Science Faith and Religion
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- Public debate, pitting atheist against believer, typically yields a polarized picture. Might a more nuanced conversation that transcends simplistic assertions, and weaves insights from physics, biology, and psychology provide a more fruitful exchange of ideas? Bill Blakemore hosts scientists Lawrence Krauss, Ken Miller and Guy Consolmagno, and philosopher Colin McGinn to find out.
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Original Program Date: June 13, 2009
MODERATOR: Bill Blakemore
PARTICIPANTS: Colin McGinn, Kenneth Miller, Lawrence Krauss, Guy Consolmagno
Bill Blakemore Introduction 00:00
Participant Introductions 04:16
New discoveries with science and faith 13:24
Ken Miller explains teaching science and having faith 17:44
Colin McGinn on atheists and faith 23:03
Guy Consolmagno on believing in the unseen 27:18
Lawrence Krauss why NOT to have this discussion? 31:42
The cultural context of science and religion 42:58
Religious movements the good vs the bad 51:28
Do you believe in miracles? 01:01:28
The evidence of God 01:13:14
Questions from the audience 01:15:52
Is religion mostly supported by indoctrination? 01:20:39
Is religion the bully to science? 01:25:16
The easy targets of Abrahamic faiths. 01:30:18
Will the big bang be the connection of science and religion? 01:38:35 - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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I'm entirely with Professor Krause. Once we define life correctly, we'll find that biology is the ultimate evolution of chemistry, what we think of as consciousness is the ultimate evolution of biology, science is the ultimate evolution of superstition and we'll redefine God as a set of 20+ constants from which, the quantum particles were permitted to practice the Google plex number of combination on the medium of space time for lack of a better understandable or definable concept, to leave behind the most universe at the lowest energy cost of matter. Everything else, is us giving meaning to a meaningless purpose in search of a compass that only points to where we individually wanted it to point to, with our philosophies need to find order, for it all to have happened. Take a few steps back to the larger picture and you'll find this mindless but inevitable order without a need for a mythological God in a Quantum roam that only plays the numbers game.
I do not believe in any Abrahamic concepts of God. I am AGNOSTIC about concept of a pantheisic God, the Deistic IMPERSONAL God, that created humans in ITS image and who created the entire universe just for us. Christians did ....appropriate Hellenistic Pagan Philosophical Naturalism as the handmaiden to support their SUPERNATURALISM.
Enjoyed the guest's on the 7yr old panel. Hope to hear a recent discussion on science, religion, atheists
Don't really need yet another American perspective, the algorithm for me here. Every science search I do ends up with a bazillion suggestions for crap like this. Thanks, done this, maybe push Google to do Ri or Gresham?
@@simonleonard5431 Agreed. They are artists in making serious subjects sound like bs.
What was great about this conversation is that it was a conversation, and not a debate.
A Dawkins nightmare. This is exactly why Richard Dawkins does not like moderators. This was a potentially good conversation, but ruined by a moderator who adores the sound of his own voice. Always 20 minutes introduction and constant unwelcome interruptions. Whoever appointed Blakemore to moderate this, made the VERY WRONG decision.
And I can see I'm not alone by the comments below.
The moderator was annoying!
Yeah, and he said that he was able to be open minded, yet he was so clearly one sided in favor of religion.
Dawkins is a lightweight, it's no surprise he's almost forgotten
@@fredriksvard2603
Indeed, I am a true militant unapologetic anti theist. Dawkins was a little soft on the disease of the mind called religion.
@@bearlemley it's more about the credibility than the position he takes
There is a clear and obvious reason we keep instinctively pondering the science and religion debate. We all know deep down we are all connected; on every level and to everything and at every point in time. That truth is all you need to settle the debate. Science and religion agree. Debate over.
The Truth of the Matter ❤️✌️😘
True. I kinda lost my religious beliefs when I discovered Physics. That brought me to the study of Quantum Physics. Guess where that brought me. Yep, back to God.
As an agnostic neuroscientist I just absolutely can not believe how horribly this was conducted. The moderator was unbearable and just generally ridiculous, interjecting with absurd remarks constantly. And I came hoping to find inspiration in religion and faith and dear God I hope this panel ran out of funding after getting the atheists, because holy shit the lack of actual logical reasoning on the side of the theists was so infuriating. How difficult is it for theists to realize that scientists don't actually fully believe in their theories? Do you think anybody would lead a crusade and kill people in the name of String Theory? We all know our models are wrong, but they're just right enough to be useful - that's what we care about. We aren't looking for some divine truth, because there is not a falsifiable hypothesis that could be really be tested to answer that question. We're trying to explain the world to the best of our abilities, not to pray to the almighty general theory of relativity. And do you really think internal experiences are proof of God? Ever heard of the placebo? The brain is a lot more complex than you can understand. If you think experiencing pleasure or other "unexplainable" sensations are somehow disconnected from willfully committing the ignorance of divine subscription to one faith, and the subsequent willfully ignorant comfort of KNOWING that your God is on your side, KNOWING that everything will be okay, and KNOWING that you will live forever, then you're very, very wrong, coming from a researcher in neuroscience. The ONLY logical point made by the theists was that it is irrational to be atheist because then you have to deny all Gods, including ones you do not know about or understand. Other than that and the great arguments and thoughtfulness from the atheists, I was very disappointed with nearly every aspect of this conversation, and it really saddens me that this was the really best the World Science Fair could manage.
...Starts eventually at around 17:48
+Adam Mangler
Silly question at around 45:00 "What does Lawrence Krauss know that we don't know?" - _Physics_ ...
Thanks lol 👊🏼
Mr. Blakemore loves the sound of his voice.
Is he the moderator?
You must give Mr. Blakemore a lot of credit. Many, many sons of evangelical Christians follow the christain? and especially the monetary accomplishments of their father. Mr. Blakemore is making his own mark in the world.
@@bigaschwing2296
Yes and that might be why ...
I didn't feel this attitude.
That's projection, concern yourself with yourself and do better.
Leap of faith just came to mind,inspirational…
I have no problems with the Gods of man, it's their fan clubs that piss me off.
A fan of Satan!
I like that.
Ahhh well said 🙂
7 years later this comment still gold 💯
The participants in this discussion seem to have a good sense of humor. It's good that everything went smoothly and didn't turn ugly.🤓👀😅✔️🆗
A pleasure to listen to Lawrence Krauss being the voice of reason and killing it yet again.
This didn't age well
He's to worked up and arrogant, Greene strikes a better balance and has a better understanding of non-scientific aspects of thinking
Thank you Lawrence Krause for pointing out the pointlessness of this irrational panel.
@@fredriksvard2603 - I think its because he loaths the bullshit irrational behavior and doesn't suffer fools.
@@mikesales8611 sure, but you don't reach fools that way and it can make undecided people suspicious - is this guy dogmatic, indoctrinated in his own way?
Knowledge either changes and/or eventually passes away, but there is an experience that is beyond the ability to express IT with words. We think we know because of the words we choose, even in poetry. Now, in true experience, Vertical Awareness in Conscieness is The Way Ineffible.
Bill Blakemore was one of my teachers at a boarding school in Lebanon in the 60s. Enjoyable fellow.
if you are a dimwitted religious American, ....sure...
“without going into depth” *continues to go into depth*
I love it! thanks to you all for sharing!
It's all in the mind and because these things perturb you you speak about them and whatever we speak about is brought into existence. As It is, you can't deny the existence of that which does not exist. Live Now!
[Three things that you have to understand to be free from the endless doubts]
1) the physical world that we feel as the five senses is finite, incomplete, always changing, temporarily existing, very passive and relative. 2) There certainly is a world of intangible reasons (eg. mathematics world) that transcends these temporary physical worlds, whose properties are diametrically opposed to them and are always right. 3) Life is an intermediate being between these two worlds, whose body interacts with the physical world and spirit interacts with the reason world, while the spirit leads the body, and thus the greater the spirit, the more active and the larger (more spacious and longer) lived.
So you need to fully understand the worlds of material, life and reason/truth. not comprehending the following things: what are the properties of material or matter? How are the laws of physics and universal constants determined, and what are the difference from the truth? Why do the changing laws of physics contain unchanging reasons? How is different between fact, realization and reason/truth? What is life different from substance? In detail, how is thought possible in life? what is consciousness and intelligence? what is spirit, soul and mind, and how are they different? what are desire, will and activeness, how do they occur, and how do they work? what is virtue/goodness, beauty and truth, and what is their relationship to each other? why does truth never change, and why does it appear anywhere anytime in the physical world? why do people say that the world of truth is the world of God, that God appears everywhere alive without death, and that life is large and widely alive if it knows a lot of truth? what are the basic attributes and the ultimate state of ethics and morality, and why the life need them? and what are sin and responsibility in willing life?
I realized all of them as a whole without any gaps and contradiction, and I live now only freely and peacefully without any desire, fear, worry, doubt or pride.
OnCharm Lee (Author of the book “Humans & Truth - human life is the awakening process”)
Regardless of subject, my childhood teachers were mediocre. We have to grow out of the circumstances of our birth.
" We have to grow out of the circumstances of our birth". Wonderful words.
@@pharaohakhneton9553 How:..... Don't quote others!...... Understand others to form your thoughts!.....Own your thoughts..... despite any commonality.
Ken Miller asked the question, why religious thinking and scientific thinking unable to go paralell to one another in the same direction? Simple: when religious people admit, that religion is just a hypothesis like any scientific theory, we are golden.
If I may make one minor correction. Technically speaking it should read, "… when religious people admit, that religion is just a" *hypothesis*, "like any scientific theory, we are golden."
Talladega Tom English language being my second language, I accept the correction. Thanks!
or when people in general, religious and not religious, learn what is religion
xeliker is it a theory or a bunch of facts?
is a theory at the beginning then the facts start appearing , then you can make a bunch, if you like, a big bunch of facts
Surely, we must appreciate the globalism that gives us the diversity of and religions and sciences ,and the intellectual particularism that distinguishes them!
Good discussion...I wish more people would show interest in these type of debates...I love both science and 'spirituality', other than psychology I don't know of more important issues.
Do you not love psychology because it is so new and immature or people you know have been harmed by it's child like ignorance? Furthermore do you love the study of consciousness instead?
Does religion and science contradict one another?
Can religion and science coexist?
The collapse (death) of the Ψ-wave Schrödinger function forces physicists to use the mathematical "renormalization method" to revive the situation. . . .
Isn't the "method of renormalization" similar to the "method of reincarnation"? . . .
Mathematicians use the "method of renormalization". . .
Religious believers use the "method of reincarnation". . .
Both believe . . . death is not the end of existence
When I was 4 I asked deep questions. Kids can cope. And learn.
I am learning Philosophy, I am also a 17-year-old Catholic girl who loves her theology class. I find this very incredible and eye-opening, and I relate with Ken so much, if it wasn't for the fact that Jesus was a historical figure and existed and the Bible lasted for this long in so many periods, I do not believe I will have this faith. But I can't see myself saved or fulfill with human-made science and something not above and so greatly impacted on morals and goodness. I'm so glad my professor showed us this and it actually made me feel more faithful and grateful.
tell me indoctrinated girl, who EVER told you Jezus was a historical figure? that has NOWHERE nor EVER been proven. this is the problem when you grow up in extreme religious countries... like your US of A...
@@gregorybaetens8056 give her a break. She is only 17. If she keeps going in the direction she is going, she won't stay long in the doctrine.
am sorry but you are indoctrinated by religion see this playlist that i regularly update
@@eloka4510 exactly and most people don't even know it because religion controls your mind
[What you need to complete your truth]
You need to know exactly the followings: 1) the physical world that we feel as the five senses is finite, incomplete, always changing, temporarily existing, very passive and relative. 2) There certainly is a world of intangible reasons (eg. mathematical and philosophical logics) that transcends these temporary physical worlds, whose properties are diametrically opposed to them and are always right. 3) Life is an intermediate being between these two worlds, whose body interacts with the physical world and spirit interacts with the reason world, while the spirit leads the body, and thus the greater the spirit, the more active and the larger (more spacious and longer) lived.
So you need to fully understand the worlds of material, life and reason/truth. not comprehending the following things: what are the properties of material or matter? How are the laws of physics and universal constants determined, and what are the difference from the truth? Why do the changing laws of physics contain unchanging reasons? How is different between fact, realization and reason/truth? What is life different from substance? In detail, how is thought possible in life? what is consciousness and intelligence? what is spirit, soul and mind, and how are they different? what are desire, will and activeness, how do they occur, and how do they work? what is virtue/goodness, beauty and truth, and what is their relationship to each other? why does truth never change, and why does it appear anywhere anytime in the physical world? why do people say that the world of truth is the world of God, that God appears everywhere alive without death, and that life is large and widely alive if it knows a lot of truth? what are the basic attributes and the ultimate state of ethics and morality, and why the life need them? and what are sin and responsibility in willing life?
I realized all of them as a whole without any gap and contradiction, and I live now only freely and peacefully without any desire, fear, worry, doubt or pride.
OnCharm Lee (Author of the book “Humans & Truth - human life is the awakening process”)
Beautiful.
Religion and Science don't have to battle with each other. If you're having trouble, I might suggest reading Dan Brown's book series. Phenomenal author.
As a Catholic, I will say this:
Both religion and science have been very important to me. Science has ended plagues, saved lives, and it has made our lives all the better. It has explained to us why and how things happen in our surroundings. Yet, humans cannot live fulfilled lives by science alone. Religion is there to remind you of your morals. Religion tells you that things like murder, rape, violence, theft, etc. are wrong.
When there is religion alone in the world, we will all die due to lack of knowledge and education.
Science alone and we will all die due to lack of morality.
Mind you, Atheists are fine to me. You don't necessarily have to worship some God to know that you shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not commit adultery, and so on. We shall respect each others' beliefs and be civil.
Just because you're a believer doesn't mean you have to disregard scientific facts and critical thinking.
"Religion is there to remind you of your morals" now, that's funny
Are we talking religions that say billions of Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists will find themselves as Jews under the Nazis in the afterlife? Set apart because of their beliefs - women, children, babies, babies! pregnant women, old people - ALL dumped into gas chambers in hell?
While the believers cheer!
Even some Nazis had reservations about what they were doing, not scum bucket believers!
Heaven cannot be EARNED, the only way in is to kiss the right butt & luckily for Christians & Muslims, they are! Down on their knees, beg and grovel and the pleased Putin will GIVE them a life of pleasure, ease & comfort! Just like how things get done in Corrupt/Communist countries!
Morality! Hello! Are we this brianwashed?
that laugh at 30:13 creeped me out
It is a Jeff Bezos style laugh
Thoughtful discussion..... Thanks from Bangladesh
The foundation of good is the truth. The foundation of evil is the lie.
Looks like Ken Miller is my man tonight... He said the laws of physics can't stand on their own. Where they came from? Something must be behind them. Then he says it must be god. But why he stops there? If the laws of physics can't exist on their own right, why can god? That's double measure.
Because God isn't a law he makes them.
Sig Ra Fair enough. But then what laws makes his world go around? If he exists, laws must exist in his reality.
***** the law of Love.....If we learn the knowledge of the Love that God have for us, contrary to what we believe in this moment, we will see a different world a better world, not the world of hate fear and separation we see now
xeliker Hate fear and separation has nothing to do with religion or where we came from or what are we doing here. That's politics.
mehamed k sorry mate, no offense, but you don't make much sense...
I have learned in my life that:
I should not argue with the fools. Let them live happily within their frivolous world.
and not have discussion with crude, they have nothing to loose but can spoil my soul.
I better keep distance from jealous folk, they would keep hating me even if I could give them the whole world.
I have learned to prefer being alone rather than sharing time with those I do not belong to
And I always keep in mind three facts:
1-I cannot help everybody.
2-I cannot change every things.
3-I cannot be loved by all.
And If you choose to judge me and judge my life
First wear my shoes and pass the roads that I have gone through.
Weep same as I have wept.
Go through the roads that I have traversed.
Live in those years same as I did
Fall again and again on the rocks that I fell
Then stand up and keep walking through all those hard years again.
If you do so then you may deserve to judge about me and my life and not be silly.
در زندگی یاد گرفتم:
[What you need to understand for your ultimate truth]
You nee to know exactly the followings: 1) the physical world that we feel as the five senses is finite, incomplete, always changing, temporarily existing, very passive and relative, and so secondary or posterior. 2) There certainly is a prior world of intangible reasons (eg. mathematical and philosophical logics) that transcends these temporary physical worlds, whose properties are diametrically opposed to them and are always right to the secondary beings. 3) Life is an intermediate being between these two worlds, whose body interacts with the physical world and spirit interacts with the reason world, while the spirit leads the body, and thus the greater the spirit, the more active and the larger (more spacious and longer) lived.
So you have to fully understand the worlds of material, life and reason/truth. not comprehending the following things: what are the properties of material or matter? How are the laws of physics and universal constants determined, and what are the difference from the truth? Why do the changing laws of physics contain unchanging reasons? How is different between fact, realization and reason/truth? What is life different from substance? In detail, how is thought possible in life? what is consciousness and intelligence? what is spirit, soul and mind, and how are they different? what are desire, will and activeness, how do they occur, and how do they work? what is virtue/goodness, beauty and truth, and what is their relationship to each other? why does truth never change, and why does it appear anywhere anytime in the physical world? why do people say that the world of truth is the world of God, that God appears everywhere alive without death, and that life is large and widely alive if it knows a lot of truth? what are the basic attributes and the ultimate state of ethics and morality, and why the life need them? and what are sin and responsibility in willing life?
I realized all of them as a whole without any gap and contradiction, and I live now only freely and peacefully without any desire, fear, worry, doubt or pride.
OnCharm Lee (Author of the book “Humans & Truth - human life is the awakening process”)
THE TRUTH IS RELIGION IS NOT ABOUT SPIRITUALITY...IT IS POLITICS.
GOD IS THE POSITIVE ENERGY IN YOU ( THE GOODNESS)...AND SEEKING THAT OR INVOKING THAT GOD IS. THE PRAYER OR MEDITATION...!!!
IT IS SCIENCE...OF OUR MIND...!!!
WE ARE A MINI NATURE & UNIVERSE...ESTIMABLE TO SOME EXTEND BY SCIENTIFIC PHILOSOPHY...!!!
The problem is boundaries. If you can separate two sides with a line, geographic, race, national, ideology, etc.. there will be pressure to move the line. Nature's solution is osmosis.
This looks interesting too, I want to watch it when I'm allowed.
ydoyou wannano - Allowed by whom?
@@virvisquevir3320 i think its a rule in her religion idk
Very good and interesting debate. Moderator got on my nerves just a little bit though. Also, I felt like everyone besides the reasonable atheist kept trying to be "funny", which was fine at first, but it ended up becoming distracting. Overall, good video.
I am not religious and I am glad. I was raised Catholic and the only thing I learned was to pray. That is the reason why I came to the Unites States .
The connection to Be made is with science & music! Soon populations Grooving as One will show scientific/cultural results!
I recommend you check out Aphex Twin, Collapse on TH-cam, o grooving one! Peace and tunes to all here🙂
"Put all your beliefs into harmony with science; there can be no opposition, for truth is one." ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i Faith
Actually is the opposite, put all your science in harmony with faith, ....science is looking for the how of things, faith is looking for why...faith is more comprehensive.
@@jair2454 "Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with Science is mere tradition..." ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i Faith
@@francismausley7239 "one wing is not enough"...not true. Just think, there are many people that got to know God and it was enough, they did not need science because they lived many years ago: Job, Abraham, Moses, etc...not to mention many folk not famous.
@@jair2454 and @Francis Mausley, Jair is correct here. Think of compartmentalized truths. Think of them as concentric rings of truth collapsing into the most fundamental, concentrated truth. You would have -- on the outter rings -- categories like, "mathematics", with the innermost ring being, "theology". -- For those who are not yet ready to understand the limits of mathematics, see "Kurt Godel". The innermost ring -- theology -- collapses all others (with "philosophy" being the penultimate ring). It is written, "...I thank Thee, Father...because You hid these truths from the educated and intelligent, and revealed them to babes...". Science is imperative only for those who are decieved by modernity. Presuppositions -- by definition-- skip past your foundational, worldview. That is, do you realize that your very existence presupposes God? Science alone declares that the computer-like code of your DNA requires "a mind" to design it. The laws of probability don't permit you to exist by chance.
love watching the micro expressions on the panel in reaction to others comments
Me Too! Says More Than They're Words do!
Everyone is gonna be ok ...
"and Every little thing gonna be alright..."
Focus on the positive and the desired ...
Being Supernatural ✨ is living &🧘perceiving above the observable 🌎world. It's really experiencing the 👁️Inner World & thus knowing the Self
I've come to see a great % of Atheists that are members of an Atheist Group that meets and discusses their perspectives, and their rights, and often are very emotional on their being an Atheist, and so on...
My point is, these folks have basically done a bit of making a Religion out of being Atheist.
A subject that would be good for a Sociologist to study and clarify.
Religion being a Social Practice, Spiritual being the more individual's practice.
Not judging, just noting.
You can use that word for any commitment, don't you think?
A person religiously attends to his sport, football is a religion to x, someone religiously attends to classes etc etc
On the other hand, we can say Christians and Muslims are Atheists when it comes to other religions Gods. As Atheists say, "you guys don't believe in other religions Gods, we believe in one less, that's all"
Or how about Democracy and Communism - both are forms of govt, right? Therefore they are equal?
Cheap wordplay doesn't get us anywhere
Nice one :)
The theist argument (or attempt at coming up with one) that atheist have a 'belief' - just like them - is logically and fundamentally wrong... and in my opinion seems likely motivated by a desire to feel better or even less 'guilty' about ones own belief? :P Believing something in spite of better of 'evidence' or lacking any... and sticking to that belief - no matter what!... Is fundamentally different from adjusting your beliefs (called 'hypothesis' in the science tongue) as you go along... as you discover new things. There is no arguing this.
Atheism is the position that there's no god. How does someone conclude to this decision? It was through faith.
The only constant in the universe is change.
Everytime I think I've nailed it, new information comes along that modifies, adjusts, flips, or obliterates it.
The majority of what I think and believe comes from what other people think and believe.
Almost everything I know comes from other.
I have to trust that or not trust that. Trusting in that info is having faith in something I have not directly experienced.
There are some things I have experienced that most people have not experienced.
How do I explain those experiences to myself? All I have to draw upon is what I know from the experience of others.
I think the final most honest answer to all questions has to be... I don't know the answer.
Based on that, it's important for me to keep an open mind to everything I encounter.
People get stuck in their ego.
I am right and if you don't agree with me you are wrong.
It's possible we are both right but unaware of the aspect that makes that so. That unawareness is ignorance. I am ignorant.
Every single human alive is ignorant.
The most intelligent human is ignorant.
It's impossible to know everything.
Keep an open mind.
Almost anything is possible.
Even when it's highly unlikely.
Learn from yesterday, and heal from bitterness and tramas
If 'ANY' theists had anything demonstrable to show, this would never be a conversation. But when you don't have faith in your faith, you have to fight what is real to feel good about yourself.
But the funny part is when atheists are poking in on your spiritual/religious space for God knows what reason , one tends to get irritated. And that irritation might manifest is various different forms. But that's just the law of karma . What goes around comes around.
@@user-ut6ob5yo4q Measure you mete if talking God.
Atheists don’t lie to me. Theists have no alternative. I don’t live with such poor values.
Art requires the element of creativity and inspiration ☺️ so does science 😜
There is plenty of creativity and inspiration in science without religion-why-ever would you ‘believe’ otherwise? Because of your religion?
Diverse (cultural) perspectives help scientific creativity and intuition. The initial conditions of a coming scientist career aren't mainly set by theories, instruments and formulas. But curiosity, imagination, questions, stories, admiration, metaphysics, humour, mystery, beauty, will, purpose, feelings, dialogue, perception of self and life, ambitions, beliefs & doubts, intuitions...
The scientific method took shape in the renaissance with the rediscovery of ancient knowledge, neglegting rediscovering (often forbidden) ancient beliefs. A long (and still persisting) confrontation between the power of reason and the power of the clergy began. Antagonizing 'to believe' and 'to know' in a quasi-religious way. This confrontational heritage and mindset is limiting the degrees of creative freedom of modern scientific culture.
Beliefs always played a crucial role for the direction science takes. Many discoveries are grounded in beliefs, pre-dispositions and intuitions dating back as far as 5'000'000 years or more, while others are born in questioning them - like the 'concept of time'.
Few things determine a scientist's biography as strongly, as the 'axioms' for life and for work they adopted, found, claim, celebrate or want to adhere to. Kurt Gödel for example devoted a large part of his life to a proof of God or the Divine.
In modern societies the danger of falling back into obscurantism is largely under control, so science communication can afford to speak more openly about "the behind the scenes", about the non-provable: ancient and tribal culture, metaphysics, Gods, mythology, philosophical considerations and intuitions. Always in respect for different beliefs and opinions, of course.
The worlds of 'to know' and 'to believe' - somehow meet as one in a human being, yet they are so different. The first has expanded into a gigantic world of knowledge and accelerates its expansion, while the second often prefers to remain private, is much more static and strongly dominated by tradition. Making those two different worlds communicate can benefit both greatly.
Most science do not requires creativity. Kant do not consider Newton a genius because everything he did could be taught and he is logically right about that.
The idea of Gravity came from Harley that HIRED Newton do wrote the formula because he was good in math. Harley was a bigger genius than Newton because the CONCEPT came from THAT BRAIN, not Newton.
The formula e=MC2 is not from Einstein. There's nothing genius about the formula, its just math. What is genius about Einstein is The Big Picture he saw, the Space/time itself and the fact he was the fist to understand what the math was showing. So its what to imagine with math that makes you go beyond and NOT the math itself.
Is Hubble a genius for doing a measurement? who got the idea of that telescope in the first place? I do know it was not Hubble...
@@AthosRac I strongly disagree. All science requires creativity. Depending on the specific field somebody works on, mathematics, medicine and history for example usually require a lot of creativity.
@@DarkSkay nupuqi om-re khonectics answers all religious questions
Very interesting
I think religion is all human creation. As Descartes stated, “I think, therefor I am.” We, human beings, are capable of two kinds of reasonings: Deductive and inductive.
Science is all about deductive reasoning. Over centuries, we have accumulated huge amounts of knowledge, but the more we know, the more we need to know. Then inductive reasoning comes into play - people start to have imaginations about the things we are unable to explain. This is how religion is created.
As we are free beings, different groups tend to have different religions. But all religions serve the same fundamental human need - the desire to understand, along with the ideas of good, virtue, meaning of life, etc. compared to bad, evil, sins, etc.
Human beings, through biological evolution over millions of years, are able to have these two distinctive ways of reasoning, this is how we define who we are.
Put this in the cosmic context, human beings are creation of the Earth, most likely by chance, just like a small particle jumping around in a quantum universe or multiverse, with different dimensions.
Beautifully said.
Ken Miller is very cool.
"Both science and religion bow to humble and humility."
how does that make him cool? you have a chemist who makes a bomb straps it to themselves and blows it up killing loads of people in the name of God so is that cool? because that is science and religion hand in hand.
Ethan McCormack True religion is to take cake of the widows and the orphans. Not sure how throwing bombs to people has to do with science and religion being hand in hand?
Guy: "The benefit of the 20th century Physics has been...to remove some of the arrogance from the 19th century physicists"
Nice study
thats funny how the second panelist said that after he stopped believing in god he got over a fear of being watching. i get that feeling totally. like when my boss is always looking over my shoulder. now imagine how you'd feel if god actually came down and threw down swift justice on us all all the time. imagine how crippled in fear you would be then...even if you are innocent! seems like god not showing himself in our lives is a blessing
As (almost) everyone knows, religion, especially organized religion, does not equate to spirituality, and vice versa. It’s not always clear which of the two is being discussed here, with the risk of creating confusion in some minds. Also, before we even have a theory of quantum gravity or some equivalent of it, current “quantum cosmology” is suggesting that the very terms, the very concepts in which we are asking our questions and thinking of them might be far too simplistic. Reality, which Einstein once referred to as an onion with an infinite number of layers towards an infinitely deep core, seems to cut through all our concepts. An example is wave vs. particle (it’s both at the same time), where each and every electron e.g. can correctly be understood as being spread out across the whole Universe - some have even worded this as the single electron Universe. Quantum entanglement hs cut through the here vs. there assumption, showing that “locality” (here vs. there) is in fact just an illusion. Just as the idea of “now” is an illusion, except for what happens in our mind - and even that, neuroscientists have now realized is wrong, as we become conscious of our own decisions ‘some time after’ our brain has already made them without us being aware of it. Just like ever seeing the sun only as it was 8 minutes ago or that old friend of yours across the street as he or she was a fraction of a second ago, but never exactly “now”. It seems that all our concepts, the mental tools with which we think and reason about the world, are gross simplifications that help us survive in our biological surroundings but were not evolved to help us “see” reality, whatever it is. That’s why we need sophisticated instruments and mathematics to help us peer deeper into things than either our senses or our biological brain can ever manage. But then, how come we feel that urge to go beyond what helps us thrive and survive in our wild jungle of an earth (because of humans…)
Being able to tell poetry from prose is the essential skill needed to compare religion and science. Religion and science operate on entirely different planes, the spiritual and the mundane, respectively.
There is, therefore, no way the two can possibly conflict except through a misunderstanding of their roles. It is a monumental tragedy for religion, and the very religious impulse itself, that religious "mythology" ("truths", stories, legends) which clearly resonate with deep processes in the human mind (brain), and are fundamentally poetic in nature, should be misconstrued as operating on the same mundane prose plane as science.
Religion is robbed of its mystery, magic, and power - of its very intended function (transcendence) - in this way.
Great point
How about Science is all about facts & religion is all about belief with zero evidence but believers blindly cling on to it because of the payoff - an eternal life of pleasure & ease - that's what they are really after
@@ramaraksha01 You are seriously under-informed about religion, and your repetition of blind fundamentalist myths about religion shows a sore need for education.
@@topologyrob Again & again just personal attacks
Tell me where I am wrong in my observations - discuss the issue instead of cheap personal attacks
But this is how you operate right? Anyone who questions your delusions is a heretic and must be burnt to death!
How many innocents have you mass murdered in this way?
We see the same thing today in Muslim lands - anyone who "insults" their religion is tortured and killed! That is the company you keep
Do you not condemn non-Christians to hell for not believing as you do?
Do you not view God as your ticket to an eternal life of pleasure & ease?
I keep asking what does one DO in Heaven?
What work? Can you describe a DAY in Heaven?
Zero answers & nothing more but personal attacks
@@topologyrob Think of Madoff and his sweet promises, of course, with zero evidence
Remind you of someone?
Where is the evidence?
Why is God acting like Putin - vote for me, support me & I will reward you with Heaven? huh?
And what do you DO in Heaven?
Is Heaven one vast Retirement Home?
Billions spending eternity in a lazy, idle, useless & pointless existence for eternity?
And this is the Grand Plan of God?
What?
2 Atheists knocked on my door.
They didn't want anything.
IF WE UNDERSTAND OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILY THEN WE WILL UNDERSTAND OTHERS , NATURE & OUR UNIVERSE...THROUGH SCIENTIFIC SPIRITUAL INTUITION...!!!
TIME is the undeniable decision maker. With time, Science will always continue to further our understanding and ability to interact with this life as more facts are proven irrefutable repeatable airtight truths. Religion is frozen and can only be reinterpreted and eventually wholly lost in translation with time.
I would only hope
Well said Marcus!
What do you mean? All scientific 'truths' are provisional, that is their nature. New observations can always be made that could render current theories inadequate, or downright incorrect. Religious/Philosophical truths are not provisional, they are absolute and timeless. This is the nature of the ontological/epistemological implications and commitments of the different methodologies between science & more rigorous forms of knowledge acquisition.
Poorly written, and in each sentence wrong. Time doesn't decide, science has limits, and theology evolves.
@@christiaanvandermerwe8562 Is it that hard to figure out that Christianity & Islam are Master/Slave religions? Primitive people living under Kings/Dictators used them as a template? Such men - think Putin, Saddam - demanded obedience & loyalty(belief) and rewarded(heaven) & Punished(Hell) accordingly!
Simple, primitive ideas that belong in the past being blindly followed by the best of minds of the 21st century! Just amazing!
saying 'supernatural' is like saying "dark matter" we dont know, its just a name to describe something. reading too hard into it, being too literal.
science IS literal
without DEFINITIONS and or specific examples there is a great deal of room for misunderstanding between arguments.
I believe in freedom of religion. This means it doesn't matter if or what belief one has. What matters is what you do.
Does religion and science contradict one another?
Can religion and science coexist?
The collapse (death) of the Ψ-wave Schrödinger function forces physicists to use the mathematical "renormalization method" to revive the situation. . . .
Isn't the "method of renormalization" similar to the "method of reincarnation"? . . .
Mathematicians use the "method of renormalization". . .
Religious believers use the "method of reincarnation". . .
Both believe . . . death is not the end of existence
Easily one of the worst moderators for anything that I have ever seen. I guess it's difficult to serious, intelligent people to take part in a panel on religion during a science festival. I am surprised Lawrence showed up, though he made it pretty clear that he showed up out of spite.
1:08:42 - 55 to all the religious ppl listen carefully.
to sandwich Faith in-between Science and Religion is quite telling
As independent observers, not part of any cause or effect, we need a designer's 'program',like 'genome', to understand evolution. A program that is universal, like Hegel's dialectics -!
49:40 Great comment and unfortunately true. Naive idealism.
not true because religion cannot be argued because its core subject is by definition perfect and unmistaken and there is no objective method to disprove it. Fasism and communism ended because it was oibjectively proven it did not work, but to do that with religion you need a death certificate. Stalin was evil but he did not want to kill himself or blow the whole Earth but if you beleive your God will give you virgins in the afterlife if you do that then you will do it. and you cannot persuade this person to cancel his plans because of the nature of religion.
We lifes are not predestined by "big bang". We lifes are agents that determine the undetermined sequentially.
In the history, there have been a lot of proclaimed believer philosophers, artists and scientists to cite some : Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Emmanuel Kant, Albert Einstein and even Charles Darwin...
An important remark on evolution : Chromosomes do not evolve but the associated genes do...
Science, faith and religion all are evolving. Evolution / change is the only constant thing to happen.
Also - the guy on the our left reminds me of me - just before I became an agnostic (and later an atheist). Interprets the Bible as a series of metaphors and clings to his belief only due to the historicity of a character named Jesus. He simultaneously recognizes the lack of evidence yet holds a fallacious standard as his reason to continue believing. It's extremely likely that a person named Jesus existed - but that's not a reason to believe that he was the son of God.
CHRISTIANITY IS A CRIMINAL RELIGIOUS POLITICAL INSTITUTION...STARTED WITH MURDER OF A REFORMER & SCHOLAR, NAMED JESUS...!!!
The story of evolution is based entirely upon imagination and is extremely anti-science. No science exists that favors the possibility that evolution has ever occurred.
It doesn't have to be Jesus, right? It could be any person from the past - in fact what happened to Giordano Bruno happened to Jesus - the majority did not like what this person was saying, so they burnt him to death, whereas the Romans used a different method!
Imagine that - shows our morals are subjective, shows what happens when a minority becomes the Majority - they behave EXACTLY like the majority
Christians were minorities under the Romans - their leader was killed
Later they became the majority and have done a whole lot of killing!
Still goes on in Muslim countries - don't you dare say anything against their God
Christians of course freely use threats of hell if you don't agree with them
Amazing that these totalitarian religions represent us today in the 21st century
@@tresajessygeorge210 And then the minority became the majority and started their own killings - people like Giordano Bruno - the same story - guy starts talking about ideas that the majority do not like and the majority gangs up and murders the guy in cold blood
Morals are clearly subjective, not objective
@@ramaraksha01 - What you said makes no sense. The Holy Scriptures as found in the Bible (not in the modern corrupted revisions but found pure in the A..V./KJV) is the most accurate record of ancient history on earth, which has been shown over and over by the evidence. No fact in history is more proven than the life and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Modern observable scientific facts prove that the world is around 6,000 years old and that the global flood of Noah's day formed the geological features of the earth.ii Professors have spent billions of dollars trying to find a scientific reason to believe that everything created itself but every attempt has proven the story of 'evolution' to be utter nonsense. This is why the scientists are forming creation science organizations to teach the public. Fools, however will never accept the truth.
Quantum physics is coherent entanglement until measurement decohere.
As a cultural person i hate the fact our parents force us to church as children soon as we turn 18 we rebel, most cultural people I know went through this as a kid are hardened criminals now, TO ALL PARENTS STOP FORCE FEEDING YOUR CHILDREN SOMETHING THAT IS FALSE AND BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY LIKE TO DO
Faith is the opposite of evidence, is the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail, it is making a virtue out of not thinking. The entire point of faith, is that it does not depend on rational justification, while the rest of us are expected to defend our prejudices. It is an attitude or feeling whereby someone attributes a higher degree of probability to the evidence than what the evidence calls for. It is possible to have a spiritual connection to the universe without any of the many, many gods. I apologise if any of this comes across as harsh or disrespectful, it is absolutely not my intention to upset anybody. Sending peace and love, regardless of anybody's religion or beliefs.
1:03:10
As some who believes in an infinite amount of realities, this guy's monologue resonates with me completely. I believe in science, 100%, but there are things that human scientists will never be able to explain but that doesn't make those things not real, whatever the physists want you to believe.
Yet
This was very interesting; I thank all the panelists and our moderator as well. Many valuable points were brought out. It was much better than the other world science program on science and religion, staffed totally by atheists who had no constructive information or understanding of religion!
In order to stimulate people and sell books a lot, the author sometimes gives a very exaggerated title of the book, but the publisher further encourages it. The titles of many bestsellers have been very exaggerated.
Fucking troll
2:01-2:10 best statement ever
stopped watching due to the moderator. I can't take it any more!
Yeah the moderator sounds sooo thrilled to be there... condescending af, not very appealing.
The Jesuit guy's cool
I like him too.
The Jesuits get a hard rap from those whom don't like the Vatican.
Pope Francis is supposed to be a Jesuit, I really like Pope Francis
He tells the truth and the Vatican PR guys run behind him and say: "you misunderstood his intended meaning".
Cracks me up! My money is on the Pope!
I'm a little biased, I was Catholic most of my life.
Enlightening & interesting.
Namaste 🙏
Let us have Sam Harris , Deepak Chopra and Rajiv Malhotra. That would be great.
Nothing is dangerous except the misuse and abuse of practice.
That moderator is irritating!
How does topic affect to a human growth toward there's subject
Ken Miller citing Einstein: "Either nothing is a miracle or everything is a miracle." That has nothing to do with walking on water, multiplying bread and fish, turning water into wine, making alive dead people besides the metaphorical sense. I think Einstein's miracles are close to the socratic "I know that I don't know" which is also the basis of Karl Poppers philosophy. That does not mean, that we can make some kind of progress in science. This kind of thinking is the basis of science. Believing that Jesus walked on water etc. is based on desperation about the human condition, the feeling of helplessness in the face of brutality.
This moderator is an OAF. Why is he arguing with the guests?!!? Totally agree that religion / god is dangerous. It's been proved over and over and over and over! EDIT: To say, I didn't expect to appreciate the priests rebuttal so much, but I have to say it was a very measured and thoughtful response. Oh man, careful Lawerence, yr about to get punched. lolol 1:09:00 Ah... and now I see that the moderator has a religious bias, which is explains why he has been so combative.
"i dont care to diss religion" **disses religion**
TheMoon that’s fine but when judgment comes, itill be to late
@@conspiracynews1036 fake news
x^x -> 1 as x -> 0 can be proved mathematically, which could be interpreted as it insists that something comes out of nothing by exponantiating nothing with itself.
X raised to the X is infinity.
Your restriction of X raised to the X minus all that is greater than 1 is retarded.
It only leaves 0 and less as an answer.
Wow to the moderator, shame to the science festival. Amazed I am.
I gave up on this debate at around the hour mark, I just can't get my head around religious apologists.
***** Loki is not a God you dipshit. Never was, never will be.
ForOdinAndAsgard In Norse Mythology
Beginning
In the beginning, Loki was merely a personification of fire and the
hearth. As the stories went on, he became a devil. Sources indicated
that Loki was originally a demon, or a Jotunn, since he born to two
giants. Loki, as a result of sharing blood with Odin, became an Aesir,
making him Odin's brother. In contrast with popular movies, Loki is
actually Thor's step-uncle, not his brother.
RzzRBladez
You do not need to explain to me that Loki is Jötnar.
ForOdinAndAsgard
And became Aesir. A God of Asgard.
RzzRBladez
The Edda's don't say that. They only say he lives among them. Nowhere in scripture is it said that he became Aesir. It is kinda difficult to change race. You should read less comic books and more real scripture.
we are gods to our self...and no one above
Oh yeah and who created you and who created the earth?
Great discussion! I have almost cried. Brilliant speakers! I am still looking for the answer! 10/10. I just have subsribed.
over the course of 5 years im wondering have you found an answer?
and have you seen an other then this one if you thought this was great? tell me, what exactly was great? the heavily biased and interrupting moderator? or the unresolved unscientific 'debate'? the only people who could EVER find this a good debate, are religious people or people that just don't know...
1.31 "The expending universe we have discovered in the 20st century" yes except there is a new SCIENTIFIC theory that came up saying the universe is not expending it is finite and maybe flat. Extension was added to the theory about the universe to solve some calculation of the equation of relativity bringing the wrong results. Most astrophysics research are based on computer model if they don't work some extra data are introduced or the parameters are changed.
Thank you, moderator. Overwhelming arguments came from the atheists
They really didn't
i was questioning existence god and death from the age of four, wish my parents had been more like the Jesuit and less like Kraus
You want to stay deluded.... take the red pill?
Some things to point out:
- I would argue that there are small percentage of scientists who are also religious. In the real representation I guess there would be 3.5 atheist scientists and 0.5 religious scientists on the panel.
- panelists clearly have a different perceptions of what religion means to them. They should first discuss what they think it is.
- The problem of discussing religion is that it is so vague, loosely defined, abstract, individualised, humanised and there are so many (with conflicting ideas). It deals with stories and anecdotes. It is more of a social construct than a description of reality science is trying to unravel.
- I am wondering what kind of associations one would find if we would plot intelligence and religious beliefs of people.
- I think most atheists were believers at some point in their life (e.g. in childhood) but the desire for knowledge, logic and critical thinking overcame this innate human tendency. Because explaining things takes a lot of cognitive effort, we like to stop at some point and take the easy explanation to quickly get to the dose of gratification it provides.
I don’t believe in god and I am glad. I am an Atheist and I don’t have any high degree, no Masters or PHD..... but I am Intelligent and I like to THINK. I like evidence and I believe that we humans are just another species. What we need is a lesson on Humility
what a completely useless discussion. science has NO need for the religious, spiritual or woowoo witchcraft.
@Rod Loucks valid point. I was just really venting my personal frustration 😛 but I do agree that this type of discourse could influence one on the precipice of disbelief to self reflect.
@Rod Loucks aw yeah nothing more infuriating then someone in a position of influence to be guided by their religiosity. aaarrrrgh.
@Rod Loucks haha. Dover is just so satisfying. peace ✌🏽
Another bloke clueless about religion I see...
And who is this God person anyway :-D HGTTG
1:04:00 powerful
GREETINGS TO THE GREAT MINDS...from a curious mind...about GOD , RELIGION, FAITH AND SCIENCE.
My views & points if YOU may consider...!!!
1) Believing in some power higher than what we could see, and prove is not the problem we HUMANS face.
USING AND ABUSING that belief to ENFORCE a particular doctrine to control , corrupt , exploit and torture is the GREATEST PROBLEM we the humans faced in the past , present and who knows , may be in the future too.
2 ) IT is called RELIGION.
ITS enforcement is through RELIGIOUS POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS.
3 ) TO believe in GOD, we do not require an INSTITUTION & LAWS . No need of any policies & protocols.
4 ) We require an institution, laws , policies& protocols :
IF our BELIEF & RITUALS are POLLUTING our mind , body, environment, and our nature& universe.
I mean using sadism , cruelty, sacrificial and torturous rituals ;
IF we use black magic ;
IF we use BRAIN WASH ;
IF WE USE DIRECT OR INDIRECT FORCE TO CONVERT OTHERS ;
5 ) So GOD is NOT the problem...!!!
THE SELFISH HUMANS AND THEIR SELFISH INSTITUTIONS ARE THE PROBLEM...!!!
6 ) GOD IS THE GOODNESS in YOU and ME in Everything and Every one ...!!!
7) IT CANNOT BE PROVED WITH OUR EXTERNAL SENSES...!!!
SINCE IT HAS NO FACE OR FORM...!!! BUT YOU... MAY GIVE... A BEAUTIFUL LOVING IMAGE...JUST TO HAVE A FOCAL POINT BUT NOT TO WORSHIP...IT COULD BE ANYTHING & ANYONE THAT GIVES YOU PEACE & HAPPINESS ; and COMFORT & CONFIDENCE...TO CONTINUE LIVING WITH. the DIFFICULTIES AND PROBLEMS IN YOUR LIFE...!!!
8) IT COULD BRING OUT THE BEST IN YOU...!!!
I call that the SPIRITUAL SCIENCE...!!!
9) YOU could be an Ethiest, you could be a believer in Yahweh, Allah, Bhagawan, Narayanan, Eashwaran, Daiwam ,or in Matha--pitha--Guru...!!!
ALL that are to give or obtain some extra ENERGY for living a quality life...!!!
QUALITY through HUMANLY POSSIBLE GOODNESS...!!!
NOT PERFECTNESS BUT TOWARDS PERFECTING...that is why some say... life long learning.
10 ) NATURE & UNIVERSE IS NOT PERFECT BUT ALWAYS TRYING TO MAINTAIN EQUILIBRIUM...!!!
AND THAT IS SCIENCE & SPIRITUALITY...!!!
THAT help us to EXIST SOCIALLY & HARMONIOUSLY in this IMPERFECT WORLD...!!!
NO RELIGION COULD GIVE THAT...IF IT IS FORCED ON YOU...!!!
THANK YOU TO ALL .
WITH RESPECT TO YOUR INTELLECTUAL PURSUITS...!!!