3 Tips in 3 Minutes to Avoid Wonky Comb
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2022
- One of the biggest things holding back new beekeepers is a lack of drawn comb. It limits the space that the queen can lay, and can hold back the entire colony. In this video I share some photos of the terrible comb that my bees drew in year 1 and go through three tips to help you avoid the same issue.
When I'm talking about wonky comb, I'm not referring to small pieces of cross-comb. I'm talking about comb that doesn't follow the pattern on the foundation and isn't built directly on the foundation. This is about comb built BETWEEN frames rather than ON frames.
Here are the tips:
1. Don't use black plastic foundation. Plastic foundation is sturdy and it makes for very consistent frames, which is useful for beekeepers. Black is handy because it makes seeing eggs very easy. But this is by far the toughest material/color combination for bees to draw correctly. I've switched to white and yellow plastic foundation. I tried foundationless, but it has its own issues. I may do a separate video on that.
2. Wax your plastic foundation heavily! Either melt down wax and apply it with a foam roller brush, or take wax and rub it on the frame directly like a crayon. I keep my burr comb and wax cappings from the honey harvest to wax frames.
3. Push your frames together. Frames are self-spacing. They have the perfect amount of beespace between them when shoved tightly together. The extra space in the box should be entirely on the outside edge. When you give too much space, your bees will fill that with wonky comb instead of building out from the frames themselves. This was a huge issue for me. Such a simple mistake, with such frustrating results.
If you have wonky comb, don't scrape it off. I was told, scrape it off, try again. Instead of this, push it down directly onto the foundation so that it lays flat. The bees put a ton of energy into producing wax, so you're saving their effort by doing this.
Hope these tips help!
#beekeeping
#beginnerbeekeeping
#honeybees
Tips 2 and 3, makes tip 1 obsolete. never had a problem with black frames. As long as you live by 2 & 3. Spring is near!
Good comment from Reddit, before you smash the comb down onto the frame try to get any bees hiding behind it shaken out. Spot you queen and make sure she’s on another frame while you’re doing this.
I like black foundation in the brood boxes. it makes it much easier to see eggs. I use white for my honey supers.
Tried to make sure a new queen was laying yesterday, there were literally 12 eggs. Finding that tiny patch was as tough as spotting a virgin queen. Definitely the biggest tradeoff to using white foundation in the brood boxes.
Or foundationless. Sun coming through the comb easy to see eggs.
I see no differences in the color. Ive had yellow and black in the same box and they draw it equally well. It is usually the result of poor wax coating or a weak nectar flow/feeding. Bees need a heavy flow or heavy feeding to draw wax well. I've never heard of smashing the wonky comb down,I'll give that a try next time I see it. I usually scrape and rewax.
New beekeeper here……ugh. You know that thing where you heavily research everything for a year & you REALLY think you know what you’re in for, as well as you can possibly know without doing it…so you’re all confident & then you get your beautiful, perfect bees home….and you don’t know ANYTHING anymore? 🙋♀️
I have a Langstroth hive with 2 brood boxes, 10 frames in each, and a honey super with 10 frames. I obviously don’t have the honey super on it yet, they’ve only been here for about a month, and they seem to be coming along excellently. This whole thing really isn’t about getting honey, or some kind of side hustle….I just found out a couple of years ago that bees are freaking amazing & I love them. So, it’s about that. And honey is a nice side effect. But…..they’re building some wonky-ass comb. Unfortunately, it started on the comb I had the queen cage attached to, and it got pretty prolific before I realized it was a problem. I just thought maybe they went to art school….or they are just very creative. I was PROUD of them! The biggest piece of wonky comb broke a week ago & it had a ton of uncapped brood…so I used twine to attach it to a frame without any comb on it & when they secured it, I cut the twine. They capped some of the brood, but they moved most of them….back to where they were - they rebuilt the wonky comb. Lol. Today I planned to go in there & deal with it…remove the comb & attach it to frames without any comb. But, virtually all of the brood is in that comb. I’ve had people tell me that I’m anthropomorphizing the whole thing…that it’s the best time to lose brood, they’ll rebuild…they’re not emotionally attached to them. I don’t know, maybe I am….but I can’t bring myself to kill them in the name of appropriate comb building. It’s my fault, not theirs. I’ve been told to remove it & when the brood is all dead, clean it out & give it back to them. I’ve been told to melt it down, I’ve been told to smash it. All of those options are straight up soul crushing. I figure, If it breaks again, I’ll just handle it like I did the first time, and try to salvage what I can. Once the hive has built up its numbers & is stronger, then maybe I’ll feel better about genocide. I’ve been watching the other frames MUCH closer & when it starts to look wonky, I smash it down before they put anything in it. They’re drawing out beautiful comb on the other frames now. It’s basically just the 1 frame…but it’s the biggest section of comb. I feed them sugar syrup, and I spray syrup on the frame foundations, which are black, but waxed well.
Is it going to be a huge problem if I leave this one wonky frame of comb for the time being? Will it end up being the death of them? Can I wait to deal with it until after the capped brood emerges, at least? These emotions are new, and weird! Lol. I’m a doctor! I deal with blood & guts, and death, and life…all the time. But these bees have me all twisted up 😂 I love the stupid little beautiful marvels!
I haven't had issues specifically related to black foundation. Where I have seen this most is when new foundation is used that is sold with a wax coating that is not adequate. If you use new plastic foundation, roll on additional wax. I use an old electric skillet and a foam roller.
Not adequate and sometimes missing completely. There are some sellers on Amazon including bare foundation in their “beginner kits”. New beekeepers are unlikely to know the importance of waxing frames, and probably don’t have a good source of beeswax.
Great tips!
Just what I needed to hear
I'd had similar findings with them liking the natural stuff more than the black foundation. I do find it interesting how they will take to some materials faster than others. Thanks for the video.
Easier to find eggs on the black foundation, but if they won't draw it out it doesn't matter.
I've kept bees on plastic (yellow, white, black). I've used wax foundation. I've used waxed plastic foundation. I've use unwaxed foundation.
In the twenty five years of beekeeping I found any foundation will be drawn. It matters on the strength in numbers, and the honey flow as to whether your bees will draw comb. IF they don't need new comb they won't build it.
Keep your frames tight when getting bees to draw wax. Sometimes you get this problem and sometimes you don't.
But most often this has happened when I put too many frames with foundation for the bees to draw.
Beebob’s comments are very similar to those of my beekeeping mentor. Thanks for the video.
Thank you for the video. I was taught to scrape the comb off and to do the same with the excess on the top of the frames when housekeeping. On my hives I started placing the removed comb at the side of the front entrance and normally the ladies will immediately remove the honey and them remove he comb to use inside. It takes a lot of energy to generate that wax so I think smashing it or placing it at the front is a great solution.
Bees of only a limited young age can produce wax from their bodies so unless you have new brood the hive won't be producing new wax.
Placing wax near the entrance attracts wax moth in many countries so beware upsetting the bees this way. Its always better to find a way to supply food or salvaged goods like honey or wax to the bees inside their hive to prevent bees and pests discovering the other hives and to prevent cross-contamination of varroa mites and other problems in a feeding frenzy from various hives within minutes of placing honeyed wax outside near the hives.
nice video, thanks
I use double waxed black plastic frames from Acorn and have had no problem with them. I find the biggest advantage to them is how easy it is to identify eggs against the black plastic.
Acorn or Premier’s extra-heavy is the way to go if you want to use black foundation. I’m using the yellow from Premier and the white from Acorn. The white does make it hard to spot eggs, but man they draw it out fast.
If either would like to sponsor my next video i’m a cheap date.
No Black Foundation ? Or too many Bees in the way (!) to sign of Queen laying ?
Or if you can't "See" your Eggs, because they are Tiny !Get your Smart Phone out .. Take a Photo ! And in Gallery mode ZOOM IN !!! 👀
You will see any "Eggs" with no problem ! Even through a Bee Veil, even if you have left your Specs at Home, in the Car etc.
Works a treat and a bonus, is you have a 'dated' Record !
😎
... See sign of Egg laying. Doh :Typo ! 🤭
Acorn is the best. Double coated black plastic frames. But you should use them in a same year you bought.. 2 years old wax - no good.
I bought teens of thousands in many years- i saw only 4-5 frames with broken shoulders so far.
Omg. Thank you so much.
Thanks, i have this problem. I waxed all my frames but only 1/2 drew properly. Ill try smashing down the wonky comb.
Thanks
Is this thing common in the states? I keep bees in Germany, but although I know this plastic foundation frames, here it's very rare used. We get empty frames and equip these with so-called Mittelwänden, wax plates with the structure of the combs. These are then build to combs by the bees. And I never had this problems.
Brand new beekeeper here, getting my first nuc next week. What do you mean by putting wax on the plastic? How do you do that?
never mind just saw the same question below.
Smash it down even if it has honey/brood/pollen in the cells?
I have had best results with DD black foundation over yellow foundation. I thinks it’s more how much wax is melted on before.
How do you correctly add wax to frames.
Holy, this helps a lot. I just went down and they build comb right over the frame. It pissed me off.
We've had many instances of them building off, not on the black foundation, with bees staying behind the comb.
At some point it starts to feel personal.
One more suggestion, put foundation above the queen excluder. I have found most of this cross comb, as seen in your picture, is drone comb. It’s the bees fulfilling their urge to raise drones. Above the excluder where the queen has no access the bees will follow the pattern on the foundation better. They will also draw all the way to the bottom bar without leaving a gap. What do you think?
I tend not to use excluders but this makes sense to me. As long as the original issue wasn’t because of spacing or bare foundation it would probably help. I don’t think i’d try it unless the hive population was extremely healthy.
I would shake the Bees off the Wonky Drawn Frame:
Like one at Start of Video.
I would Scrap that Wax Off. Melt it all down in a Bain Marie (Can over Pan of Hot Water.) And use a Tiny Paint Roller to Re Wax the whole Plastic Foundation (Frames affected !) Again.! 🤗
Bees will drawn that out better than mashing it Flat !
I don't personally use any Plastic Foundation. I prefer Natural Drawn Comb, that has x3 Tension Wires Stretched Super Tight... It Twangs !
I can Extract these no problem in my Honey Extractor, with no Natural Comb Collapse at all...
Tip:
Get a Frame. Bag in a Side Top Nail, thread Frame Wire from Hole side to Hole side, to final bottom hole, near nail, BUT before Securing Off. Get a Carpenter Long Slider Bar Clamp : Put it from Side to Side so Frame is pressed in a bit aka it's under Outside incoming Pressure....
Now :Twist your End Wire around Holding Nail. Cut.
THEN Un-Clamp Frame ! 👀
The Wires will be super Tight so much so, they will never Sag or lose Tension ever.👍
And you can dispense with that Beek Wire Crimper Tool (They are useless !)
A thin Strip of Timber as a starter Strip Dipped in Wax works well (I bag free Crates from Fruit Stores. Trash !) ... Break up a Crate Sides : that Oranges, Exotic Fruit come in... It has super thin Wood you can cut with a Knife or even Scissors into 1/2" Strips. You can Wax these Strips dipping their Edges in a long Metal Tray. Then Glue & tack them into Foundation 'Slot" under the Top Bar. Simples. 👍
Feed, Feed Feed Bees 1:1 Syrup : It replicates Nectar and Bees like super thin Nectar to Build Wax Fast.
(Think of Swarms... They build Wax Comb in 48,hrs !
Because they carried Nectar with them on Swarming.)
😎
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝
Happy Beekeeping 2022.
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝
Tip :
Bee Comb in Frames is far more important than Honey Harvest... When starting Bee Keeping. It's worth its weight in Gold. Keep it Safe to over Winter in Hive Boxes Mice and Moths can't get in to !
Your new Bee Season will go so much better with Comb you have already. Eg for Nucs, Splits, Adding either additional Deeps or Supers to your Hives. Nice ! 😎
Awesome, you covered it all
I put a box with half yellow frames and black frames. My hive rejects the black foundation and only uses the yellow.
I never see a color difference , but the hive must be side to side level. It can slope a tiny bit front- back.
Some colonies are bad for cross-comb, others just build straght perfect sheets.
Leveling the hive side-to-side is a good point that i would add if i was making this again.
It's dark in there, if your hive doesn't have holes. How would bees know what color?
Not saying they can see a difference. I’ve never had wonky comb on white or yellow foundation. Could be a small sample bias on my part.
Seems like this is the most controversial thing i’ve posted so far. Next spring i’ll do some testing. Half white, half black foundation in a new box. See if they show a preference in the same box.
GREAT advice......we were all caught-up with the idea of being able to see eggs clearer with black foundations. So what? After that, black plastic has no business in beekeeping. Stick with all bees wax foundations. The bees have been liking it for ages.
Wax foundation is easily the quickest to get pulled.
I painted wax on to a few new frames for my hive this year and I noticed some cells have more wax than others. Will the bees fix that on their own?
I’d expect them to draw out the more heavily waxed areas first, but i wouldn’t worry about it.
I melt the wonky comb with a heat gun and brush it over the plastic
Please show your method fir waxing the plastic foundation
I’ll see if i can get a video together. May through July tends to be a sprint for me, so i end up warming a block of beeswax up to about 120F (49C) and rubbing wax onto the foundation. It’s the fastest method i’ve found, but probably not as good as melting the wax and painting it on with a sponge roller. I put the wax in the oven on the lowest setting and pull it out after 3-5 minutes (timing totally depends on your oven). Don’t put it in a dish you want to use for anything besides wax.
when you say you wax the plastic foundation, do you paint melted wax onto it, pour into the sheet to fill it, or do you dip the sheet prior to putting it into the frame? Thank you.
Working on a video about this now actually! The best way for most small scale beekeepers is to melt wax in a double boiler and use a foam paint roller to “paint” it onto the foundation. Leaves a beautiful coat of wax.
I don’t tend to have time for that mid-season. So i take a warm block of wax and scape the foundation. If it flakes it’s not warm enough. It should adhere. If you end up with a bunch of wax flakes you can use a hair dryer to melt them on. Just don’t go overboard and warp the foundation.
Melt the wax and paint it on.
first time keeper and got those black frames with my hive. I'm in week 3 and did an inspection today and found this on one frame. the other 2 they are drawing out beautifully. I guess one of them just didn't have that good a coat of wax. So I should shake off the bees and smash them down huh? I was considering replacing that frame before it got to far
Also possible that the spacing on that one frame was off. If there's too much space between frames they'll draw wonky comb to fill it. If they drew the other two out okay it may not be the amount of wax.
@@BeensBees should I smash them down? Or cut them off? Not really sure what to do. Got my facebook hacked so I can't even ask my group about it.
@@theuneducatedman5375 best practice is to melt wax and paint it on evenly. But if you don't have an extra frame to replace it with, smash it down as thin as possible and put it back in. What you don't want is them to keep building off of the wonky stuff.
@@BeensBees thanks so much!! I've been wondering what to do. I don't open it back up for a few more days normally but maybe I should stop this before it gets worse. Thanks again for the help!
Also happens if their queenless
How are you supposed to smash the wonky comb down when it’s covered in bees and full of brood? One of my hives is a huge mess with comb like this, not a single frame drawn out properly so I haven’t really known how to go about cleaning all 10 frames up when it’s mostly all capped brood and all the bees are between the comb and the foundation?
This is tough, there's really no easy solution. It sounds like you've got one deep right now? Is the population big enough for a second deep? You could add that, wait for the queen to start laying in the upper box, then put a queen excluder between the two deeps making sure the queen is in the top box. Then you could wait for all of the brood in the bottom box to hatch out before fixing the comb in the bottom box.
Where do you get the wax to coat the frames? I'm been told to ONLY use your own wax but if you are a new beek you don't have any extra wax.
In my first year I did pull off some wonky comb to melt down and try again, but more than that I used burr comb. I don't bother scraping down all of the burr comb now (they tend to rebuild it), but in my first year it was super helpful to have. Kept a ziplock bag in the freezer and melted it down when I had enough.
This is also a great reason to find another new beekeeper in your area to share resources with. I'll use wax from people I know and trust.
What wax do I use and where can I get it? I have black frames and need to wax them.
The advice I've always heard is only use your own, which is why it's such an annoying issue for new beekeepers. If you don't have any you can ask your local association if anyone has any, or buy new, heavily waxed frames and save the ones you have for next year. @premierbeeproducts and @acornbeekeepingequipment are both fantastic and I've never had any issues with either.
Need comb guide
The color of the foundation has nothing to do with how well they will draw it out. You are correct that plastic foundation needs to have a good coat of wax on it. You are better off scraping off the wonky comb and applying melted wax to the foundation.
Can’t always scrape and reapply mid-season. I found a frame last week with perfect new comb on one side, completely laid up. Other side must have had some weird spacing because it had a gap between it and the foundation. Smashing it down is extremely useful for cases like this and they tend to draw it out quickly and correctly.
Plus, a lot of new beekeepers are resource limited and don’t have extra frames around, potentially haven’t ever melted down comb. That first flow comes with a huge learning curve. Mostly aiming to help people survive years 1 and 2.
Im dealing with this. First year keeper
It sucks. Hopefully you can work through it quickly. In my first year my queen was out of space to lay except on the wonky comb, so I left it too long. Set me back the whole year.
Pressed some stuff without eggs to frame, cut some out. And waxed heavy. Keep ya posted.
@BeensBees
I've done a lot of these. Colour is irrelevant as bees can't see in the dark.
If you scrape your nail gently against the frame and you feel plastic as opposed to soft wax, then the bees won't treat it as foundation. You need to feel wax.
Looking at your frame..the bees have chewed off the wax. Either too thin or sitting in the hive too long with no nectar flow. Don't put in freshly waxed foundation unless you are feeding or a nectar flow on, otherwise bees will simply chew it off. Put the wax on thick and hot. It even helps to warm your plastic frames first. Work fast and work in a warm room too. Wax will not adhere well to cold plastic and bees will pull it off quicker. You need to work with wax hot. Rubbing wax on is a waste of time as it's not adhered strongly. You need a lot of wax to prepare these correctly. Pay particular attention to edges, especially sides and bottom. You should be able to see the wax adhered visually. Bees don't draw on correctly on plastic. You have to completely fool them its wax they're drawing on, not plastic.
This video is aimed at beginning beekeepers. Most 1st year beekeepers don’t have extra wax or even extra frames. They need an easy way to fix the issue DURING an inspection. Scraping the wax on in situ luckily does work, especially if it’s filled with some nectar/honey.
New beekeepers shouldn't start out on plastic foundation 🙂 Prevention is the best cure
@@BeensBees As a new beekeeper i bought some wax online and my bees started drawing out with no problem but no final results yet will update if there'll be some wonky comb
@@ahmedbounce3053 Your best resource as a new beekeeper will be other beekeepers. Eventually you'll have your own stockpile of wax, but in the meantime borrowing from someone you know and trust is huge.
I use black in my brood box with success, I just add a little wax
Yeah, if we didn’t have some suppliers selling essentially bare plastic it wouldn’t be such an issue. Acorn seems to do a good job of waxing their stuff.
@@BeensBees I don’t trust any of them to use more than a teaspoon lol I wax the heck out of them and they seem to go nuts and start building away , I guess the sweet feed helps out too , I’ve never used black outside of the brood box so I don’t know what it would be like in a super
Oh no I just put black foundation in my brood box I replace my foundationless frames because the see built the comb side ways and about 3 frames were stuck together. I was not aware of needing to wax the black frames.
Some companies pre-wax pretty well. Never had any issues with Acorn. But yeah if you can’t feel a solid coat of wax i’d consider melting down some of those foundationless ones that didn’t go well and using that to get the black foundation waxed up. A small foam paint roller does the trick.
Box store foundation has barely a wisp of wax. Bees hate it. Burr comb all day. Rolling on a generous coating of reclaimed wax helps. Wired wax foundation never fails. Side note...hard to squash beetles and moths with wax foundation. 😮😢😂
Totally agree on all points. Wired wax has shifted on me a bit when it’s freshly pulled. Not as bad as foundationless, but that new soft wax can be tough to work in the heat.
Usually when your population is good and you feed them a good syrup they will make better comb too
What difference does it make what color the bees are in a pitch black hive 24 7 they cant see the color ?
🤷🏻♂️ didn’t say i understood why
Pro tip:
Use the spare hair dryer to soften the wax before you smash it, or ball it up, "color" the foundation like a crayon while it's soft, then use heat to get it to stay put.
Hint:
Don't use the wife's new hair dryer.
They're like ten bucks at any dollar type store.
Great idea, i’ve been stashing wax in the garage to soften it up but this is better.
I think you should waxing proper this plastic sheet
Just bee careful to make sure the queen isn't hiding in there!! ;)
this why you just spring for the foundation that has been extra heavily waxed as apposed to the standard light wax... i've never had a problem when using the double waxed black foundation
Only way to use the black foundation. I think the issue is there are a few suppliers selling bare plastic foundation. If you’re just starting out you don’t have extra wax sitting around to wax them yourself. Add on a tendency by new beekeepers to add on more boxes too early and you end up with what i had, an absolute mess.
wired non plastic is best in my opinion, i built my numbers up to 350 hives using it, in australia they stopped making it, too many scabby beekeepers not prepared to spend the extra money for the vertically wired foundation, if you use it ,embed with foundation resting on or in bottom bar otherwise you will often be left with a gap along bottom, if you have this issue you can put them all in one box and put it on hive upsidedown and they will do their natural ''thing'' and fill in gap. put on hive with young queen and they will do all worker cells. i only ever put foundation on supers , not in brood chamber, and only on good honey flow..........
I tried no-foundation in a few hives last year. I was meticulous about frame spacing and ensuring that the hives were level, and it was still a bit of a mess. The new wax was beautiful and they drew it out really quickly, but it was so soft that it tore on nearly every inspection. I got quite a bit of drone comb. Should i have put in some sort of wiring before i put those frames in?
If you put Box upside Down .. to get gap filled !?! ALL your Cells will point Downwards ! Once you put those Boxes back the right way !
All Comb had Cells that are Channels Higher at Cap, than at Midpoint (or Foundation !)
See images of Cross Cut Comb.
Think before you follow a trick. Not all are a Treat ... More a Nightmare in sorting out the mess later. 😱
@@BeensBees Yes ! See my Reply.....In earlier Comment.
All Instructions given. 😎
Bees weren’t crazy about drawing out wax foundation either. Frame spacing is the key on foundation. Next time take a heat gun and just melt the wonky comb onto the foundation. Black, white, yellow, no real difference. 54 years keeping bees.
Hi I am VINOD and I am commercial indian beekeeper.
Hi Vinod, how many hives are you running?
I have 50box apis melifera and 20box apis cerana.
I want your summer Beekeeping experience. I will lost my bee box please sher you.
this happens when foundation is not waxed of waxed poorly
Has more to do with the manufacturer not heavy wax coating the black foundation, not the color. Mashing down the bad comb doesn't fix that problem. Scrap and rewax. My 2 cents. On the other hand you never see a commercial beekeeper mashing bad comb.
Rewaxing is definitely best practice, but for a lot of beginner beekeepers they don’t have extra frames and need an immediate solution. I wouldn’t expect commercial beekeepers to be in this scenario to begin with.
I’m also wondering if it’s a particular brand of foundation that’s being sold bare. I’ve inspected some hives that have foundation with NO wax.
I have had black plastic get drawn out perfectly, at times, but invariably if I have a crappy, poorly drawn frame, it's black. I see people below saying "color doesn't matter it's dark in the hive." The only thing I can figure is the actual dye or chemical makeup of what goes into black is different than lighter colored frames, I don't know. Or my bees are just racist ladies. Am I allowed to assume my bees' gender these days? We are all gonna get cancelled, lol.
I have no idea why it happens but I think this is 100% the thing I've said that upsets the most people. It's either that or when I quoted Tom Seeley's work on ideal swarm traps entrance sizes.
Nothing to do with foundation color, yes apply wax with foam roller and install during honey flow or feed with sugar water they will draw it out
Failed to explain how to wax the plastic.
Usually I will just melt down some wax and brush it on with a paint brush. Good idea to keep some extra wax around for this.
Don't use plastic, simple
I don’t see any reason to use plastic foundation when you got to heavily wax it anyway so why not just use beeswax foundation they will readily accept , to me this just does not make any sense but to creat lazy bee keepers thinking they can just put plastic in there and it will be all okey dokey not to mention isn’t there enough plastics in the world with out using more plastic , just sayin. I myself will always stay with wax that what bees do build wax ,can’t blame them for shunning the plastic ,they know it’s not theirs so why waste your time with un natural bee keeping accessories , food for thought.