Great stream! Thanks for putting this together. This can serve as a benchmark as to how far each model has progressed. Both have issues, but both are enjoyable to fly.
Thanks for the video. I took off in the Zibo at the weekend and I realised that I had no duct pressure (and no differential pressure). While being indecisive about that I then got double (I think) engine fires. It was dark, the autopilot disconnected and I wasn't prepared (hence coming back to this video...). I think I'd accidentally set the Engine Start Control switches to GRD instead of CONT. Presumably that would account for the loss of duct pressure, not sure if it would cause engine fires or not.
We have to remember the mod is free that's why many people will prefer it to paying 50 pound for a pmdg I absolutely adore xplane 12 and msfs and find good and bad in both great stream 😊
Hey FD2S, nice stream there! Regarding taxi on the rudder trim, you're probably using the option to use your rudder as Nose Wheel Steering controller exclusively. That'll link your rudder pedals exclusively to the nose wheel, so when you trim the rudder you'll end up trimming the nose wheel. The reason you don't notice this in the full flight sim is since the effect of the rudder trim on the limited nose wheel steering we have available in the real plane combined with those 5 units of trim *AND* the bad taxi model of the full flight sim simply cancels out the effect. You can try it in the real plane however: Trim the rudder full into one direction. You *will* see it turn slightly into that direction according the effect the associated pedal steering would have.
Obviously this is not something one would normally do flying a 737. This is the kind of stuff you're checking when you're advising a developer where *any* normal pilot would look strange at you when you ask them if they mind if you tried this.
Why hello there 737NG Driver! Thanks for the input! Ah now that is interesting... I did give it some thought and wondered if you whacked in 15 units if it would have any impact on NWS. Indeed, it’s not something I would ever want to replicate, I’d be on the next plane to HQ to have tea and biscuits. I might invest in an independent tiller for the PMDG 737 to cater for this. Certainly 4-5 unit’s rudder trim has no noticeable in the Full Motion Level D, I’ve done and seen enough single engine landings with 4-5 units still in and no discernible turn towards the direction the rudder is trimmed to, not at least with what I experienced in the PMDG 737 where I could steer it! Whilst you’re here Re pitch trim, are you satisfied it’s effective enough? I can hold down the stab trim for 10-15 seconds and there is only the slightest change of your pitch with no input on the control column. Looks like the trim wheel is spinning at the expected rate but as you well know, this amount of pitch trim change in the real aircraft is going to see an extreme change in your flight path or significant pitch inputs to maintain the desired flight path. Regardless, still very impressed with the PMDG 737, it has improved significantly since release. I do hope one day you try out the MOD though! All the best 😊
@@flightdeck2sim The reason why it was more effective in the PMDG than you would expect from the full flight sim is because you're probably using the rudder pedal only steering option. If you use that the NWS is fully linked to the rudder - and that includes rudder trim. You can technically not decouple the two in MSFS, if you go for a rudder NWS the two will be fully linked. Re Pitch Trim, that's a hard one. I would actually say I am satisfied with it. Obviously with the MSFS turbulence and the entire trimming model in the sim being quite, well, broken, it's hard to say what's 100% accurate and what's not. But here's my approach: The Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke has something like 30% of the range of travel of the 737s yoke. Thus trimming to reduce the control column forces will also take longer when you compare the distrance travelled of the thrustmaster to the real one. What I therefore do is to look at the control column in the VC. Deflect that a couple centimeters and trim it out. That seems to get quite close to the real one. However the movement on the joystick will feel wrong to us because it's less than the real plane. That creates the impression of the trim being too slow.
RE Stabiliser effectiveness I’d say the issue is more related to the PMDG 737 than MSFS. Taking the peripheral out the equation, if I make absolutely no input in pitch on either my TCA yoke, sidestick or backup joystick and only trim (flaps up) there is an insufficient change in pitch. The wheel seems to be moving at the correct rate but after 10-15 seconds there is only a slight change in your attitude/rate of climb and descent, Other aircraft in MSFS seem to be fine or as I’d expect. FD2S FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim I kinda like the slow trim. I only have a asimple switch to set the trim, and if it's too fast I have to keep adjusting it as it overshoots the correct setting, as is the case in some planes. At this slow pace it's pretty easy to get it just right. But it could be a bit faster perhaps :)
I just bought the boeing TCA Boeing Yoke and I feel like the PMDG feels so uncontrollable on takeoff for me, especially the rudders. Landing is better for me. Even if I didn't watch the stream and only a few minutes, this seems like it was a great vid :D
Rudder + Tiller or Rudder alone? I found out that having Rudder only is not realistic, it keeps the tiller reactivity even at higher speed. Setting Rudder + Tiller is much more realistic because the 2 have different impacts on the ground even in real life.
It's not the auto-trim/speed trim system, that has been fixed. The issues is manual trim when hand flying, it's too ineffective and always has been. I don't think the speed is the issue but the actual change in pitch is negligible with trim changes in the PMDG 737. In the real aircraft if you were to trim for 5 seconds there would be a significant change in pitch. As I demonstrated in the PMDG 737 I could hold it for 10-15 seconds, make no input on the control column and pretty much nothing happened. Without making any input on the control column you'd be doing 6000fpm in the respective direction you trimmed. (Try it in the ZIBO MOD, that's what should be happening!) FD2S
Pesonally, I prefer the Zibo by a large margin. Because: Wingflex is better, EFB is better, flight physics are better, taxi is lightyears better, Cabin atmosphere with chatter is better, sound is better. PMDG has slightly better graphics maybe but the difference is so small that I don't care. Zibo wins for me hands down. In the PMDG I feel like sitting in a toy plane.
There are pro's and cons to both, I will always have a soft spot for the MOD, pretty much for all the reasons you pointed out! Needs a bit more work in XP12 but you missed out the most important part, it's absolutely free! FD2S
PMDG should probably feel a bit ashamed of themselves for charging $70 for an add-on that is arguably a poorer representation of the real thing than a free mod.
So the TCA yoke gear function is based of the 787 and while it works perfectly in xplane, in msfs it seems to struggle for the pmdg 737 you have an off position which you are obviously aware of that the yoke doesn't have this position. The gear lever works as a button and is constantly sending a signal to msfs so if you select the off position msfs will put the gear back up because its still receiving an input. Additionally if you try and tweak the keybinds for the gear it messes up the gear logic, and if you try to manually rebind the gear it will not work, so you will have to reset your yoke keybinds to default get a functional gear and ensure that in this profile you don't try and rebind the gear. This new profile you will be able use gear up or down, no problem just you won't be able to turn the gear off, but honestly I rather have a function gear lever than the added realism of an off position. However, if you want the added realism then just you "G". Hope this helps, Sam!
Theres no reference in the OEI NNC that states that both ENGINE START switches should be in continuous when engine anti-icing is being used. Have you got a reference for that please? Thank you.
Nice vid. I think it needs reiterating that the zibo is freeware. For the price of the pmdg you could buy xp12 and have an awesome 737 and a whole new sim.
Thanks Alan! For a CAT I ILS or Non Precision Approach use BARO MINS. The minima on these approach are based off altitude (MDA or DA) For CAT II/III where you’re planning an Autoland use RADIO MINS. The minima for these approaches are based on height (DH) Add +40ft to any MDA to ensure you do not fly below it in the event of a go around. Good Luck!
Pretty certain JAL should fly a special routing. Let you advertise privately, tickets sold as a premium obviously. The flight operates as Alpaca, and the coms are open for the passengers to enjoy during the flight. Passengers board early, the flight starts with the stream entry music, and we can all enjoy following along on the charts from our seats haha.
hi new here, why is there no engine surge in pmdg and why there are some difference in warnings and bells triggered, beetween the two which one is the more accurate to real life ?
Hi Christian, PMDG has a more comprehensive failure system but the MOD has some options the PMDG doesn't like engine surge. The bells/warning were both pretty much identical, it's just the nature and timing of the two failures between the two sims. FD2S
Since he's already a real world 737 pilot, not much need. He's been working quite a lot and has built a ton of time in his real logbook flying the real thing.
@@Sim737PilotFair enough, but if it’s possible to get extra training hours, having a descent setup maybe worthwhile. @Heli Mech maybe took it a bit much though. I know that if I were in that profession I would certainly go down that route to some degree. As it is I don’t even have my PPL and I want to build a fairly realistic setup.
@@sebread7047 I don't think that is necessarily true, RealSimGear has FAA approved systems, that you can use on a standard desk and I guarantee are reasonably priced compared to the price of a real plane...definitely don't cost $10 million. Anyway, not trying to start an argument, just asking what I thought was a simple question.
![[MSFS vs XP12] Thoughts after the six flights I did](/img/n.gif)
What a professional. I do hope one day whenever I am a passenger on an aircraft I get to be on one of your flights.
Thanks for the kind words! Rest assured all flight crew are trained to deal with the most unlikely situations!
FD2S
Great stream! Thanks for putting this together. This can serve as a benchmark as to how far each model has progressed. Both have issues, but both are enjoyable to fly.
Thanks for the video. I took off in the Zibo at the weekend and I realised that I had no duct pressure (and no differential pressure). While being indecisive about that I then got double (I think) engine fires. It was dark, the autopilot disconnected and I wasn't prepared (hence coming back to this video...). I think I'd accidentally set the Engine Start Control switches to GRD instead of CONT. Presumably that would account for the loss of duct pressure, not sure if it would cause engine fires or not.
This was awesome and very informative! Makes me want to try some of these drills in the Zibo.
We have to remember the mod is free that's why many people will prefer it to paying 50 pound for a pmdg I absolutely adore xplane 12 and msfs and find good and bad in both great stream 😊
Hey FD2S, nice stream there!
Regarding taxi on the rudder trim, you're probably using the option to use your rudder as Nose Wheel Steering controller exclusively.
That'll link your rudder pedals exclusively to the nose wheel, so when you trim the rudder you'll end up trimming the nose wheel.
The reason you don't notice this in the full flight sim is since the effect of the rudder trim on the limited nose wheel steering we have available in the real plane combined with those 5 units of trim *AND* the bad taxi model of the full flight sim simply cancels out the effect.
You can try it in the real plane however: Trim the rudder full into one direction. You *will* see it turn slightly into that direction according the effect the associated pedal steering would have.
Obviously this is not something one would normally do flying a 737. This is the kind of stuff you're checking when you're advising a developer where *any* normal pilot would look strange at you when you ask them if they mind if you tried this.
Why hello there 737NG Driver!
Thanks for the input! Ah now that is interesting... I did give it some thought and wondered if you whacked in 15 units if it would have any impact on NWS. Indeed, it’s not something I would ever want to replicate, I’d be on the next plane to HQ to have tea and biscuits. I might invest in an independent tiller for the PMDG 737 to cater for this.
Certainly 4-5 unit’s rudder trim has no noticeable in the Full Motion Level D, I’ve done and seen enough single engine landings with 4-5 units still in and no discernible turn towards the direction the rudder is trimmed to, not at least with what I experienced in the PMDG 737 where I could steer it!
Whilst you’re here Re pitch trim, are you satisfied it’s effective enough? I can hold down the stab trim for 10-15 seconds and there is only the slightest change of your pitch with no input on the control column. Looks like the trim wheel is spinning at the expected rate but as you well know, this amount of pitch trim change in the real aircraft is going to see an extreme change in your flight path or significant pitch inputs to maintain the desired flight path.
Regardless, still very impressed with the PMDG 737, it has improved significantly since release. I do hope one day you try out the MOD though!
All the best 😊
@@flightdeck2sim The reason why it was more effective in the PMDG than you would expect from the full flight sim is because you're probably using the rudder pedal only steering option. If you use that the NWS is fully linked to the rudder - and that includes rudder trim. You can technically not decouple the two in MSFS, if you go for a rudder NWS the two will be fully linked.
Re Pitch Trim, that's a hard one. I would actually say I am satisfied with it. Obviously with the MSFS turbulence and the entire trimming model in the sim being quite, well, broken, it's hard to say what's 100% accurate and what's not.
But here's my approach: The Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke has something like 30% of the range of travel of the 737s yoke. Thus trimming to reduce the control column forces will also take longer when you compare the distrance travelled of the thrustmaster to the real one.
What I therefore do is to look at the control column in the VC. Deflect that a couple centimeters and trim it out. That seems to get quite close to the real one. However the movement on the joystick will feel wrong to us because it's less than the real plane. That creates the impression of the trim being too slow.
RE Stabiliser effectiveness I’d say the issue is more related to the PMDG 737 than MSFS. Taking the peripheral out the equation, if I make absolutely no input in pitch on either my TCA yoke, sidestick or backup joystick and only trim (flaps up) there is an insufficient change in pitch. The wheel seems to be moving at the correct rate but after 10-15 seconds there is only a slight change in your attitude/rate of climb and descent, Other aircraft in MSFS seem to be fine or as I’d expect.
FD2S
FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim I kinda like the slow trim. I only have a asimple switch to set the trim, and if it's too fast I have to keep adjusting it as it overshoots the correct setting, as is the case in some planes. At this slow pace it's pretty easy to get it just right. But it could be a bit faster perhaps :)
I just bought the boeing TCA Boeing Yoke and I feel like the PMDG feels so uncontrollable on takeoff for me, especially the rudders. Landing is better for me. Even if I didn't watch the stream and only a few minutes, this seems like it was a great vid :D
Rudder + Tiller or Rudder alone? I found out that having Rudder only is not realistic, it keeps the tiller reactivity even at higher speed. Setting Rudder + Tiller is much more realistic because the 2 have different impacts on the ground even in real life.
@@jeluna I use rudder pedals so I guess it's set to Rudder only and tiller as seperate. I have joystick I use for the tiller
@@SHOVEIT Double check in the PMDG settings that you actually have Rudder+Tiller
@@jeluna It was set to Rudder Only, I've set it to Tiller + Rudder now. That's correct?
@@SHOVEIT yeah perfect! Try it now on takeoff and landing it should be better
@flightdeck2sim PMDG didn't connect the Rudder and Nose Wheel, ASOBO did, a while back. It's not a bug, it's a "feature."
Ah got you..... 😄
I can't believe something as fundamental as auto-trim is still so buggy this long after release. Do PMDG not watch your streams? They really should.
It's not the auto-trim/speed trim system, that has been fixed. The issues is manual trim when hand flying, it's too ineffective and always has been. I don't think the speed is the issue but the actual change in pitch is negligible with trim changes in the PMDG 737.
In the real aircraft if you were to trim for 5 seconds there would be a significant change in pitch. As I demonstrated in the PMDG 737 I could hold it for 10-15 seconds, make no input on the control column and pretty much nothing happened. Without making any input on the control column you'd be doing 6000fpm in the respective direction you trimmed. (Try it in the ZIBO MOD, that's what should be happening!)
FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim na not true. I have over 100 hours on the default FSX 737 and with that experience under my belt I can say you’re wrong.
Pesonally, I prefer the Zibo by a large margin. Because: Wingflex is better, EFB is better, flight physics are better, taxi is lightyears better, Cabin atmosphere with chatter is better, sound is better. PMDG has slightly better graphics maybe but the difference is so small that I don't care. Zibo wins for me hands down. In the PMDG I feel like sitting in a toy plane.
There are pro's and cons to both, I will always have a soft spot for the MOD, pretty much for all the reasons you pointed out! Needs a bit more work in XP12 but you missed out the most important part, it's absolutely free!
FD2S
@@flightdeck2sim You are right, the price. 0 € and virtually every aspect better than PMDG.
PMDG should probably feel a bit ashamed of themselves for charging $70 for an add-on that is arguably a poorer representation of the real thing than a free mod.
So the TCA yoke gear function is based of the 787 and while it works perfectly in xplane, in msfs it seems to struggle for the pmdg 737 you have an off position which you are obviously aware of that the yoke doesn't have this position. The gear lever works as a button and is constantly sending a signal to msfs so if you select the off position msfs will put the gear back up because its still receiving an input. Additionally if you try and tweak the keybinds for the gear it messes up the gear logic, and if you try to manually rebind the gear it will not work, so you will have to reset your yoke keybinds to default get a functional gear and ensure that in this profile you don't try and rebind the gear. This new profile you will be able use gear up or down, no problem just you won't be able to turn the gear off, but honestly I rather have a function gear lever than the added realism of an off position. However, if you want the added realism then just you "G". Hope this helps, Sam!
Theres no reference in the OEI NNC that states that both ENGINE START switches should be in continuous when engine anti-icing is being used. Have you got a reference for that please? Thank you.
Do you prefer one sim over the other and do you recommend the Thrustmaster Boeing yoke?
Gear always comes up in the PMDG with the Honeycomb Flight Controls 🤣
So cool to watch. Awesome.
Thanks buddy! Glad you enjoyed it! FD2S
When I saw the stream, without watching it, I was pretty much sure of the winner (Zibo) and the guilty (PMDG) between the 2! 😀
For me, Zibo is the clear winner too
Nice vid. I think it needs reiterating that the zibo is freeware. For the price of the pmdg you could buy xp12 and have an awesome 737 and a whole new sim.
same thing can be said for msfs and flybywire 🤷🏻♂️
@@masflow09 100%. same reason I’d never spend $100 on a toliss.
Is the mod handing better in XP11 than in XP12? Nice video!!
Yes, but there fixing the issues
I loved this stream! Can you tell me about DH and MDA? When do you add 40ft? What type of approaches?
Thanks Alan!
For a CAT I ILS or Non Precision Approach use BARO MINS. The minima on these approach are based off altitude (MDA or DA)
For CAT II/III where you’re planning an Autoland use RADIO MINS. The minima for these approaches are based on height (DH)
Add +40ft to any MDA to ensure you do not fly below it in the event of a go around.
Good Luck!
For those that are wondering, he did press TOGA.
Fixed in the latest ZIBO update.
FD2S
Pretty certain JAL should fly a special routing. Let you advertise privately, tickets sold as a premium obviously.
The flight operates as Alpaca, and the coms are open for the passengers to enjoy during the flight. Passengers board early, the flight starts with the stream entry music, and we can all enjoy following along on the charts from our seats haha.
hi new here, why is there no engine surge in pmdg and why there are some difference in warnings and bells triggered, beetween the two which one is the more accurate to real life ?
Hi Christian,
PMDG has a more comprehensive failure system but the MOD has some options the PMDG doesn't like engine surge. The bells/warning were both pretty much identical, it's just the nature and timing of the two failures between the two sims.
FD2S
Are you able to log sim times with your setup, or is it merely for entertainment purposes.
Since he's already a real world 737 pilot, not much need. He's been working quite a lot and has built a ton of time in his real logbook flying the real thing.
@@Sim737PilotFair enough, but if it’s possible to get extra training hours, having a descent setup maybe worthwhile. @Heli Mech maybe took it a bit much though. I know that if I were in that profession I would certainly go down that route to some degree. As it is I don’t even have my PPL and I want to build a fairly realistic setup.
@@TuxWing Never going to get loggable sim hours on a home setup. Unless you have a spare 10 million and a big front room.
@@sebread7047 I don't think that is necessarily true, RealSimGear has FAA approved systems, that you can use on a standard desk and I guarantee are reasonably priced compared to the price of a real plane...definitely don't cost $10 million.
Anyway, not trying to start an argument, just asking what I thought was a simple question.
why cant pmdg autopilot logic behave correctly for single engine?
No idea, seems to really struggle managing turns.
FD2S
Shocked at Pmdg Bug
Which one??