NOTE: The Rigol DS1054Z does have the ability to do vernier control. It uses the same HAD1511 ADC as the Siglent, and that ADC has two methods of vernier control. One is the digital gain after the ADC (available because the ADC is actually up to 13 bits internally). And second, the ADC reference voltage has an internal DAC that can be changed. So either or both of those techniques can be used, technically no need for a Variable Gain Amplifier on the front end.
Thanks for making a short, clear and concise video about a genuinely interesting topic. I myself haven't touched the vernier on digital scopes due to having the line of thought, "Well, it probably only does that in software, so likely not of help..."
So 1054z has 8-bits for data, leaving 5-bits for vernier? 32 steps seems a bit coarse *vs* 128 on the 1104x-e using a VGA. Also, Rigol changing the ADC ref. is an untested assumption right? So which entry-level scope wins? At 5-years on the market, the 1054z looks like an EOL product and the Siglent competitor has twice the 'hacked' bandwidth in its front-end (AFAIK), but it seems crippled by buggy software and lack of company firmware expertise/finesse. Which scope at this point, gets your Kudos on 'bang for the buck' ??
I tried this with my DS1054z: - Applied 8.27V DC to the input. - Set the channel to DC, BWLimit 20MHz, 5V/div - Enabled Vmax measurement - it shows me 8.20V - Enabled Vernier and lowered the Volts/div indent by indent This is what it displays: 4.95V/div -> 8.12V 4.90V/div -> 8.23V 4.85V/div -> 8.34V 4.80V/div -> 8.26V 4.75V/div -> 8.36V 4.70V/div -> 8.27V 4.65V/div -> 8.18V ... I checked with a R&S HMC8012 DMM in parallel. The voltage stayed all the time on 8.27V. So the DS1054z doesn't benefit from vernier mode obviously. The measured value jumps around all over the place.
These videos are where you really shine, Dave. This was an immensely informative video and you really were able to bring some pretty complicated stuff down to ground level to make it easier to understand. This was really great. Two thumbs up!! :-)
Big two thumbs up, both to Dave for clearly explaining and showing the VGA vernier, and to Siglent for implementing it on their entry-level scope. I'm continually impressed by the 1104X-E, it makes for a great present to young players (and old).
I got an 2352X-E last year. It replaced my old LeCroy Waveace (which to my knowledge also was an rebranded Siglent) .. and those 10 years did wonders. Even if I loved the WaveAce back in 2009 when I got it and it was actually really decent back then .. in comparision to the 2352X-E it's just utter crap. Can't say it in another way. It was one of those digital scopes where having an additional analog scope was a really good idea.
You could have just put a small DC voltage like 50mV on the input and put a DMM probe somewhere, anywhere, downstream of the amplifier, then watched the DMM voltage as you adjust the vernier...
Pretty easy to convince yourself without a teardown. Use coarse scale to get signal to small size on screen. Hit run/stop. Then turn 'gain' up with variable mode. You will see pure s/w expansion of the stored signal. If it did this during the 'run' only in s/w, you'd see the same thing. But instead, you see the signal without the telltale jaggies. With all that said - love that you did the full analysis here!
Great approach to forcing software gain. I'm a fan of non-invasive approaches, because the invasive approach relies on proper interpretation of your findings, whereas the empirical (black-box) approach just looks at the final result.
I know a guy who has a Porche 911 and uses it as just a daily driver. So someone having an expensive optioned up oscilloscope and only using basic functions does not impress me much. Maybe it is just a personal preference.
I have this Siglent. Knowing that Vernier work that good for nearly every step is very rewarding. And thanks for this hugely informative video. Really appreciate that. It's like a present for Siglent owners like me. Thank you thank you thank you.
Loved the teardown and reverse engineering, always fun to watch that stuff :) And I noticed that "2016 special edition" EEVBLogo on the Keysight MSO. Niiiiiice!
Oh yeah baby. I bought the 1104x-e after seeing the teardown video and I'm glad to see it does shit right. I have been trying to figure this exact vernier thing out on my own and Dave just walked in and did a professional analysis of the exact mechanism I was curious about.
A very interesting analysis, showing the signals going to the VGA chip. You could probably also do it by tapping the input signal both before and after the amplifier and use the other scope to see the change in gain. The advantage is that that technique would work with any scope (even an old analog one), but the disadvantage is that it wouldn't reveal much about the rest of the scope's design.
Found it. Terrorform was the episode name when Kryten says "001100111011000111100" which translates to: "Don''t stand around jabbering when in mortal danger!". Phew, it was starting to annoy me. Now im done. Great video as always Dave! Love and seen all episodes probably more than once! Suppose you could rig a small unit bridging off the vertical gain amp like a small mod (like in the vid) as a permanent mod? It is useful in some applications so would be beneficial right?
Possible, but not as dramatic an effect as seeing the bits change in the VGA. And in this case not all the vernier is happening in the front end, some is internal to the ADC.
It should be possible for a fully automated calibration routine using known reference inputs to run through the 256 gain settings, measure the deviations and nonlinearities of each and store correction values in the firmware. Then the digital output and math functions can get closer to accurate values for the same hardware quality, and the mapping from vernier settings to hardware steps can occur according to the characterized chip and transistor inaccuracies. Doing the same for thermal drift is more difficult as it needs data for the thermal dynamics of the physical layout and cabinet to know the per component temperatures and some clever thermal cycling to characterize components at various die temperatures. But it may be possible to achieve this by messing with CPU load and fan speed during the calibration run.
Well that seals the deal. I was considering the 1054z but Siggy's 1104x-e has yet another plus mark. Now if only they could show some real skill in ironing-out the firmware.. Yo Low what I mean?
It's not a bad scope if ou can get past Siglent's quirky operation (I find the cursors really weird and quirky to operate verses a more straight forward Tek scope) and its lack of measurement controls, or should I say its lack of configuration of the available measurements? I purchased one and paid to have it ISO17025 certified, but have shelved it and bought another Tektronix. Its lacks that measurement configuration capabilty and is quirky. It's USB interface is un-useable for the most part. It does interface via network connection pretty well, but then software written around last year's firmware quits working with the newly released firmware even though none of the features used by said software should have been effected by the update (according the the changes doucment issued by Siglent). I think the timing of some of the commands changed or caused some timing quirk. I was really excited for this scope. It is inexpensive and had a brillient display. It's just not ready for prime-time is a real bussiness environment where you must reply on your equipment. I would call it a fantastic hobby scope. As a hobbiest, I would take this in a heart beat compared to an beautiful old analog Tek scope. It is light as a feather, compact and, again, has a beutiful display. It is very accurate in its measurement capabilities. It is just too quirky and un-configurable for a more professional enviroment. If they would have fixed a few things I asked them to last summer with this last May's software update, I could have sold 6-12 of these scopes for them with some software utilites I write for the industry I am in. I realize 6-12 is nothing, but still, the techs I work with usually can't spend much money (even though they make a lot with their equipment). I was "that close" to recomending this scope to a few of my collegues, but at this time, can not.
Honestly, calibrating all those steps individually wouldn't take all that much time. There is 128 of them. (The selectable preamp is after all another amplifier as far as I have understood.) So if we set the rest of our front end amps to keep a sinewave of known amplitude within the full vernier range, then we can simply step through and measure each step. Probably do a few hundred averages for each step, but that shouldn't take long, especially with modern scopes doing thousands of waveform captures per second. Simply have it as part of the factory calibration routine, would likely not take more then 1-2 seconds at most, even on a slow scope.
@@EEVblog Hope you and your family enjoyed it. My first IMAX movie was "Fires of Kuwait" circa 1996, visually stunning, scared the crap out of me with the surround sound, guessing it was 5.1.
well, no, the datasheet doesn't. It contains one graph of gain versus frequency which shows performance down to 10 Hz, but not lower. However, I would assume that also the oscilloscope specs only start from a certain low frequency and not at DC. This said, Analog Devices only specifies the accuracy of the gain down to 10 Hz, this does not mean that the chip stops working, just that they do not make claims about accuracy at lower frequencies where you will encounter all different types of problems like long-term drift, 1/f noise etc.
So, I'm currently still in highschool, but I'm going to study electrical engineering. I just wanted to say your videos help me a lot to understand how certain electronics work. Currently I'm working on my first project with electronics, I'm going to study some old digital alarmclocks, reverse engineer them and build my own. Is there any things I specifically need, and things to keep in mind? You're a great inspiration to me, keep doing what you're doing, especially in the dumpsters.
Justin .... Well, nice to see someone is having interest with electronics but may I advice you for free ?... If you like to work in Analog electronics then think of Analog Electronics and if you like to work with Digital Electronics then think of Analog Electronics again !.... final conclusion , all Digital and software based systems are worthless to be talented by , only Analog systems and that is the TRUE skill of Electronics Engineering guy !.
@@ahmedalshalchi That's what I'm going for, yeah, but I can't ignore chips ofcourse. They will be used somewhere in most projects. As for what I meant with a digital alarm clock I meant a seven segment display, and I don't want to use something like an arduino. I was thinking of getting a system set up that detects when minutes get to 60 and then adds an hour, same for second. I was thinking of using a crystal oscillator for that, and getting it to update every second exactly. Then I would have to set a system in place that with the press of a button can add a second to the time, which I'd assume I could do by mimicking an input from the timer circuit. I have no idea how I'd do that though.
They should put out a combination of what was the best with the analogue scopes and what's best with the digital scopes and set a price accordingly (a small house equivalent price would be fine). I hate when digital word is using software for every crap because is some conditions they may have errors. Huge errors. A combination between those two worlds would be perfect.
Just because the input amplifier gain is changing when you adjust the vertical control, doesn't necessarily mean the automated measurements are affected by that amplifier gain change. Typically, the measuring done by the scope is an interpretation of what's being displayed to the screen, not a direct interpretation of the actual ADC conversions. If you do a single sweep of a signal, and then change the vertical control to fine and reduce the apparent amplitude slightly and the built-in measuring system begins to give you a measurement where it wasn't before, or a more accurate measurement than it was before, then that measurement is a better interpretation of what's being displayed on the screen, not of what's being sampled by the ADC through the input amplifier.
Seems like a design flaw - that the "gain" (i.e. arbitrary vertical magnification to make wave form visually pleasing) should affect the precision of the measurements. The designers were lazy. Wouldn't it make more sense that automatic internal gain adjustments would ensure that the A/Ds and whatever would yield the best precision possible, to obtain accurate measurements, independent of screen's representation.
So does some manufacturer still make that blue wire-wrap wire so we can use short lengths of it to solder to SSOP chips like that, or are these little blue wires left over from so many decades ago when wire-wrap was The Common Method of Prototyping? TLDR How old are those little blue wires?
Stupid question here, probably completely wrong... Isn't 1db steps too coarse to be a Vernier? The resolution per the data sheet was 1db, so just three clicks on the Vernier would be 3db, and that's double the signal, right? Or I'm completely wrong...
My biggest problem with digital verniers controls was always the same with digital volume controls?... It always lacked precision period?... You could only adjust it slightly too loud, or not loud enough?...
Greetings: At the start you mentioned that some measurement might not work unless you ensured that the waveform was fully visible on-screen. It would be interesting if you were able to show that the measurement data would vary depending on the displayed waveform. TYIA
I wish I had your knowledge. I have an old Goldstar OS-7040A oscilloscope that I always liked, and it quit working. I pulled it out of its box after sitting for a number of years, and powered it up, and got a trace for a minute, and then it went dark. No magic smoke, but just no trace. I have no idea how to even troubleshoot it. I'm thinking of getting a new 'scope, but I use one very infrequently, and only to check digital outputs on hobbyist microcontroller projects. I have a Techtronics 2235, but I don't like it as much. Do you think it's worth getting fixed, or cheaper to just buy a new one?
Both the Goldstar and Tek 2235 are pretty old. Put money into either and something else like an old tantalum cap can crap out a bit later. I would buy new. The 2235 though is a well built 100 Mhz analog scope so maybe keep it around as a spare.
Hi Dave. I'm in Sydney for 2 days can you suggest where can I find cheap electronics.. also would be wiling to search one of those treasure dumpster. 😁
Would be a useful mod for these scopes if they function the same as this particular scope. Tap off the VGA and tweak/sniff the signal and add/change the signal to mod. If only they used Varible Resistors and not encoders for panel controls, this would give more room for possibilities of tweaking adjustments by changing resistances instead of resorting to a long complicated software hack. Ah the old days eh? Like increasing the volume on your old radio by changing the VR POT resistance or adding resistors to it see what effect it had! Or just blowing your amplifier. Such fun!
Whole range of specialist test clips available, of varying quality (and price) if you’re going to be doing this regularly. sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison#E-Z-Hook_X2015
Well, no. "Real" vernier scales have two adjacent scales with slightly different spacing. A reading is taken by noting the gross adjustment and then noting where the two scales come into sync. See th-cam.com/video/5lLf8fWPXk4/w-d-xo.html for an example.
NOTE: The Rigol DS1054Z does have the ability to do vernier control. It uses the same HAD1511 ADC as the Siglent, and that ADC has two methods of vernier control. One is the digital gain after the ADC (available because the ADC is actually up to 13 bits internally). And second, the ADC reference voltage has an internal DAC that can be changed.
So either or both of those techniques can be used, technically no need for a Variable Gain Amplifier on the front end.
Thanks for making a short, clear and concise video about a genuinely interesting topic.
I myself haven't touched the vernier on digital scopes due to having the line of thought, "Well, it probably only does that in software, so likely not of help..."
So 1054z has 8-bits for data, leaving 5-bits for vernier? 32 steps seems a bit coarse *vs* 128 on the 1104x-e using a VGA. Also, Rigol changing the ADC ref. is an untested assumption right? So which entry-level scope wins?
At 5-years on the market, the 1054z looks like an EOL product and the Siglent competitor has twice the 'hacked' bandwidth in its front-end (AFAIK), but it seems crippled by buggy software and lack of company firmware expertise/finesse. Which scope at this point, gets your Kudos on 'bang for the buck' ??
I tried this with my DS1054z:
- Applied 8.27V DC to the input.
- Set the channel to DC, BWLimit 20MHz, 5V/div
- Enabled Vmax measurement - it shows me 8.20V
- Enabled Vernier and lowered the Volts/div indent by indent
This is what it displays:
4.95V/div -> 8.12V
4.90V/div -> 8.23V
4.85V/div -> 8.34V
4.80V/div -> 8.26V
4.75V/div -> 8.36V
4.70V/div -> 8.27V
4.65V/div -> 8.18V
...
I checked with a R&S HMC8012 DMM in parallel. The voltage stayed all the time on 8.27V.
So the DS1054z doesn't benefit from vernier mode obviously. The measured value jumps around all over the place.
@@BerndStrobel Well, I'll guess I need to do this test as well. Since yes, that there seems to be all over the place....
@@CliveChamberlain946 i second this, but more in the form of "whats the "best" (read: cheap bang for the buck) entry level scope?"
These videos are where you really shine, Dave. This was an immensely informative video and you really were able to bring some pretty complicated stuff down to ground level to make it easier to understand. This was really great. Two thumbs up!! :-)
Big two thumbs up, both to Dave for clearly explaining and showing the VGA vernier, and to Siglent for implementing it on their entry-level scope. I'm continually impressed by the 1104X-E, it makes for a great present to young players (and old).
I'm starting to think about it as my first real scope.
I got an 2352X-E last year. It replaced my old LeCroy Waveace (which to my knowledge also was an rebranded Siglent) .. and those 10 years did wonders. Even if I loved the WaveAce back in 2009 when I got it and it was actually really decent back then .. in comparision to the 2352X-E it's just utter crap. Can't say it in another way.
It was one of those digital scopes where having an additional analog scope was a really good idea.
'probe it right up the clacker' I do so enjoy learning new technical terms
Love these Aussie terms, I’ve adopted many of them into my vocabulary, acquiring myself a few odd looks from my friends
We've got a few good ones here in Blighty, my personal favourite is 'phkt'
Isn't that 8-bit protocol standard SPI, which your second scope can probably decode directly?
No fun in that
You could have just put a small DC voltage like 50mV on the input and put a DMM probe somewhere, anywhere, downstream of the amplifier, then watched the DMM voltage as you adjust the vernier...
Great content. I was waiting in the channel for a bit more analysis of circuits and electronics and you got it right.
Pretty easy to convince yourself without a teardown. Use coarse scale to get signal to small size on screen. Hit run/stop. Then turn 'gain' up with variable mode. You will see pure s/w expansion of the stored signal. If it did this during the 'run' only in s/w, you'd see the same thing. But instead, you see the signal without the telltale jaggies.
With all that said - love that you did the full analysis here!
Great approach to forcing software gain. I'm a fan of non-invasive approaches, because the invasive approach relies on proper interpretation of your findings, whereas the empirical (black-box) approach just looks at the final result.
You could use the serial decoder on the scope on spi bus mode and see the hex value
I know a guy who has a Porche 911 and uses it as just a daily driver. So someone having an expensive optioned up oscilloscope and only using basic functions does not impress me much. Maybe it is just a personal preference.
I have this Siglent. Knowing that Vernier work that good for nearly every step is very rewarding. And thanks for this hugely informative video. Really appreciate that. It's like a present for Siglent owners like me. Thank you thank you thank you.
YAY! More Siglent scope teardowns! I've got a SDS1204-E as my daily driver as well so this is great to hear! Thanks EEVblog!
Loved the teardown and reverse engineering, always fun to watch that stuff :)
And I noticed that "2016 special edition" EEVBLogo on the Keysight MSO. Niiiiiice!
Super 👍
I'm glad this was your lab rat for testing. I've got a Siglent 1104X-E. My first scope and I love it.
Me too 😊
@@christopheacquier2585 me three
Oh yeah baby. I bought the 1104x-e after seeing the teardown video and I'm glad to see it does shit right. I have been trying to figure this exact vernier thing out on my own and Dave just walked in and did a professional analysis of the exact mechanism I was curious about.
That was well done and quite educational.
Super awesome video. I always wanted to see that 8bit clock based data transfer. Thanks for the teardown.
The Philips analog scope I used for years at work had a nice multi-turn vernier knob, it was for the delay sweep function
A very interesting analysis, showing the signals going to the VGA chip.
You could probably also do it by tapping the input signal both before and after the amplifier and use the other scope to see the change in gain. The advantage is that that technique would work with any scope (even an old analog one), but the disadvantage is that it wouldn't reveal much about the rest of the scope's design.
Thanks DJ!
This is the type of video I subscribed to this channel for.
(12:45) "It's definitely doing _something_ ..."
- EEVblog, 2019
All in good fun! ;) Love your work, sir! Take care! :)
I had Kryten from Red Dwarf counting 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 in my head @14:51
Found it. Terrorform was the episode name when Kryten says "001100111011000111100" which translates to: "Don''t stand around jabbering when in mortal danger!". Phew, it was starting to annoy me. Now im done. Great video as always Dave! Love and seen all episodes probably more than once!
Suppose you could rig a small unit bridging off the vertical gain amp like a small mod (like in the vid) as a permanent mod? It is useful in some applications so would be beneficial right?
nice work Dave
Very interesting, thanks Dave.
Or you could have just probed the diff pair going in to the ADC to see what the front end was doing with the signal.
Possible, but not as dramatic an effect as seeing the bits change in the VGA. And in this case not all the vernier is happening in the front end, some is internal to the ADC.
So, decap or bust.
It should be possible for a fully automated calibration routine using known reference inputs to run through the 256 gain settings, measure the deviations and nonlinearities of each and store correction values in the firmware. Then the digital output and math functions can get closer to accurate values for the same hardware quality, and the mapping from vernier settings to hardware steps can occur according to the characterized chip and transistor inaccuracies. Doing the same for thermal drift is more difficult as it needs data for the thermal dynamics of the physical layout and cabinet to know the per component temperatures and some clever thermal cycling to characterize components at various die temperatures. But it may be possible to achieve this by messing with CPU load and fan speed during the calibration run.
Well that seals the deal. I was considering the 1054z but Siggy's 1104x-e has yet another plus mark. Now if only they could show some real skill in ironing-out the firmware.. Yo Low what I mean?
It's not a bad scope if ou can get past Siglent's quirky operation (I find the cursors really weird and quirky to operate verses a more straight forward Tek scope) and its lack of measurement controls, or should I say its lack of configuration of the available measurements? I purchased one and paid to have it ISO17025 certified, but have shelved it and bought another Tektronix. Its lacks that measurement configuration capabilty and is quirky. It's USB interface is un-useable for the most part. It does interface via network connection pretty well, but then software written around last year's firmware quits working with the newly released firmware even though none of the features used by said software should have been effected by the update (according the the changes doucment issued by Siglent). I think the timing of some of the commands changed or caused some timing quirk. I was really excited for this scope. It is inexpensive and had a brillient display. It's just not ready for prime-time is a real bussiness environment where you must reply on your equipment. I would call it a fantastic hobby scope. As a hobbiest, I would take this in a heart beat compared to an beautiful old analog Tek scope. It is light as a feather, compact and, again, has a beutiful display. It is very accurate in its measurement capabilities. It is just too quirky and un-configurable for a more professional enviroment. If they would have fixed a few things I asked them to last summer with this last May's software update, I could have sold 6-12 of these scopes for them with some software utilites I write for the industry I am in. I realize 6-12 is nothing, but still, the techs I work with usually can't spend much money (even though they make a lot with their equipment). I was "that close" to recomending this scope to a few of my collegues, but at this time, can not.
Honestly, calibrating all those steps individually wouldn't take all that much time.
There is 128 of them. (The selectable preamp is after all another amplifier as far as I have understood.)
So if we set the rest of our front end amps to keep a sinewave of known amplitude within the full vernier range, then we can simply step through and measure each step.
Probably do a few hundred averages for each step, but that shouldn't take long, especially with modern scopes doing thousands of waveform captures per second. Simply have it as part of the factory calibration routine, would likely not take more then 1-2 seconds at most, even on a slow scope.
Dave Jones at your IMAX screen Soon!!!!. Pretty good test for a technical TH-camrs.
Enjoying this Oscilloscope direction. Thanks for sharing.
Funny you mention that. I'm going to see Apollo 11 at the imax tonight!
@@EEVblog Hope you and your family enjoyed it. My first IMAX movie was "Fires of Kuwait" circa 1996, visually stunning, scared the crap out of me with the surround sound, guessing it was 5.1.
I've always thought that was a software thing!
Why does the Ad8370 datasheet say LF to 750 MHz?
I couldn’t find anything that said it did to did not go to down to DC.
well, no, the datasheet doesn't. It contains one graph of gain versus frequency which shows performance down to 10 Hz, but not lower. However, I would assume that also the oscilloscope specs only start from a certain low frequency and not at DC. This said, Analog Devices only specifies the accuracy of the gain down to 10 Hz, this does not mean that the chip stops working, just that they do not make claims about accuracy at lower frequencies where you will encounter all different types of problems like long-term drift, 1/f noise etc.
Terrific video again Dave! I
Thank you!
So, I'm currently still in highschool, but I'm going to study electrical engineering. I just wanted to say your videos help me a lot to understand how certain electronics work. Currently I'm working on my first project with electronics, I'm going to study some old digital alarmclocks, reverse engineer them and build my own. Is there any things I specifically need, and things to keep in mind?
You're a great inspiration to me, keep doing what you're doing, especially in the dumpsters.
Great to hear. Just work on projects that interest you.
Justin .... Well, nice to see someone is having interest with electronics but may I advice you for free ?... If you like to work in Analog electronics then think of Analog Electronics and if you like to work with Digital Electronics then think of Analog Electronics again !.... final conclusion , all Digital and software based systems are worthless to be talented by , only Analog systems and that is the TRUE skill of Electronics Engineering guy !.
@@ahmedalshalchi That's what I'm going for, yeah, but I can't ignore chips ofcourse. They will be used somewhere in most projects. As for what I meant with a digital alarm clock I meant a seven segment display, and I don't want to use something like an arduino. I was thinking of getting a system set up that detects when minutes get to 60 and then adds an hour, same for second. I was thinking of using a crystal oscillator for that, and getting it to update every second exactly. Then I would have to set a system in place that with the press of a button can add a second to the time, which I'd assume I could do by mimicking an input from the timer circuit. I have no idea how I'd do that though.
Wouldn't it be easier to see if the amplifier's gain changes during adjustment?
Now test your Keysight using Siglent
thank you for another ripper video dave. i do hope one of these days you'll explain which angle is the correct angle for the tongue.
They should put out a combination of what was the best with the analogue scopes and what's best with the digital scopes and set a price accordingly (a small house equivalent price would be fine). I hate when digital word is using software for every crap because is some conditions they may have errors. Huge errors. A combination between those two worlds would be perfect.
Just because the input amplifier gain is changing when you adjust the vertical control, doesn't necessarily mean the automated measurements are affected by that amplifier gain change.
Typically, the measuring done by the scope is an interpretation of what's being displayed to the screen, not a direct interpretation of the actual ADC conversions.
If you do a single sweep of a signal, and then change the vertical control to fine and reduce the apparent amplitude slightly and the built-in measuring system begins to give you a measurement where it wasn't before, or a more accurate measurement than it was before, then that measurement is a better interpretation of what's being displayed on the screen, not of what's being sampled by the ADC through the input amplifier.
Seems like a design flaw - that the "gain" (i.e. arbitrary vertical magnification to make wave form visually pleasing) should affect the precision of the measurements. The designers were lazy.
Wouldn't it make more sense that automatic internal gain adjustments would ensure that the A/Ds and whatever would yield the best precision possible, to obtain accurate measurements, independent of screen's representation.
So does some manufacturer still make that blue wire-wrap wire so we can use short lengths of it to solder to SSOP chips like that, or are these little blue wires left over from so many decades ago when wire-wrap was The Common Method of Prototyping?
TLDR How old are those little blue wires?
I remember once reading a quote in EA, "you need a scope to fix a scope".
Stupid question here, probably completely wrong... Isn't 1db steps too coarse to be a Vernier? The resolution per the data sheet was 1db, so just three clicks on the Vernier would be 3db, and that's double the signal, right?
Or I'm completely wrong...
negative to show said clock pulses? Isn't the clock always running? Am I missing something here? (Presumably the later)
My biggest problem with digital verniers controls was always the same with digital volume controls?... It always lacked precision period?... You could only adjust it slightly too loud, or not loud enough?...
The man who scopes his scopes
Very nice!!
Greetings: At the start you mentioned that some measurement might not work unless you ensured that the waveform was fully visible on-screen. It would be interesting if you were able to show that the measurement data would vary depending on the displayed waveform. TYIA
very interesting thank you
I wish I had your knowledge. I have an old Goldstar OS-7040A oscilloscope that I always liked, and it quit working. I pulled it out of its box after sitting for a number of years, and powered it up, and got a trace for a minute, and then it went dark. No magic smoke, but just no trace. I have no idea how to even troubleshoot it. I'm thinking of getting a new 'scope, but I use one very infrequently, and only to check digital outputs on hobbyist microcontroller projects. I have a Techtronics 2235, but I don't like it as much. Do you think it's worth getting fixed, or cheaper to just buy a new one?
Both the Goldstar and Tek 2235 are pretty old. Put money into either and something else like an old tantalum cap can crap out a bit later. I would buy new. The 2235 though is a well built 100 Mhz analog scope so maybe keep it around as a spare.
Scopin' a scope!
Hi Dave. I'm in Sydney for 2 days can you suggest where can I find cheap electronics.. also would be wiling to search one of those treasure dumpster. 😁
Anyone knows how to display the scale numbering on the Keysight?
Requires an update maybe?
Thanks!
Update the firmware.
I wanted to see a scope used to probe itself!
This video is da bomb Dave
Scopeception.
Would be a useful mod for these scopes if they function the same as this particular scope. Tap off the VGA and tweak/sniff the signal and add/change the signal to mod. If only they used Varible Resistors and not encoders for panel controls, this would give more room for possibilities of tweaking adjustments by changing resistances instead of resorting to a long complicated software hack. Ah the old days eh? Like increasing the volume on your old radio by changing the VR POT resistance or adding resistors to it see what effect it had! Or just blowing your amplifier. Such fun!
migo manda um deste para mim aqui no brasil,valeu?
Who else would did the same sophisticated, detailed analysis? Only Dave!
Whole range of specialist test clips available, of varying quality (and price) if you’re going to be doing this regularly.
sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison#E-Z-Hook_X2015
Well, no.
"Real" vernier scales have two adjacent scales with slightly different spacing. A reading is taken by noting the gross adjustment and then noting where the two scales come into sync.
See th-cam.com/video/5lLf8fWPXk4/w-d-xo.html for an example.
i'll take your sacrificed scope.
Edit: you said trannys lol. demonetized.
#clacker
@@StreuB1 what does that mean
I think 'clacker' should be 'cloaca'.
Where are the kids? The succulent kids...
That's why he rents a lab outside of the house!
I heard you like scopes so I put a scope in your scope so you can scope while you scope.
the thumbnail has nothing to do with anything
Summary for tl;dw?
Summary is "yes"!
Just go watch it :P
Scopes have real verniers
'virtual' Verniers ;)
Of course it has a real vernier. Is a chinese product not an american junk.