Great topic! As a LEO, I run a S&W M&P 15 TS (14.5" with flash hider) with a Strike Eagle LPVO and light. I've run it in numerous carbine courses and, as long as I do my job, it hits what I need it to. It has ALWAYS run, even with crappy surplus ammo and when more far more expensive gucci guns and custom builds are going down. My DMR is an 18" custom build with higher magnification and the right goodies to do the job. I wouldn't ask my DMR to clear buildings and run carbine fighting courses because that's not the way it's optimized. By the same token, I'm not asking consistant sub-MOA performance out of my duty rifle. Each is a tool and has it's place.
@@rustyshackleford2723 I have a 1-8x Strike Eagle on my 11.5 AR Pistol and let me tell you. It is perfect. I like the additional magnification compared to the 1-6x just for additional target identification. It all comes down to "What is this firearm going to be used for?"
I wonder if it really is the ''air-travel'' bending that buffer tube down, or if it actually is due to the odd geometry of the stock, and the non-linear force or torque that is being applied to the tube when shouldering it. My money is on the latter.
With duty triggers, biology plays a big part. They are heavier because in the heat of the moment when your adrenaline spikes you don’t want a negligent discharge. When it all goes down, you don’t even notice the extra weight or grit. Many would say, “Just keep your finger off the trigger.” Few will remember that in their first firefight. And even still, there are many more negligent discharges than we would like to admit.
The appearance of the firearm is actually very important. You all clown, but the schmuck who had "you're f*cked" on his AR-15 dust cover did a huge disservice to the profession.
My experience in the last decade pushing a black and white, the vast majority of duty AR15 are all 16" guns with red dots. LPVO is becoming more common but SBR and suppressors are exceedingly rare outside of SWAT units. Again, that's changing, but very slowly. Currently fighting the battle for SBR/Suppressors at my current department and not succeeding, sadly. I guess long term disability payments trump the cost of suppressors...
@ES458 That's a fair point. My counter to that was in my initial post. When one does finally use one, you are talking about a lifetime of longterm disability payments instead of $500 to $1500 an officer for a device which can last nearly forever. A neighboring agency had one of their officers, 32 years old, shoot someone with his AR and is 75% deaf in his right ear and 60% in his left ear. He is no longer eligible to be a police officer as a result of that hearing damage even after getting implants. If he lives until the average age of males, that'll be, what... 35 more years of disability payments? For the cost of ONE officer's disability payments for the next 35 years they could have equipped the entirety of their patrol units with suppressed AR's... hell, they could have gotten some pretty pimp rifles and suppressors for the cost of ONE officer's disability payments for the rest of his life.
I appreciate the discussion, it gives me things to consider when thinking about future set ups and how to keep it sensible in both form and function for my needs.
When you were talking about the 1033 program where smaller departments borrow equipment from the government its very common in my area. At my first police department I worked at they issued me a full auto M16a1 with no brass deflector. It ran great but I always thought it was kind of funny issuing us early m16s. Most of the guys had their rifles temporarily blocked from full auto but since I was a vet they never blocked mine. So I got to practice with full auto all the time. In real use it never would have seen the fun switch FYI but it was cool to have.
Haha my department was running those same full auto m16s when I first started too. It's fun to see real prices of history but I agree it felt a little silly. We switched to a more modern AR shortly after I started. Ours all had the giggle switchs still operational.
Ive been running a POF renegade plus with sprinco enhanced buffer and extractor springs, a unity tactical fast mount with aimpoint comp m5, surefire scout 600df with tapeswitch, magpul sl-s stock, and bcm mod 3 pistol and foregrip. It is set up for defensive use, but could easily be used for competition. It has been super reliable. I like that it has a reliable adjustable gas block that stays put but is easy to manipulate if required. The rifle has full ambi controls whicj comes in handy for switching shoulders and faster bolt release on reloads. I do wish their drop in trigger had the ability to take apart to switch springs, but picked up a triarc mil spec for a back up and will be switching to a geissele when the springs on the POF would need replaced.
As far as tail tipping guidelines. Starting with the weight forward as you add weight to the back is the way we do it. The weight to the aft of the main gear is unsupported and could potentially tail tip the plane.
I have a BCM 11.5 AR pistol (thanks ATF) that just got upgraded from a Vortex Spitfire to a Strike Eagle 1-8x. I moved the canted Vortex Venom I had on it to my Remington 870. That is my do-all rifle. Has angled foregrip, Surefire light and Steiner IR/laser. Comes in at around 8.4 lbs. I live in a condo so my home defense set up is a bit different. I have a pistol caliber carbine with a Vortex Crossfire, angled foregrip and a streamlight flashlight. I worry about overpenetration which is why I also have a PCC. It is also small enough for my gf to use in the case of emergency. Great topics and discussion.
You hit on something that is my mindset as far as CQB. Most engagements are going to be 50yds or less. A 9mm Banshee @ just over 5lbs w/o optics and ammo will do the job just fine and would be my go to for CQB. Glock magazines enable you to carry a side arm that uses the same mags and ammo that can interchange between both guns. Couple that with the 9 being 25% less weight brings this system into the jack of all trades which I like better than the master of one. Clearing a building, a shotgun would be my weapon of choice.
I don’t know what duty means but my match conditioned AR15-A4 I use in NRA Service Rifle Division of Long-Range Competition is virtually identical to the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle produced by the USAMU, except my rifle’s barrel is not flutted. Thus, my rifle is heavier. I would not want to carry my match conditioned rifle so I also have a stock FN15-A4 upper for some shooting that does not need exacting accuracy for desired results. At any rate, I am a fan of the USAMU SDMR concept as it solves the weight issue without degrading accuracy. Creds: Military Rifle Instructor assisting USAMU deliver SDM, TTT, and SAFS Training, and US Distinguished Rifleman.
Fun topic and great podcast. I am issued a 10.5 FN SBR for my duty weapon and have some flexibility as far as goodies go (provided I pay out of pocket for them). That being the case, I run the same "duty grade" red dot, flash light, and accessories on my personally owned 12.5 IWI Zion-15 as I do on my duty rifle. My IWI rifle serves as a home defense and light competition gun. My theory is I want my actual duty gun to be pretty close to the gun I use for sport and home defense for the sake of consistency in movements and tactics. I admit I'm not a high end competitor by any means. However, I haven't ever really felt like I needed my more or less in either realm, with the exception of running a non-milspec trigger in my personal rifle.
Could I ask what brand/model that fixed stock is? Being from an AR unfriendly state collapsable stocks are not welcome and an A2 stock just doesn't do it for me :) Thank you!
Controversial Opinion: The Vortex Spitfire 5x w/ offset RDS is fastest, lightest, and most forgiving setup for the vast majority of shooters and situations. You get 23 ft of FOV @ 100m, 2.7” of eye relief with a great eye box in a package that only weighs 16 oz! I suspect the popularity of the LPVO in competition comes from stage design. I never see close-far-close without movement, anything that involves compromised angles or support side shooting. That kind of shooting is much more favorable to RDS+Magnifier or Prism Scope+Offset RDS. I think that’s why you see more of those kinds of in competitions like 2 Gun Action Challenge matches and the Tactical Games. I don’t know everything so if I’m super wrong, let me know! NOTE: I do have a Razor Gen III so it’s not like I’m a LPVO hater but I don’t think they’re as good of an option for as many shooters and situations as the zeitgeist would have us believe.
Money on a barrel? Yes and yes for re-barrel need as button rifled barrels will usually give up holding MOA at Long-Range at around 1800 rounds and cut rifled barrels will give up MOA at Long-Range at about 3000 rounds. The wear is all about throat erosion making lead rifling a consistency issue.
Defensive handgun - it should be light and small enough to carry in your pocket or you won’t have it when you need it. Competition gun - is whatever gives an advantage because of the arbitrary rules involved in a particular game. Inside the home defense - 12 gauge for one shot stops.
It would be nice then if you offered a higher mount for your Micro3x magnifier for the reasons mentioned in the video that higher mounts can be useful.
a friend of mine goes on a out he only uses what the professionals use. which is right to a certain extent. me on the other hand if something works, it works.
I think the reliability issue is a concern when random ammo comes into play. The issue with most Gammer guns are built by incompetent people and are setup to run one specific ammo if they run at all.
Duty gun needs to run ammo variety, be stupid reliable, fairly accurate, and cheep. I'm no race gunner, I'm a retired soldier. But I'm guessing price isn't as much of an issue for them. Accuracy is more important. And ammo is one type usually from what I know. And gas systems are ballenced better. So you get different tools for different jobs with those needs. Breaks for racers and flash hiders for fighters. Mill spec triggers so you don't shoot your buddies while clearing a room or getting surprised under stress. My ddm4a1 is way way better than my m4 in the army as a combat engineer. But it was double or triple the price my Duty gun most likely.
In fact very seldom do the beancounters who buy the tools needed for LE, security-outfits or The Army have to live, or more to the point die, because of the decision they make... and that's the reason why I think, really, it's not even a tool, but just a line in their budget sheet. And I'm not saying that Gucci-Rifles, or more to the point Gucci-parts in rifles are always better in all situations, but yeah... I for instance like my AR15 with 12"brl in .300"BLK, equipped with a 1-6 FFP LPVO and 45 degree angled offset RDS, still run folding BUIS (old habits and stuff...) and a SF X300Ultra at 12 o'clock to handle all my needs (real and imaginary) from 600m and in, while mobile. I also like my AR10 with 16"brl in .308"W equipped with a 1-10 FFP LPVO and 45 degree angled offset RDS, also folding BUIS and SF X300Ultra at 12 o'clock for anything out to 700m; but particularly against light skinned non armored vehicular counter ambush at closer distances, say 25 to 100m; but not in your face distances. For in your face distances against light skinned non armored vehicular counter ambush, or for bunkered down inside my home security room for that mater, i.e.: 25m and in, I like the TAC13 with the retention strap gizmo, RDS and SF X300Ultra at 9 o'clock out there almost by the muzzle, since I'm a right sided shooter. So my stuff is not "ultra-Gucci", but it's not the cheapest bib either because me, my family and my crew might have to live with the decisions I make about that stuff... and I think it's a distinction that matters.
perfect gun? give me a desert tech MDRX. short and reliable package. you can't swap uppers like with an AR, but the barrel is easy to swap. 16" 300 blk barrel or 20" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. even with the 20" barrel it it still isn't a long rifle. and if you wanted to do that with an AR you'd have to settle for 6.5 Grendel. through that new NGSW vortex LPVO on it and you'll be able to outshoot the SIG MCX spear all day. CQB or long rage. the 6.8 SIG fury is unnecessary.
@@JordanJimmyDavison I was talking about everyone playing the race cards and being so sensitive these days... LOL I've painted a few of my mine camo also but I kind of like plain old black rifles...
I know I can run my Daniel defense AR hard and trust it to go bang every time. Comp guns are nice, but when you run thousands of rounds you’ll notice the difference. Mil spec is a real thing. It’s been tested, battle proven.
Great topic!
As a LEO, I run a S&W M&P 15 TS (14.5" with flash hider) with a Strike Eagle LPVO and light. I've run it in numerous carbine courses and, as long as I do my job, it hits what I need it to. It has ALWAYS run, even with crappy surplus ammo and when more far more expensive gucci guns and custom builds are going down. My DMR is an 18" custom build with higher magnification and the right goodies to do the job. I wouldn't ask my DMR to clear buildings and run carbine fighting courses because that's not the way it's optimized. By the same token, I'm not asking consistant sub-MOA performance out of my duty rifle. Each is a tool and has it's place.
Thank you for your service!
I need to upgrade to a lvpo, still running a red dot.
@@rustyshackleford2723 If you want any recommendations give us a holler!
@@rustyshackleford2723 I have a 1-8x Strike Eagle on my 11.5 AR Pistol and let me tell you. It is perfect. I like the additional magnification compared to the 1-6x just for additional target identification. It all comes down to "What is this firearm going to be used for?"
The whole phrase is "jack of all trades, master of none, but still often better than a master of one"
Top shelf.
Wish I knew of more such quality TH-cam videos so worth our time.
I wonder if it really is the ''air-travel'' bending that buffer tube down, or if it actually is due to the odd geometry of the stock, and the non-linear force or torque that is being applied to the tube when shouldering it. My money is on the latter.
With duty triggers, biology plays a big part. They are heavier because in the heat of the moment when your adrenaline spikes you don’t want a negligent discharge. When it all goes down, you don’t even notice the extra weight or grit. Many would say, “Just keep your finger off the trigger.” Few will remember that in their first firefight. And even still, there are many more negligent discharges than we would like to admit.
The appearance of the firearm is actually very important. You all clown, but the schmuck who had "you're f*cked" on his AR-15 dust cover did a huge disservice to the profession.
Very nice pws blasters in the thumbnail. Love my mk111 mod 2 m. My favorite AR yet.... Long stroke ftw
My experience in the last decade pushing a black and white, the vast majority of duty AR15 are all 16" guns with red dots. LPVO is becoming more common but SBR and suppressors are exceedingly rare outside of SWAT units. Again, that's changing, but very slowly.
Currently fighting the battle for SBR/Suppressors at my current department and not succeeding, sadly. I guess long term disability payments trump the cost of suppressors...
@ES458 That's a fair point. My counter to that was in my initial post. When one does finally use one, you are talking about a lifetime of longterm disability payments instead of $500 to $1500 an officer for a device which can last nearly forever.
A neighboring agency had one of their officers, 32 years old, shoot someone with his AR and is 75% deaf in his right ear and 60% in his left ear. He is no longer eligible to be a police officer as a result of that hearing damage even after getting implants.
If he lives until the average age of males, that'll be, what... 35 more years of disability payments? For the cost of ONE officer's disability payments for the next 35 years they could have equipped the entirety of their patrol units with suppressed AR's... hell, they could have gotten some pretty pimp rifles and suppressors for the cost of ONE officer's disability payments for the rest of his life.
My 1971 Colt Sp1, runs flawless, sights or scope, hard to beat.
I appreciate the discussion, it gives me things to consider when thinking about future set ups and how to keep it sensible in both form and function for my needs.
When you were talking about the 1033 program where smaller departments borrow equipment from the government its very common in my area. At my first police department I worked at they issued me a full auto M16a1 with no brass deflector. It ran great but I always thought it was kind of funny issuing us early m16s. Most of the guys had their rifles temporarily blocked from full auto but since I was a vet they never blocked mine. So I got to practice with full auto all the time. In real use it never would have seen the fun switch FYI but it was cool to have.
Haha my department was running those same full auto m16s when I first started too. It's fun to see real prices of history but I agree it felt a little silly. We switched to a more modern AR shortly after I started. Ours all had the giggle switchs still operational.
Ive been running a POF renegade plus with sprinco enhanced buffer and extractor springs, a unity tactical fast mount with aimpoint comp m5, surefire scout 600df with tapeswitch, magpul sl-s stock, and bcm mod 3 pistol and foregrip. It is set up for defensive use, but could easily be used for competition. It has been super reliable. I like that it has a reliable adjustable gas block that stays put but is easy to manipulate if required. The rifle has full ambi controls whicj comes in handy for switching shoulders and faster bolt release on reloads. I do wish their drop in trigger had the ability to take apart to switch springs, but picked up a triarc mil spec for a back up and will be switching to a geissele when the springs on the POF would need replaced.
As far as tail tipping guidelines. Starting with the weight forward as you add weight to the back is the way we do it. The weight to the aft of the main gear is unsupported and could potentially tail tip the plane.
I have a BCM 11.5 AR pistol (thanks ATF) that just got upgraded from a Vortex Spitfire to a Strike Eagle 1-8x. I moved the canted Vortex Venom I had on it to my Remington 870. That is my do-all rifle. Has angled foregrip, Surefire light and Steiner IR/laser. Comes in at around 8.4 lbs. I live in a condo so my home defense set up is a bit different. I have a pistol caliber carbine with a Vortex Crossfire, angled foregrip and a streamlight flashlight. I worry about overpenetration which is why I also have a PCC. It is also small enough for my gf to use in the case of emergency. Great topics and discussion.
You hit on something that is my mindset as far as CQB. Most engagements are going to be 50yds or less. A 9mm Banshee @ just over 5lbs w/o optics and ammo will do the job just fine and would be my go to for CQB. Glock magazines enable you to carry a side arm that uses the same mags and ammo that can interchange between both guns. Couple that with the 9 being 25% less weight brings this system into the jack of all trades which I like better than the master of one. Clearing a building, a shotgun would be my weapon of choice.
I don’t know what duty means but my match conditioned AR15-A4 I use in NRA Service Rifle Division of Long-Range Competition is virtually identical to the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle produced by the USAMU, except my rifle’s barrel is not flutted. Thus, my rifle is heavier. I would not want to carry my match conditioned rifle so I also have a stock FN15-A4 upper for some shooting that does not need exacting accuracy for desired results. At any rate, I am a fan of the USAMU SDMR concept as it solves the weight issue without degrading accuracy. Creds: Military Rifle Instructor assisting USAMU deliver SDM, TTT, and SAFS Training, and US Distinguished Rifleman.
Fun topic and great podcast. I am issued a 10.5 FN SBR for my duty weapon and have some flexibility as far as goodies go (provided I pay out of pocket for them). That being the case, I run the same "duty grade" red dot, flash light, and accessories on my personally owned 12.5 IWI Zion-15 as I do on my duty rifle. My IWI rifle serves as a home defense and light competition gun. My theory is I want my actual duty gun to be pretty close to the gun I use for sport and home defense for the sake of consistency in movements and tactics. I admit I'm not a high end competitor by any means. However, I haven't ever really felt like I needed my more or less in either realm, with the exception of running a non-milspec trigger in my personal rifle.
Thank you for your service!
Could I ask what brand/model that fixed stock is? Being from an AR unfriendly state collapsable stocks are not welcome and an A2 stock just doesn't do it for me :) Thank you!
The only downside to a LPVO is you have to be right behind that optic. Unlike a RDS
Thanks, I learnt a lot about aircraft boarding today LMAO
Always good content
Thanks for tuning in!
Yup, the M4 civilian version is fairly good, I just change the buttock and choose a optic.
Controversial Opinion: The Vortex Spitfire 5x w/ offset RDS is fastest, lightest, and most forgiving setup for the vast majority of shooters and situations. You get 23 ft of FOV @ 100m, 2.7” of eye relief with a great eye box in a package that only weighs 16 oz! I suspect the popularity of the LPVO in competition comes from stage design. I never see close-far-close without movement, anything that involves compromised angles or support side shooting. That kind of shooting is much more favorable to RDS+Magnifier or Prism Scope+Offset RDS. I think that’s why you see more of those kinds of in competitions like 2 Gun Action Challenge matches and the Tactical Games.
I don’t know everything so if I’m super wrong, let me know! NOTE: I do have a Razor Gen III so it’s not like I’m a LPVO hater but I don’t think they’re as good of an option for as many shooters and situations as the zeitgeist would have us believe.
My mind has wandered down that same road many times haha. Not a terrible idea IMHO
Ever heard of an Elcan Specter DR 1-4?
I think the Specter was a really good tool in 2007, and they remain a very interesting concept. But ultimately they were dead end.
What is the name of that stock on the gun at the top ?
Money on a barrel? Yes and yes for re-barrel need as button rifled barrels will usually give up holding MOA at Long-Range at around 1800 rounds and cut rifled barrels will give up MOA at Long-Range at about 3000 rounds. The wear is all about throat erosion making lead rifling a consistency issue.
Defensive handgun - it should be light and small enough to carry in your pocket or you won’t have it when you need it. Competition gun - is whatever gives an advantage because of the arbitrary rules involved in a particular game. Inside the home defense - 12 gauge for one shot stops.
It would be nice then if you offered a higher mount for your Micro3x magnifier for the reasons mentioned in the video that higher mounts can be useful.
Bro… Get the Spitfire 5x and run an offset (not piggyback) RDS!
Call in to Vortex, I think they have a 1.93 adapter for the micro magnifiers now.
a friend of mine goes on a out he only uses what the professionals use. which is right to a certain extent. me on the other hand if something works, it works.
I think the reliability issue is a concern when random ammo comes into play. The issue with most Gammer guns are built by incompetent people and are setup to run one specific ammo if they run at all.
Duty gun needs to run ammo variety, be stupid reliable, fairly accurate, and cheep. I'm no race gunner, I'm a retired soldier. But I'm guessing price isn't as much of an issue for them. Accuracy is more important. And ammo is one type usually from what I know. And gas systems are ballenced better. So you get different tools for different jobs with those needs. Breaks for racers and flash hiders for fighters. Mill spec triggers so you don't shoot your buddies while clearing a room or getting surprised under stress. My ddm4a1 is way way better than my m4 in the army as a combat engineer. But it was double or triple the price my Duty gun most likely.
In fact very seldom do the beancounters who buy the tools needed for LE, security-outfits or The Army have to live, or more to the point die, because of the decision they make... and that's the reason why I think, really, it's not even a tool, but just a line in their budget sheet. And I'm not saying that Gucci-Rifles, or more to the point Gucci-parts in rifles are always better in all situations, but yeah...
I for instance like my AR15 with 12"brl in .300"BLK, equipped with a 1-6 FFP LPVO and 45 degree angled offset RDS, still run folding BUIS (old habits and stuff...) and a SF X300Ultra at 12 o'clock to handle all my needs (real and imaginary) from 600m and in, while mobile.
I also like my AR10 with 16"brl in .308"W equipped with a 1-10 FFP LPVO and 45 degree angled offset RDS, also folding BUIS and SF X300Ultra at 12 o'clock for anything out to 700m; but particularly against light skinned non armored vehicular counter ambush at closer distances, say 25 to 100m; but not in your face distances.
For in your face distances against light skinned non armored vehicular counter ambush, or for bunkered down inside my home security room for that mater, i.e.: 25m and in, I like the TAC13 with the retention strap gizmo, RDS and SF X300Ultra at 9 o'clock out there almost by the muzzle, since I'm a right sided shooter.
So my stuff is not "ultra-Gucci", but it's not the cheapest bib either because me, my family and my crew might have to live with the decisions I make about that stuff... and I think it's a distinction that matters.
My faith in humanity dies a little bit every time I get off a plane.
Interesting
perfect gun? give me a desert tech MDRX. short and reliable package. you can't swap uppers like with an AR, but the barrel is easy to swap. 16" 300 blk barrel or 20" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. even with the 20" barrel it it still isn't a long rifle. and if you wanted to do that with an AR you'd have to settle for 6.5 Grendel. through that new NGSW vortex LPVO on it and you'll be able to outshoot the SIG MCX spear all day. CQB or long rage. the 6.8 SIG fury is unnecessary.
Three years to get 61 comments! Dang
Would vortex EVER consider producing rifles?
"They're scary because they are black in color" that was a bold statement in today's world!!! LMFAO
I painted mine camo so it’s not scary anymore.
@@JordanJimmyDavison I was talking about everyone playing the race cards and being so sensitive these days... LOL I've painted a few of my mine camo also but I kind of like plain old black rifles...
I know I can run my Daniel defense AR hard and trust it to go bang every time. Comp guns are nice, but when you run thousands of rounds you’ll notice the difference.
Mil spec is a real thing. It’s been tested, battle proven.
Lol you said dooty
😂😂😂
Did he say what his butt stock was?