It’s not a civil rights movement, it’s a religion - Helen Joyce | Zsófilter
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ธ.ค. 2023
- “For anyone who’s confused: they are trying to confuse you.”
Why does academia pretend that the sex binary isn’t real?
And how do we know it is real?
What happens when we introduce a falsehood into law?
Why are so many young women cheering on the idea of gender identity?
Is feminism to blame for the mess we’re in?
In this special episode of Zsófilter, I talk to Helen Joyce, the author of ""Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality"", which was also translated to Hungarian with the title Transzneműek. Helen has a PhD in mathematics and she is also a journalist. She was a long-time staffer at The Economist, and she is currently working with the campaign group Sex Matters.
We discuss basic facts of biology, queer theory’s capture of academia, the history of transsexualism and the gendered soul as a religious concept and a luxury belief. Helen also explains why it is dangerous to argue for gender identity affirmation by quoting suicide rates and why we desperately need to hang on to women’s sex segregated spaces.
*Helen mistakenly attributed David Reimer's case to Harry Benjamin. It was in fact John Money, not Harry Benjamin.
Find out more about Sex Matters:
sex-matters.org
Helen’s book in Hungarian (Transzneműek):
www.libri.hu/konyv/helen_joyc...
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*Helen mistakenly attributed David Reimer's case to Harry Benjamin. It was in fact John Money, not Harry Benjamin.
Dr. Joyce is easily the most perceptive and eloquent person in this whole debate. She's fantastic.
Helen always brings something new to every interview, and this was no exception, I really marvel at her ability to engage and make us reflect!
Doesn't she just? She's incredible.
I agree! And I would also like to thank the host for not asking the questions she's had to answer so many times.
Yes I was thinking this too. I like the way she can often put things in context of social history.
Yes, 100%. I'm in awe. I can only think it's because a person as intellectually sharp, curious and prodigiously knowledgeable as her has many vast, varied reservoirs of potential arguments that she can draw on, depending on the specific interview, audience and purpose. More simply, the bigger the brain, the more you can fit in there!
I’ve seen this kind of comment on a Helen Joyce video several times and it’s nice to see so many of us agree, she really always succeeds in bringing something new and fascinating. What a woman.
Dear Helen, I won't use someone's pronouns for the same reason I won't talk to a schizophrenic's imaginary friends! Love what you do...
I disagree. It is only politeness to respect people who are not trying to infringe our rights.
I use always the correct pronoun when I am talking to someone: YOU
As always, a great talk, when it comes to Helen Joyce. Just one thing- the Reimer twins tragedy is not of Harry Benjamin's making, but it was John Money who decided to turn Bruce into Brenda.
Yes thanks I was just about to say that.
Simple error to make
Ah thanks for that, I was starting to think I'd got it wrong.
John Money certainly deserves all the credit for the two suicides and for really highlighting the disgusting delusional state of social science research. Dont let the evidence get in the way of your theory.
Reimer's is a sadly fascinating story that really reinforces the influence and power of "social transition". For "affirming care" to work everyone needs to play the game and reinforce a delusion hence the child adopts pro-nouns, name change and is celebrated.
Nice to have such a well-informed interviewer who has obviously given this a lot of thought, but still gives Helen Joyce space to speak.
Yes, liked the moderator's comments..very intelligent and thoughtful.
Dr Joyce is one of the brilliant minds of our generation. Just a pleasure to listen to and learn from.
So much respect for HJ! Thanks for sharing!
An extra-brilliant interview with Joyce. Just when I think I know all of the arguments & angles, she comes in with something I have not properly considered before - this time other points are re. young women, feminism, and those working with vulnerable women.
Helen is such a brilliant speaker. We are fortunate this issue brought her keen mind into a new public realm out of the pages of The Economist.
The Interviewer is fabulous. This is, hands down, the best interview I have listened to with Helen Joyce. THANK-YOU
Excellent discussion. I always enjoy listening to Helen.
thank you for this interview!
Remember: It's not you, it's them.
Yet again Helen’s laser-like, artful articulation of a confused subject delivers new and powerful insights.
Well done Helen
Excellent interview!! Helen.has really outdone herself in drawing together conclusions on our Female oppression and why young women continue to support the Trans movement that is directly hurting them or will in the longrun. Privilege thinking indeed....The interviewer was also excellent!
Fantastic show. Really enjoyed the interviewer's outspokenness. Proud to be a Hungarian 😂!
It is a true joy to listen to Helen Joyce. (And also reading her book, Trans - When Ideology Meets Reality.)
Straight to the heart of the matter! I love to hear such plain talk from my sisters… thank you both.
As always, on point. Common sense and logic.
What an excellent interview & discussion. This was also especially helpful to explain who are ones pushing this, promoting this and funding this. A lot of people don't like hearing where this horrendous ideology comes from and who's warped thinking this started with, and who it belongs to now. But I don't think we can get ourselves healthy as a society without knowing where the illness lies.
Brilliant women. Thank you.
Helen is so articulate. Shes correct on it all
Helen Joyce is a rockstar
Amazing conversation. Grateful immensely. On point.
Wasn't it John Money who was involved with those twin boys?
The Reimer twins
Reamers had a horrible life
Yes.
Yes, it was John Money who believed that that acting and feeling like a boy or girl was due to nurture not nature - I think he invented the word " Transgender" instead of
" Transsexual" in the 50ies?60ies.
Yes, it was Money, not Benjamin.
PSA: in the section that starts from 20:00 on, Helen Joyce - who is ususally very accurate - gives a factually wrong account of historical events by conflating the stories of two men of two different generations - Harry Benjamin (a medical doctor born in Germany in 1885) & John Money (a psychologist born in New Zealand in 1921). Then Joyce goes on to attribute John Money's heinous role in the tragic case of David Reimer to Harry Benjamin.
Money, not Benjamin, is the gender identity theorist working at Johns Hopkins who told the parents of twin boys from Canada that their toddler son whose penis was mostly burnt off during a botched circumcision should be "raised as a girl." At Money's direction, the little boy, David Reimer, had surgery to remove his testicles and the remainder of his penis and construct a facsimile of a vulva & vaginal opening.
John Money, not Benjamin, is the influential figure who worked with chidlren with DSDs in the 1950s and came up and spread the cockamamie ideas about "gender identity" in babies & young children that have gained widespread acceptance and led to the creation of the "trans child" in the 21st century.
Money's theories paved the way for the brand-new phenomenon of healthy, normally developed boys like Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley and Trinity Neal being described as "born in the wrong body" and designated "trans" when they're as young as 2, 3 and 4.
Whislt both Benjamin and Money were quacks, their life stories and contributions to the current "trans craze are very different. Benjamin primarily worked with, and focused on, full-grown adults he considered "transsexuals." Benjamin treated at least one teenage boy he diagnosed as TS and prescribed Big Pharma estrogen for him. Benjamin might have treated other teens too. But AFAIK Benjamin never treated babies & toddlers with DSDs or other genital anomalies, nor did he advise the parents of babies & toddlers to give their children genital surgeries and/or to raise them as the opposite sxe.
John Money is the man who focused on "sex change" & the imposition of an opposite-sxe "gender identity" in babies, tots and little kids. Money advocated & advised that (mostly male) babies & toddlers with genital anomalies - from DSDs, accidents as well as so-called "micropenis" in healthy males - undergo surgical castration & cosmetic remodeling of their genitals so that they could be raised to acquire the "gender identity" of the opposite sxe. Money also told parents, other men in medicine, & the wider world that it would be best for children "raised as" the opposite-sxe to be lied to and gaslit their whole lives so they'd never find out the truth.
I was just coming to make the same correction. I figured someone got to it first, but just in case....
Thank you for your contribution.
It's a strange mistake because she has written & spoken about John Money & the Reimer twins
She did get the name wrong in the flow of speaking in attributing the Reimer twins' treatment to Benjamin rather than Money. She was initially speaking about Benjamin but failed to mention Money when she went on to talk about the twins. However, Benjamin was actually a much more significant figure in the whole story than Money. Benjamin laid the ground from which Money worked. It was Benjamin who founded what is now known as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which remains the leading source of quackery on this whole issue. Money only dealt with those two unfortunate boys. Benjamin's legacy affects pretty much every so-called transgender person to this day, and the entire medical edifice around it. Money is famous because he was a shameless self-promoter. Benjamin's impact has been greater by orders of magnitude.
This is all so ominous..it is chilling. .
It is a cult
It’s heartening to hear feminists acknowledge it was a terrible mistake to deny reality. Julie Bindel held her hands up to doing just that during a recent interview.
I’ve been called both an MRA and a TERF because I stand up for the truth.
Calling it a belief clearly frames the irrationality of the whole thing.
I'm glad Helen said that this is up to women to take care of because women have always taken care of these things. That's just the nature of human existence. And one of the major sex differences between men and women - levels of emotional intelligence. Just heard Louise Perry saying to Chris Williamson that on average a man with an IQ of 130 has the same emotional intelligence as a woman with an IQ of 70. Sounds about right. Without adequate levels of emotional intelligence men can't even recognize a problem, let alone solve it. And that's a evolutionary thing based on millions of years of men as protectors. Through 99% of human existence, men's attention has focused externally looking out for threats and predators and women look internally watching the children and connecting with other women. Women notice social problems because their attention is on the social dynamic. And if men weren't looking out for predators, I as a human, wouldn't be here typing this message now. Don't think I'm ungrateful, any gentlemen reading this, that my line survived this far.
May I ask, have you ever heard of and believe in the theological concept of COMPLEMENTARIANISM?
"Emotional intelligence IQ (EQ?)of 70...?" Never have I heard more condescending,ridiculous,arrogant,deviant anti-male psychopath "enriching" our public discourse with such pathetic feelings of impotent grandeur and fake confidence.
You my love have never met a man or have ever been in a realy tough situation.
"Women and children first" is because we want to remove liabilities from the scene ASAP in case of any emergency.
That's where you belong with your "emotional intelligence of 140" - together with other children.
Sounds like a load of bollocks to me.
@@lewreed1871 Wow, what a great counter argument! You really decimated me on that. Oh wait, you didn't make a single point, just a knee jerk reaction from a gigantic knee jerk. How unusually to find such things on the internet. Lol I haven't seen such sparkling displays of intellect since.....third grade. What's the matter , you couldn't spell 'nuh uh'. Lol
@@cynthiajohnson9412 Your comment didn't merit anything more than what I said. It's like something you half-remembered from a magazine in a dentist's waiting room.
I love Helen Joyce . She's so attiviste . I Wish i was her friend .
Hello to Helen. Great woman.
loved this. i love Helen.
I think most identity politics has become like a cult actually.
When i was young it was common for a new mom to be asked "is it a boy or a child"
Excellent!
56:17 hahaha. Love what you say about Matt’s film.
And the tribe in Africa. He interviewed the most conservative of them
Matt is goofy
Brilliant!
it's hard to believe that doctors actually offer options for these disgusting surgeries.....
35:30 just listening to that part now… How do these doctors sleep at night? Frankenstein stuff
Fighting a neo religion like a modern day Hitchens !!
Biological sex is pretty obvious. Gender, as a concept, isn't so simple. It could refer to masculinity or femininity; it could refer to gender roles in society; we don't all agree with what the term even means. Despite some people being gender nonconforming, we should at least understand that gender is closely correlated with biological sex for most people. It's not just something that is arbitrarily conjured by one's mind. It's not just a social construct either, as if you can socialize anyone to be feminine or masculine by upbringing alone. I can see where some rare individuals can successfully transition to live as the opposite sex, but the whole idea of trans has been distorted, by all these young people making up gender identities that don't exist, and then make up a whole new set of neopronouns. Gender self identification messed up the whole concept of gender, and it allows biological males to enter women's spaces. That's what I really can't fathom.
Helen recounts a famous John Money's case and says it's Harry Benjamin's Look up John Money - you'll see she's got his name wrong.
43:40 It’s diabolical.
❤
I like how Moldbug called hardcore types "The Atheocracy." They are just as controlling as a terrible theocracy and will outcast any skeptics, critics, and doubters. I won't tolerate theocrats. I won't tolerate the athocracy. All totalitarians go screw off.
What bothers me is that there are always going to be some people distressed over their identity. Now the systems wants epopel to do almost anything other than tolerate their existing anatomy.
21:51 Someone just hurry up and end the circumcision scam in the USA. I swear, having something that bans circumcision in the anti trans youth laws is going to be awesome.
Someone cut off more than they should have, and made normal sex impossible for me. I never found out until far too late, because I didn't have sexual opportunities.
Repeal the GRA
i do not agree it is cartesian dualism. it is more platonism. i think descartes is epistemolgical, not ontological.
When their penchant was to argue for something like a "gendered soul", that is a dualistic, ghost-in-the-machine argument. The idea that one can be "born in the wrong body" is even more directly Cartesian.
57:06 "Reality based feminism". That's good for men.
There are two and only two sexes . This is as mathematically exact as anything in physics .
48:06 Access to the female body (access to sex) has great value for most men. This desire has consequences. Each society makes blueprints for behavior, 'civil behavior'.
In rigid (conservative) societies experiments are not allowed.
In loose (progressive) societies experiments are allowed. Predictors (evil people) will try to take advantage from this situation.
Indeed. Also, nothing could perfectly snuff out the world's oldest profession.
I’m confused about comment about statues of men in clothes as I think of all the statues of naked men I’ve seen…
Yeah what the heck?
@@chernobylcoleslaw6698 Naked statues of roman men with small penises. Read small penis on statues was a sign virtue or intelligence or something like that. Big one were seen as something bad. I forget why.
@@cgpcgp3239It's part of the Roman aesthetic of restraint and temperance. When they depicted Barbarians, they drew them with giant dicks. The idea was that the other people were too brutish and stupid to control their erections. The romans had the same attitude about this as they did about drinking. All civilized men drank wine, but only barbarians got drunk.
@@cgpcgp3239They were considered animalistic, less able to subordinate their base desires to the intellect and higher self. Brutish. Something like that.
Tolmácsot kérek 🙃
a really enlightening view of this issue can be found in a Ted talk by Paula Stone Williams, previously Paul. She is a transgender woman who has a birds eye view of this situation from, literally, both sides of the divide. I found myself moved and intrigued by her discussion of her treatment as a male and then as a female. The latter was more revealing than any more 'dispassionate' or clinical discussion of the issue.
I agree--I found her talk very enlightening and moving, too. Its worth watching more than once.
His talk. Will always be male
Where's Helen's invitation to a Ted Talk?
Ok Ok I certainly get it but I have been farming for over 60 years and I have seen some strange things in the animal world. Like hermaphrodites, They have both sex apparatus and seem for the most part to be neither one or the other. Once had a chicken that appeared as a Roster Crowed every morning and Presented as a cock mating with the hens but laid an egg every day. Was it a cock or a hen? I still think there are only two true genders but what about these others?
Why does the struggles of black people always have to be compared to this. Black liberation has not been accomplished yet. Please do not compare the struggles of black people to this confusion because you actually minimize the effects of colonialism on African people around the world.
I think that is a shift from classical progressivism, in wich you wanted to fight against " bad " tradition and in favor of science and reason to a new form of reactionary thought that want to reject the real concept of science and " good" tradition, the same tradition that once was the foundation of progressivism
'Young women are not powerful'. Are you sure?
If they are powerful, why are they staying home from school sick, or staying dehydrated all day, to avoid using school toilets that have been made mixed sex? I don’t think young women have much social or political power.
Yeah seriously
@@chernobylcoleslaw6698 women are the gatekeepers of sex. Power can be derived from this situation.
Men consider (access to) young women extremely valuable.
Yeah I thought twice about that top. They may not be running the world or financial powerhouses (yet) but they do have influence. Eg working in higher education, institutions are very beholden to the student voice, which tends to be entitled young women with a cause, currently the causes tend to be gender ideology & self diagnosed neurodiversity
There is not only a 'gap' in the fossil record, but a complete dearth, Helen.
What, no fossils?
48:40 Helen argues that females consider their (female) body as shamefull. I think, in essence, that's not a correct understanding of the situation. The average male body has way less value than the average female body.
Yeah, I was curious about that comment too.
Women are the bringers and nurturers of life and are the least expendable.
"Helen argues that females consider their (female) body as shamefull [sic]." No she doesn't.
Girls often start out ashamed of their bodies, embarrassed by the fact they won't become boys, they will be weaker (they believe lesser) and have to deal with the icky things that boys don't. They feel ripped off - why is Bobby running around doing this or that and I have to think about pads or if others know I'm wearing them, etc. Girls have to start thinking about time lines and planning. They deal with overt changes that embarrass them at times; breasts are considered part of their sexual anatomy and there they are right under your chin where you can't hide them. The society they live in places a great deal of importance on their looks and girls absorb this fact long before they go through puberty. Girls & even women will often resort to wearing baggy or oversized things to be less conspicuous as they hide themselves from scrutiny.
And then you have certain groups that brutally mock & fetishize women's anatomy right in their faces on tv and media. They are leered at and jeered at as some kind of joke on humanity by men in buckets of paint and padded costumes doing any vulgar thing they can get away with on screen as they parody women. It's no wonder when they are marketed this way, that girls and women suffer a psychological blow.
It's all too easy today to destroy a girl's feeling of self worth by taking away dignity. Basic rights regarding safeguarding and privacy depend on recognizing women as a legitimate separate biology from men, understood by science and confirmed in law.
Allowing men to pretend themselves into a woman's space is just another cruelty for women who lose these rights when they are compelled to cater to those men's lies, delusions and fantasies - over their own female reality.
I think both men and women have great value - for many shared reasons and each in his or her own way; I can't rate them as more or less superior.
Had to be a man's comment!
1:01:50 Helen: "Woman shelters are underfunded". Come on Helen, are woman domestic violence shelters underfunded compared to domestic violence shelters for men? Helen, on this issue you are wrong. I think in general feminists focus to much on females. "Realistic feminism" should not exclude men's issues automatically. Focus on the whole issue will give better templates (blueprints) for "civil conduct". Better
for women and better for men. Current feminism is harmful for women and harmful for men.
'Feminists focus too much on females' yeah & environmentalists focus too much on the environment & animal rights activists focus too much on animals...etc
Where is your evidence of a disproportionate unmet need for male domestic abuse services?
Oh come on. Get real. The percentage of abused females VS abused males is totally disproportionate. Women are prey. Just look at events occurring in the Middle East. Every time there’s war, women are raped.
This is idiotic. Yes, *compared to need* women’s shelters are underfunded compared to men. Ffs, you bald pot plant, what’s the ratio of men killed by spouses to women?
I love Helen's victomology. Young women are the biggest advocates because patriarchy has made them ashamed of their bodies and NOT because women are more inclined to performative acts of morality than men, which has historically been the case (Mary Whitehouse, Tipper Gore, the Temperance movement, the entire Victorian era?!!!). Helen has this weird belief that women are inert and incapable of agency. When they do morally questionable things, it is because circumstance has forced them into it.
Bullshit. Girls are conditioned from a young age to 'be nice'. Being anatomically more vulnerable to male violence than males, it makes sense that women instinctively try to not 'rock the boat' where men are concerned - in some cases, there lives depend on not bothering men.
Then there's narcisissm: a significant minority of the population clings to the Far Left idea that the world is divided into oppressors and oppressed. They give themselves a massive pat on the back for showing sympathy towards those they deem 'oppressed'.
Bizarrely, men who call themselves women are seen as 'more oppressed' or more vulnerable than real women, and so people who buy extreme Left Wing bullshit feel superior for prioritising the desires of men over those of women. They're being totally irrational and very vain.
Or, and this is crazy, women recognize the movement of transphobia as rooted in patriarchy.
Not a coincidence that patriarchal Republicans/Tories care A LOT about this. Think they have your interests in mind as a woman?
@@connor5669 Claiming to be "trans" is a subjective metaphysical claim, where the claimants are demanding their supposed subjective experience should override the physical reality of others. If they weren't making these demands, there would be no problem (ie, males stopped demanding access to female-only spaces, protections and activities. Stopped trying to redefine the term "woman", and stopped demanding to legally be regarded as the opposite sex of what they are, ie actually followed their own mantra of "sex and gender are separate").
The research activists keep trying to push regarding brain activity, is completely contradicted by the very people doing the research. I've seen a number of activist offer up Sapolsky as support for their claims. However when discussing the issue Sapolsky fully contradicts himself, admitting that the sex of an individual cannot be determined by observing brain activity, nor can it be discerned through post-mortem dissection - thus no observable "gender identity" traits are in any way possible through brain scans etc. - Yet the lie keeps being peddled, activist lies spread easier than the facts that contradict and refute their claims.
@@connor5669 paraphillic men demanding to be in our sex based spaces and forcing us to lie about what we see, hear and feel around men, is the absolute epitome of misogyny.
Creationism is true.
For a sufficient value of stupidity…
Helen us still Trapped in her religious bigotries. It’s a common and unfortunate occurrence that takes slot of time and self awareness.
She us also trapped in all the regular faulty thinking that makes for social contagion and immoral panics where actual hard won data and peoples personal pleas to leave them alive means nothing to her.
She should be put aside.
You make no sense. She does.
Oh FFS, no one is saying there are more than two sexes. Gender does exist on spectrum. There are more feminine men and more masculine women. This is just a distraction keep us arguing.
Gender EXPRESSION does.
But gender IS sex and IS only divided into two.
@marlonmoncrieffe0728 no, gender isn't sex. Sex is a biological fact. Gender is what society deems appropriate. What's the difference between a kilt and a skirt?
@@briannyob7799 "Gender" is a word buttoned-up Americans took to using because they thought it impolite to use the term "sex". All of the extra meaning "gender" has acquired is surplus to requirements and like most clumsy language, only serves to obfuscate and confuse rather than define and clarify. A man in drag is a man in drag. An effeminate man is an effeminate man, according to his own nature, and the same goes for masculine women. There is no need to introduce "gender" as though it refers to a completely separate concept. That's just metaphysical guff which went out with Descartes.
@@lewreed1871pretty sure gender refers to a psychological sense of self as well as a category of social relations.
@@connor5669 I'm happy to disabuse you. It's got nothing to do with "psychological sense" of anything. That's one of the obfuscating political functions attached to the term. In feminism, it pertains to social relations between the sexes, as in "the gender pay gap". Psychology, or indeed anything scientific, doesn't come into it. Its accrued meaning is political, and you can read some Orwell on the deleterious effect on language of political boondoggling.