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The latch crossbow seems like the same idea as a modern, low powered, concealed carry handgun. People always argue over stopping power and ballistics but sometimes you just want something that's convenient to use while being just inconvenient enough to get shot by.
The other thing to consider is the border reivers were mainly raiding on either side side of the Scottish border regularly so a bow like this would be useful since you could load or fire it while mounted on handed and as raiders you generally don't run into guys decked out to fight if you can help it. So the lower power wouldn't be to much a problem in that context.
There’s a joke response to people who say .22 is too small of a caliber, “point to the place on your body you wouldn’t mind getting shot by a .22”. It’s the same with this crossbow.
The better analogy might be a carbine IMO. Reevers were not exactly civilian, more like state sponsored banditry, so I doubt concealing was the main use. Rather ease of use, tactical flexibility, and general lightness.
Tod was just innocently sitting there, contemplating his collection of medieval crossbows, as he does. But then the Adder bow began to whisper to him, calling in the back of his mind... _"You should show someone their features."_
Honestly, for a civil usage, the latchet crossbow sounds just about perfect. What i'm thinking of is for example home defence, where you dont expect a heavily armoured knight to attack you, but rather a few outlaws or whatever. And there, it would definitely be beneficial to be able to shoot quicker, even if it comes at a cost to deadliness. It doesnt really matter if you kill with every single shot, as long as you can either get a few warning shots or a nasty wound, that should be enough to make the attackers change their mind. Plus, it is easy to use, pretty portable, probably quite simple to maintain/store, and you dont have any detachable parts to bother you in one way or the other.
Plus, if a few villagers gather together at the town gates, that flurry of bolts, no matter how small or short ranged, would make it a pretty daunting task to close to melee. Half a dozen bolts every 2-3 seconds, no raider is moving up that quickly from the outbuildings to the town gate.
The 400-year-old design is such a lovely example of engineering (and Tod's craft). "Fun, war, civil defence?" That sounds like a great description of this channel.
If Jorge Sprave had been born in the middle ages I expect he would have invented plywood *and* weaponized it. He's a mad genius. I really love your craftsmanship Todd. Just beautiful work.
The deal with the modern bow (Jörg's design) is the magazine. That kind of changes everything about the concept, don't you think? If you're in a standing defence system you could make that a 90 arrow magasine which means constant fire, you could make it big to just push down on a wall which means power could be really great, you could make it a longer draw meaning distance shots... If you have a defence position and a crossbow with a magazine for the arrows and a court full of longbows you could take out basically anything along with the other traditional means. Anyway, my point is that reloading in combat is a mindfuck that takes ages longer than what you ever have and I should know.
Can you imagine an army on one side with those bows vs muskets. As they lift their muskets to aim, you hear the sound of a hundred bows clacking as one and a continuous hail of arrows are stabbing into your army. Then the rebels with rifles shooting from the trees.
I was told the the Border Reivers (not Reavers!) Used to refer to the bow as 'The Latch'. And yes, mine is a Border Reiver clan name. I have one of Tod's excellent Dudgeon daggers. Might have to save for a latchet bow now 😊
the way you say Landsknecht has forever been hilarious: you're basically saying "land's snail/national snail". Anyway, I love the dagger and am considering getting another :D
One should also not underestimate the importance of beauty: If you are walking around with the latchet bow every day as a longer range self defence weapon, then you want something that also puts a smile on your face every time you look at it. And the sheer elegance of this nifty little design absolutely does that.
I bet there'd be a huge market for a Todd Cutler latchet bow with s "medieval style" magazine. No modern materials - a bow which could well have been built back in the medieval period, but unaccountably wasn't.
Indeed. Though for all we know it may have existed and just not survived or been noticed in the archaeology or records yet. Though I think ultimately it probably didn't - if you really want a magazine fed system it is going to be put on the slightly larger crossbow IMO - the added bulk for the magazine makes that smaller easier to carry crossbow suddenly just as awkward to transport and carry as the bigger one anyway, so you might as well have the more effective weapon and just build in the goats foot. Though I expect I'd absolutely enjoy such a pretty little latchet bow with magazine and so might somebody wealthy enough to have it made even though its not that practical.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 I think all your reasoning makes sense, and I agree that you've probably put your finger on the answer to the question of why we don't find these things depicted in art or in the archeological record.
I believe that there was a sort of primitive, magazine fed ballista built by Archimedes. Not really a crossbow because it's torsion powered rather than tension, but not a million miles away. Didn't see much use though, the extra complexity in the device, the reduced power, and the increased loading time were too big draw backs for the increase in shooting rate. I believe the same was true for the Chinese repeating bows, which were more court weapons than battlefield ones.
@@QuantumHistorian Yes - earlier in this thread I said that the fact that magazines weren't widely enough used to have left any trace was "unaccountable". But now I realise that there were good, sound reasons for the people of that period to leave them well alone. Bulk, complexity and the fact that magazines didn't let you shoot more bolts per hour, but simply let you deliver them in a succession of quick bursts, would top my new-found list of those reasons.
As a descendant of those Border Reivers, I am sure that my ancestors would have used the Adder, had it been available to them. They were a practical people if nothing else.
Seems like bows went through a similar evolution to firearms. Obviously over a longer period. But today we use small, fast bullets because even though they may not remove massive chunks like say a musket would, it’s fast, accurate and will still more than do the job.
In the correctional facility I used to work in, we used pepperball guns (think paintball guns loaded with pepper powder) to break up fights. We had harder hitting less-lethal shotguns and 40mm launchers, but the sting of a pepperball was enough to gain compliance in most situations. Even if the majority of injuries caused by this crossbow weren't lethal, the pain of being shot would be enough to deter further hostile action in most situations.
@@styxspeedrun It's still a question, though, how much of the technique might be rendered unnecessary by someone as wildly outside the normal strength of a period crossbowman as Eddie Hall. And then, if he can learn the technique reasonably well how much might the system's potential be amplified by his greater strength.
No reason to go all the way with Eddie Hall, I wonder just how heavy a crossbow could Joe Gibbs draw, with his strenght and considerable prowess in drawing "classic" bows. I imagine he could try to tackle the 600 pound area with some practice and good belt. Andreas Bichler draws 440 with a doubler belt, and he's bit older gentleman and as far as I am aware not able to draw 190 pound monster bows at all.
I love these videos. I wish you were teaching at uni. One of our lecturers got us to do design and build mini projects on some mediaeval seige engines. But your specific knowledge and passion is unparalleled. Thanks Todd. These videos help keep my engineering brain alive.
Adder on paper looks like fantastic example of LTL weapon. It prolly wont kill unless you hit in the neck, or face. But on the other hand it goes pretty fast and will hurt even when hit just in extremities. As such I think it also deserves this "rethink one's options" kind of thingie. Also that footage of Joe with several other shots of himself in same screen... Sounds almost like a damn M60 over here.😆👍
One of the funniest things I ever saw was in the Chinese movie Red Cliff - they had these repeating crossbows, which were supposed to be a super invention. How did they use them? A couple of individuals (at different times in the movie) ran forward, stood out in the open, and pumped the handle back and forth a few times, firing from the hip. Never mind hitting anything.
Brilliant video, Tod. Thank you so much! Lots more data to add to my spreadsheets. The 800-850lb crossbow data is particularly helpful. You had done a range test on this crossbow in the past, and you achieved 217m with the 65 (1000-grain) bolt. This chrono test now supports my theory of the speed and weight needed for a 100lb bow (or fast 90-95lb) yew bow to reach that 200m (220-yard) statute distance in my last test. Thank you so much. Of course, I need to test with a bow as well, but this definitely puts me on the right path!
Now I want to play a siege level of a medieval spy game where you infiltrate a castle and then sneak around tossing all the crannequins, goats' feet, and windlasses into the forge to sabotage the enemy's defenses
There is a crossbow of even more power which is called the arbalest I believe. They are usually very very powerful and rare to find an antique example. They were a bigger deal on the continental mainland (Germany in particular) and were like under-sized balistas (Usually not carried around on campaign but on fortresses and city walls for use by troops and city watch etc).
I've always had a soft spot for goat's-foot-lever crossbows. It just seems like such a nice compromise between power, speed, and rugged dependency. Belt or stirrup loaded bows might be too weak against an armoured target, while a windlass bow is more like field artillery and lacking in ease of use or flexibility. Goat's foot however, sits just in the sweet spot IMHO.
The latchet crossbow has so much character to it, it's hard not to be fond of it. I realize a lot of time and resources would be needed, but seeing a magazine for the latchet bow (or attempting a medieval version of the adder) would be incredible.
I really appreciate the look at these items outside pure military. People tend to get so hung up on military they miss that people still wanted hunting tools or just fun gadgets back then.
Not sure it's the right niche but if anyone's in total fixation with hardcore Medieval Art of War (mostly collective tactics rather than individual weapons performance) I strongly recommend Schwerpunkt's videos series
Would love to see a chu ko nu video comparing it to the other crossbows you have made. A general video comparing Chinese composite crossbows to European ones would also be cool.
@@leeho8746 basic translation "i'm chinese, the transliteration chu ku no is outdated, it should be zhu ge nu thats how you write it in modern day. Zhu Ge was a famous strategist in the third kingdom, associated with many inventions such as the repeating crossbow.
He doesn’t show any asiatic crossbows. I understand he is based on England and allowed to make whatever content he wants. After all it’s a TH-cam platform where you post what your interested in
@@HistoricalWeapons I never said he has to make a video on it, I just gave a suggestion of something I thought would be interesting. Suggesting something isn’t forcing someone to do something.
I'd love to see a latchet steel bow reworked to use a composite bow just to see how much extra power the new materials would have made a historic bow have.
This was really really interesting. And as you said, 400 years but still so similar. And we think we are advanced now, but just to come up with that idea 400 years ago and make it work as good as it did. That's advanced.
Great video! Jeorg has created some amazing things the guy is a modern genius. Similarly, our ancestors were just as innovative with what they had available to them at the time. I hope Jeorg is a made man after all of his hard work getting these design functional and to market, I know he's a humble man that wasn't in it for the money but he certainly deserves it with the effort he's put in ❤️👌
it seems that with these inefficient steel limbs you can get more power if you use a heavier bolt. It would make sense to test most of these crossbows with heavy bolts of the same weight.
I love my adder. The adder is a perfect home defense weapon, particularly for those in Europe who can't own firearms like we can in America. Based on those numbers the adder is very, very good all around for the low 130lb draw weight.
I’d love to see you investigate and compare a classic Chinese crossbow. Not necessarily the crazy repeating one, but I want to know more about things change with their longer power stroke.
Looks like the goats foot and the adder shot right , the others knock the bolt up in a unpredictable manner. I always encountered that problem when making mini crossbows too. The head weight and string thickness and precisely where and how the string contacts the bolt make huge difference in elevation accuracy. Sometimes you want it to bump the bolt up if it’s a low power crossbow but I like straight flat shots . Your bolt needs to be as thick as your string if you have a fat string.
Mostly it is an issue with bows like the hunting bow that do not have a bolt groove, but a holder at the front because the bolt is already canted upward so does lift on launch, but as long as the lift is predictable there is no issue
Just the idea of a doohickey, that you do a thing to, then put a mini spear in it, so you can yeet it at someone or something is just so funny to me. The wobbling in the bolt in the footage of you shooting the cranequin and it just wobbling like that was really funny. Idk why.
I also would love to own the latchet bow, just because of the history, the beauty of the materials . . . Your comment about the plywood and the gib being different measurements made me smile. My grandad built his holiday home from shipping dunnage he recovered from the beaches of Great Barrier Island. It had been thrown overboard from shipping that was leaving port, and the different Nations that shipped here, had different sizes and lengths of dunnage So when we went to put new roofing iron up, it was mindbogglingly difficult, none of the purlings and rafters actually matched up, and you couldn't find a single line for the nailing down of the sheets.
Learning that those latchet crossbows were used as civil defense weapons puts the asiatic reflex bow into perspective that I'm shooting for purely recreationally purposes. It has a relatively low poundage (35@33) compared to actual war or hunting bows, but it does manage to get roughly 60 J and 1.3 kg m/s which on paper would beat even the adder.
Side note: there is a family business over at the Borders, it’s called Border Archery. If you’ve never seen their bows or know about their very rich history in making their recurve bows and crossbows, I highly recommend it. Take care Todd!
Medieval people didn’t need a bolt magazine because they usually had two or more crossbows and someone to load one wile the shooter shoots the other one. It’s still practiced with shot guns by pheasant hunters in England
I found this very interesting. The 800lb Windlass shoots at 161fp/s. I have a 55lb recurve bow that I have clocked at 165 fp/s at a 26" draw using modern carbon arrows with field tips. It is amazing how the differences in technology can achieve similar results. It fascinates me how the evolution of bow technology is so vastly different but has a realm of limitations that keep them within range of each other performance wise.
For the IP I'm writing, I intend on depicting a mass-produced shoulder-fired bullpup magazine-fed "gastraphetes", with a built-in latchet system like that of the siege for low-power quick shooting, all within a bronze and wood construction. Story-wise, I'm considering how the half-elf protagonist would influence the new dark fantasy world of steel and sorcery around her as technology slowly catches up to what she can stay ahead of. It's beloved creators like you and Joerg that bring so much inspiration to so many of us!!
Considering the big difference in draw weight between the crannequin and the goat's foot, it's a bit surprising how small the difference is between them in terms of energy and momentum. It just goes to show that draw weight is not the be all and end all when it comes to how hard that bolt is going to hit.
I probably just set the draw length or brace height a bit long on the goats foot or a bit short on the cranequin so the difference is slight in this case. I know the weights for the various bows I use so don't often weigh them. It is amazing how few mm can change the weight massively.
Crossbows generally are far less efficient than ordinary bows, medieval european crossbows especially so. Apart from compactness & quicker to train to use, why use 2 or 3+ the energy/strangth to shoot like a far lighter hand bow? Even a modern, more efficient crossbow takes c.175lb to shoot like a 70lb bow.
Yeah but you have to be trained and have experience for that to be true. If you got guys with no experience crossbows,spear, and maces or clubs make them a dangerous army fast.
@@tods_workshop I figured it was probably to do with the draw lengths, didn't think about the brace height. Obviously draw weight is very important to how a crossbow performs, but it's fascinating to me how many other factors also play into it!
on my bows, a 1mm increase in brace height equates to a 5mm difference in draw length weight. Not sure how to explain it as I don't really have the words, without writing an essay, but basically tiny differences in brace height make large differences in the ultimate weight because the bows stack so rapidly.
Fascinating. For some reason I'd always had it in my head that Windlass Crossbows could reliably launch projectiles at over 100m/s, but apparently not. As an aside, seeing the Goat's foot and Windlass used alongside each other has me wondering. I'd love to see some comparative armour and rate-of-fire tests for those two. To the best of my understanding, even a Windlass Crossbow can't penetrate a well-made cuirass, so it would be really interesting to see if some other variable showed up explaining the decline of the Goat's Foot, or if this is just another misconception. Great work as always.
Joerg has completely changed the game, and he's going to continue to do so. I love my Cobra Siege, and my Vlad, and I can't wait for the next crazy thing he comes up with.
There's a thing that always got me with these fast reloading small bows. If you can't reload before your - now thoroughly pissed off - adversary can reach you, the reload is a little moot. Different, of course, if you have a mate who is also loading theirs, but ideally you want that second bolt before the adversary can move from just in range to within sword's reach.
I dunno, the bolt has enough power to go in to flesh as far as the fletching at close range. That's an ugly wound which will ruin almost anyone's day immediately...
Don't be stupid. Someone bangs on your door, demanding you paying them the money back you won yesterday while they were drunk, you get the bow, and when they kick open the door, you put one in htem and then you run out the backdoor, laughing. All Crossbows are one shot things against someone running at you at full speed, which might be why nobody puts a magazine on them.
For some fights and battles though the crossbow troops would be among spearmen, or even laying under screens or pikes, which would make it more a thing of potential. Granted that was more a Swiss and German thing but you get the vibe. @@steemlenn8797
right at 3:30 i absolutely love that point and love it being brought up by respected knowledgeable scholars such as yourself! It's always been annoying to me how so many people regard medieval(or any historical era) peoples as dunces and idiots because they had less access to information or tech. I think it's why reading old stream of consciousness style novels are so entertaining, everyone jokes that "things change but people stay the same" but really truly I think people liken historical people to Encino Man. Always love your content, just wanted to give an extra thumbs up for a topic that deserves so much more attention than it gets in media :)
The latch bow was used by border horsemen and mainly used against unarmoured targets, and may have been used at Flodden by the border horse to slow the advancing shiltrons which almost turned the right flank of the English line
That clip of the repeating longbow mag Im imagining You have two guys An archer and a support When the mag is finished you trade the bow out for a loaded one and the support loads the first bow Then repeats. Much like how it was sometimes done with crossbows. A line of those would be devastating.
If you’d like to take a look, my channel has two latches that I made out of wood nothing that’s sophisticated but you gave me the idea i’m planning on integrating a magazine into it from my first repeater that I made in my 20s
Awesome comparison! I like especially that you add the energy/momentum, to give a full picture.👍 It‘s very enlightening to see that modern materials have 3x the energy here, didnt expect that. Just seen recently a comparison of a sinew/horn/wood bow with a carbon/wood bow from Armin Hirmer,both from Grozer, same parameters except thickness-and the same arrow weight achieved the same speed, nearly no difference! Looks like Steel is suffering of an density malus, beside other parameters. You touched the magazine question, and that one is open to me, why this was not considered desired-and the same with pistolgrips, that truly help with precision/safety-but it was considered not relevant-May be the mindset was not exactly the same, but things like pistole grip come in the way when worn on the back together with other items? We don‘t fully understand the european mediaval constraints, as I generally find the crossbow history odd-less and less powerstroke, more weight, bulky. Some say bows covered the fast-repeatin shooter role, so crossbows developped to mobile armor piercing artillery instead. That sounds feasible to me.
Back in the day the mini crossbows would be kept on your horse and if you were being chased by another horseman you could shoot their horse slowing it with injury allowing you to out run the pursuers.
Not always. Uphill, downhill, leaning off to one-side, making an angled approach etc. Cheviots area is notoriously hilly and undulating as well so the argument doesn't stand to the empirical. Down south in the flatlands more likely it's less effective. @@andrewsock1608
Range would play a big part in effectiveness . the bigger windlass bows would likely have been used at longer range. the light latchet bow ( for civil defence ) wouldn't need so much power as at nearly point blank range ( indoors for example ) you could lean around a corner and fire before the target even realised you were there.
I like the adder and own one, however it's manufacture leaves a lot to be desired. Plastic parts (side picatinny rails) that are bent in the middle. The forward rail where the foregrip goes is extremely weak, broke within the first hour of use, if you get one, toss the foregrip and fit a laser, the leverage is just too great for
I think they went from "just toys" to "actual weapons" quickly in the mind of politicians. To be fair they are real weapons and can really do some damage even if someone is untrained. It's a lot easier to get the hands on something like a bow or a crossbow than it is to get a gun, that should sum things up quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if something bad were to happen with a modern bow/crossbow involved it wouldn't be long until you needed a license or perhaps straight out banned.
I love this video and could not agree more with all the conclusions! Greetings from the Shot Show in Vegas.
Good to see you jeoge
Come by the archery range Jorg!
Your laugh never fails to bring me joy, keep up the great work good man.
Can't wait for the Interceptor @Slingshotchannel
Don't forget to visit our Tactical Gimp leather suits stand, it's close to yours and we know you germans love these
It's got zippers all over, even in the back
The latch crossbow seems like the same idea as a modern, low powered, concealed carry handgun. People always argue over stopping power and ballistics but sometimes you just want something that's convenient to use while being just inconvenient enough to get shot by.
Nicely put
And a tiny little 22 caliber is infinitely more effective than the desert eagle you left at home because carrying it is a bitch.
The other thing to consider is the border reivers were mainly raiding on either side side of the Scottish border regularly so a bow like this would be useful since you could load or fire it while mounted on handed and as raiders you generally don't run into guys decked out to fight if you can help it. So the lower power wouldn't be to much a problem in that context.
There’s a joke response to people who say .22 is too small of a caliber, “point to the place on your body you wouldn’t mind getting shot by a .22”. It’s the same with this crossbow.
The better analogy might be a carbine IMO. Reevers were not exactly civilian, more like state sponsored banditry, so I doubt concealing was the main use. Rather ease of use, tactical flexibility, and general lightness.
Tod was just innocently sitting there, contemplating his collection of medieval crossbows, as he does. But then the Adder bow began to whisper to him, calling in the back of his mind... _"You should show someone their features."_
in a german accent, obviously
Love to see Joerg's crazy inventions hitting the mainstream!
You could send him back in time and change history haha
he will show you its features😄
You should try making a magazine for that one. I'd love to see that.
I was just about to comment the same thing!
Same
Seems like it would be hard to mount with the way the mechanism works.
Possible but tricky, but a bit busy for something so speculative
Alofs reloading magazine, crossbow-style?
th-cam.com/video/hNIkca8k1UQ/w-d-xo.html
Honestly, for a civil usage, the latchet crossbow sounds just about perfect. What i'm thinking of is for example home defence, where you dont expect a heavily armoured knight to attack you, but rather a few outlaws or whatever. And there, it would definitely be beneficial to be able to shoot quicker, even if it comes at a cost to deadliness. It doesnt really matter if you kill with every single shot, as long as you can either get a few warning shots or a nasty wound, that should be enough to make the attackers change their mind. Plus, it is easy to use, pretty portable, probably quite simple to maintain/store, and you dont have any detachable parts to bother you in one way or the other.
The border reivers are know for quite light and limited armour.
Plus, if a few villagers gather together at the town gates, that flurry of bolts, no matter how small or short ranged, would make it a pretty daunting task to close to melee. Half a dozen bolts every 2-3 seconds, no raider is moving up that quickly from the outbuildings to the town gate.
At Andreas - my gut feeling is that you are right on pretty much all counts, but those with combat experience would be far better to comment than me.
Chinese repeating crossbow is best for that. 10+ bolts that can be shot at one every 1 or two seconds, reloads quite quickly too.
I was thinking the same thing. The latchet bow looks really good for an untrained person to use. Maybe it's like how people own a shotgun.
The 400-year-old design is such a lovely example of engineering (and Tod's craft).
"Fun, war, civil defence?" That sounds like a great description of this channel.
I remember watching Joerg making the prototype of that crossbow years ago 😊
FEATURES!
@@MonkeyJedi99, let me show you its...
Joerg made this for 400 years ago 🤔
I thought about trying to say it, but there is only one and I would have looked daft
1:30 I believe because it is an internal ammunition holder it is a clip, not a magazine.
If Jorge Sprave had been born in the middle ages I expect he would have invented plywood *and* weaponized it. He's a mad genius. I really love your craftsmanship Todd. Just beautiful work.
Roman shields are plywood
He would invent gold rubber and conquere the Europe
He'd be the friendliest warlord
LOL! 😆@@StonesSticksBones
He did. Read the Bonaccorso manuscript
The deal with the modern bow (Jörg's design) is the magazine.
That kind of changes everything about the concept, don't you think? If you're in a standing defence system you could make that a 90 arrow magasine which means constant fire, you could make it big to just push down on a wall which means power could be really great, you could make it a longer draw meaning distance shots... If you have a defence position and a crossbow with a magazine for the arrows and a court full of longbows you could take out basically anything along with the other traditional means.
Anyway, my point is that reloading in combat is a mindfuck that takes ages longer than what you ever have and I should know.
I still find that clip of 20 Joe's blasting out a hail of arrows impressive, hilarious and terrifying at the same time 😂
that part was terrific
Can you imagine an army on one side with those bows vs muskets. As they lift their muskets to aim, you hear the sound of a hundred bows clacking as one and a continuous hail of arrows are stabbing into your army. Then the rebels with rifles shooting from the trees.
I was told the the Border Reivers (not Reavers!) Used to refer to the bow as 'The Latch'. And yes, mine is a Border Reiver clan name.
I have one of Tod's excellent Dudgeon daggers. Might have to save for a latchet bow now 😊
Thanks for the support and no hard feelings over the raiding I hope
@@tods_workshop None - just don't mention the dudgeon dagger to the Armstrongs! ;)
@@tobyrobson2939 Or let one of us read it in the comment section.
Powerful enough being the key phrase
Exactly and this is the key point. If someone is barely wearing any armor that thing would get the job done, period.
the way you say Landsknecht has forever been hilarious: you're basically saying "land's snail/national snail".
Anyway, I love the dagger and am considering getting another :D
I know - I try and try, but I keep forgetting, but at least it amuses you rather than offends you
One should also not underestimate the importance of beauty: If you are walking around with the latchet bow every day as a longer range self defence weapon, then you want something that also puts a smile on your face every time you look at it. And the sheer elegance of this nifty little design absolutely does that.
Dark Elf general -- you have my attention! For Malekith!
Ah I see you are a man of culture as well. (Excited for the old world)
I understood this reference.
I bet there'd be a huge market for a Todd Cutler latchet bow with s "medieval style" magazine. No modern materials - a bow which could well have been built back in the medieval period, but unaccountably wasn't.
Indeed. Though for all we know it may have existed and just not survived or been noticed in the archaeology or records yet. Though I think ultimately it probably didn't - if you really want a magazine fed system it is going to be put on the slightly larger crossbow IMO - the added bulk for the magazine makes that smaller easier to carry crossbow suddenly just as awkward to transport and carry as the bigger one anyway, so you might as well have the more effective weapon and just build in the goats foot.
Though I expect I'd absolutely enjoy such a pretty little latchet bow with magazine and so might somebody wealthy enough to have it made even though its not that practical.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 I think all your reasoning makes sense, and I agree that you've probably put your finger on the answer to the question of why we don't find these things depicted in art or in the archeological record.
I believe that there was a sort of primitive, magazine fed ballista built by Archimedes. Not really a crossbow because it's torsion powered rather than tension, but not a million miles away. Didn't see much use though, the extra complexity in the device, the reduced power, and the increased loading time were too big draw backs for the increase in shooting rate. I believe the same was true for the Chinese repeating bows, which were more court weapons than battlefield ones.
@@QuantumHistorian Yes - earlier in this thread I said that the fact that magazines weren't widely enough used to have left any trace was "unaccountable". But now I realise that there were good, sound reasons for the people of that period to leave them well alone.
Bulk, complexity and the fact that magazines didn't let you shoot more bolts per hour, but simply let you deliver them in a succession of quick bursts, would top my new-found list of those reasons.
As a descendant of those Border Reivers, I am sure that my ancestors would have used the Adder, had it been available to them.
They were a practical people if nothing else.
Seems like bows went through a similar evolution to firearms. Obviously over a longer period. But today we use small, fast bullets because even though they may not remove massive chunks like say a musket would, it’s fast, accurate and will still more than do the job.
In the correctional facility I used to work in, we used pepperball guns (think paintball guns loaded with pepper powder) to break up fights. We had harder hitting less-lethal shotguns and 40mm launchers, but the sting of a pepperball was enough to gain compliance in most situations.
Even if the majority of injuries caused by this crossbow weren't lethal, the pain of being shot would be enough to deter further hostile action in most situations.
The 800 lbs draw weight made me realise I want to see a collaboration with someone like Eddie Hall, just to see how fast he can reload that crossbow.
Yup, medieval and Eddie Hall sounds good both together 😅
As fun as that sounds it's more of a technique kind of deal more than strength
@@styxspeedrun It's still a question, though, how much of the technique might be rendered unnecessary by someone as wildly outside the normal strength of a period crossbowman as Eddie Hall. And then, if he can learn the technique reasonably well how much might the system's potential be amplified by his greater strength.
No reason to go all the way with Eddie Hall, I wonder just how heavy a crossbow could Joe Gibbs draw, with his strenght and considerable prowess in drawing "classic" bows.
I imagine he could try to tackle the 600 pound area with some practice and good belt. Andreas Bichler draws 440 with a doubler belt, and he's bit older gentleman and as far as I am aware not able to draw 190 pound monster bows at all.
Are you guys talking about the guy that was on stan lees superhumans? He can roll up frying pans and tie horseshoes in knots.
One of those small bolts from the Reivers bow would certainly spoil your day if it didn't actually kill you! As always I enjoyed the video.
And if the bolt didn't kill you, with a week of festering, the wound infection most definitely could.
I love these videos. I wish you were teaching at uni. One of our lecturers got us to do design and build mini projects on some mediaeval seige engines. But your specific knowledge and passion is unparalleled. Thanks Todd. These videos help keep my engineering brain alive.
Adder on paper looks like fantastic example of LTL weapon. It prolly wont kill unless you hit in the neck, or face. But on the other hand it goes pretty fast and will hurt even when hit just in extremities.
As such I think it also deserves this "rethink one's options" kind of thingie.
Also that footage of Joe with several other shots of himself in same screen... Sounds almost like a damn M60 over here.😆👍
One of the funniest things I ever saw was in the Chinese movie Red Cliff - they had these repeating crossbows, which were supposed to be a super invention. How did they use them? A couple of individuals (at different times in the movie) ran forward, stood out in the open, and pumped the handle back and forth a few times, firing from the hip. Never mind hitting anything.
Yeah that’s right, it can shoot fast but they don’t really get to aim it because of that.
Brilliant video, Tod. Thank you so much! Lots more data to add to my spreadsheets. The 800-850lb crossbow data is particularly helpful. You had done a range test on this crossbow in the past, and you achieved 217m with the 65 (1000-grain) bolt.
This chrono test now supports my theory of the speed and weight needed for a 100lb bow (or fast 90-95lb) yew bow to reach that 200m (220-yard) statute distance in my last test.
Thank you so much. Of course, I need to test with a bow as well, but this definitely puts me on the right path!
Now I want to play a siege level of a medieval spy game where you infiltrate a castle and then sneak around tossing all the crannequins, goats' feet, and windlasses into the forge to sabotage the enemy's defenses
LOL but true.
There is a crossbow of even more power which is called the arbalest I believe. They are usually very very powerful and rare to find an antique example. They were a bigger deal on the continental mainland (Germany in particular) and were like under-sized balistas (Usually not carried around on campaign but on fortresses and city walls for use by troops and city watch etc).
wow I love the latchet
I see you've taken a cue from Paul Harrell with the meat target, nice!
I've always had a soft spot for goat's-foot-lever crossbows. It just seems like such a nice compromise between power, speed, and rugged dependency. Belt or stirrup loaded bows might be too weak against an armoured target, while a windlass bow is more like field artillery and lacking in ease of use or flexibility. Goat's foot however, sits just in the sweet spot IMHO.
Gotta love an education ad! Well done Todd. Keep them in there.
The latchet crossbow has so much character to it, it's hard not to be fond of it.
I realize a lot of time and resources would be needed, but seeing a magazine for the latchet bow (or attempting a medieval version of the adder) would be incredible.
I really appreciate the look at these items outside pure military. People tend to get so hung up on military they miss that people still wanted hunting tools or just fun gadgets back then.
Hey Tod? Do you make a Bec de Corbin? Or something similar?
Not sure it's the right niche but if anyone's in total fixation with hardcore Medieval Art of War (mostly collective tactics rather than individual weapons performance) I strongly recommend Schwerpunkt's videos series
Would love to see a chu ko nu video comparing it to the other crossbows you have made. A general video comparing Chinese composite crossbows to European ones would also be cool.
我是中国人，我不知道你们的翻译怎么回事这个连弩的正确读音应该是“zhu ge nu”这个分解开，里面的“zhuge”等于“诸葛”是中国三国时期的蜀国的人物，传言他很聪明经常会有发明，这个连弩就是他的众多发明之一，其中的“nu”等同于“弩”就是十字弓的意思
@@leeho8746 basic translation "i'm chinese, the transliteration chu ku no is outdated, it should be zhu ge nu thats how you write it in modern day. Zhu Ge was a famous strategist in the third kingdom, associated with many inventions such as the repeating crossbow.
He doesn’t show any asiatic crossbows. I understand he is based on England and allowed to make whatever content he wants. After all it’s a TH-cam platform where you post what your interested in
@@HistoricalWeapons I never said he has to make a video on it, I just gave a suggestion of something I thought would be interesting. Suggesting something isn’t forcing someone to do something.
Interesting as always. Great to see the return of the Joe Gibbs Rapid Fire Group.
I'd love to see a latchet steel bow reworked to use a composite bow just to see how much extra power the new materials would have made a historic bow have.
I absolutely love it when you do experimental archeology. I would love one of those Latchet Crossbows.
In terms of armor, of course, not powerful. Game hunting or home defense against no armor. Very effective indeed!
So nice to see Tod enjoying the spring.
I finally have a good bow to keep in mind when ttrpgs talk about a hand crossbow
Great Video, I would love to see this with the magazine feature.
This was really really interesting. And as you said, 400 years but still so similar. And we think we are advanced now, but just to come up with that idea 400 years ago and make it work as good as it did. That's advanced.
Tod, the "K" in Landsknecht is not silent! And I agree, the latchet crossbow is truly beautiful, it's the first time I saw this and I love it already.
Holy crap!! That's scary! 😳 Joe Gibbs X 30 all equipped with "Instant Legolas" would have changed history! 😁👍🏼
Thanks I never knew about the lachet
Great video! Jeorg has created some amazing things the guy is a modern genius. Similarly, our ancestors were just as innovative with what they had available to them at the time.
I hope Jeorg is a made man after all of his hard work getting these design functional and to market, I know he's a humble man that wasn't in it for the money but he certainly deserves it with the effort he's put in ❤️👌
I agree on every point that you made, there is both a place for old school and modern.
it seems that with these inefficient steel limbs you can get more power if you use a heavier bolt. It would make sense to test most of these crossbows with heavy bolts of the same weight.
I love my adder. The adder is a perfect home defense weapon, particularly for those in Europe who can't own firearms like we can in America. Based on those numbers the adder is very, very good all around for the low 130lb draw weight.
I’d love to see you investigate and compare a classic Chinese crossbow. Not necessarily the crazy repeating one, but I want to know more about things change with their longer power stroke.
Looks like the goats foot and the adder shot right , the others knock the bolt up in a unpredictable manner. I always encountered that problem when making mini crossbows too. The head weight and string thickness and precisely where and how the string contacts the bolt make huge difference in elevation accuracy. Sometimes you want it to bump the bolt up if it’s a low power crossbow but I like straight flat shots . Your bolt needs to be as thick as your string if you have a fat string.
Mostly it is an issue with bows like the hunting bow that do not have a bolt groove, but a holder at the front because the bolt is already canted upward so does lift on launch, but as long as the lift is predictable there is no issue
@@tods_workshop it just makes it less intuitive to shoot.
Just the idea of a doohickey, that you do a thing to, then put a mini spear in it, so you can yeet it at someone or something is just so funny to me. The wobbling in the bolt in the footage of you shooting the cranequin and it just wobbling like that was really funny. Idk why.
I also would love to own the latchet bow, just because of the history, the beauty of the materials . . .
Your comment about the plywood and the gib being different measurements made me smile.
My grandad built his holiday home from shipping dunnage he recovered from the beaches of Great Barrier Island. It had been thrown overboard from shipping that was leaving port, and the different Nations that shipped here, had different sizes and lengths of dunnage
So when we went to put new roofing iron up, it was mindbogglingly difficult, none of the purlings and rafters actually matched up, and you couldn't find a single line for the nailing down of the sheets.
Learning that those latchet crossbows were used as civil defense weapons puts the asiatic reflex bow into perspective that I'm shooting for purely recreationally purposes. It has a relatively low poundage (35@33) compared to actual war or hunting bows, but it does manage to get roughly 60 J and 1.3 kg m/s which on paper would beat even the adder.
Tour de force! Thanks.
Side note: there is a family business over at the Borders, it’s called Border Archery. If you’ve never seen their bows or know about their very rich history in making their recurve bows and crossbows, I highly recommend it. Take care Todd!
Medieval people didn’t need a bolt magazine because they usually had two or more crossbows and someone to load one wile the shooter shoots the other one. It’s still practiced with shot guns by pheasant hunters in England
I found this very interesting. The 800lb Windlass shoots at 161fp/s. I have a 55lb recurve bow that I have clocked at 165 fp/s at a 26" draw using modern carbon arrows with field tips. It is amazing how the differences in technology can achieve similar results. It fascinates me how the evolution of bow technology is so vastly different but has a realm of limitations that keep them within range of each other performance wise.
I just love these videos. Thanks Tod.
Well... the obvious thing to do is to make your favourite but with a magazine 😀 . Looking forward to seeing how it preforms.
Amazing content again, nice to see Joerg's invention. I'd love a discussion about the possibilities of compounds bows in medieval times.
For the IP I'm writing, I intend on depicting a mass-produced shoulder-fired bullpup magazine-fed "gastraphetes", with a built-in latchet system like that of the siege for low-power quick shooting, all within a bronze and wood construction. Story-wise, I'm considering how the half-elf protagonist would influence the new dark fantasy world of steel and sorcery around her as technology slowly catches up to what she can stay ahead of. It's beloved creators like you and Joerg that bring so much inspiration to so many of us!!
Considering the big difference in draw weight between the crannequin and the goat's foot, it's a bit surprising how small the difference is between them in terms of energy and momentum. It just goes to show that draw weight is not the be all and end all when it comes to how hard that bolt is going to hit.
I probably just set the draw length or brace height a bit long on the goats foot or a bit short on the cranequin so the difference is slight in this case. I know the weights for the various bows I use so don't often weigh them. It is amazing how few mm can change the weight massively.
Crossbows generally are far less efficient than ordinary bows, medieval european crossbows especially so. Apart from compactness & quicker to train to use, why use 2 or 3+ the energy/strangth to shoot like a far lighter hand bow? Even a modern, more efficient crossbow takes c.175lb to shoot like a 70lb bow.
Yeah but you have to be trained and have experience for that to be true. If you got guys with no experience crossbows,spear, and maces or clubs make them a dangerous army fast.
@@tods_workshop I figured it was probably to do with the draw lengths, didn't think about the brace height. Obviously draw weight is very important to how a crossbow performs, but it's fascinating to me how many other factors also play into it!
on my bows, a 1mm increase in brace height equates to a 5mm difference in draw length weight. Not sure how to explain it as I don't really have the words, without writing an essay, but basically tiny differences in brace height make large differences in the ultimate weight because the bows stack so rapidly.
Fascinating. For some reason I'd always had it in my head that Windlass Crossbows could reliably launch projectiles at over 100m/s, but apparently not.
As an aside, seeing the Goat's foot and Windlass used alongside each other has me wondering. I'd love to see some comparative armour and rate-of-fire tests for those two. To the best of my understanding, even a Windlass Crossbow can't penetrate a well-made cuirass, so it would be really interesting to see if some other variable showed up explaining the decline of the Goat's Foot, or if this is just another misconception.
Great work as always.
800# /6" is too little to bother a windlass. It can still be done with lever or belt
Ummm that opening, mind Blown
Fascinating! Thank you!
Another great video Tod. Thanks
Wonderful video, great comparison. Than you!
Joerg has completely changed the game, and he's going to continue to do so. I love my Cobra Siege, and my Vlad, and I can't wait for the next crazy thing he comes up with.
Yes he is an amazing guy
Wow the Goats Foot crossbow really seems to be the sweet spot, and It doesn't look obnoxious to reload either.
Lovely video, was a lot of fun to watch!
There's a thing that always got me with these fast reloading small bows. If you can't reload before your - now thoroughly pissed off - adversary can reach you, the reload is a little moot. Different, of course, if you have a mate who is also loading theirs, but ideally you want that second bolt before the adversary can move from just in range to within sword's reach.
I dunno, the bolt has enough power to go in to flesh as far as the fletching at close range. That's an ugly wound which will ruin almost anyone's day immediately...
But most propably will not kill him outright, so there is enough life time in him to run up to you and impale with his sword...
Don't be stupid. Someone bangs on your door, demanding you paying them the money back you won yesterday while they were drunk, you get the bow, and when they kick open the door, you put one in htem and then you run out the backdoor, laughing.
All Crossbows are one shot things against someone running at you at full speed, which might be why nobody puts a magazine on them.
For some fights and battles though the crossbow troops would be among spearmen, or even laying under screens or pikes, which would make it more a thing of potential. Granted that was more a Swiss and German thing but you get the vibe. @@steemlenn8797
Great video as always ❤
That longbow magazine is awesome
right at 3:30 i absolutely love that point and love it being brought up by respected knowledgeable scholars such as yourself! It's always been annoying to me how so many people regard medieval(or any historical era) peoples as dunces and idiots because they had less access to information or tech. I think it's why reading old stream of consciousness style novels are so entertaining, everyone jokes that "things change but people stay the same" but really truly I think people liken historical people to Encino Man. Always love your content, just wanted to give an extra thumbs up for a topic that deserves so much more attention than it gets in media :)
The latch bow was used by border horsemen and mainly used against unarmoured targets, and may have been used at Flodden by the border horse to slow the advancing shiltrons which almost turned the right flank of the English line
I have the Adder with a 7 shot magazine & a green laser/torch, amazing bit of kit.
That clip of the repeating longbow mag
Im imagining
You have two guys
An archer and a support
When the mag is finished you trade the bow out for a loaded one and the support loads the first bow
Then repeats.
Much like how it was sometimes done with crossbows.
A line of those would be devastating.
If you’d like to take a look, my channel has two latches that I made out of wood nothing that’s sophisticated but you gave me the idea i’m planning on integrating a magazine into it from my first repeater that I made in my 20s
Awesome comparison! I like especially that you add the energy/momentum, to give a full picture.👍 It‘s very enlightening to see that modern materials have 3x the energy here, didnt expect that.
Just seen recently a comparison of a sinew/horn/wood bow with a carbon/wood bow from Armin Hirmer,both from Grozer, same parameters except thickness-and the same arrow weight achieved the same speed, nearly no difference! Looks like Steel is suffering of an density malus, beside other parameters.
You touched the magazine question, and that one is open to me, why this was not considered desired-and the same with pistolgrips, that truly help with precision/safety-but it was considered not relevant-May be the mindset was not exactly the same, but things like pistole grip come in the way when worn on the back together with other items? We don‘t fully understand the european mediaval constraints, as I generally find the crossbow history odd-less and less powerstroke, more weight, bulky. Some say bows covered the fast-repeatin shooter role, so crossbows developped to mobile armor piercing artillery instead. That sounds feasible to me.
I absolutely love modern crossbows and my favourite is the excalibur eclipse XT it shoots like a old 200 lb war bow.
Tod, you should do a follow up video in 400 years that compares the newest version with these two.
I love the very British mix and match of imperial and metric units in the table.
ft/s and kgm/s - not a problem 😂
I try
Very insightful!
Back in the day the mini crossbows would be kept on your horse and if you were being chased by another horseman you could shoot their horse slowing it with injury allowing you to out run the pursuers.
Yeah, but the other shot is they could be doing the same thing to the guy's horse who they are pursuing. :)
@@Retro-Future-Land no the horses head is in the way
Not always. Uphill, downhill, leaning off to one-side, making an angled approach etc. Cheviots area is notoriously hilly and undulating as well so the argument doesn't stand to the empirical. Down south in the flatlands more likely it's less effective. @@andrewsock1608
Range would play a big part in effectiveness . the bigger windlass bows would likely have been used at longer range. the light latchet bow ( for civil defence ) wouldn't need so much power as at nearly point blank range ( indoors for example ) you could lean around a corner and fire before the target even realised you were there.
A magnificent example of convergent evolution!
This is so cool. I love this.
Awesome video as always
Thanks
Very interesting, Mr. Todd thank you😊
A pleasure
Love this thank you 😊
Another great video Tod!!!
I enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
The small medieval crossbow is really lovely. Such a beautiful piece.
And still powerful enough to stop an unarmored opponent.
Thanks and yes it would be dangerous, but is it dangerous enough?
Looks like it would get through padded armor, so probably ideal for reiver guys?@@tods_workshop
So you invented the instant legolas thing and Jörg hopefully gives you a piece of the cake
To put the energy of the bolts into perspective, they range from the equivalent energy of a bad punch to an okay punch.
I like the adder and own one, however it's manufacture leaves a lot to be desired.
Plastic parts (side picatinny rails) that are bent in the middle.
The forward rail where the foregrip goes is extremely weak, broke within the first hour of use, if you get one, toss the foregrip and fit a laser, the leverage is just too great for
I think they went from "just toys" to "actual weapons" quickly in the mind of politicians. To be fair they are real weapons and can really do some damage even if someone is untrained. It's a lot easier to get the hands on something like a bow or a crossbow than it is to get a gun, that should sum things up quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if something bad were to happen with a modern bow/crossbow involved it wouldn't be long until you needed a license or perhaps straight out banned.