You can just hear it from his voice how well acoustically treated his room is. From experience, too much treatment is not always good, it's good to have a balance a little liveliness from the room makes for things to sound more "breathable".
Agreed, but fwiw it's too much "absorption" is not always good. I'm guessing that's what you meant. I don't want anyone to think too much treatment of any kind is an issue.
Nice work to get that room under some acoustic control. Back in the 70s when I was in the recording studio business I worked in several studios mostly in NYC installing and repairing recording consoles and tape recorders and listened to many different control rooms. There was a design which at the time was referred to as LEDE or Live End Dead End and I wound up building a listening room in my basement made to that concept and also used the same Altec 604 15" coaxial horn speakers that we sold to the recording studios. It was something to behold especially for a home listening room. I have also studied acoustics since then and those same design concepts from the 70s apply today. I would like to make a couple of comments on Paul's room. I dont think that the diffusors behind the speakers are doing as much good as he thinks because they would only really be effective at the upper mids and highs which there is little to no energy at those frequencies a they dont propagate towards the back of the speakers like the low frequencies do. I think they would be much better used behind the listening couch at ear level to diffract the mids and highs to lower the early reflections arriving from the back wall to the ears. Also I would keep the couch at least 3 feet from the rear wall to lengthen the time of any reflections to reduce the psychoacoustic impact of any early reflections. I think that the majority of improvement in the front wall is from the stiffening cross members raising the resonant frequencies of that paneling, it would be very easy to test that theory by just removing the diffusors. I would completely tear down that wall and rebuild it from scratch to be solid so it does not vibrate very much at all. The other comment I have is about the side walls. Having a reflective surface on one side and an absorbtive surface on the other side makes for some asymmetry in the frequencies at the listening area. I would instead put some diffusion surfaces on the right side under the window to make it more symmetrical. Oh, one more thing. It would be worth it to replace some or all of the acoustic tiles on the ceiling with fiberglass or rockwool and cover it with burlap like I did or other acoustically transparent material. This would really help with reflections off the ceiling and also deaden the room. You might want to do this in only the front half of the room to keep from it becoming too dead. But pretty nice work so far, just keep it up! 😊👌
Good advice. This is what we need from people who have been in the business for a while. I have seen your good comments else where. Keep up with good advice. You should see peoples super Hi-Fi gadgets. But their rooms sucks acoustically. Just watch Steve's parade from time to time with proud owners with supe-end gear and low-end rooms... They don't need more gear. They need to start using money on acoustic treatment! Up to 50 % of the sound quality starts with the room. My suggestions on this room will be : 1. heavy drapes in combination with more diffusers on front wall. Tearing down the wall would be great, but a bit too much for the owner? 2. I loved the idea of moving the couch forward. Just the same I have done, inch by inch. A long and winding road to get it right. Nearly there now.. My Fortes are way too far out from the front wall compared to the instructions in the manual from Klipsch. They are 90 cm out from the front wall and the couch have been moved forward against the speakers. Looks weird, but it works. It's not a pretty sight for an interior designer though... 3. I am just about to mount absorbing material in the ceiling. Reflections between ceiling and floor is no good. So I support that. 4. See if you can get a thicker carpet as well. People tend to forget about the rug. It's just there isn't? Some people buy really thick carpets and absorbing carpets underneath. ( I do), and get good damping results. You need a carpet anyway, so why don't get thick open carpets for absorption in the first place? Nothing like a good acoustic tweak. It's like gardening, you will never be finished...
Agreed, good advice. 1.) Symmetry As much symetry as possible Left-to-Right with regard to spacing/proximities to anything, and of course treatment materials. What ever is on the left needs to be closely mimicked on the right. 2.) LF damping Adequate bass trapping to approximate even decay across the frequency spectrum. Splitting hairs though because the point is a slow progression toward the ideal ... one at a time addressing the "low hanging fruit" of small room acoustics. Paul from the video is already far ahead of most enthusiasts... Great video.
Absolutely loved this video. Its evident he 's an absolute expert who knows his stuff but he is so personable and down to earth. Even his system is completely relatable. If he ever makes a hifi channel I would watch it.
Given that every room will present different challenges and the only person the room has to sound good to is the listener, I trust that Paul's treatments were what that room needed. It certainly got me thinking about my own listening room (which does double-service as our living room) . . . thanks Paul!
great video, very healthy approach with lots of common sense and knowledge. much better than any room treatment video iv'e ever seen,since he explains in a simple and practical way the problems and the solutions .
Great video. The modesty of his system, combined with intelligent acoustical treatment, was inspirational. I bet it sounds fantastic. I going to build diffusers ASAP.
Good no nonsense approach. I've got back into exploring audio through a strange route. For so long I was happy with what I had, then came a wake-up call. During redecoration last year I moved my setup from the main room of my house to the conservatory. Not looking for better sound, just a place to continue listening. Its a much larger space, but oddly shaped (4 metres by 15 metres) so I never considered it suitable. Its also full of hard surfaces. I set up using of alot of foam padding applied in strips to the walls behind the speakers and on moveable screens behind me, playing across the shorter 4 metre dimension not "firing down the tunnel". Some thick rubber interlocking tiles went over the solid stone floor. Absolutely jawdropping improvement on my old listening environment. Its not going back in the house!
I totally agree with final conclusion. I spent two years in optimising the sound vs room and I made huge advancement and expand my knowladge in the process. I wasn't lazy so I upgrade my power sockets, playong with the postions of the bookshelves (my room is a sqaure ) when I finnaly get the great system. From now on, it will be a lot easier to evaluate the gear...
Hi Paul, I would suggest, if the waiting room is not being utilized, to dismantle the wall in order to expand the room. If the waiting room is in the vicinity of eight feet or so, you will have achieved the golden ratio of 1.61803398875. Don't worry about the structure, it looks like it is not a load bearing wall. A room width of 14'-0" will achieve a perfect length ratio @ 22'-6" thus making the room 22'-6" L x 14'-0" W. I am architect by profession and when we design concert halls we always use the classic "shoe box" design that the oldest and best sounding Orchestra Halls used...
You are correct, that would make a better proportioned room and the standing wave issues would be largely gone. The waiting room area though is my workshop and I have no other area in the house to use for that. I need to build a new house where I can get the listening room and workshop of my dreams. May be a while before that can happen.
Steve you hit a deep one with Paul's video. I've been a huge fan of Sandy Gross for 41 years. It started in 79' with Polk Monitor 10B. Paul obviously work in some capacity for Sandy and moved with him to DefTech. I also own the same DefTech ST-L Paul has in his system. Taming the bass on these is tricky, as they are powered towers (Internal amp for sub-woofer & passive radiator). I'm guessing that Paul has the amp connected to the ST-Ls without an LFE feed to their sub line level input. Great work Paul with taming the bass and accentuating the sound stage with acoustic room treatment. I do have my ST-L receiving an LFE signal, and it too was a challenge to manage the bass, but my listening space is much larger than Paul's and likely made my job easier. Also, besides Acoustic room treatment I used Anthem's ARC. Yeah, I converted to digital room correction. Thank you Paul and Steve for this informative video.
Yes indeed, Sandy and I worked together for many years He hired me at Polk and again at Definitive. A great man and friend. All Audio comes in to the speakers via standard speaker inputs. Up until I added the parasound preamp i did not have LFE to try. Ill give it a try but past experience setting up ST-Ls leads me to believe the speaker in method is better than LFE in two channel systems. . But never say never...so ill give it a try. Forget the theories and just do what works
Greetings Paul. I trust you and your loved ones are safe and doing well. Thank you for sharing your room acoustical treatment process. In regards to my comment on connecting to LFE input, It is actually an additional connection. Your current connection stays as is, you would be adding the LFE feed from your amp into the LFE input (must use Y splitter) of your two ST-Ls. For me it resulted in more depth (I don't mean deeper bass, but rather more tactile bass). It will require re-tweaking your bass gain in the sub section at the rear of the ST-Ls or using the remote. It also will require bass frequency crossover setting to the LFE signal. If your using an integrated amp with a LFE line level output, then it will have rollover low frequency settings. If you are using a separate Pre-amp and amp set up, your pre-amp may not have a separate crossover setting for a sub. I ran my ST-L for almost two years before it was suggested to me to add the LFE signal. Nix the whole thing if there is no way to set a cross over frequency going to LFE line input, you would be doubling the entire feed and the result would be horrible.Thanks again Paul. My best to you and your family.
Thanks for posting! I wouldn't put a diffuser on a door just because it looks uncool. I like Art Dudley's approach to simplicity in the listening room, without a lot of constant thinking about tweaks. Just enjoy the music on top notch equipment with a minimum of tweaks. But every audiophile has a different angle, & part of why the hobby is so entertaining.
It's a nice idea but it doesnt make much sense if you really want to hear what's going on and you spend good money on your system. You will get much more for your money with just a bit of effort and research into basstraps etc. Moving the couch around (they usually don't do much for absorbtion anyway) and thinking bookshelves will help significantly is absolute entry level beginner stuff and a slightly lazy approach. This isn't vague like cable science and other slightly voodoo aspects audiophiles like to spend their money on. This is real world physics that's been thoroughly documented and is very easy to measure. Room treatment just works because that's how nature works.
Sounds like a snake oil dealer told you to shy away from room treatment to sell his stuff. You always need room treatment no matter how much you spent on speakers or electronics.
4" of Owens Corning 703 only absorbs down to 125Hz, but 4" thick absorb very well and evenly down to 125. Ot's a good choice keeping the panels off the wall. They are twice as efficient with an air gap. Those dispersion panels would also only cover a tiny midrange bandwidth. But yet, everything would help a lot.
That is just a fantastic looking room! I love the paneling and built-in shelves. He is lucky to have such a room. The dimensions are ok by me. Almost any dimensions can be worked with unless it is a very odd shape or a round house or something. Paul, you did a well thought out job on treating the room (this is the way to it)! I knew so many folks who would over-treat their rooms and waste money in the process and end up with more problems than they started with. You tested, figured it out and went to the right folks over at GIK. Good company to work with! They are not sloppy (like some other companies I know) and will not over-sell you and will educate you as well. They narrow it all down having you work with one of their acoustical engineers before talking panels and such with you. (Saves a lot of money too) and all that help is for free! (Some places charge to speak with their engineers and then try to sell you a house). I was also surprised to see your gear. Great system by the way! Looks like you gave similar thought to choosing your components. Surprisingly, I also run a Parasound P6, but my amp is a Parasound A23+, which powers a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 v5 towers (Why did Paradigm stop making those?)! As well, I have a Parasound JC3 Jr, which is a giant killer in my opinion, a phenomenal phono pre (the last one I will need to buy, it is solid! I also have the Marantz ND8006. My turntable is a Denon DP-47f with a Ortofon 2M Bronze.
I often ask myself why so many people put diffusers on the front wall if the speaker mid and highs radiate to the other side. For me it makes more sense to put them on the wall behind your ears. I don’t doubt you had a positive experience doing that, just wandering. Congrats on your nice setup!
Carlos, that is exactly my idea also about the diffusers. See my lengthy earlier post. By chance, are you related to a friend of mine from Nevada Eddie Villarreal?
Stewart Markley Will check your post Stewart. Villarreal is a quite common last name in northern Mexico where I,m from, he could be a far relative that I,m nota were of. Cheers
One thing I've found with tower speakers is that they have a very wide dispersion pattern and throw sound behind them and everywhere. So, towers benefit dramatically more from placing panels behind the speakers.
Again ladies and gentleman the biggest component in a system is the room. Something that gets overlooked alot. Helps if you have a dedicated room obviously 😀
@Brandon - Agreed. From what I have witnessed, the "room" gets overlooked about 97% of the time, and small-room acoustics are mis-understood about 98% of the time. just sayin'
Whenever I have a house guest, I ask them if they mind I play with room treatments while they speak...I explain that I want to hear them as accurately as possible. They are befuddled until I convince them that there is a perfect place for their voice to resound in and I think I know where that is...They smile in acknowledgement that I am completely ridiculous and unable to adapt.
I have openings in my walls to another room and a hallway. Gonna take another critical look at my setup. I used the Cardas speaker placement calculator to start with setup, but I feel the room is still letting me down.
@@johnsweda2999 , thanks for asking. Maybe I'm just a typical audiophile trying to squeeze every drop of performance from my system. I got some new speakers ( JBL 4430 clones - DIY) a few months ago and the dynamics are great, but the imaging appears to be inferior to the Magnepan 1.7s. The room has some echo when you clap or cheer (TV is in the same room). I have been known to cover the screen with a blanket and hang sheets to enclose the doorways, and this helps somewhat.
Thanks to everyone who left a comment, especially those with helpful suggestions for further tweaks. I have a feeling I'm not done yet! Happy listening!
Paul, thanks very much for sharing. Even though you are/were "in the business", your room, treatment solutions and system are relatable to the majority of audiophiles that need to work within a budget as well as make do with the room they have available for listening. Your advice to not get carried away with the damping is spot on! It is easy to get carried away with treatments. Before you know it, your music loses its sheen and shimmer. Well done!
Great system with some sensible treatments. Bet it sounds great. It may be worth experimenting with absorbers/diffusers on a stand you can use in addition to the bookshelves and couch. Because they're on stands you can move when not needed. They'll do better with side reflections and improve imaging even more.
Ian Cresswell yes get some wooden Swift Blinds big slats hang in a frame attach at the bottom on the bottom tie with a bungee cord behind the Swiss blind leave an 2 inch gap put some wool fleece behind, go with 3 feet across blinds you have a mixture of diffuser and absorption you can adjust the blind and for the perfect balance
Nice treatment. I have 12" deep cd shelves built-ins behind my speakers filled with cds practically floor to ceiling in a 20x40' living room with the 20' wall behind the speakers. 4'x8' shelves on both sides of the large center window. Then I have sound deadening curtains in front of the shelves and window honeycomb blind. I also stack double the amount of cds on the shelves by using cd crates too so that there are all these nooks and crannies. It seems to help diffuse the sound, plus acoustic panels at reflection points and some bass traps, and soft and hard furniture, rug, blinds curtains, books, etc. I do worry that I made the room sound too dead. When I clap hands I hear the clap period. But prior to doing acoustic treatment I got listener fatigue real fast. Now I can sit and listen for hours and at higher volume levels than before. So the fatigue was getting me at lower volumes before. I couldn't even go up high. Now I can listen at higher volumes and not get fatigued.
sounds perfect to me :D you could add some woodpanels to your basstraps to get some nice reflections. that can sometimes give the room a more pleasant and less laboratory feel.
No, the model I have is the Mythos ST-L, not one of the bipolar models. Contrary to popular belief forward radiating speakers propagate a lot of sound behind them. just walk around a traditional speaker while it is paying - lots of midrange energy back there.
Good video. A normal living room with plenty of trouble acoustics. 95 % of us have rooms like that. 95 % of the audiophiles have high end systems and I think 95 % also have low end acoustics to start off.... The diffusers looks great but I think heavy drapes on the front wall in combination with the diffusers will improve the sound quality even more. Also drapes on the end wall. The drapes should be 0,5 kilo pr.square meter to do a proper absorption of highs and mids. You could look into he possibility for bass traps in the corners up under the ceiling.
Doesn't a shelf filled from end to end with CD's/vinyl just create a new reflecting surface? I'm especially interested in this because i have the same setup: window on one side and shelves of CD's/BD's/books on the other.
Great video Paul, and Thanks for circling back showing us the system. Is the DIY diffuser a random pattern or is it specific? Do you have info on that project?
If you google quadratic diffusor patterns or plans you'll find schematics that show the "tower" length for each position. One note: if you use wood 2x2 lumber is really 1.5 by 1.5 so the resultant panel ends up 18 x 18 inches. I used 2" thick closed cell foam (sold as brand foamular) and cut it with a specialized foam cutting tool. Steep learning curve on that method but i got there eventually after creating a mountain of scrap.
imho, I would have to flip the room and put the system at the other end and the short couch on the door wall. That way there is a center seat at the far end. The couch would also defuse sound and the system can go full width of the room at the other end. Ditch the second couch for some lighter chairs that can move. They don't have to be lawn chairs to still move around in the room easy enough. A coffee table in front of that couch can also do wonders for bass. But I really do think the number one most first'ist thing of all I would have done was.... TURN ON MY EQ. I can see audiophiles who read this screeching like the wicked witch of the west being hit with a bucket of water. Who cares if "it goes through another switch" as long as it sounds good when it gets there, even in a one car garage? Fixing a room to a stereo, only so there is at least one unobstructed center seat. Fixing a stereo to a room, EQ's, that's why I have had the same system in 3 houses and they all sound the same even with the space changes. Also if you want to make a swing at the fences I would say get another set of the same speakers and put them right next to the other set. Makes the sound, sound fuller and you can leave it at lower volumes and still be just as loud without all the bounce off of wall. Even dividing up the same power it just sounds better.
My next step is room treatment. My small square room has really bad bass problems. I moved my lounge forward to get out of a peak and to enable much better speaker placement and now I am in a bad null. We have a lack of bass traps and good acoustic panels available in australia there is literally abouy 5 companies to choose from and most only make crappy 1 or 2 inch industrial wall panels...no bass traps. Shipping and currency convwrsion from u.s makes it impossible to do. Unless you want to pay $2000 for some $400 bass traps. I'm getting 3" fiberglass wrapped panels, eithet the 4 verticsl corners first and then rear centre wall with 2 of them in a second lot and then 2 on the front wall behind the front speakers. I don't think anything more than that will be needed. Going from no treatment to 8x 3"x24"×48" panels should do a lot.
I gave that some thought, but laziness won the day. The sheetrock may have solved one issue (the wall resonance), but would have not done anything about the early (within a few ms) coherent reflections, so the diffusors would still be needed.
Ceiling is acoustical tile (absorbant), subjectively I don't perceive a ceiling reflection problem so I have not done anything beyond that. I want to avoid over-treatment. Gotta leave some liveliness in the room.
Go get two 12" four foot long sonotubes from home depot. Put it at left/right 1st side reflection points. Less than $20. If you like the results, use more. Too much foam sounds very dead. I like your diffurors. Hearing people talking at diffusors, i prefered a round instead of a quadratic. My opinion, not necessarily best for your ears.
Well thought out approach identifying and eliminating room interaction issues Paul. Our rooms are so important to sound quality. I plan to build several defuser panels once I retire later this year. Paul, I've installed about a dozen acoustic resonators and found the sound stage and focus (for lack of a better wording) very much improved. Check out Synergetic Research. My room is very much as yours but longer. 14X22
My call for help. I recently moved into a new house and my stereo now lives in a 20' x 20' bonus room. I've had a hell of a time getting it to sound decent again. Surprisingly, the bass isn't too bad, but the image and soundstage are all out of whack and the upper mids and highs are muddy sounding. Is this a side effect of flutter echo or comb filtering? If I cup my hands behind my ears it improves a lot, which makes me wonder if reflection from the rear wall is messing things up. Using extreme toe-in tightened up the image but it's definitely a compromise. Thoughts please?
it definitely does sounds like comb filtering and reflections. if you put absorption panels on your first reflection points that'll make it easier to tell what the problem is, if it doesnt fix it entirely. low ceiling? an absorption cloud (or more) can do wonders and fix problems without taking up too much space.
Now this is a "full range" audio system. The subwoofers are built into the towers. If you don't have active subs you DO NOT have full range anything. You have delusion...
You're better off using natural wool fleece not fiberglass not good for you either and is not as good as natural wool for lower frequency doesn't go as low down. could do with hanging some wool fleece on that wall would help a lot open up the sound stage. You want to keep away from this fly-by-night people selling acoustic panels like that . Just use natural wool fleece double it up for Corner bass traps just get some bamboo fix it 3' across drape the wool fleece over ideally higher than that, 1 foot from the ceiling and foot off the floor. The deflection panels are good but fleece above that would work a treat you really want deflection panels on the back wall behind the listener as well The arms too high you ideally want to have the pivot point at platter level find a half inch block of balsa wood got a 5 degree slope to get your correct angle back again try and get that arm low as possible
Thanks for the wool tips. I have a feeling i am not done trying things to get more improvement. Regarding the VTA, I put the new cartridge on recently and haven't tackled that yet. The Clearaudio Concept comes with VTA preset for the original supplied MC cartridge and they do not make it easy to readjust. Surgery or $500 for a retipped CA MC are the choices. Next on the agenda.
Don't know about the rest, but wool is definitely better than synthetic, for both clothing and audio applications. Replacing synthetic batting with combed wool batting in closed speakers helps, too. Just be careful to keep the same density with the wool replacement.
Small rooms with too similar dimensions are very prone to issues in the bass, why treatment is often more necessary. Besides you usually want to match the speaker size to the room size.
The guy talks about treatment but he forget a proper speaker set-up,his speakers will sound like mono,there is no space in between them,sorry but you wasted my time.
I tried many speaker positions before settling on the ones you see there. The system doesn't sound mono at all in fact the stereo image is wall to wall wide. Placement too close to side walls usually makes the imaging worse. Nothing beats trial and error and empirical results. What works for one room doesn't always work well in others. Let your ears be the judge.
He says his room's 14 ft wide and 16ft long. If he's got each speaker about 2 to 3 ft from the side walls, they are 8 ft to 10 ft apart, you schmucklefck. It's hard to tell from a video though. Since his room is 16 ft long he still can get his equilateral triangle and not have the couch too close to the back wall or speakers too close to the front wall. While it's not the most convenient dimensions, it is workable. My room is much larger, 27ish ft long and 20 wide. Speakers are 5 ft from sidewall and 10 ft apart. Speakers are 9 ft from front wall, couch/seating is 10 ft from speakers and 8 ft from back wall (very close to the 1/3rd rule). But, not everyone's gonna have a large ass room dude.
@@pauldicomo3545 Well if it works it works,im not there in you room,but an option is more space between the speaker and agrassive toe in,for me it works.
Terrific walk through of real world problem that most audiophiles encounter, namely how to make a small square room sound better. Thanks so much!
You can just hear it from his voice how well acoustically treated his room is. From experience, too much treatment is not always good, it's good to have a balance a little liveliness from the room makes for things to sound more "breathable".
Agreed, but fwiw it's too much "absorption" is not always good. I'm guessing that's what you meant. I don't want anyone to think too much treatment of any kind is an issue.
@@FOH3663 What kinds of treatment are there other than absorbing?
@@gideonkloosterman Diffusion, scattering mid-high frequencies without dulling the sound.
Nice work to get that room under some acoustic control. Back in the 70s when I was in the recording studio business I worked in several studios mostly in NYC installing and repairing recording consoles and tape recorders and listened to many different control rooms. There was a design which at the time was referred to as LEDE or Live End Dead End and I wound up building a listening room in my basement made to that concept and also used the same Altec 604 15" coaxial horn speakers that we sold to the recording studios. It was something to behold especially for a home listening room. I have also studied acoustics since then and those same design concepts from the 70s apply today.
I would like to make a couple of comments on Paul's room. I dont think that the diffusors behind the speakers are doing as much good as he thinks because they would only really be effective at the upper mids and highs which there is little to no energy at those frequencies a they dont propagate towards the back of the speakers like the low frequencies do. I think they would be much better used behind the listening couch at ear level to diffract the mids and highs to lower the early reflections arriving from the back wall to the ears. Also I would keep the couch at least 3 feet from the rear wall to lengthen the time of any reflections to reduce the psychoacoustic impact of any early reflections. I think that the majority of improvement in the front wall is from the stiffening cross members raising the resonant frequencies of that paneling, it would be very easy to test that theory by just removing the diffusors. I would completely tear down that wall and rebuild it from scratch to be solid so it does not vibrate very much at all.
The other comment I have is about the side walls. Having a reflective surface on one side and an absorbtive surface on the other side makes for some asymmetry in the frequencies at the listening area. I would instead put some diffusion surfaces on the right side under the window to make it more symmetrical.
Oh, one more thing. It would be worth it to replace some or all of the acoustic tiles on the ceiling with fiberglass or rockwool and cover it with burlap like I did or other acoustically transparent material. This would really help with reflections off the ceiling and also deaden the room. You might want to do this in only the front half of the room to keep from it becoming too dead.
But pretty nice work so far, just keep it up! 😊👌
Good advice. This is what we need from people who have been in the business for a while. I have seen your good comments else where. Keep up with good advice. You should see peoples super Hi-Fi gadgets. But their rooms sucks acoustically.
Just watch Steve's parade from time to time with proud owners with supe-end gear and low-end rooms... They don't need more gear. They need to start using money on acoustic treatment! Up to 50 % of the sound quality starts with the room.
My suggestions on this room will be : 1. heavy drapes in combination with more diffusers on front wall. Tearing down the wall would be great, but a bit too much for the owner? 2. I loved the idea of moving the couch forward. Just the same I have done, inch by inch. A long and winding road to get it right. Nearly there now..
My Fortes are way too far out from the front wall compared to the instructions in the manual from Klipsch. They are 90 cm out from the front wall and the couch have been moved forward against the speakers. Looks weird, but it works. It's not a pretty sight for an interior designer though... 3. I am just about to mount absorbing material in the ceiling. Reflections between ceiling and floor is no good. So I support that. 4. See if you can get a thicker carpet as well. People tend to forget about the rug. It's just there isn't? Some people buy really thick carpets and absorbing carpets underneath. ( I do), and get good damping results. You need a carpet anyway, so why don't get thick open carpets for absorption in the first place? Nothing like a good acoustic tweak. It's like gardening, you will never be finished...
Agreed, good advice.
1.) Symmetry
As much symetry as possible Left-to-Right with regard to spacing/proximities to anything, and of course treatment materials. What ever is on the left needs to be closely mimicked on the right.
2.) LF damping
Adequate bass trapping to approximate even decay across the frequency spectrum.
Splitting hairs though because the point is a slow progression toward the ideal ... one at a time addressing the "low hanging fruit" of small room acoustics.
Paul from the video is already far ahead of most enthusiasts...
Great video.
@Stewart - Agreed.
Absolutely loved this video. Its evident he 's an absolute expert who knows his stuff but he is so personable and down to earth. Even his system is completely relatable. If he ever makes a hifi channel I would watch it.
Given that every room will present different challenges and the only person the room has to sound good to is the listener, I trust that Paul's treatments were what that room needed. It certainly got me thinking about my own listening room (which does double-service as our living room) . . . thanks Paul!
I appreciate the pragmatic approach to great sound, thank you for sharing!
great video, very healthy approach with lots of common sense and knowledge. much better than any room treatment video iv'e ever seen,since he explains in a simple and practical way the problems and the solutions .
Really, really fascinating! I was pleased to hear of your success with the diffusers, thanks SO MUCH for sharing this!
Fascinating, thanks for sharing. Might just be me, but I think that style of diffuser looks cool as hell, sculptural even.
Great tour. Nice effort and explanation.
Great video. The modesty of his system, combined with intelligent acoustical treatment, was inspirational. I bet it sounds fantastic. I going to build diffusers ASAP.
Andrew Dorow what you mean by intelligent acoustics are you having a laugh
Thanks so much, it seems the room is the most important Box to get right...
Good no nonsense approach. I've got back into exploring audio through a strange route. For so long I was happy with what I had, then came a wake-up call. During redecoration last year I moved my setup from the main room of my house to the conservatory. Not looking for better sound, just a place to continue listening. Its a much larger space, but oddly shaped (4 metres by 15 metres) so I never considered it suitable. Its also full of hard surfaces. I set up using of alot of foam padding applied in strips to the walls behind the speakers and on moveable screens behind me, playing across the shorter 4 metre dimension not "firing down the tunnel". Some thick rubber interlocking tiles went over the solid stone floor. Absolutely jawdropping improvement on my old listening environment. Its not going back in the house!
I totally agree with final conclusion. I spent two years in optimising the sound vs room and I made huge advancement and expand my knowladge in the process. I wasn't lazy so I upgrade my power sockets, playong with the postions of the bookshelves (my room is a sqaure ) when I finnaly get the great system. From now on, it will be a lot easier to evaluate the gear...
Thank you, Paul. I thank you for the GIK Acoustics tip.
Hi Paul, I would suggest, if the waiting room is not being utilized, to dismantle the wall in order to expand the room. If the waiting room is in the vicinity of eight feet or so, you will have achieved the golden ratio of 1.61803398875. Don't worry about the structure, it looks like it is not a load bearing wall. A room width of 14'-0" will achieve a perfect length ratio @ 22'-6" thus making the room 22'-6" L x 14'-0" W. I am architect by profession and when we design concert halls we always use the classic "shoe box" design that the oldest and best sounding Orchestra Halls used...
You are correct, that would make a better proportioned room and the standing wave issues would be largely gone. The waiting room area though is my workshop and I have no other area in the house to use for that. I need to build a new house where I can get the listening room and workshop of my dreams. May be a while before that can happen.
Steve you hit a deep one with Paul's video. I've been a huge fan of Sandy Gross for 41 years. It started in 79' with Polk Monitor 10B. Paul obviously work in some capacity for Sandy and moved with him to DefTech. I also own the same DefTech ST-L Paul has in his system. Taming the bass on these is tricky, as they are powered towers (Internal amp for sub-woofer & passive radiator). I'm guessing that Paul has the amp connected to the ST-Ls without an LFE feed to their sub line level input. Great work Paul with taming the bass and accentuating the sound stage with acoustic room treatment. I do have my ST-L receiving an LFE signal, and it too was a challenge to manage the bass, but my listening space is much larger than Paul's and likely made my job easier. Also, besides Acoustic room treatment I used Anthem's ARC. Yeah, I converted to digital room correction. Thank you Paul and Steve for this informative video.
Yes indeed, Sandy and I worked together for many years He hired me at Polk and again at Definitive. A great man and friend. All Audio comes in to the speakers via standard speaker inputs. Up until I added the parasound preamp i did not have LFE to try. Ill give it a try but past experience setting up ST-Ls leads me to believe the speaker in method is better than LFE in two channel systems. . But never say never...so ill give it a try. Forget the theories and just do what works
Greetings Paul. I trust you and your loved ones are safe and doing well. Thank you for sharing your room acoustical treatment process. In regards to my comment on connecting to LFE input, It is actually an additional connection. Your current connection stays as is, you would be adding the LFE feed from your amp into the LFE input (must use Y splitter) of your two ST-Ls. For me it resulted in more depth (I don't mean deeper bass, but rather more tactile bass). It will require re-tweaking your bass gain in the sub section at the rear of the ST-Ls or using the remote. It also will require bass frequency crossover setting to the LFE signal. If your using an integrated amp with a LFE line level output, then it will have rollover low frequency settings. If you are using a separate Pre-amp and amp set up, your pre-amp may not have a separate crossover setting for a sub. I ran my ST-L for almost two years before it was suggested to me to add the LFE signal. Nix the whole thing if there is no way to set a cross over frequency going to LFE line input, you would be doubling the entire feed and the result would be horrible.Thanks again Paul. My best to you and your family.
Thanks for posting! I wouldn't put a diffuser on a door just because it looks uncool. I like Art Dudley's approach to simplicity in the listening room, without a lot of constant thinking about tweaks. Just enjoy the music on top notch equipment with a minimum of tweaks. But every audiophile has a different angle, & part of why the hobby is so entertaining.
It's a nice idea but it doesnt make much sense if you really want to hear what's going on and you spend good money on your system. You will get much more for your money with just a bit of effort and research into basstraps etc. Moving the couch around (they usually don't do much for absorbtion anyway) and thinking bookshelves will help significantly is absolute entry level beginner stuff and a slightly lazy approach. This isn't vague like cable science and other slightly voodoo aspects audiophiles like to spend their money on. This is real world physics that's been thoroughly documented and is very easy to measure. Room treatment just works because that's how nature works.
Sounds like a snake oil dealer told you to shy away from room treatment to sell his stuff. You always need room treatment no matter how much you spent on speakers or electronics.
also roolm treatment can look, or be made to look, super cool!
4" of Owens Corning 703 only absorbs down to 125Hz, but 4" thick absorb very well and evenly down to 125. Ot's a good choice keeping the panels off the wall. They are twice as efficient with an air gap. Those dispersion panels would also only cover a tiny midrange bandwidth. But yet, everything would help a lot.
That is just a fantastic looking room! I love the paneling and built-in shelves. He is lucky to have such a room. The dimensions are ok by me. Almost any dimensions can be worked with unless it is a very odd shape or a round house or something.
Paul, you did a well thought out job on treating the room (this is the way to it)! I knew so many folks who would over-treat their rooms and waste money in the process and end up with more problems than they started with. You tested, figured it out and went to the right folks over at GIK. Good company to work with! They are not sloppy (like some other companies I know) and will not over-sell you and will educate you as well. They narrow it all down having you work with one of their acoustical engineers before talking panels and such with you. (Saves a lot of money too) and all that help is for free! (Some places charge to speak with their engineers and then try to sell you a house).
I was also surprised to see your gear. Great system by the way! Looks like you gave similar thought to choosing your components.
Surprisingly, I also run a Parasound P6, but my amp is a Parasound A23+, which powers a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 v5 towers (Why did Paradigm stop making those?)! As well, I have a Parasound JC3 Jr, which is a giant killer in my opinion, a phenomenal phono pre (the last one I will need to buy, it is solid! I also have the Marantz ND8006. My turntable is a Denon DP-47f with a Ortofon 2M Bronze.
I often ask myself why so many people put diffusers on the front wall if the speaker mid and highs radiate to the other side. For me it makes more sense to put them on the wall behind your ears. I don’t doubt you had a positive experience doing that, just wandering. Congrats on your nice setup!
For a small room it could make the room sound bigger, that's usually the reason to go with diffusers over absorption.
Carlos, that is exactly my idea also about the diffusers. See my lengthy earlier post. By chance, are you related to a friend of mine from Nevada Eddie Villarreal?
Stewart Markley Will check your post Stewart. Villarreal is a quite common last name in northern Mexico where I,m from, he could be a far relative that I,m nota were of. Cheers
Yup. Room treatments make all the diiference in the world. Trying some will make you a believer.
One thing I've found with tower speakers is that they have a very wide dispersion pattern and throw sound behind them and everywhere. So, towers benefit dramatically more from placing panels behind the speakers.
Again ladies and gentleman the biggest component in a system is the room. Something that gets overlooked alot. Helps if you have a dedicated room obviously 😀
@Brandon - Agreed. From what I have witnessed, the "room" gets overlooked about 97% of the time, and small-room acoustics are mis-understood about 98% of the time. just sayin'
Very useful. Thanks for this
Good set up .
Truth , great equipment in a shite room is ruined .
Take care everyone.
Thanks! I’m in a cubic room too. Lots to assess.
Right on time!!!!
Sweet system. Thank you!
Whenever I have a house guest, I ask them if they mind I play with room treatments while they speak...I explain that I want to hear them as accurately as possible. They are befuddled until I convince them that there is a perfect place for their voice to resound in and I think I know where that is...They smile in acknowledgement that I am completely ridiculous and unable to adapt.
I have openings in my walls to another room and a hallway.
Gonna take another critical look at my setup. I used the Cardas speaker placement calculator to start with setup, but I feel the room is still letting me down.
Les Wever so what's your issue then? What are not happy with
@@johnsweda2999 , thanks for asking. Maybe I'm just a typical audiophile trying to squeeze every drop of performance from my system.
I got some new speakers ( JBL 4430 clones - DIY) a few months ago and the dynamics are great, but the imaging appears to be inferior to the Magnepan 1.7s.
The room has some echo when you clap or cheer (TV is in the same room). I have been known to cover the screen with a blanket and hang sheets to enclose the doorways, and this helps somewhat.
Thanks to everyone who left a comment, especially those with helpful suggestions for further tweaks. I have a feeling I'm not done yet! Happy listening!
Paul, thanks very much for sharing. Even though you are/were "in the business", your room, treatment solutions and system are relatable to the majority of audiophiles that need to work within a budget as well as make do with the room they have available for listening. Your advice to not get carried away with the damping is spot on! It is easy to get carried away with treatments. Before you know it, your music loses its sheen and shimmer. Well done!
Good video. Your diffusers turned out awesome. 👍
Great system with some sensible treatments. Bet it sounds great. It may be worth experimenting with absorbers/diffusers on a stand you can use in addition to the bookshelves and couch. Because they're on stands you can move when not needed. They'll do better with side reflections and improve imaging even more.
Ian Cresswell yes get some wooden Swift Blinds big slats hang in a frame attach at the bottom on the bottom tie with a bungee cord behind the Swiss blind leave an 2 inch gap put some wool fleece behind, go with 3 feet across blinds you have a mixture of diffuser and absorption you can adjust the blind and for the perfect balance
I have a feeling Im not done tinkering yet. I'll look into all the suggestions for further improvements
Great video, enlightening and informative.
Nice treatment. I have 12" deep cd shelves built-ins behind my speakers filled with cds practically floor to ceiling in a 20x40' living room with the 20' wall behind the speakers. 4'x8' shelves on both sides of the large center window. Then I have sound deadening curtains in front of the shelves and window honeycomb blind. I also stack double the amount of cds on the shelves by using cd crates too so that there are all these nooks and crannies. It seems to help diffuse the sound, plus acoustic panels at reflection points and some bass traps, and soft and hard furniture, rug, blinds curtains, books, etc. I do worry that I made the room sound too dead. When I clap hands I hear the clap period. But prior to doing acoustic treatment I got listener fatigue real fast. Now I can sit and listen for hours and at higher volume levels than before. So the fatigue was getting me at lower volumes before. I couldn't even go up high. Now I can listen at higher volumes and not get fatigued.
sounds perfect to me :D you could add some woodpanels to your basstraps to get some nice reflections. that can sometimes give the room a more pleasant and less laboratory feel.
Looks like Definitve Technology Bi-Polar series speakers. My father in law has the P7004 model. Hence the reflections and bass Paul is refering too.
No, the model I have is the Mythos ST-L, not one of the bipolar models. Contrary to popular belief forward radiating speakers propagate a lot of sound behind them. just walk around a traditional speaker while it is paying - lots of midrange energy back there.
Great video, but i can't put those qr diffusers in my livingroom
Good video. A normal living room with plenty of trouble acoustics. 95 % of us have rooms like that.
95 % of the audiophiles have high end systems and I think 95 % also have low end acoustics to start off.... The diffusers looks great but I think heavy drapes on the front wall in combination with the diffusers will improve the sound quality even more. Also drapes on the end wall. The drapes should be 0,5 kilo pr.square meter to do a proper absorption of highs and mids. You could look into he possibility for bass traps in the corners up under the ceiling.
Doesn't a shelf filled from end to end with CD's/vinyl just create a new reflecting surface? I'm especially interested in this because i have the same setup: window on one side and shelves of CD's/BD's/books on the other.
excellent vid, very informative
Tell the shrink to pick his couch up
Great! Thankyou!
Nice, I like that Milty Zerostat on top of the Marantz streamer.
If you open the door, you will have an infinite bass trap.
Great video Paul, and Thanks for circling back showing us the system. Is the DIY diffuser a random pattern or is it specific? Do you have info on that project?
Mike M Seems like QRD. Download QRDude.exe program.
Jyrki H and what's that supposed to give you?
If you google quadratic diffusor patterns or plans you'll find schematics that show the "tower" length for each position. One note: if you use wood 2x2 lumber is really 1.5 by 1.5 so the resultant panel ends up 18 x 18 inches. I used 2" thick closed cell foam (sold as brand foamular) and cut it with a specialized foam cutting tool. Steep learning curve on that method but i got there eventually after creating a mountain of scrap.
imho, I would have to flip the room and put the system at the other end and the short couch on the door wall. That way there is a center seat at the far end. The couch would also defuse sound and the system can go full width of the room at the other end. Ditch the second couch for some lighter chairs that can move. They don't have to be lawn chairs to still move around in the room easy enough. A coffee table in front of that couch can also do wonders for bass.
But I really do think the number one most first'ist thing of all I would have done was.... TURN ON MY EQ.
I can see audiophiles who read this screeching like the wicked witch of the west being hit with a bucket of water. Who cares if "it goes through another switch" as long as it sounds good when it gets there, even in a one car garage? Fixing a room to a stereo, only so there is at least one unobstructed center seat. Fixing a stereo to a room, EQ's, that's why I have had the same system in 3 houses and they all sound the same even with the space changes. Also if you want to make a swing at the fences I would say get another set of the same speakers and put them right next to the other set. Makes the sound, sound fuller and you can leave it at lower volumes and still be just as loud without all the bounce off of wall. Even dividing up the same power it just sounds better.
My next step is room treatment. My small square room has really bad bass problems. I moved my lounge forward to get out of a peak and to enable much better speaker placement and now I am in a bad null.
We have a lack of bass traps and good acoustic panels available in australia there is literally abouy 5 companies to choose from and most only make crappy 1 or 2 inch industrial wall panels...no bass traps.
Shipping and currency convwrsion from u.s makes it impossible to do. Unless you want to pay $2000 for some $400 bass traps.
I'm getting 3" fiberglass wrapped panels, eithet the 4 verticsl corners first and then rear centre wall with 2 of them in a second lot and then 2 on the front wall behind the front speakers.
I don't think anything more than that will be needed. Going from no treatment to 8x 3"x24"×48" panels should do a lot.
Overall good advice. I would have replaced the paneling with sheet rock.
I gave that some thought, but laziness won the day. The sheetrock may have solved one issue (the wall resonance), but would have not done anything about the early (within a few ms) coherent reflections, so the diffusors would still be needed.
I wonder why he doesn’t use the amp with dsp indoors.
Very nice DIY setup. But, what about the ceiling?
It was an old psychiatrists room, I am certain the shrink installed it for the purpose of his business.
Ceiling is acoustical tile (absorbant), subjectively I don't perceive a ceiling reflection problem so I have not done anything beyond that. I want to avoid over-treatment. Gotta leave some liveliness in the room.
I figured there was something up there, acoustical ceiling, as you said, should be more than enough with the other treatments. Take care, be safe
A sometimes overlooked but very important aspect to sound reproduction.
Only thing missing is a kegerator!
Go get two 12" four foot long sonotubes from home depot. Put it at left/right 1st side reflection points. Less than $20. If you like the results, use more. Too much foam sounds very dead. I like your diffurors. Hearing people talking at diffusors, i prefered a round instead of a quadratic. My opinion, not necessarily best for your ears.
every room sounds better with room treatment, i like absorption and cant have enough of it. rooms does not sound natural to human ears.
Well thought out approach identifying and eliminating room interaction issues Paul. Our rooms are so important to sound quality. I plan to build several defuser panels once I retire later this year.
Paul, I've installed about a dozen acoustic resonators and found the sound stage and focus (for lack of a better wording) very much improved. Check out Synergetic Research. My room is very much as yours but longer. 14X22
I have heard their demos at shows. I am a skeptic about such things but their demos are convincing.
I was extremely skeptical until a friend got some.
How cool it that?
My call for help.
I recently moved into a new house and my stereo now lives in a 20' x 20' bonus room. I've had a hell of a time getting it to sound decent again.
Surprisingly, the bass isn't too bad, but the image and soundstage are all out of whack and the upper mids and highs are muddy sounding. Is this a side effect of flutter echo or comb filtering?
If I cup my hands behind my ears it improves a lot, which makes me wonder if reflection from the rear wall is messing things up. Using extreme toe-in tightened up the image but it's definitely a compromise. Thoughts please?
It is difficult to get the bass right in square rooms. This guy discusses it at 13:03. th-cam.com/video/8b1W7QgqhR8/w-d-xo.html
it definitely does sounds like comb filtering and reflections. if you put absorption panels on your first reflection points that'll make it easier to tell what the problem is, if it doesnt fix it entirely. low ceiling? an absorption cloud (or more) can do wonders and fix problems without taking up too much space.
Now this is a "full range" audio system.
The subwoofers are built into the towers.
If you don't have active subs you DO NOT have full range anything.
You have delusion...
You're better off using natural wool fleece not fiberglass not good for you either and is not as good as natural wool for lower frequency doesn't go as low down. could do with hanging some wool fleece on that wall would help a lot open up the sound stage. You want to keep away from this fly-by-night people selling acoustic panels like that . Just use natural wool fleece double it up for Corner bass traps just get some bamboo fix it 3' across drape the wool fleece over ideally higher than that, 1 foot from the ceiling and foot off the floor.
The deflection panels are good but fleece above that would work a treat you really want deflection panels on the back wall behind the listener as well
The arms too high you ideally want to have the pivot point at platter level find a half inch block of balsa wood got a 5 degree slope to get your correct angle back again try and get that arm low as possible
Thanks for the wool tips. I have a feeling i am not done trying things to get more improvement. Regarding the VTA, I put the new cartridge on recently and haven't tackled that yet. The Clearaudio Concept comes with VTA preset for the original supplied MC cartridge and they do not make it easy to readjust. Surgery or $500 for a retipped CA MC are the choices. Next on the agenda.
@@pauldicomo3545 hang a bear rug on the wall and pretend you shot and skinned it
Don't know about the rest, but wool is definitely better than synthetic, for both clothing and audio applications.
Replacing synthetic batting with combed wool batting in closed speakers helps, too. Just be careful to keep the same density with the wool replacement.
Hare deLune what do you mean batting?
Fibreglass installation is made from spun glass you don't want it floating around in the air and breathing it in
All that for those small speakers?
Small rooms with too similar dimensions are very prone to issues in the bass, why treatment is often more necessary. Besides you usually want to match the speaker size to the room size.
Small speakers with a big heart.
John, I listened to Harbeth LS3/5A's (size of a Kleenex box) for many many years and loved it. It's not the size it's about sound.
Add 4 subs and your bass response would be great
I have a lot of treatments and I just have bookshelf speakers on stands, doesn’t matter how big the speakers are.
The guy talks about treatment but he forget a proper speaker set-up,his speakers will sound like mono,there is no space in between them,sorry but you wasted my time.
I tried many speaker positions before settling on the ones you see there. The system doesn't sound mono at all in fact the stereo image is wall to wall wide. Placement too close to side walls usually makes the imaging worse. Nothing beats trial and error and empirical results. What works for one room doesn't always work well in others. Let your ears be the judge.
Gino Sauerbier closed minds never learn
He says his room's 14 ft wide and 16ft long. If he's got each speaker about 2 to 3 ft from the side walls, they are 8 ft to 10 ft apart, you schmucklefck. It's hard to tell from a video though. Since his room is 16 ft long he still can get his equilateral triangle and not have the couch too close to the back wall or speakers too close to the front wall. While it's not the most convenient dimensions, it is workable. My room is much larger, 27ish ft long and 20 wide. Speakers are 5 ft from sidewall and 10 ft apart. Speakers are 9 ft from front wall, couch/seating is 10 ft from speakers and 8 ft from back wall (very close to the 1/3rd rule). But, not everyone's gonna have a large ass room dude.
I had to remove a bathroom and a large closet to make my room bigger (many wives will send you to the dog kennel permanently if ya do such a thing)
@@pauldicomo3545 Well if it works it works,im not there in you room,but an option is more space between the speaker and agrassive toe in,for me it works.
My CD collection make for good diffusion too 😉
Yup, that's the only thing I use them for!