Gal 5:20 speaks of dissensions and heresies as being works of the flesh. Depending on the translation heresies (haireseis) is also translated as factions or divisions. Sounds a lot like a denomination to me.
Nowhere does the bible speak of denominations, but also the bible does not condemn them either. Please give exact chapter and verse in 1 Corinthians that would condemn denominations?
Your claim of sectarianism as being bad just proves the opposite. First example of secarianiam would be conflict between RC church and protestants, conflict between Christians and Muslims, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons etc... We need to have conflict with them, they are false and heretical. We need to have visible separation. Second there are philosophical conflicts between false churches and false religions and cults that we have and need to have to show separation from the true bodies of Christ.
I think you're conflating denominations with sectarianism. And just to be clear I'm not a fan of denominations either. I don't Identify as a (fill in the blank), church member. Im a Christian a born again follower of Christ.
@mariosangermano I'm talking about divisions in the body of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians, not taking a stand against false religions, which we ought to do Denominations simply have no scriptural support.
Makes me happy that I go to a non-denominational church although some of these are not healthy either, but mine is. The cessationist and the continuationist alike are running out of options when it comes to a denomination that hasn’t gone liberal in some way or another.
@ I’m not a debater but if you’re genuinely interested in learning about church history and the Bible from our perspective then I would encourage you to tune in to the guys at the Remnant Radio, that’s a great podcast on TH-cam. Cheers
Denominations are necessary for one reason: Transparency. When we say that we believe in Jesus, we need to be perfectly clear what we mean by that. Think about it. If you say just you believe the Bible without giving me any more information, I don't know whether you mean the Bible with the apocrypha in or out. Mormons and a lot of other pseudo-Christian cults are often are mistaken for Christians because they use a lot of the same language, but believe fundamentally different things. I can assume the best of intentions from someone who is nondenominational. I used to be one myself. Nondenominationals just say the exact same things I used to say. Naive and shortsighted as I know it is now, I know where they're coming from and can't blame them for disagreeing. Christians take longer to mature in some places than others, and to expect everyone to have the same convictions I do would be foolish. However, when i grew up in the faith, I realized how important it is to make it clear what our confessions of faith mean, and when Nondenominationals experience the same being misled and deceived by a lack of transparency, they will see their folly and agree with me then.
Thanks for sharing your point of view. I would only add that many churches that claim to hold to creeds and denominational statements of faith often give lip service to the confession which is in a file cabinet somewhere all while preaching something different from the pulpit, and even when local churches go bad the Denomination often fails to act. Just look at the Catholic Church, Francis says he believes in the apostles creed but then goes and teaches heresy, everyone knows it but they don't remove him. If that happens in the "biggest denomination" (so to speak) it certainly happens in smaller ones, it becomes all about internal politics.
@Pastor_Grant the RCC is much worse. It's a false religious system that has a false gospel a different Jesus ( even though they claim He is God) they deny His power to save alone and completely. They claim He comes down from heaven every week in the eucharist, literally. They also have a different Mary. It would take 10 pages of paper to write out all the heresies of that false Christianity. I was born and raised in it. Unfortunately many protestants have no clue to what the RCC is all about and think they are our brothers and sisters.
@@mariosangermano agree, yes, I don't mean to imply they are just another Christian denomination, but they are the most organized structed church int he world with creeds and its a broken system is more of my point.
Denomination or non-denomination... The most important is to be in the Will of God where ever God wants you to be to fellowship with the saints for His glory. Independant Baptist churches for exemple are independent from the councel of churches, even so they hold the name 'baptist', they do not belongs nor are they attached to any other authority than Christ as the head. However, they follow the biblical model of pastors, elders, etc... which is good so the pastor is accountable in case he starts teaching false doctrine or living in sins etc... Many house churches and or homegroup do not know how to rightly divide the Word of God...its concerning. I've seen many people leaving churches out of offences and grow bitterness in their heart, than they join home churches and becomes so proudfull. Of course not everyone, but many. Thats why The most important is to pray and ask God where He will have you fellowship. Remain in His Will🙏☝️✝️ God bless you all.
This long-winded but you invited it This isn't your best take. This seems like a video that would have benefitted from serious re-write and editing. This is a prime example of throwing the baby out with the bath water or, more formally, a hasty generalization. My perspective is that the main purpose of a denomination is accountability and to ensure orthodoxy. This is not deny that there are several (many ?) denominations that have strayed from the one true faith and have departed orthodoxy. (And I am expressedly excluding the RCC). Are there obviously bad Denominations ? Certainly. Are there obviously bad Non-denominational churches ? Without a doubt. The existence of a bad examples doesn't negate the overall value. And it is of note that all 'non-denominational' churches came from a Denomination. [I would put the following closing paragraph at the bottom but I doubt anyone will read that far down] And just a reminder, William Carey was a Baptist and America was founded by members of a Denomination that wanted freedom to worship as they felt lead. Denominations aren't bad but are indeed necessary and have the possibility of doing great good in the world 1. No denominations in the Bible. This is a weak argument from silence. And to say Jesus would have established denominations if He thought they were needed is just ... strange. And another argument from silence. And Matthew 28 ensures there will be different churches as different interpretations of the Gospel are spread. Remember the Jerusalem Council ? Righteous differences WILL occur. Recall the Nicaea, Ephesus, Constantinople, Chalcedon and Orange Councils ? Remember ALL the different heresies they had to address ? Differences in interpretation WILL occur. Men in isolation (and even with counsel) will make mistakes. Oversight is invaluable in ensuring the faithful spread of the Gospel 2. 'Multi-Headed Moster' is a scary phrase devoid of context. When Paul (and others) planted Churches, they communicated with and sometimes returned to ensure these churches were operating correctly (Corinthians anyone ?). They maintained a sense of control and authority over those churches over time. The foundation that was laid is found in the Bible. And I agree there are no longer any Apostles or Prophets operating today. 3. 'Lord it over the Flock'. Fine. Abuses occur and are destructive to the body of Christ but anecdotes don't represent generalities. Abuses DON'T happen at non-denominational Churches ? I'll assert that much damage has been done to the Body in non-denominational (ND) churches AND it is primarily in ND churches where the most gross violations in the name of Christ' have occured. The recent history of ND churches doesn't not support your argument. I think the polity practiced by certain Presbyterian denominations quite useful for oversight AND protection. You say you are quoting Scripture but you don't really. You're appealing to a surpringly shallow perspective of the Apostolic age and the early church. Denominations are invaluable in that they provide a solid structure of doctrine and history and provide guardrails to ensure - as best they can - that they do not slip into heresy. Confessions and Cathecisms are invaluable assistants in both shepherding and instructing the flock. I consider these tools as an expansion upon the well-known creeds such as the Nicaea and Chalcedonian What is to ensure that you and your congregation do not drift into heresy ? How do you guard against moving into error ? What do ND churches rely on to guard against theological drift ? Absent some sort external input these one man band churches will inevitably slide into error. There are numerous verses regarding council and guidance that I don't even have to cite.
One observed issue with non denom however is the big ones often end up with the flock being entirely subject to the pastor who they often cant even know on a personal level. So while i follow and agree with most of uour arguments being non denom doesn't equate to only being under the authority of god. Some of thier chain of command is arguably even more enviable by corporate heads from what ive seen.
Where does a church stand when it comes to the filioque, soteriology, Christology, eschatology, or ecclesiastical membership? The best denominations have theological positions on these matters. The problem with independent churches and non-denominationalism is that its theology is baptistic at best. At worst, there is a level of ignorance to different theological positions and independent churches make it up as they go.
We have positions on all of those things with the exception of maybe the filioque clause, I do know of independent churches that intentionally avoid doctrine so I am not saying Independant always equals "good".
I don't think the various baptist associations meet your criteria of an unbiblical "denomination". Seems to me they have no hierarchy, and all they do is foster voluntary cooperation. You can argue that it's a bad tactic for cooperation, but the associations themselves do not violate Scripture.
There is only One God and One Truth. All the denominations have their own beliefs. They are all different. That was what I figured out as a kid. Only the Bible is yhe Truth.
While the bible nowhere mentions denominations, and does not condemn them either, I wouldn't call them demonic. And I'll give you props for your creative take on the word, but it's just that, nothing but your creative take on a word. I'm not big on denominations, but they do help Identify groups of Christians. On the other hand the down side is they can cause divisions among Christians. So all this to say, If you like biblically based doctrinally sound denominations, which are rare, then that's fine. If you like non denominational churches that's fine. But they also have their down side. Accountability. There's a danger in straying from biblically based sound doctrine as well. But non denominations are good as long as you can find a good one which can be just as much of a challenge.
I have to say I agree and disagree with you. I agree that denominations are not biblical, but for a totally different reason. I'm not as concerned about church politics or hierarchy. Especially since the Bible doesn't teach one pastor running the church. All thru the New testament mentions elders. Plural. ie: Acts 11:30, 14:23, 1Timothy 5:17, Titus 1:5, 1Peter 5:1, and so on. Ephesians 4:11-13. Teachs us church hierarchy, and for what reason. V. 13, Till we all come in the unity of the faith. The church is the most divided institution on the planet. Especially when it comes to how to be saved, or born again. There is about 200 denominations in America. All preaching the Bible a little bit differently. That is confusion, not unity. The church was built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. The Rock Christ Jesus. These denominations has forsaken the foundation and laid a new foundation. That's why most don't even preach the gospel anymore. They don't preach against sin. The problem with denominations isn't hierarchy, it's doctrine. In the last days, the church will not endure sound doctrine. They've cast away Repentance. They've cast away baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, washing away your sins. They've cast away the gift of the Holy Ghost. Speaking in other tongues. They've cast away the walk in the Spirit and spiritual gifts. Remember the parable of the ten virgins. Five were wise and five were foolish. The five foolish let their oil run out. They didn't keep themselves full of the Holy Ghost. They lost out. Acts 2:38, And Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for the promise is unto you and to your children and those who are a far off even as many as the Lord our God shall call. God is still calling. Have you obeyed his word?
Denominations are fine. Denominationalism is sin. And so is anti-denominationalism. Because it's just as factionalist as the Denominationalist is. Also, historic Baptist associationalism does not necessitate the creation of different offices in the way you claim.
Okay before i even watch this i will say, i have always disliked the idea of denominations..( pet doctorines produce piety pride. the bible is very clear about sectarianism. with that said 😂 lets see if we agree.
I will say this, the sourthern baptist convention, they use Lifeway who provide "quartlies" which are bible study study guides, and many times they have left out MAJOR lessons in the bible one for example the burning bush...also Lifeway also sells/promotes some false teachers books in their online catalog. Its worth looking into. One Sunday our teacher was like " we gotta stick to the" quarterly" ...it really caught our attention, and we've been discussing it since, to the point of researching Lifeway....it would seem Lifeway has been pulling some publications of false doctorine but not all, and to be called the " arm " of the southern baptist convention...youd think false doctorine would be a big no no to them.
Wow, people are dying and GOING TO HELL and you guys waste your time using ur platform to talk about crap like THIS. PREACH THE GOSPEL. YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS THAT DONT AMOUNT TO CRAP WHEN IT COMES RIGHT DOWN TO IT. NO DENOMINATION HAS A CORNER ON TRUTH. THERES TOO MANY OF THESE GUYS TRYING TO THEOLOGY INFLAT THEIR EGOS INSTEAD OF CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.
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Thank you, P Mike! My church is nondenominational and our Pastors teach expositorily😊
I agree with this ❤Thank you ! Good explanation.
Gal 5:20 speaks of dissensions and heresies as being works of the flesh. Depending on the translation heresies (haireseis) is also translated as factions or divisions. Sounds a lot like a denomination to me.
It does doesn't it.
Thank you Pastor Grant. My church is non-denominational and it teaches the Bible.
Every group says that 😅😅😅
I have been saying for some time now,that Denominations almost always become apostate. Something seems to be inherent in over organization.
This is excellent, thank you for this.
We definitely need a new reformation in the church today
Thank you for this message. I totally agree.
Not only does the N.T. not teach Denominations, it's clearly against sectarianism, see 1 Corinthians for example.
Nowhere does the bible speak of denominations, but also the bible does not condemn them either. Please give exact chapter and verse in 1 Corinthians that would condemn denominations?
Your claim of sectarianism as being bad just proves the opposite.
First example of secarianiam would be conflict between RC church and protestants, conflict between Christians and Muslims, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons etc... We need to have conflict with them, they are false and heretical. We need to have visible separation.
Second there are philosophical conflicts between false churches and false religions and cults that we have and need to have to show separation from the true bodies of Christ.
I think you're conflating denominations with sectarianism. And just to be clear I'm not a fan of denominations either. I don't Identify as a (fill in the blank), church member. Im a Christian a born again follower of Christ.
@mariosangermano I'm talking about divisions in the body of Christ as described in 1 Corinthians, not taking a stand against false religions, which we ought to do
Denominations simply have no scriptural support.
Makes me happy that I go to a non-denominational church although some of these are not healthy either, but mine is. The cessationist and the continuationist alike are running out of options when it comes to a denomination that hasn’t gone liberal in some way or another.
Which are you ??
@ continuation camp :)
@joshbradfield629 can you provide examples of the gifts from church history ??
@ I’m not a debater but if you’re genuinely interested in learning about church history and the Bible from our perspective then I would encourage you to tune in to the guys at the Remnant Radio, that’s a great podcast on TH-cam. Cheers
@joshbradfield629 grew up pentecostal...
Went to baptist Bible college...
YES, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY HEAD OF THE CHURCH
Denominations are necessary for one reason: Transparency. When we say that we believe in Jesus, we need to be perfectly clear what we mean by that. Think about it. If you say just you believe the Bible without giving me any more information, I don't know whether you mean the Bible with the apocrypha in or out. Mormons and a lot of other pseudo-Christian cults are often are mistaken for Christians because they use a lot of the same language, but believe fundamentally different things. I can assume the best of intentions from someone who is nondenominational. I used to be one myself. Nondenominationals just say the exact same things I used to say. Naive and shortsighted as I know it is now, I know where they're coming from and can't blame them for disagreeing. Christians take longer to mature in some places than others, and to expect everyone to have the same convictions I do would be foolish. However, when i grew up in the faith, I realized how important it is to make it clear what our confessions of faith mean, and when Nondenominationals experience the same being misled and deceived by a lack of transparency, they will see their folly and agree with me then.
Thanks for sharing your point of view. I would only add that many churches that claim to hold to creeds and denominational statements of faith often give lip service to the confession which is in a file cabinet somewhere all while preaching something different from the pulpit, and even when local churches go bad the Denomination often fails to act. Just look at the Catholic Church, Francis says he believes in the apostles creed but then goes and teaches heresy, everyone knows it but they don't remove him. If that happens in the "biggest denomination" (so to speak) it certainly happens in smaller ones, it becomes all about internal politics.
@Pastor_Grant the RCC is much worse. It's a false religious system that has a false gospel a different Jesus ( even though they claim He is God) they deny His power to save alone and completely. They claim He comes down from heaven every week in the eucharist, literally. They also have a different Mary. It would take 10 pages of paper to write out all the heresies of that false Christianity. I was born and raised in it.
Unfortunately many protestants have no clue to what the RCC is all about and think they are our brothers and sisters.
@@mariosangermano agree, yes, I don't mean to imply they are just another Christian denomination, but they are the most organized structed church int he world with creeds and its a broken system is more of my point.
The IFCA has a few thousand churches and has existed since 1930 and has not compromised in the way you described.
Denomination or non-denomination...
The most important is to be in the Will of God where ever God wants you to be to fellowship with the saints for His glory.
Independant Baptist churches for exemple are independent from the councel of churches, even so they hold the name 'baptist', they do not belongs nor are they attached to any other authority than Christ as the head.
However, they follow the biblical model of pastors, elders, etc... which is good so the pastor is accountable in case he starts teaching false doctrine or living in sins etc...
Many house churches and or homegroup do not know how to rightly divide the Word of God...its concerning.
I've seen many people leaving churches out of offences and grow bitterness in their heart, than they join home churches and becomes so proudfull. Of course not everyone, but many.
Thats why The most important is to pray and ask God where He will have you fellowship.
Remain in His Will🙏☝️✝️
God bless you all.
This long-winded but you invited it
This isn't your best take. This seems like a video that would have benefitted from serious re-write and editing. This is a prime example of throwing the baby out with the bath water or, more formally, a hasty generalization.
My perspective is that the main purpose of a denomination is accountability and to ensure orthodoxy. This is not deny that there are several (many ?) denominations that have strayed from the one true faith and have departed orthodoxy. (And I am expressedly excluding the RCC). Are there obviously bad Denominations ? Certainly. Are there obviously bad Non-denominational churches ? Without a doubt. The existence of a bad examples doesn't negate the overall value.
And it is of note that all 'non-denominational' churches came from a Denomination.
[I would put the following closing paragraph at the bottom but I doubt anyone will read that far down]
And just a reminder, William Carey was a Baptist and America was founded by members of a Denomination that wanted freedom to worship as they felt lead. Denominations aren't bad but are indeed necessary and have the possibility of doing great good in the world
1. No denominations in the Bible. This is a weak argument from silence. And to say Jesus would have established denominations if He thought they were needed is just ... strange. And another argument from silence. And Matthew 28 ensures there will be different churches as different interpretations of the Gospel are spread. Remember the Jerusalem Council ? Righteous differences WILL occur. Recall the Nicaea, Ephesus, Constantinople, Chalcedon and Orange Councils ? Remember ALL the different heresies they had to address ? Differences in interpretation WILL occur. Men in isolation (and even with counsel) will make mistakes. Oversight is invaluable in ensuring the faithful spread of the Gospel
2. 'Multi-Headed Moster' is a scary phrase devoid of context. When Paul (and others) planted Churches, they communicated with and sometimes returned to ensure these churches were operating correctly (Corinthians anyone ?). They maintained a sense of control and authority over those churches over time. The foundation that was laid is found in the Bible. And I agree there are no longer any Apostles or Prophets operating today.
3. 'Lord it over the Flock'. Fine. Abuses occur and are destructive to the body of Christ but anecdotes don't represent generalities. Abuses DON'T happen at non-denominational Churches ? I'll assert that much damage has been done to the Body in non-denominational (ND) churches AND it is primarily in ND churches where the most gross violations in the name of Christ' have occured. The recent history of ND churches doesn't not support your argument. I think the polity practiced by certain Presbyterian denominations quite useful for oversight AND protection.
You say you are quoting Scripture but you don't really. You're appealing to a surpringly shallow perspective of the Apostolic age and the early church.
Denominations are invaluable in that they provide a solid structure of doctrine and history and provide guardrails to ensure - as best they can - that they do not slip into heresy. Confessions and Cathecisms are invaluable assistants in both shepherding and instructing the flock. I consider these tools as an expansion upon the well-known creeds such as the Nicaea and Chalcedonian
What is to ensure that you and your congregation do not drift into heresy ? How do you guard against moving into error ? What do ND churches rely on to guard against theological drift ? Absent some sort external input these one man band churches will inevitably slide into error. There are numerous verses regarding council and guidance that I don't even have to cite.
Thanks for your perspective.
One observed issue with non denom however is the big ones often end up with the flock being entirely subject to the pastor who they often cant even know on a personal level.
So while i follow and agree with most of uour arguments being non denom doesn't equate to only being under the authority of god. Some of thier chain of command is arguably even more enviable by corporate heads from what ive seen.
True
Amen
I agree. I don't believe in denominations either.
Where does a church stand when it comes to the filioque, soteriology, Christology, eschatology, or ecclesiastical membership? The best denominations have theological positions on these matters. The problem with independent churches and non-denominationalism is that its theology is baptistic at best. At worst, there is a level of ignorance to different theological positions and independent churches make it up as they go.
We have positions on all of those things with the exception of maybe the filioque clause, I do know of independent churches that intentionally avoid doctrine so I am not saying Independant always equals "good".
I don't think the various baptist associations meet your criteria of an unbiblical "denomination". Seems to me they have no hierarchy, and all they do is foster voluntary cooperation.
You can argue that it's a bad tactic for cooperation, but the associations themselves do not violate Scripture.
As long as an arch bishop off somewhere can't seize the building, bank account etc, as long as a church keeps its autonomy I don't see a problem.
There is only One God and One Truth.
All the denominations have their own beliefs.
They are all different.
That was what I figured out as a kid.
Only the Bible is yhe Truth.
Denomination is just demon in nation misspelled. Just like Santa is Satan misspelled.
While the bible nowhere mentions denominations, and does not condemn them either, I wouldn't call them demonic. And I'll give you props for your creative take on the word, but it's just that, nothing but your creative take on a word.
I'm not big on denominations, but they do help Identify groups of Christians. On the other hand the down side is they can cause divisions among Christians. So all this to say, If you like biblically based doctrinally sound denominations, which are rare, then that's fine. If you like non denominational churches that's fine. But they also have their down side. Accountability. There's a danger in straying from biblically based sound doctrine as well. But non denominations are good as long as you can find a good one which can be just as much of a challenge.
@@mariosangermano As I had heard somewhat recently, “non-“ denominational have their own sort of “denominational” hierarchy. 🤷🏻
I have to say I agree and disagree with you. I agree that denominations are not biblical, but for a totally different reason. I'm not as concerned about church politics or hierarchy. Especially since the Bible doesn't teach one pastor running the church. All thru the New testament mentions elders. Plural. ie: Acts 11:30, 14:23, 1Timothy 5:17, Titus 1:5, 1Peter 5:1, and so on. Ephesians 4:11-13. Teachs us church hierarchy, and for what reason. V. 13, Till we all come in the unity of the faith. The church is the most divided institution on the planet. Especially when it comes to how to be saved, or born again. There is about 200 denominations in America. All preaching the Bible a little bit differently. That is confusion, not unity. The church was built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. The Rock Christ Jesus. These denominations has forsaken the foundation and laid a new foundation. That's why most don't even preach the gospel anymore. They don't preach against sin. The problem with denominations isn't hierarchy, it's doctrine. In the last days, the church will not endure sound doctrine. They've cast away Repentance. They've cast away baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, washing away your sins. They've cast away the gift of the Holy Ghost. Speaking in other tongues. They've cast away the walk in the Spirit and spiritual gifts. Remember the parable of the ten virgins. Five were wise and five were foolish. The five foolish let their oil run out. They didn't keep themselves full of the Holy Ghost. They lost out. Acts 2:38, And Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for the promise is unto you and to your children and those who are a far off even as many as the Lord our God shall call. God is still calling. Have you obeyed his word?
Denominations are fine. Denominationalism is sin.
And so is anti-denominationalism. Because it's just as factionalist as the Denominationalist is.
Also, historic Baptist associationalism does not necessitate the creation of different offices in the way you claim.
Okay before i even watch this i will say, i have always disliked the idea of denominations..( pet doctorines produce piety pride. the bible is very clear about sectarianism. with that said 😂 lets see if we agree.
I will say this, the sourthern baptist convention, they use Lifeway who provide "quartlies" which are bible study study guides, and many times they have left out MAJOR lessons in the bible one for example the burning bush...also Lifeway also sells/promotes some false teachers books in their online catalog. Its worth looking into. One Sunday our teacher was like
" we gotta stick to the" quarterly" ...it really caught our attention, and we've been discussing it since, to the point of researching Lifeway....it would seem Lifeway has been pulling some publications of false doctorine but not all, and to be called the " arm " of the southern baptist convention...youd think false doctorine would be a big no no to them.
Wow, people are dying and GOING TO HELL and you guys waste your time using ur platform to talk about crap like THIS. PREACH THE GOSPEL. YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS THAT DONT AMOUNT TO CRAP WHEN IT COMES RIGHT DOWN TO IT. NO DENOMINATION HAS A CORNER ON TRUTH. THERES TOO MANY OF THESE GUYS TRYING TO THEOLOGY INFLAT THEIR EGOS INSTEAD OF CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.