Mini-Ex Disaster Averted! A Downhill & Out-of-Control Machine(Design flaw - NOT malfunction)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ย. 2023
- Note to viewer: The distributor has assured me in writing that they've "since upgraded (the) machine so they have a brake valve" to prevent a situation like this from reoccurring. I've also been assured that drive motors with the appropriate brake valve will be provided to replace the current units. (2024-01-19)
It’s the questions we don’t ask that get us into trouble.
Safety Alert: On a machine with no traditional braking system - there needs to be severe warnings to prevent anyone else from getting into this situation.
How to use an excavator on steep slopes: www.hbxgdozer.com/news/how-to...
Abrupt motion flings operator: • Fat guy flung on Chine...
How to come down a hill: • How to Come Down a Hill - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
The best thing about this video is that you are standing in your shed telling us of your experience, rather than trying to film yourself lying underneath an upturned excavator. I had a similar incident with the 1.2 machine I had but when I told the importer he wouldn't believe me. Hard to understand how you can lock your hydraulics but still drive the machine. There's a lot to be said for 'One man, one machine.' Stay safe Howard and keep posting because we need your knowledge. Cheers.
Love it - "one man/one machine". I'm just so grateful that I Coral or one of the kids that had experience previously operating the Cat mini on that slope were not the ones that took the Chinese mini-ex up there for it's inaugural trek up to do slope work.
Excellent video that could save lives. Thanks!
You're welcome! Thanks for tuning in.
Problem solved and the "after-the-fix' video is in the works.
I've been driving my 1 ton mini up ramps into my dump trailer and then backing it back down. I guess i won't ever be attempting to turn it around and drive out forward. Yikes. Glad you're ok, and GLAD you have posted this experience. Potentially life saving information.
Thanks for checking viewing and commenting!
Yeah - it could have ended badly. I've got a potential solution that will be implemented in February. Stay tuned.
Happy excavating.
PS - You raise a good point. Not sure that mine would not freewheel backwards tho. Apparently it's all in the drive motor design. Your unit might be fine.
I know an experienced and reputable dealer near me who will only sell units with the drive motor holdback feature. Respect.
Hey Howard! Great video. Always great to see others doing what I like doing as well. Hope all is well with you and Happy New Year!
Hey! Sandy - you've seen the videos of the F350 and camper and I'm hoping to point it in your direction sometime this summer. Would love to learn more about what you're doing.
I'm 68 and FINALLY retired, and just want to thank you for your inspiration over 2023. Connecting with folks like you fulfils one of my two top hopes for my TH-cam channel (the other one to share out with 7 kids and grandkids what I really do with my day - haha).
Happy New Year!
Thank you for this video. I have a Chinese HT10 on order and have been furiously watching videos to learn safe operation. My land has lots of slopes, so this is very relevant. I have a healthy fear of this machine and slopes... which is good.
Totally agree! Fear is a good thing when operating equipment.
Thanks for tuning in. Looking forward to seeing how your unit works out. All the very best!
Did you receive it yet? How does it handle slopes?
@@darekgajda248 Yes, I've had it a few months. You have to be very careful on slopes. Make sure to keep tracks pointed up/down slope. Blade on the down side of the slope. Sometime I use the boom uphill to counter weight, sometimes boom downhill to help push uphill
Great advice !
Thanks for tuning in and being part of the adventure.
Howard..... I'm so grateful that you are safe and sale! This is great sharing, especially for so many of us who do not have that level of experience.
I'm sure you heard your father's words echoing in your head!
I remain very grateful to him. A master of preparedness. He used to comment that there are very few accidents, just folks that were not prepared for the worst.
I think you should have titled this "How a Chinese Mini-Excavator almost k!lled me!"
Yes that's more click-bait, but the message need to be heard by other people. The manufacturer also needs to be named and shamed so that they can at a minimum put a warning label "down hill freefall, use blade and bucket to slow"
Haha - for sure - it was very tempting.
And you are absolutely correct - there should be a warning label. The manufacturer is apparently well aware of the issue.
Howard, great video. I’ve got a 1.5 ton machine on order and I’ve really enjoyed your content around these Chinese mini excavators
I think it's going to do everything we need around here. Dug my first postholes yesterday with the auger. First rate performance.
I would like to see more content during videos of work being done I think it will keep it interesting but great job howard
Ahhhh - thanks for the perspective. I tend to think that folks get bored with seeing the hoe progressing down a trench (recently did 15' feet of trench between 28 and 30" deep and it performed flawlessly). Also breaking through a frozen driveway. Provided photos of the end result but will definitely include more of it actually doing the job.
i am so glad i stumbled upon this post by accident haha. you saved me a lot of heart ache. i've been extra cautious on slight slopes since. as small as this machine is, i've saved hours perhaps days of work as opposed to doing the same landscaping jobs by hand. my uncle who operates a 30-ton was initially doubtful but after an hour of trying it out said it was more than sufficient for my purposes. i didn't understand how he was able to operate this so smoothly but he explained i needed to "finesse" the controls and simply be aware of its limitations. btw i was trying to search for oil and hydraulic fluid change instructions and wondering if you have those on your channel?
Thanks for tuning in and commenting. And yes - the controls do take a little bit of time to correctly finesse . . . I've operated a fair amount of equipment of various makes, models and types from dozer to wheel skidder, articulated loaders and tractors and this little mini-ex certainly has the most sensitive controls I've experienced but it's manageable. So many other positives.
Have had to kinda just figure out the oil change and hydraulic fluid change and other related items. Meaning - no manual came with the machine and the dealer has no manual from the manufacturer.
Good to Know. I was just about to go on a slope and dig with my mini. Your video just saved my life, because unlike you, this would be my first time. For the exception of a small parking lot, my entire property is on a 20-to-30-degree slope.
Thanks for tuning in!
Yeah - just check it out. It appears from viewer comments that some come with drive motors that do have the holdback function and some do not.
One you've ensured that you do have drive motors that do 'holdback', you've got the right machine for the property.
Let me know how it goes.
Howard, I too have property with 20-30% slopes. In your experience if you were on level ground and then drove to the slope and kept going downhill without stopping on the slope, do you think the machine would freewheel on you? Does it seem to happen just when the machine is parked on the slope and you are first heading back down the slope? I have had the freewheeling experience even on my Kubota BX 2380 when it was in 2WD (never when in 4WD) Rode it down for 100-200 feet before I could get it stopped. That never happened on my older BX 1850 in 2WD. Thanks for your valuable information.
@@busman46 Oh man - that ride down the hill on the tractor would have given me a heart attack!
Great question - my sense is that if I moved from level ground to down him - meaning, keeping the drive engaged it would still freewheel - given there is literally no hold-back. But that is pure speculation, so it sounds like your comment has set up a new test for me to run. haha.
Thanks for tuning in and for the question.
You may have covered this, but does it go into freewheel going backwards as well?
It did indeed. Manufacturer provided replacement motors. th-cam.com/video/Y8QOQzucp_A/w-d-xo.html
In other words buy a Takeuchi TB 230😊 Thanks for sharing your experience as it will help others. 👍
Thanks for tuning in . . .
Apparently the new drive motors with holdback feature will be here any day now. Will do an update.
I got thrown out of my mini-ex while driving through a small shallow ditch. As it hit the upward slope, the front blade dug in and the machine stopped suddenly. I was traveling at an angle through the ditch and so I got thrown out the side of the machine. (I didn't have a seatbelt but have since ordered one.) I landed on my back right side. I probably fractured a couple ribs as I had severe pain whenever I coughed over the next several days. Three weeks later, my back is still not 100% but it is getting better. Even a 1mph sudden stop is enough to do damage to a person. (Doesn't help that I am over 60 and overweight!)
Thanks for tuning in and for being part of the conversation.
Your comment about the danger of a sudden stop at low speed could not be more correct. Our bodies are not built for that - regardless of age.
Here's to your complete recovery - and thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the vid ! 😊
I'm looking for a 1.8 ton for my yard, but i actualy have a lot of step slope (20-25%). What do you think of using an mini excavator ? Is is able to climb it ? (Maybe dig a little platform to work stably on it)
Thanks for tuning in and being part of the conversation!
Here's a great little link on the topic. dozr.com/blog/operating-an-excavator-on-a-slope
I previously had a Cat 302.5 (25hp) and operated comfortably on a 20-25 degree slope (Note how the article in the link differentiates between degrees of slope and % of slope).
Within a couple of weeks my new drive motors - with the holdback ability, will be installed and I'll be back up on that slope.
I'd love to hear what you end up with in terms of a mini-ex and how it performs. All the very best.
I am brand new to these machines but plan on buying one myself so thank you for your video.
Question...
Could you have it throttled in reverse to counter the momentum when needed? If there's nothing stopping the free fall forward i would think I could control it by having reverse throttle to counter it?
Is this a possibility?
I took a crack at that later as a test (on a less steep slope) - and should have commented on it. Going from freewheel to engagement is like an on/off switch - i.e. it is like hitting a brick wall. No easing into it.
Meaning - the drive is either engaged or it's not.
Got the replacement motors, so watch for an upcoming video on swapping them out. The dealer special ordered them for me and replaced without charge.
I cannot say enough about Bully Dog (the dealer) for going above and beyond to resolve the issue.
Key takeaway - take great care in selecting your dealer. Check online reviews and references. It's still a bit of a 'wild west'.
Thanks for tuning in and being part of the conversation.
@@howardkettneri will be trying my hand at an auction so no dealer.
Howard that does not seem right! I have a Chinese mini skid steer and when I go down hill and let off the drive stick it stops completely. There should be something that hold back the fluid to stop the machine.
It appears that there is - as with any country's manufacturers, a mixed bag of quality.
My machine is made by Vote Machinery - and was shipped with drive motors that do NOT have the holdback feature. Surprised??
Well - so was I and so was the dealer - but both the manufacturer and the dealer have acknowledged the issue.
The dealer has arranged for the manufacturer to send me replacement motors with the holdback feature.
Big respect to the Dealer (Bully Dog in Vancouver, BC) for their interest and assistance in resolving the issue.
I expect the replacement motors any day now.
Huge thanks for tuning in and being part of the conversation.
Lucky you! Since you didn't have a video for the first go around would you please set up a camera and try it again? I'd really appreciate it.
Your Pal,
Dave
You are definitely clairvoyant Dave. haha
Watch for the recreation coming up this Wednesday if not before! In edit mode on that now.
You should let the excavator run free and see how fast it ca go. Buckle you seat belt first.
Good luck!
@@TheOldManAndTheSaw that is an awesome idea. It could be a new event.
Downhill excavator racing!
I hope they come up with a fix! That would have been scary, particularly if I was in control with no real experience in an excavator.
Yeah - for sure. It was very real. No exaggeration. Hoping the issue is addressed. Will keep the channel posted.
If you put the machine in full forward travel does it hold it self back? Or is it just when it's initially activated? I had a skidder that would do that on steep hills when you Initially hit the steering lever
Howard have you figured out a solution without replacing the entire drive motor? Would love an update video.
Just published the video update earlier today. I did have to replace the entire motor - but the dealer provided that without charge. Check it out. Love that little mini-ex
PS - huge thanks for tuning in. Means a ton to my little channel.
Looking forward to a fix, mine is going to be here in a few days (Freight delivery) and now im about nervous to bring it into my yard! Does it do this on all slopes or just steep slopes?
On a gentle slope like my driveway it's not an issue, but I have slopes that as >10 degrees that I need to navigate safely and while there are a proliferation of tractors and mini-excavators in North America that operate well on steeper slopes because the drivelines and drive motors have a hold-back feature the danger I experienced was because of the complete surprise of this unit dropping into free-wheel mode.
Just got word from the dealer that the fix has been confirmed for February.
I'd say to ask the dealer or the manufacturers rep to confirm whether your driver motors have the holdback feature or not. They should be able to provide a response that you can rely on.
All the very best.
Huge thanks for tuning in to the channel and being part of the conversation.
@@howardkettner wonder if the new feature will be available for us to buy! This has seriously made me nervous, I have seen a few people talk about it but until your story I didn’t put it into perspective if I was in that situation! Wonder if it will entail changing the drive motors?
Well, Howard,what make is this mini excavator?
That's an important reflection on the downhill drive! They dont tell in the ads about this!
Thanks for tuning in and being part of this conversation.
This one is made by Vote Manufacturing www.votemachinery.com/
So much good about this unit. The distributor (Bully Dog) was unaware of the issue until my experience and has been most excellent to work with and has arranged for two replacement motors with the holdback function.
Apparently those are available as an added cost option.
The things that they don't tell you up-front. haha
I may have missed this question, but could you have not just pulled back on the track controls as if you were going to make the machine go backward up the hill? Would that give you a brake action or does the machine loose control if it goes into freewheeling. I have not driven one of these mini x yet but have use some back control on my hydrostatic 35hp tractor on steep hills to hold it in place.
I have had two cousins killed in lawn tractor accidents and a few close calls on my own on hills so you are correct on surprises like this. Would be nice to be able to identify which type of drive motors any machine has before the surprise. Thanks for making the video.
Thanks for tuning in. All great questions - and here's so sorry to hear about your cousins. A lot of folks underestimate the danger associated with the smallest of machines.
The controls are quite jerky. (And perhaps it's just a new machine/new operator thing). I've operated a fair amount of equipment all the way up to 24 ton machines, and more than any other I've struggled to be smooth on the controls with this one.
My reaction - right or wrong was to drop the bucket and blade rather than pull back on the controls which IMO would have jerked it to an instant stop with unknown consequences. Again, I might be entirely wrong, and in the subsequent re-enactment I failed to test for that. Great point tho.
New motors with holdback are expected any day now.
@@howardkettner I was thinking same thing as macbaily. I would have just bumped the sticks back to slow things down assuming I was going straight down the hill. Electric pallet jacks have a similar feature where when you let off the control, they continue on with no brake. It is easy enough to just bump the control in reverse to slow down. Id assume that would have worked but glad you were not injured. Im considering a small excavator and now thinking maybe I better get one with a rops just in case.
Seat belt & a structurally strong cabin can really help avoid disaster under almost all conditions except if becoming submerged as well. Best to foresee upcoming disaster but not always possible.
Problem has now been totally solved by dealer and manufacturer. Just finished a job on a slope that was >20%. No issues.
Thanks for tuning in . . .
Good on you for sharing your experience, who knows it may save someone else’s life. Also, have you ever looked into a Sany excavator? I bought one a year ago, and so far it is on par with the commonly know brands here in the states. They are about 20%-25% cheaper than the name brands. Just an idea, you could sake your excavator to someone who only needs it on flat ground, and get into a Sany that will feel and operate like the caterpillar you used to have…
Thanks for tuning in!
There is a Sany dealer locally and that certainly is an option. I really appreciate your perspective. Definitely great to know.
Just got the replacement motors from the dealer (with holdback feature) and hope to find the time to install them this week. Will do a re-enactment and a follow-up post.
Hopefully I can report "problem solved".
How steep of a hill does this happen? If you go backwards does it still happen?
Forwards or backwards - no drive motor holdback feature . . .
Wow, that would have been really bad if you didn't get the bucket down. I was able to do the same when my first chinese excavator ran away on me. Also i was on a much smaller hill so i probably would have been ok either way, still very scary though. As i mentioned before, let me know if your supplier cant get you the upgraded drive motors.
Huge thanks for your support Wayne. It means a ton. The distributor is saying that they'll have a solution this coming week. Will keep you posted. Enjoy the weekend.
Howard, I have written about this "feature" of the small Chinese excavators on TractorByNet. I have owned my first of three Chinese minis for going on 6 years, and I live in the mountains.
The reason these machines want to free-wheel when going down slopes of even 8% or so, is they use direct-drive hyd motors driving the sprockets. Name-brand minis, even the 1-tonners use planetary final drives, which do not have this problem.
The solution is to install cross-port relief valves at the wheel motors. These are essentially hydraulic brakes. A neighbor near me (San Jose, CA), had one factory (HeChuang) do exactly that for him. I tested it here in the mountains, and it works. I would post a photo, but Utube does not allow it.
As for sloped ground, that is all I have here, and I have over 150h on my XN08, making trails up to 33% slope. That's 4/12 pitch. When descending, I always put blade on the downhill side, and usually the boom uphill. I control my decent by engaging drive levers together and very gradually. Sometimes I drag the blade. On rare occasions, I will drag the bucket on the downhill side as an outrigger. Traction is better with boom/dipper on the uphill side.
I do want them to fix this issue, however. Not a hard or expensive repair. WHEEL BRAKES NEEDED!@@howardkettner
So… I would like a mini excavator to do some landscaping at my small camp (as well as moving a few logs about).
However I am on a hill so this does give me great pause for thought, which is probably no bad thing
The fix is in (in the form of replacement motors) - at no charge I might add. (Best dealer ever).
I'll do another video when I have them installed.
@@howardkettner Thanks for the update. I'm glad there is a fix.
@@howardkettner Objednal jsem si TE-16 od společnosti Toros, což je jako Vote, SDJK aj. .... vše Shandong, Čína, výrobce je ale pouze jeden: HUAYEE.
Mění se jen označení stroje (např. TE-18, VTW-18, JKW-18).
VŠECHNY odkazy výrobců na továrnou jsou shodné, jen se mění logo na továrně - u hlavního vstupu do továrny ve (360° virtual tour) je vždy nápis výrobce HUAYEE (tedy, mimo Vote, který nechce uvézt pravdu).
Ve fotografiích u všech těchto výrobců (Toros, Vote, SDJK) jsou stejní lidé, stroje i místnosti včetně výroby - mění se pouze logo na budově a logo v některých místnostech.
Na dotaz ohledně jízdy z kopce u Toros mi bylo sděleno, že bagr je bezpečný a nebezpečí nehrozí. Odkaz na vaše video s nefunkčním brzděním jsem jim zasílal. Předpokládám tedy, že problém s rozjezdem z kopce byl již odstraněn.
i bought a small chinese mini ex specifically to use on a sloping property and guess what happened to me today... holy cow i just about tipped the thing. I am lucky the hill levelled off after about 20 feet because i am not an experienced operator. Absolutely these should say do not use on a slope.... proper death trap. It would be great to hear if you get a fix for this problem.
You are so correct - they should have a very prominent warning label. Death trap is not an overstatement.
I went back to my dealer/importer (Vancouver, BC) and he's arranged for two replacement drive motors which will arrive later this month.
And, better yet, he's ensuring that all future excavators come with the drive motor holdback.
Apparently it's readily available, but as usual, manufacturers are in a race to the bottom around price, so that is not something that is advertised.
Replacement motors are apparently not expensive, relative to the cost of the machine. About $400 CDN each from what I understand, and less if spec'd pre-manufacturing.
Huge thanks for tuning in and commenting.
perhaps you can make a video about the replacement motors when you get them... as i understand it i have direct drive motors on my machine, which is typical for these type of small generic machines. They look quite easy to replace, so any information on the type or model of motor you are getting would be much appreciated.@@howardkettner
@@jfr55man I will definitely be doing that!
Downside of a budget machine.
Lack of a check valve or something
Thanks for tuning in!
You nailed it. Parts are coming in February for a permanent cure. One of life's (perhaps predictable) little surprises.
Always remember when your ( BUTTOCKS ) get so tight dental floss can't get between them u FIXING to mess up !!!!
Thanks for tuning in!
And that is a very accurate way of capturing the experience of a freewheeling excavator on a slope . . .🤣
Did the drive motors starve for oil or what would make it free wheel ? You sound like you have experience so you also know its best to take steps in getting used to a machine. Those little machines will get you in a worse spot than a bigger hoe every time. Weight is your freind on an excavator or anything else. You probably made a good call deligating the use of that machine to more level ground. Good luck and be safe. I subscribed the other day just to get a more level headed review of the small machines from china.
I'll be doing a couple more videos on other aspects of this little Chinese unit. Really a great little machine. Did 150' of trenching with it yesterday. Great control, breakout capacity and all around power. A real joy to operate.
To answer your question, the oil level was right where it should be.
The preliminary consensus is that the travel motors do not have the hold-back feature - but that there is an economical solution. Once we've confirmed or denied, I'll do another post.
A great reminder that seat belts are there for a reason.
I'm not exactly in the market for a professional or production machine,more of a play toy or pick up some odd jobs with it.curious to see what the solution is to the problem.
Good luck and be safe
@@whistledick From what I'm starting to understand, one needs to take care when placing an order. A thoughtful distributor has the option to add safety features and spec components to North American norms/standards. One cannot assume that an import necessarily includes those.
Back to 'you get what you pay for' in many respects. More to come on this topic in upcoming episodes.
Thanks for being part of what I consider to be an important conversation.
@@howardkettner Seems irresponsible of the importer to sell you a machine without this safety factor. We can talk economical solution all day but your safety operating this machine I would think is pretty important. It would be good to see a follow-up video if this is fixed or you are stuck holding the bag. People watch these videos to learn and see other people's experiences to make good decisions.
@@organic-hi-tech The dealer has been stellar. They were unaware of the issue till I reported it. Apparently their customers do date have been flat-landers.
They immediately contacted the manufacturer who is putting drive motors with holdback on future units and they’ve got two replacement motors on the way for me. #learningexperience
Huge thanks for tuning in and being part of the conversation.