it is because of sales (I am unsure but I recall it was something around 2% of fantasy miniatures sold compared to 40K but don't wuote me on that) but they could have executed it a bit better than destroying the world they were based in.
I used to like how I had two distinctly different games to play with fantasy and 40k. I know they aren't the same now, but asthetically when you look accross a board it doesn't "feel" different from 40k. Then I saw the fucking fantasy space marines they released and that cemented the impression I have of Sigmar as just 40k with sticks instead of guns. It may play differently but it won't matter, so much of the hobby is about how it feels and what things look like that I don't think I will be able to get past it. That being said, I did see some stuff about how Sigmar handles armor saves with the whole rending thing, can anyone comment on if they like it or not having played it? On paper I think it could greatly diversify the weapon and armor values of 40k units and add a bit more nuiance to army selection beyond "High strength low shots" and "low strength high shots"
You missed one huge point, THE fucking fact that age of sigmar requires round bases. Which means you would have to rebase your entire army. If you even could do that. I used plastic glue that merges the medel with the base. So I CAN NOT use my army anymore...
My two big issues with the change, killing off the old fluff and changing from a big army game to a skirmish game. The (old) fluff is honestly one of the best fantasy worlds ever created. People lapped that shit up in all the novels, video games, models and board games that Games Workshop allowed to be released. Killing it all off completely to allow for new units in my opinion was a poor choice. I don't even understand where Age of Sigmar takes place, for me there is no world to ground it in and I really cannot be bothered to hear what new fluff justifies new dwarf models for my army. Next we have the fundamental shift from an army game to a skirmish game. Frankly the skirmish side of the market is pretty full at the moment. I have Star Wars Armada, Xwing, Warmachine and Hordes, Imperial Assault, Bolt Action and a multitude of other smaller skirmish games all vying for attention. I don't think Sigmar is able to complete fluff wise with half of these and I also don't think it can compete gameplay wise either. Changing from one market that they dominated (big army games) to one where they had virtually no presence previously (skirmish) was a poor choice and I think will hurt them in the long run. I don't think Sigmar is a bad system but it sure as hell isn't anything special when compared to the competition, especially with the rough launch (slow to release armies, points added in after the fact). People have limited time and budget and right now (in my two local game stores) they are choosing the non Sigmar skirmish games in huge numbers. Finally I think in Australia tournaments are also huge for drawing attention to your game. Cancon is the biggest convention of the year and often it is where most people will get exposed to new games. Seeing an entire hall of 100+ warmachine and hordes players does wonders for driving sales and new players to the game. As far as I know there is nothing planned for Sigmar and almost everyone has shifted to kings of war or 9th age tournaments. How can Sigmar hope to compete if everyone playing it seems to be doing it in private homes? You need store presence and you need it outside of actual GW stores.
I'd argue that it's quite easy to do large scale games, hell I can still fit 200 clanrats into a 1500 point game comfortably with points to spare for leaders and toys
Mate, the fact that Warhammer Fantasy could have played by all 3 ways aswell. On page 132 of the 8th edition ruleset, there is a side note: " In the balance On a slight tangent, its worth mentioning at this stage that your games dont have to be balanced - i.e.. you dont have to have the same number of points on both sides. This is quite unusual, but allows you to tweak your games to enact a last stand by a hopelessly outnumberred defender, a suicidal charge of th `Light Brigade` proportions, or simply impose a handicap on a more experienced player. " Thus the 3 ways to way is good rehash of this rule. I like AoS, because you can have your rules for free and its easier to get in. But other than that WHFB is better. Especially, when Total War: Warhammer sold over a million in what 7-8 months.
They could have had both... Age of Sigmar for the casuals and 9th edition for the old guard, why pull the rug out from under our feet like that? why the bullshit special rules that just made everyone feel uncomfortable? And didn't we already have LotR for those that wanted a more skirmish based fantasy game already? hell even Mordheim could have been a better test (granted I'd not want to see Mordheim be a lab rat but it wouldn't of pissed off nearly as many people.)
they tried saving WHFB few times, each attempt failed. Killing it and doing something new was the only choice from finnancial point of viev, and, letsw be honest, GW must be making money, that's why companies exists- salaries won't pay themselves.
I only played Warhammer fantasy in 8th, learned it with a friend who had the starterset for 8th. Could you tell me what they did to try to save WHFB? Because honestly, i didn't notice much changes or saving attempts.
@@MrGhaundan thats because gw didnt do a damn thing to save WHFB. Its nothing more than an excuse shills use to defend the actions of gw. The end times were the first bit of attention WHFB had gotten in over a decade. Multiple armies were using codexes from two editions ago. GW killed WHFB and did nothing to save it. And then blamed it on the players for not buying enough of their unsupported garbage
Loved 8th. AoS came , tried 4 games, and have yet to desire a fifth. Good on ya if you like it, but to me, it's shit. The rules were literally the least they could do.
Thing is, if you have a decent PC, and you’re a fan of the Old World, you can just play the Total War: Warhammer games now. For much cheaper than it would have been to buy and paint new models every couple of months to a year. I have no reason to keep any of my Tomb Kings stuff (some of which is still on sprues, unbuilt) now. Or, if you still want to use your minis, you can play Age of Kings, which is essentially 9th Edition.
It’s nowhere near the same: for me, TW and the physical WF tabletop fill two very distinct and very desperate parts of entertainment. You can’t sit down and painstakingly make the models, you can’t hunt for different parts, or wait to find the paint you need/borrow one from a friend, you can’t see your army physically on the table and manuever them, you can’t play an in person large scale battle using those miniatures and have a good drink with some folk. TW is brilliant, and I absolutely love it. But the virtual table top is in just about no way a replacement for the majority of physical fans - as far as I can see. A supplement? Certainly. Something which can scratch the itch a little? Of course. But a replacement? Good heavens no. It’ll differ from person to person, but I don’t know a single person who would be happy going to TW as a replacement. It’s very much a supplement for us. That being said, clearly for you, so all power to you pal. Glad it fills your need.
Ah yes because tapping some keys and clicking a mouse is totally the same as moving physical models, rolling dice, and measuring. I love TWWH 2 but cmon man the only things they have in common is the setting and the scale
it´s an older video but fuck it. If the whole thing about people having collected so much fantasy stuff that they where basically set for life, was one of the reasons why fantasy went down, well i have to ask how soon before they have to do something similar with 40k? Once you collected 5000 points or more of a single army, well why on earth would you ever need to buy anything more? Oh that unit is back now is it? Got 5 of those already don´t need any more. So if that was the reason well 40k is up for an end times as well eventually, because the exact same thing will happen to it as happened to Fantasy.
The thing is for me is the idea of "aw we can't have our block formations anymore" there is absolutely nothing to say you can't. I still regularly use my clanrats on square bases and movement trays. It's easy for me to keep that block formation. All that changes is that when you do hit combat, the formation starts to break apart (which if were talking about actual block combat happens anyway). It's so easy to play your old armies like your old armies in Sigmar it's almost a joke.
Except you don't have to change your bases over, and the only tactical nuance that was lost was that cones of vision are no longer a thing. But to say there is no tactics to formations and unit placements is simply untrue
And flank bonuses to charge, morale penalties for enemies behind you, the fact that charging the flank means you are attacking the columns thus reducing the rows in the front combat. The reduced maneuverability when you have to consider pivoting or reforming to change direction. There was a lot more to it than line of sight, and it built into a grander strategy than just hurling blobs of models in whatever fashion you choose. Meaning your tactical movements in the first turns could pay off in the late game in a very satisfying way. Or did you just ignore all of those rules? And yes i know you don't HAVE to change your bases. Its why I actually said people are NOT being bothered by that, but actually being bothered by the loss of aforementioned tactical depth. Which apparently you didn't notice in the game or are we are talking about different games. Warhammer fantasy yeah?
Hitting units in the flanks means your getting more rounds of attacks than they are, resulting in more casualties which subsequently affects their morale, if the have units in the front of the block attacking the flanking units then they are reducing the amount of attacks going to the front unit. And in turn forcing the unit your attacking to have to start spreading their reserve units to both of yours as you need to move to the closest enemy models in pile in. So they still exist, just not in the same way. I also mentioned the greater freedom of movement earlier as a factor. Just because the strategy isn't chucked in your face with a blunt hammer doesn't make it a "grand strategy" most effective strategies comes from a collection of minor plans culminating into a pivotal moment, not a "My deathstar is now in range because I angled it right" It's a simple matter of haters gonna hate, people don't want to see the strategic elements of Sigmar and claim they don't exist. I can say the same about old fantasy which devolved into ranged units and a deathstar. Whichever ranged units beat the enemies deathstar won. Much wow many strats.
It's not about being angry at GW or inferring that one viewpoint is right, it's a fact that they did something kinda right but at the same time did something very wrong.
Yeah, i dont get it. People rebuy things they have all the time, especially when the leap in quality is as big as between some of the early metals and the current plastics.
Love Kings of War. You can use any miniatures you want(cheap Reaper bones to high quality Mierce Miniatures). It's ranks and flanks. Great community. Easy to learn. Clean play. Since you don't remove models you can create Dioramas. So hobby wise it's better. You can use GW miniatures if you have or love them.
I've been playing fantasy battle since I was 6, I'm 20 now, I have 6 different armies and as I got older I understood the elegance, though flawed, of the original game. I gave Age of Sigmar a chance, and it pushed me away immediately. I gave it another chance a year later after they added a point system, still hated it. I didn't mind story being moved forward and possibly the addition of new stuff, but to kill off the game I think was just too big of a change and yes, majority of my group hates AoS and pretty much play only 40k anymore.
My area had a pretty healthly fantasy scene AoS pretty much killed it, they was some hype of the new game at the start but that pretty much died off within a few months.
AoS never really took a hold here. Most guys are still playing 9th age or KoW now. I wish I didn't rage quit back in 2016 and sold everything... I miss my tomb kings.
I'm looking to get into table top gaming and though 40k and AoS sounds like a fun thing things I hear about GW takes that away. So I'm looking at Bolt Action WW2 and perhaps Wild West Exodus.
Bolt Action is fantastic, and I'm personally into A Song of Ice and Fire but it's still only up on Kickstarter and I won't have the minis in my hands until April.
I've been playing with games workshop since heroquest/space crusade. I mainly had fantasy armies except for my craftworld Eldar. Now i only collect Heresy. I agree that gw needed to do something about fantasy not selling compared to the amount of floor space needed. What gw has done with the models I mostly like BUT aos IS a skirmish game, people who say it isn't are being argumentative for the sake of it. Old games of warhammer had 60/70 models a side minimum, how many aos games regularly have anywhere near that? So Why not release aos (skirmish) then release 'aos advanced' (full ranked battles) And why kill the old world &change all the race back grounds? It needed changing to bring new players maybe but they could have done a 'post chaos apocalypse' Old world without destroying all the pre-existing fluff. I think it has to do with copyright personally. All those unique units/army names make it easier for gw to defend their Ip (or viciously attack.. this is gw)
The positives of the Age of Sigmar game that you raise are all good points. The problem is that nothing about the game appealed to the existing fantasy player base. The new sculpts are nice, but you don't want to spend the money on them to create a band / circus of pretty models. So they cut the whole fantasy player base. Why try to reconstruct the game as Age of Sigmar at all then? Why continue with the fantasy genre after pissing off all the players? Surely there must be more profitable ways for them to invest their money or more innovative games and products for them to develop? Put the money into binary options if you have to.
Zandos Dwarf-King aos sucks their setting is shit. there are several various companies who have gained ground. if mantic got their shit together and better sculptures then aos would be screwed
Tl;dr: They were basicly terminators in space, before 5th edition turned them into tomb kings in space. They got another slight revamp in 9th edition, so that all the new models would make sense in the lore, that annoyed a few people too.
+Ryan Barry Actually that's not true. I never played WFB, I'm new to AoS and Warhammer in general and there's lots of people like me, its growth is quite high, a dozen leagues sprung up in my city alone. It's much more popular now than WFB was in my city from what I'm told by veteran players that I've played with. AoS has also been a financial success.
+Hugh Mungus How do you define financial success and growth? Here is GWs 2016 financial report. 19485-presscdn-0-14-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Combined-document-with-front-page.pdf Also, local game shop currently has two.. TWO ...AoS players. I completely acknowledge that my local town game shop is not a global metric. It is not like we had droves of fantasy players before. Maybe 8 or so. But nobody likes AoS here (minus the two remaining players). I will say GAW stock is trading insanely high right now after a loooooong lull.
+Ryan Barry I would define it the same way anyone else would... we all know AoS had a really rocky start and their 2015-16 earnings reflect that but it's almost been an entire fiscal year since then and they've actually been doing much better from what I understand. I also understand that my city isn't the global metric but I've had lots of people from surrounding cities and even GW employees also tell me about similar results regarding AoS at least lately in the past 8 months or so. BoLS does an article on every earnings report they do I believe and their report on the latter of 2016 is positive: www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/01/gw-2016-17-half-year-financials.html P.S: I also understand that going into mid 2017 would include 8'th edition 40K in large part much like 7'th does in these charts as well as things like HeroQuest or Skirmish, (which I still consider AoS for the most part with some exceptions) but AoS appears to show growth from what I've seen and heard personally and read from their 2016-17 earnings.
AoS deserve to die. G-Dub could have revamped WHFB in thousands of ways but preferred to killing it outright, also invalidating 30 plus years of fluff. I could write a novel but what the point as it is done. That move got them a closed wallet, GW lost me as a customer.
I mean, it's not like it was erased like SW Legends for example. It's still canon, simply in the past. It's basically like Horus Heresy, far past, but still real and can still be enjoyed. After all, tabletop games have this slight advantage over online games, that you don't have to listen to developer. After new patch (AoS in this case), you can still play old version (Fantasy) if you find willing people.
I would not have minded age of sigmar IF they had not scrapped the fluff and blown up the world.. simple as that.. (oh and the to simple rules.. but thats another thing). What killed GW for me, period, was the fluff changes.. I liked my old world..
aos isn't necessarily a small scale skirmish game it works as a large game. Fantasy can be played with small armies as well and we have warhammer skirmish for the older players who remember it. You can still play fantasy if you want to and people still use square bases and movement trays.
People can still play Fantasy though, so it’s not like the models are worthless. If people don’t like the change, just keep playing Fantasy. I’m very against Age of Sigmar, and even as a new player I like the larger army size of Fantasy than the skirmish armies of Sigmar. However if there are all these people who still own Fantasy and want to play it they still can, and I know a good number of people who still do. So I don’t see why you would say the models are worthless.
I think there's two things that really have allowed Age of Sigmar to not be entirely dumped by the community; The 9th Age and Total War. The 9th Age provided a place for the old guard that really wanted to play Warhammer 9th Edition.I think there's a good opportunity for that community to grow, but it needs to quickly overcome all of the issues that WFB 8th Ed still had (although, it's fleeced a lot of those problems that belonged to GW). Total War on the other hand has basically saved all of the fluff that AoS dumped as well. Considering that GW knew about the game, its creation may have been what gave the green light to dump the old fluff. Personally, I think it's hypocritical to not buy the game if you say that the fluff mattered.
Yes, but it is also restricted to the computer and via internet games and to the games physics and game mechanics as opposed to setting up on your kitchen table with a mate and drinking beers whilst Predator plays in the background.
age of sigmar saved gw.. sales & stock went so low they had to change something... i really understand how fantasy players feel now that new 40k is out & new handbook 2017.
Age of Sigmar is what got me to finally buy into warhammer even though I've been eyeing it since the second grade. That being said, reducing the price of models by like...half...they'd sell way more. I know I'd be way more willing to pull the trigger.
sigmare is ok without the fantasy blinders with generals handbook thers enough rules and strategy to make it fun to play (its like how they say simplicity creates complexity ) also for the 9th age!
It's a shame that the fantasy battle isn't supported anymore and isn't bringing in new blood, but you can still play fantasy if you want. GW didn't go around burning peoples rule books and scraping their armies into the bin. I doubt people would stop playing 40K if GW moved to only support Kill Team. Same thing with fantasy really. Sigmar is a different game that uses the same miniatures. It hasn't replaced it. It isn't a change of edition. If you like playing fantasy battle, play fantasy battle.
Except when you have playgroups that dont want to. What are you going to do, play with yourself? Wargames require a community. You really think people wouldnt play the game they wanna play instead of complain on forums about its replacement? No, theyre complaining because they literally dont have a game to play anymore
AoS is way better imo, as a new player I can buy what ever I want not feel guilty. All the new models look amazing. Not like shitty swap meet figures half melted
Age of sigmar is the best thing to happen to warhammer. I speak as someone who has been in the hobby since I was 10 (20) now and yet I've never had the ability to play a game with them because the rules to old warhammer are FUCKING CRAZY COMPLICATED yet I LOVED GW miniatures now FINALLY I can actually play a game because the rules make actual sense and I don't have to flip through a 400 page rulebook to find what my magic swords effect is only to realize I have to flip back 259 pages to consult if I charged right, only having to then move forward for 150 pages to see what kind of rank bonus I get only to have to flip back 20 pages to see how the toughness chart rates only to have to go back a further 50 pages to find out how much of a negative to my armor save I get and then flip forward 60 pages to see how it effects demons and then consult my own army book etc. etc. etc.....
I totally agree. I've wanted to get into Warhammer for over a decade, but spending a thousand bucks for an army was just obscene. Now, I can blow 200 bucks on an army and have a solid force.
after staring at miniatures in comic stores for the past 20 years, i now finally play because it was simple enough and accessible enough for me to get into.
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Only 3 years later and they are already talking about Warhammer Fantasy coming back in the form of The Old World.
I love it when GW has to admit they fucked up.
This one is building up comments fast. I'll probably make a video and verbally address all the comments, that way I can cover them as best as possible. ~Macca
Regardless of the game, the fluff for AOS has nothing on WHFB, and the fluff for Warhammer is my favourite part. It's the reason I play Warhammer over other games, and nothing can remedy the destruction of all the old fluff
I use all my fantasy stuff in Kings of War and 9th Age. I have a small Stormcasts army but they're recasts. I'll play your game you murdered my game to push but I won't give you a single penny towards it. Call me bitter if you want but I have loved WHFB since 1995 so having AOS forced on me after 2 decades and literally thousands of pounds felt like a low blow.
It's a shame that GW Ditched fantasy as I loved the world and the models, The system was a bit over complicated but it was beloved by many, I personally think that they could have still done age of sigmar as a skirmish game like 40ks kill team and brought the new stuff out and still supported fantasy aswell.
I miss the old world. The rule set for Age of Sigmar is now (finally) almost as good as WH40K, it's fun to play and it's gathering a large following. But it's nowhere near the size of what WH40K is.
@@davedogge2280
Give it some time. 40k is over 30 years old, AoS is around 3 years old. That's quite a big gap.
@@A_B_1917 And yet now they have decided to bring back Warhammer fantasy old world. I don't understand why they would do that when age of sigmar is doing so well?...
@@grantfoster8833 Why did they create Horus Heresy if 40k is doing well?
Maybe it's because AoS is big enough that even with some split in player base it will still be doing fine.
@@grantfoster8833 Because of total war.
One of the main issues with fantacy in later years was the push for bigger armies and bigger units. When i started in 6th edition, units did not get up much bigger than 20, maybe 30 in the case of some armies like the orks and skaven.
Later when they reintroduced the % limits for hero, special and rare suddenly you were unable to play with some of the more bigger things until you got to bigger games.
Then again I used to only play 1000 point games, easy to carry along with a few options for varianty. It did not feel like this was encouraged in later editions.
It did get mixed views here too, my mate who I used to play 40K with had never really thought about playing fantasy but he has got some AoS miniatures. The store where I used to play loved fantasy and after the release of Sigmar they had like 1 game and said that they weren't going to play it because it was just terrible, they all still play fantasy that I am aware of. One of them that I spoke too was devastated after his massive tomb kings army was pretty much shitted on and another person played Bretonnia which also didn't end well. Overall it is just GW screwing over the older players to get new players involved and I know that it is because of sales (I am unsure but I recall it was something around 2% of fantasy miniatures sold compared to 40K but don't wuote me on that) but they could have executed it a bit better than destroying the world they were based in.
For those who like AoS, good on 'em, but it ain't my cuppa. Good video of a really touchy subject.
I used to like how I had two distinctly different games to play with fantasy and 40k. I know they aren't the same now, but asthetically when you look accross a board it doesn't "feel" different from 40k. Then I saw the fucking fantasy space marines they released and that cemented the impression I have of Sigmar as just 40k with sticks instead of guns. It may play differently but it won't matter, so much of the hobby is about how it feels and what things look like that I don't think I will be able to get past it.
That being said, I did see some stuff about how Sigmar handles armor saves with the whole rending thing, can anyone comment on if they like it or not having played it? On paper I think it could greatly diversify the weapon and armor values of 40k units and add a bit more nuiance to army selection beyond "High strength low shots" and "low strength high shots"
You missed one huge point, THE fucking fact that age of sigmar requires round bases. Which means you would have to rebase your entire army. If you even could do that. I used plastic glue that merges the medel with the base. So I CAN NOT use my army anymore...
After they announced a last codex for 2.0 the same day of Dominion, we are out. Again, we are playing one-page rules. They have a version of WHF.
My two big issues with the change, killing off the old fluff and changing from a big army game to a skirmish game.
The (old) fluff is honestly one of the best fantasy worlds ever created. People lapped that shit up in all the novels, video games, models and board games that Games Workshop allowed to be released. Killing it all off completely to allow for new units in my opinion was a poor choice. I don't even understand where Age of Sigmar takes place, for me there is no world to ground it in and I really cannot be bothered to hear what new fluff justifies new dwarf models for my army.
Next we have the fundamental shift from an army game to a skirmish game. Frankly the skirmish side of the market is pretty full at the moment. I have Star Wars Armada, Xwing, Warmachine and Hordes, Imperial Assault, Bolt Action and a multitude of other smaller skirmish games all vying for attention. I don't think Sigmar is able to complete fluff wise with half of these and I also don't think it can compete gameplay wise either. Changing from one market that they dominated (big army games) to one where they had virtually no presence previously (skirmish) was a poor choice and I think will hurt them in the long run.
I don't think Sigmar is a bad system but it sure as hell isn't anything special when compared to the competition, especially with the rough launch (slow to release armies, points added in after the fact). People have limited time and budget and right now (in my two local game stores) they are choosing the non Sigmar skirmish games in huge numbers.
Finally I think in Australia tournaments are also huge for drawing attention to your game. Cancon is the biggest convention of the year and often it is where most people will get exposed to new games. Seeing an entire hall of 100+ warmachine and hordes players does wonders for driving sales and new players to the game. As far as I know there is nothing planned for Sigmar and almost everyone has shifted to kings of war or 9th age tournaments. How can Sigmar hope to compete if everyone playing it seems to be doing it in private homes? You need store presence and you need it outside of actual GW stores.
Cancon is doing a 2000 point AoS tourny, and have at least 50 players currently lined up.
I'd argue that it's quite easy to do large scale games, hell I can still fit 200 clanrats into a 1500 point game comfortably with points to spare for leaders and toys
I'd buy gw miniatures to play kings of War.
Ah yes, shitmar's sigmarines
Mate, the fact that Warhammer Fantasy could have played by all 3 ways aswell. On page 132 of the 8th edition ruleset, there is a side note:
"
In the balance
On a slight tangent, its worth mentioning at this stage that your games dont have to be balanced - i.e.. you dont have to have the same number of points on both sides. This is quite unusual, but allows you to tweak your games to enact a last stand by a hopelessly outnumberred defender, a suicidal charge of th `Light Brigade` proportions, or simply impose a handicap on a more experienced player.
"
Thus the 3 ways to way is good rehash of this rule. I like AoS, because you can have your rules for free and its easier to get in. But other than that WHFB is better. Especially, when Total War: Warhammer sold over a million in what 7-8 months.
They could have had both... Age of Sigmar for the casuals and 9th edition for the old guard, why pull the rug out from under our feet like that? why the bullshit special rules that just made everyone feel uncomfortable?
And didn't we already have LotR for those that wanted a more skirmish based fantasy game already? hell even Mordheim could have been a better test (granted I'd not want to see Mordheim be a lab rat but it wouldn't of pissed off nearly as many people.)
they tried saving WHFB few times, each attempt failed. Killing it and doing something new was the only choice from finnancial point of viev, and, letsw be honest, GW must be making money, that's why companies exists- salaries won't pay themselves.
I only played Warhammer fantasy in 8th, learned it with a friend who had the starterset for 8th. Could you tell me what they did to try to save WHFB? Because honestly, i didn't notice much changes or saving attempts.
@@MrGhaundan thats because gw didnt do a damn thing to save WHFB. Its nothing more than an excuse shills use to defend the actions of gw. The end times were the first bit of attention WHFB had gotten in over a decade. Multiple armies were using codexes from two editions ago. GW killed WHFB and did nothing to save it. And then blamed it on the players for not buying enough of their unsupported garbage
Loved 8th. AoS came , tried 4 games, and have yet to desire a fifth. Good on ya if you like it, but to me, it's shit. The rules were literally the least they could do.
Thing is, if you have a decent PC, and you’re a fan of the Old World, you can just play the Total War: Warhammer games now. For much cheaper than it would have been to buy and paint new models every couple of months to a year. I have no reason to keep any of my Tomb Kings stuff (some of which is still on sprues, unbuilt) now. Or, if you still want to use your minis, you can play Age of Kings, which is essentially 9th Edition.
It’s nowhere near the same: for me, TW and the physical WF tabletop fill two very distinct and very desperate parts of entertainment.
You can’t sit down and painstakingly make the models, you can’t hunt for different parts, or wait to find the paint you need/borrow one from a friend, you can’t see your army physically on the table and manuever them, you can’t play an in person large scale battle using those miniatures and have a good drink with some folk.
TW is brilliant, and I absolutely love it. But the virtual table top is in just about no way a replacement for the majority of physical fans - as far as I can see.
A supplement? Certainly. Something which can scratch the itch a little? Of course. But a replacement? Good heavens no.
It’ll differ from person to person, but I don’t know a single person who would be happy going to TW as a replacement. It’s very much a supplement for us.
That being said, clearly for you, so all power to you pal. Glad it fills your need.
Ah yes because tapping some keys and clicking a mouse is totally the same as moving physical models, rolling dice, and measuring. I love TWWH 2 but cmon man the only things they have in common is the setting and the scale
it´s an older video but fuck it.
If the whole thing about people having collected so much fantasy stuff that they where basically set for life, was one of the reasons why fantasy went down, well i have to ask how soon before they have to do something similar with 40k?
Once you collected 5000 points or more of a single army, well why on earth would you ever need to buy anything more?
Oh that unit is back now is it? Got 5 of those already don´t need any more.
So if that was the reason well 40k is up for an end times as well eventually, because the exact same thing will happen to it as happened to Fantasy.
The thing is for me is the idea of "aw we can't have our block formations anymore" there is absolutely nothing to say you can't. I still regularly use my clanrats on square bases and movement trays. It's easy for me to keep that block formation. All that changes is that when you do hit combat, the formation starts to break apart (which if were talking about actual block combat happens anyway). It's so easy to play your old armies like your old armies in Sigmar it's almost a joke.
I think people are more bothered about the tacticle nuiance of formations being lost rather than having to change their bases over...
Except you don't have to change your bases over, and the only tactical nuance that was lost was that cones of vision are no longer a thing. But to say there is no tactics to formations and unit placements is simply untrue
And flank bonuses to charge, morale penalties for enemies behind you, the fact that charging the flank means you are attacking the columns thus reducing the rows in the front combat. The reduced maneuverability when you have to consider pivoting or reforming to change direction.
There was a lot more to it than line of sight, and it built into a grander strategy than just hurling blobs of models in whatever fashion you choose. Meaning your tactical movements in the first turns could pay off in the late game in a very satisfying way. Or did you just ignore all of those rules?
And yes i know you don't HAVE to change your bases. Its why I actually said people are NOT being bothered by that, but actually being bothered by the loss of aforementioned tactical depth. Which apparently you didn't notice in the game or are we are talking about different games. Warhammer fantasy yeah?
Hitting units in the flanks means your getting more rounds of attacks than they are, resulting in more casualties which subsequently affects their morale, if the have units in the front of the block attacking the flanking units then they are reducing the amount of attacks going to the front unit. And in turn forcing the unit your attacking to have to start spreading their reserve units to both of yours as you need to move to the closest enemy models in pile in. So they still exist, just not in the same way. I also mentioned the greater freedom of movement earlier as a factor. Just because the strategy isn't chucked in your face with a blunt hammer doesn't make it a "grand strategy" most effective strategies comes from a collection of minor plans culminating into a pivotal moment, not a "My deathstar is now in range because I angled it right"
It's a simple matter of haters gonna hate, people don't want to see the strategic elements of Sigmar and claim they don't exist. I can say the same about old fantasy which devolved into ranged units and a deathstar. Whichever ranged units beat the enemies deathstar won. Much wow many strats.
This tactical things are now gone, replaced by another tactical decisions that wasn't there previously (like combat phase).
Thoughtful vid man cheers
It's not about being angry at GW or inferring that one viewpoint is right, it's a fact that they did something kinda right but at the same time did something very wrong.
Just continue playing an older edition?
Honestly, all they had to fricken do to get sales, update the models....thats literally it!
Yeah, i dont get it. People rebuy things they have all the time, especially when the leap in quality is as big as between some of the early metals and the current plastics.
Love Kings of War. You can use any miniatures you want(cheap Reaper bones to high quality Mierce Miniatures). It's ranks and flanks. Great community. Easy to learn. Clean play. Since you don't remove models you can create Dioramas. So hobby wise it's better. You can use GW miniatures if you have or love them.
I've been playing fantasy battle since I was 6, I'm 20 now, I have 6 different armies and as I got older I understood the elegance, though flawed, of the original game. I gave Age of Sigmar a chance, and it pushed me away immediately. I gave it another chance a year later after they added a point system, still hated it. I didn't mind story being moved forward and possibly the addition of new stuff, but to kill off the game I think was just too big of a change and yes, majority of my group hates AoS and pretty much play only 40k anymore.
Maybe if models weren’t so fucking over priced newly interested people like me would have invested in Warhammer Fantasy.
My area had a pretty healthly fantasy scene AoS pretty much killed it, they was some hype of the new game at the start but that pretty much died off within a few months.
AoS never really took a hold here. Most guys are still playing 9th age or KoW now.
I wish I didn't rage quit back in 2016 and sold everything... I miss my tomb kings.
I'm Happy in the end because of 9th age. When it happened originally i was devo.
I'm looking to get into table top gaming and though 40k and AoS sounds like a fun thing things I hear about GW takes that away.
So I'm looking at Bolt Action WW2 and perhaps Wild West Exodus.
Bolt Action is fantastic, and I'm personally into A Song of Ice and Fire but it's still only up on Kickstarter and I won't have the minis in my hands until April.
I've been playing with games workshop since heroquest/space crusade. I mainly had fantasy armies except for my craftworld Eldar. Now i only collect Heresy.
I agree that gw needed to do something about fantasy not selling compared to the amount of floor space needed. What gw has done with the models I mostly like BUT aos IS a skirmish game, people who say it isn't are being argumentative for the sake of it. Old games of warhammer had 60/70 models a side minimum, how many aos games regularly have anywhere near that?
So Why not release aos (skirmish) then release 'aos advanced' (full ranked battles)
And why kill the old world &change all the race back grounds? It needed changing to bring new players maybe but they could have done a 'post chaos apocalypse' Old world without destroying all the pre-existing fluff.
I think it has to do with copyright personally. All those unique units/army names make it easier for gw to defend their Ip (or viciously attack.. this is gw)
The positives of the Age of Sigmar game that you raise are all good points. The problem is that nothing about the game appealed to the existing fantasy player base. The new sculpts are nice, but you don't want to spend the money on them to create a band / circus of pretty models. So they cut the whole fantasy player base. Why try to reconstruct the game as Age of Sigmar at all then? Why continue with the fantasy genre after pissing off all the players? Surely there must be more profitable ways for them to invest their money or more innovative games and products for them to develop? Put the money into binary options if you have to.
I feel that getting rid of the worst of members of community was (at least partially) their goal.
Zandos Dwarf-King aos sucks their setting is shit. there are several various companies who have gained ground. if mantic got their shit together and better sculptures then aos would be screwed
Wait I've been out of 40k for decades wtf happened to the necrons?!
Tl;dr:
They were basicly terminators in space, before 5th edition turned them into tomb kings in space.
They got another slight revamp in 9th edition, so that all the new models would make sense in the lore, that annoyed a few people too.
For every 'old guard' that quit because of Age of Sigmar, there is a returning player like me who played fantasy back in the day and quit.
No there isnt. you cant argue this anymore. AOS fanbase doesnt even offset the players that left.
good. they weren't fun to stick arround with.
+Ryan Barry Actually that's not true. I never played WFB, I'm new to AoS and Warhammer in general and there's lots of people like me, its growth is quite high, a dozen leagues sprung up in my city alone. It's much more popular now than WFB was in my city from what I'm told by veteran players that I've played with. AoS has also been a financial success.
+Hugh Mungus How do you define financial success and growth? Here is GWs 2016 financial report. 19485-presscdn-0-14-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Combined-document-with-front-page.pdf Also, local game shop currently has two.. TWO ...AoS players. I completely acknowledge that my local town game shop is not a global metric. It is not like we had droves of fantasy players before. Maybe 8 or so. But nobody likes AoS here (minus the two remaining players). I will say GAW stock is trading insanely high right now after a loooooong lull.
+Ryan Barry I would define it the same way anyone else would... we all know AoS had a really rocky start and their 2015-16 earnings reflect that but it's almost been an entire fiscal year since then and they've actually been doing much better from what I understand. I also understand that my city isn't the global metric but I've had lots of people from surrounding cities and even GW employees also tell me about similar results regarding AoS at least lately in the past 8 months or so.
BoLS does an article on every earnings report they do I believe and their report on the latter of 2016 is positive:
www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/01/gw-2016-17-half-year-financials.html
P.S: I also understand that going into mid 2017 would include 8'th edition 40K in large part much like 7'th does in these charts as well as things like HeroQuest or Skirmish, (which I still consider AoS for the most part with some exceptions) but AoS appears to show growth from what I've seen and heard personally and read from their 2016-17 earnings.
I'm am gonna be really honest the price in Belgium is pretty nice. It's 65 euros wich is aroudn the same price off it in pounds so that's nice.
I never saw the problem, I still play old hammer and now also play aos, I think they should have kept it as two seperate game systems
AoS deserve to die. G-Dub could have revamped WHFB in thousands of ways but preferred to killing it outright, also invalidating 30 plus years of fluff. I could write a novel but what the point as it is done. That move got them a closed wallet, GW lost me as a customer.
They tried revamping for a few editions. They failed. They would fail again.
I mean, it's not like it was erased like SW Legends for example. It's still canon, simply in the past. It's basically like Horus Heresy, far past, but still real and can still be enjoyed. After all, tabletop games have this slight advantage over online games, that you don't have to listen to developer. After new patch (AoS in this case), you can still play old version (Fantasy) if you find willing people.
I would not have minded age of sigmar IF they had not scrapped the fluff and blown up the world.. simple as that.. (oh and the to simple rules.. but thats another thing). What killed GW for me, period, was the fluff changes.. I liked my old world..
Exactly i would not acare i they just did new models and round bases :-/
Well...would love to see a follow up after the Old World announcement. Keep em coming, OC!
aos isn't necessarily a small scale skirmish game it works as a large game. Fantasy can be played with small armies as well and we have warhammer skirmish for the older players who remember it. You can still play fantasy if you want to and people still use square bases and movement trays.
9th age is actually a really good game but they balance it based in the European meta
Ill never forgive gw for this, and i never played anything but 40k.
People can still play Fantasy though, so it’s not like the models are worthless. If people don’t like the change, just keep playing Fantasy. I’m very against Age of Sigmar, and even as a new player I like the larger army size of Fantasy than the skirmish armies of Sigmar. However if there are all these people who still own Fantasy and want to play it they still can, and I know a good number of people who still do. So I don’t see why you would say the models are worthless.
Except when nobody in the area plays fantasy and unless you wanna set two armies up yourself, youre not getting a game. Games require communities
World of tanks has done, for better, and then for worse. So much down hill, such little braking surface left to slow down.
Age of Sigma's lore sucks hard. I don't want it anywhere near me
I think there's two things that really have allowed Age of Sigmar to not be entirely dumped by the community; The 9th Age and Total War.
The 9th Age provided a place for the old guard that really wanted to play Warhammer 9th Edition.I think there's a good opportunity for that community to grow, but it needs to quickly overcome all of the issues that WFB 8th Ed still had (although, it's fleeced a lot of those problems that belonged to GW).
Total War on the other hand has basically saved all of the fluff that AoS dumped as well. Considering that GW knew about the game, its creation may have been what gave the green light to dump the old fluff. Personally, I think it's hypocritical to not buy the game if you say that the fluff mattered.
Basically, both allow you to play the elements of the old world you enjoyed back before the upheaval
Yes, but it is also restricted to the computer and via internet games and to the games physics and game mechanics as opposed to setting up on your kitchen table with a mate and drinking beers whilst Predator plays in the background.
Age of Sigmar has bad lore, why would I even try it?
age of sigmar saved gw.. sales & stock went so low they had to change something... i really understand how fantasy players feel now that new 40k is out & new handbook 2017.
Age of sigmar sucks!
Ill stick with 8th edition, Age of sigmar rules and lore is sucky sucky.
Age of Crapmar suuuuuuuuucks
I play Warhammer Renaissance. Don't need GW.
Age of Sigmar is what got me to finally buy into warhammer even though I've been eyeing it since the second grade. That being said, reducing the price of models by like...half...they'd sell way more. I know I'd be way more willing to pull the trigger.
It's a shame too... I was about to sell my house to buy 12 huge fantasy armies and live in the giant box they were shipped in until sigmar dropped
sigmare is ok without the fantasy blinders with generals handbook thers enough rules and strategy to make it fun to play (its like how they say simplicity creates complexity ) also for the 9th age!
It's a shame that the fantasy battle isn't supported anymore and isn't bringing in new blood, but you can still play fantasy if you want. GW didn't go around burning peoples rule books and scraping their armies into the bin. I doubt people would stop playing 40K if GW moved to only support Kill Team. Same thing with fantasy really. Sigmar is a different game that uses the same miniatures. It hasn't replaced it. It isn't a change of edition. If you like playing fantasy battle, play fantasy battle.
Except when you have playgroups that dont want to. What are you going to do, play with yourself? Wargames require a community. You really think people wouldnt play the game they wanna play instead of complain on forums about its replacement? No, theyre complaining because they literally dont have a game to play anymore
AoS is way better imo, as a new player I can buy what ever I want not feel guilty. All the new models look amazing. Not like shitty swap meet figures half melted
Age of sigmar is the best thing to happen to warhammer. I speak as someone who has been in the hobby since I was 10 (20) now and yet I've never had the ability to play a game with them because the rules to old warhammer are FUCKING CRAZY COMPLICATED yet I LOVED GW miniatures now FINALLY I can actually play a game because the rules make actual sense and I don't have to flip through a 400 page rulebook to find what my magic swords effect is only to realize I have to flip back 259 pages to consult if I charged right, only having to then move forward for 150 pages to see what kind of rank bonus I get only to have to flip back 20 pages to see how the toughness chart rates only to have to go back a further 50 pages to find out how much of a negative to my armor save I get and then flip forward 60 pages to see how it effects demons and then consult my own army book etc. etc. etc.....
I totally agree. I've wanted to get into Warhammer for over a decade, but spending a thousand bucks for an army was just obscene. Now, I can blow 200 bucks on an army and have a solid force.
after staring at miniatures in comic stores for the past 20 years, i now finally play because it was simple enough and accessible enough for me to get into.
holy fuck
Maybe you guys should stop eating crayons and invest some time in the hobby freaking casuals you are ruining the good old fantasy with your bullshit.