I've never heard of a limit point even though I'm a learner driver but it makes so much sense. I see people all the time speeding around corners not knowing what they may come across just easing off makes complete sense.
Great explanation of something I've been doing instinctively all this time and never knew the science.behind the subconscious! I also look at road conditions .. mud, gravel, water, debris etc to avoid slips/ skids. Probably thanks to riding a motorbike first. I also always scan for safe escape routes in case someone coming the other way isn't being as in control as you. I find TH-cam dashcam vids are great for learning things to anticipate but ones like this are great too for reminding and explaining the basics of safe driving.
Thanks for your techniques Ashley, I don't have my own car, but often share the driving with a friend on long journeys, and these points are very beneficial to me... thanks again.
Easy to understand explanation to pass onto learners. Done instinctively by conscientious experienced drivers perhaps without realising how to best explain it to others. Thank you.
Hi Ashley, thanks for this video. I've seen a few videos but you've explained it best. Alot of us think we're good drivers.... I've been known to get fastest laps in go karting and years of driving experience, but still haven't been confident of knowing the speed of corners on unfamiliar country roads. I am glad you stressed that it's about being able to safely stop for the distance we see is clear. It was the catching up the limit point (to be off the gas/brake) that was the final piece in the jigsaw for me.... other TH-camrs rightly mentioned if the limit point is moving away but illustrated it moving right or left which confused me.
What brings limit points into sharp relief for me is when I'm on the A4 travelling out of London of an afternoon. At the top of Earls Court there's a phenomenon whereby, for much of the journey the sun is shaded by buildings and advertising hoardings, but then you cross over the railway and it suddenly catches you. It's a 30 limit road, but still you need to slow down whilst your eyes adjust, and woe betide the tailgater, who can cause havoc.
It is complex - when you are driving and watching a number of things - signs, road conditions, other drivers and vehicles, mirrors etc. - to look at a limit point and figure out if it is moving towards you, staying the same, creeping or firing away - it is much simpler to thnk in terms of "Can I see what is coming around that bend and will I be able to react to it at my current speed?" Although it means the same thing, it is more intuitive than to think consciously in terms of limit points. I find I get locked into the limit point and forget everything else around me when I do - especially when at speed. So I do not think of - is the limit point staying, coming at me or running away.
It's one reason why I hate strict speed limit rules... too many people are concentrating on their speed as what signs demand rather than reading the road, reading what other road users are doing. Limit points help you to look further than your car and bonnet. That's got to be a good thing.
Great video and explanations! I would like to see more of these - more situations, etc. Could you do? There are little videos on TH-cam that describe the concept so nicely up to the point.
Dont forget you can alter the limit point by road position, left bend be on the right of your lane, right bend be on the left of your lane. Once you understand and learn what is in Ashley's video you can exit corners faster without losing control as you will know where to progressively accelerate. The more of the road ahead you can see, the faster you can go.
Limit points need to be used in addition to the other clues on the road, such as slow signs on the road, warning of bend signs and chevrons on the bend. These signs were seen in the footage and should be included with limit point analysis.
Seriously - Learn to drive there’s much more than that to analyse on such roads. Limit point should be not used in addition to other clues but used as the primary source of information. You can be assessing limit points before you can even see “slow” written on the road surface. Thanks for watching and your input. You’ve also given me inspiration for a follow on video to this on the points you mention as well as others. Cheers. Ashley
It's not explicitly stated in the video (though it is very much in effect in practical terms) that the slower the limit point seems to be moving, the tighter the bend is. When approaching a wide bend, the limit point moves away from you from some distance out and continues to move even if you are moving quite quickly. When approaching a tight bend, the limit point may barely move as you approach (you will be catching up to the limit point as Ashley puts it). So, along with other evidence that you gather from your observations, it's a reasonable indicator of how sharp an upcoming bend is.
Quite simply if the distance that you can see to your limit point is REDUCING then you should REDUCE your speed accordingly If the limit point is going away from you then your vision down the road is INCREASING then you can INCREASE your speed. Simplessssss. Not so please read on. However on bends we may assume that our speed is right by the limit point but it may not be right for our emergency braking should we need to brake hard. Our training for safe stopping distance requires a few things and one that includes a straight line. So all the braking shown or referred to in road safety books is done in a straight line and our brakes can perform 100% of the time,whilst in a straight line. However if we are taking a corner then other forces come in to play and if one needs to brake hard we might find that we lose our tyre grip with the roads surface and then we spin or slide or usually lock the brakes and skid and so we cannot then say that we have 100% of braking capacity. Depending on the severity of the bend and our relative speed around it we might consider ourselves to be ok with regards to the distance to the limit point but we might only have 70% or less of braking capacity whilst on any bend. Yes we can brake but we need to be quite gentle in the way we do it otherwise we overload the steering and or our tyre grip and we can lose control of our vehicle, So understanding that we can no longer exercise 100% of our braking capacity on bends [ something we rarely if at all contemplate ] and we are required to brake in order to avoid hitting something on a bend then we must apply the brakes more gently. That will inevitably mean that we must travel a greater distance whilst braking. That in turn means that we can throw away the 2 second rule and the table of stopping distances in the H.C or advised by the DVSA as we will now, by having to brake on any bend will far exceed that safe stopping distance by having to brake more gently. All too often one slams the brakes on and a ,loss of control occurs and this is certainly more frequent on bends than on the straight and even more so on a wet road. We can all throw away the road safety books then as very few drivers will actually give twice the normal safe stopping distances when the roads are merely damp or wet.
Where and when it is safe to do so you can extend your limit points depending on where you position your vehicle by moving towards the centre line or kerb on corners. It does not make massive differences but does extend it.
Many drivers are unaware, as are some instructors that that limit point is not only being as far as they can see up that road which is unobstructed and is a distance that they can stop in on their side of the road and in the event of an emergency. It also covers whatever car or other vehicle that is then presently in front to them. Its not only as far as the eye can see up the road as that may be some quarter of a mile and with no other traffic ahead. Then that driver can drive at a safe, possibly maximum speed towards it but if one has a vehicle in front of you then that will dramatically reduce that seeing distance to the car in front to perhaps Lets say only. 120 ft. If that limit point is now being that vehicle and only some 120 ft ahead of us then if we are doing 60 mph on a 60 mph road we are in danger as we would need some 240 ft. to stop in. in an emergency. One cannot stop in 120ft at 60 mph. That's not possible so we must reduce our speed accordingly and the H.C would recommend at that distance if one should be 120 ft behind of being no more than 40 mph. . So we should always drive to the limit point as its not always just how far we can see up the road to say a bend in the road but its limited to how far the vehicle in front is to us. . That's our new limit point and we should be able to stop, on our side of the road and in that distance seen to be clear ie the safe stopping distance, should that vehicle in front come to a sudden and unexpected halt as if its been involved in a collision or broken down. Failure to stop in that moving limit point is actually tailgating which is not only dangerous but an offence in law.
Great video but a learner can't correlate limit points and use of speed it needs to be simpler what is speed limit on then road and what speed should I slow to before approaching bends?
The saying is 'You should always be able to stop in the distance that you see to be clear.... and on your own side of the road.' Limit points are the furthest that you can see clearly. It may be that there is now a car in front of you and that then is your new limit point, not what you had seen before so remember not to tailgate and to keep good safe distance behind it and that is the recommended stopping distances in either the Highways Code or the DVSA Handbook [ both are different ?] but never ever drive too close like the Thinking Distance only. If that car were to become involved in a collision or emergency and come to an immediate and sudden stop you need all the Safe Stopping distance to be able to stop and avoid colliding with it. Don't get too close and rely on that car or indeed the driver of that car braking, that is not and never was the safe stopping distances at all. Safer Driving All The Way.
As HGV driver we alwasy work with limit points, mostly required as the Gen public with their unlimited german engines and limited own understanding of limits of physics limit our movement and get us both very close very fast. I wish, UK public would get some mandatory motorway and hazardous weather driving training 😅
When approaching a bend with the thought l, can I stop on my own side of the road within the distance I can see to be clear? presupposes another question first, which is: Why might I need to stop? This is where taking in information is important and then making safe decisions rather that getting hung up on two parts of the road converging. Road signs, markings, road surface in general, hedges, footpaths or lack of, the list goes on, all these will help when making a decision about the speed which you think is safe to enter and drive through a bend. There are those bends, however, where the view is open, and the curve gradual, you can chase the limit point at the max speed limit safely in these situations. It’s fun 🤩
As per just about everything with driving / riding your eyes are your very best friends. Without observation nothing else is of much use. It's also crucial not to fixate as well. Many drivers will assess and consider a limit point in the way a racing driver will assess and consider the apex of a bend on a track. In the case of a track situation the apex does not move. On the road the limit point does indeed move.
This is actually very clever. I always wondered how people suddenly spot give way signs and zebra crossing at 40 mph. This must be somewhat what they are doing.
I've never heard of a limit point even though I'm a learner driver but it makes so much sense. I see people all the time speeding around corners not knowing what they may come across just easing off makes complete sense.
Great explanation of something I've been doing instinctively all this time and never knew the science.behind the subconscious! I also look at road conditions .. mud, gravel, water, debris etc to avoid slips/ skids. Probably thanks to riding a motorbike first. I also always scan for safe escape routes in case someone coming the other way isn't being as in control as you. I find TH-cam dashcam vids are great for learning things to anticipate but ones like this are great too for reminding and explaining the basics of safe driving.
A Nonymouse nice one. Keep safe, Ashley.
your technique is brilliant Ashley , the logic and command of the situation , fab
That's a big smile from me! Much appreciated :)
Thanks for your techniques Ashley, I don't have my own car, but often share the driving with a friend on long journeys, and these points are very beneficial to me... thanks again.
What a fantastic little lesson! And brilliant timing on your part
creating excellent drivers since creating a driving school. can't say this enough - what a fantastic driving instructor!
Easy to understand explanation to pass onto learners. Done instinctively by conscientious experienced drivers perhaps without realising how to best explain it to others. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Wow, this is by far the most useful thing I've learned, apart from driving on the left side of course😃
Lovely clear simple explanation. "Trust it and drive / squeeze the gas a little more.". Nice work by Kirsty.
Hi Ashley, thanks for this video. I've seen a few videos but you've explained it best.
Alot of us think we're good drivers.... I've been known to get fastest laps in go karting and years of driving experience, but still haven't been confident of knowing the speed of corners on unfamiliar country roads.
I am glad you stressed that it's about being able to safely stop for the distance we see is clear. It was the catching up the limit point (to be off the gas/brake) that was the final piece in the jigsaw for me.... other TH-camrs rightly mentioned if the limit point is moving away but illustrated it moving right or left which confused me.
What brings limit points into sharp relief for me is when I'm on the A4 travelling out of London of an afternoon. At the top of Earls Court there's a phenomenon whereby, for much of the journey the sun is shaded by buildings and advertising hoardings, but then you cross over the railway and it suddenly catches you. It's a 30 limit road, but still you need to slow down whilst your eyes adjust, and woe betide the tailgater, who can cause havoc.
It is complex - when you are driving and watching a number of things - signs, road conditions, other drivers and vehicles, mirrors etc. - to look at a limit point and figure out if it is moving towards you, staying the same, creeping or firing away - it is much simpler to thnk in terms of "Can I see what is coming around that bend and will I be able to react to it at my current speed?"
Although it means the same thing, it is more intuitive than to think consciously in terms of limit points. I find I get locked into the limit point and forget everything else around me when I do - especially when at speed. So I do not think of - is the limit point staying, coming at me or running away.
It's one reason why I hate strict speed limit rules... too many people are concentrating on their speed as what signs demand rather than reading the road, reading what other road users are doing. Limit points help you to look further than your car and bonnet. That's got to be a good thing.
Great video and explanations! I would like to see more of these - more situations, etc. Could you do? There are little videos on TH-cam that describe the concept so nicely up to the point.
Dont forget you can alter the limit point by road position, left bend be on the right of your lane, right bend be on the left of your lane. Once you understand and learn what is in Ashley's video you can exit corners faster without losing control as you will know where to progressively accelerate. The more of the road ahead you can see, the faster you can go.
Limit points need to be used in addition to the other clues on the road, such as slow signs on the road, warning of bend signs and chevrons on the bend. These signs were seen in the footage and should be included with limit point analysis.
Seriously - Learn to drive there’s much more than that to analyse on such roads. Limit point should be not used in addition to other clues but used as the primary source of information. You can be assessing limit points before you can even see “slow” written on the road surface. Thanks for watching and your input. You’ve also given me inspiration for a follow on video to this on the points you mention as well as others. Cheers. Ashley
It's not explicitly stated in the video (though it is very much in effect in practical terms) that the slower the limit point seems to be moving, the tighter the bend is.
When approaching a wide bend, the limit point moves away from you from some distance out and continues to move even if you are moving quite quickly. When approaching a tight bend, the limit point may barely move as you approach (you will be catching up to the limit point as Ashley puts it). So, along with other evidence that you gather from your observations, it's a reasonable indicator of how sharp an upcoming bend is.
Quite simply if the distance that you can see to your limit point is REDUCING then you should REDUCE your speed accordingly If the limit point is going away from you then your vision down the road is INCREASING then you can INCREASE your speed. Simplessssss. Not so please read on.
However on bends we may assume that our speed is right by the limit point but it may not be right for our emergency braking should we need to brake hard. Our training for safe stopping distance requires a few things and one that includes a straight line. So all the braking shown or referred to in road safety books is done in a straight line and our brakes can perform 100% of the time,whilst in a straight line.
However if we are taking a corner then other forces come in to play and if one needs to brake hard we might find that we lose our tyre grip with the roads surface and then we spin or slide or usually lock the brakes and skid and so we cannot then say that we have 100% of braking capacity. Depending on the severity of the bend and our relative speed around it we might consider ourselves to be ok with regards to the distance to the limit point but we might only have 70% or less of braking capacity whilst on any bend. Yes we can brake but we need to be quite gentle in the way we do it otherwise we overload the steering and or our tyre grip and we can lose control of our vehicle,
So understanding that we can no longer exercise 100% of our braking capacity on bends [ something we rarely if at all contemplate ] and we are required to brake in order to avoid hitting something on a bend then we must apply the brakes more gently. That will inevitably mean that we must travel a greater distance whilst braking. That in turn means that we can throw away the 2 second rule and the table of stopping distances in the H.C or advised by the DVSA as we will now, by having to brake on any bend will far exceed that safe stopping distance by having to brake more gently. All too often one slams the brakes on and a ,loss of control occurs and this is certainly more frequent on bends than on the straight and even more so on a wet road. We can all throw away the road safety books then as very few drivers will actually give twice the normal safe stopping distances when the roads are merely damp or wet.
Where and when it is safe to do so you can extend your limit points depending on where you position your vehicle by moving towards the centre line or kerb on corners. It does not make massive differences but does extend it.
Great explanation. Merci infiniment.
Many drivers are unaware, as are some instructors that that limit point is not only being as far as they can see up that road which is unobstructed and is a distance that they can stop in on their side of the road and in the event of an emergency. It also covers whatever car or other vehicle that is then presently in front to them. Its not only as far as the eye can see up the road as that may be some quarter of a mile and with no other traffic ahead. Then that driver can drive at a safe, possibly maximum speed towards it but if one has a vehicle in front of you then that will dramatically reduce that seeing distance to the car in front to perhaps Lets say only. 120 ft.
If that limit point is now being that vehicle and only some 120 ft ahead of us then if we are doing 60 mph on a 60 mph road we are in danger as we would need some 240 ft. to stop in. in an emergency. One cannot stop in 120ft at 60 mph. That's not possible so we must reduce our speed accordingly and the H.C would recommend at that distance if one should be 120 ft behind of being no more than 40 mph. .
So we should always drive to the limit point as its not always just how far we can see up the road to say a bend in the road but its limited to how far the vehicle in front is to us. . That's our new limit point and we should be able to stop, on our side of the road and in that distance seen to be clear ie the safe stopping distance, should that vehicle in front come to a sudden and unexpected halt as if its been involved in a collision or broken down.
Failure to stop in that moving limit point is actually tailgating which is not only dangerous but an offence in law.
Great video but a learner can't correlate limit points and use of speed it needs to be simpler what is speed limit on then road and what speed should I slow to before approaching bends?
The saying is 'You should always be able to stop in the distance that you see to be clear.... and on your own side of the road.' Limit points are the furthest that you can see clearly. It may be that there is now a car in front of you and that then is your new limit point, not what you had seen before so remember not to tailgate and to keep good safe distance behind it and that is the recommended stopping distances in either the Highways Code or the DVSA Handbook [ both are different ?] but never ever drive too close like the Thinking Distance only. If that car were to become involved in a collision or emergency and come to an immediate and sudden stop you need all the Safe Stopping distance to be able to stop and avoid colliding with it. Don't get too close and rely on that car or indeed the driver of that car braking, that is not and never was the safe stopping distances at all.
Safer Driving All The Way.
As HGV driver we alwasy work with limit points, mostly required as the Gen public with their unlimited german engines and limited own understanding of limits of physics limit our movement and get us both very close very fast.
I wish, UK public would get some mandatory motorway and hazardous weather driving training 😅
When approaching a bend with the thought l, can I stop on my own side of the road within the distance I can see to be clear? presupposes another question first, which is: Why might I need to stop? This is where taking in information is important and then making safe decisions rather that getting hung up on two parts of the road converging. Road signs, markings, road surface in general, hedges, footpaths or lack of, the list goes on, all these will help when making a decision about the speed which you think is safe to enter and drive through a bend. There are those bends, however, where the view is open, and the curve gradual, you can chase the limit point at the max speed limit safely in these situations. It’s fun 🤩
the moving apex , its so useful , do one on that please :-)
Road geometry is what that is called. Follow the straights with speed and slow down for bends and hazards
Its called limit points as stated in road craft
10/10 brilliant 👍👍
Been driving for 20 years, I would call this “reading the road ahead”. Limit points seems good tho.
As per just about everything with driving / riding your eyes are your very best friends. Without observation nothing else is of much use. It's also crucial not to fixate as well. Many drivers will assess and consider a limit point in the way a racing driver will assess and consider the apex of a bend on a track. In the case of a track situation the apex does not move. On the road the limit point does indeed move.
Just like ACDA: “Assured Clear Distance Ahead”
Driving too fast is like driving blind!
This is actually very clever. I always wondered how people suddenly spot give way signs and zebra crossing at 40 mph. This must be somewhat what they are doing.
You mean people paying attention to the road.