The Book of Timothy gives specific qualifications for church elders so that infers that there does need to be some sort of leadership of the congregational body. Not everyone in the congregation is spiritually mature enough to leads others. Most members of congregations don't even read their bibles, so how could they know the Will of God? You can't know His Will without knowing His Word! As Christians in the Western World, it is important that we don't make the Bible and the church democratic similar to our secular government. If we do, we are at risk for deciding our own truths, deciding what constitutes sin, and causing added social division among the brethren.
Before accepting this, look at all the scriptures about elders in the NT (Acts 20:28-31; Titus 1:5-9; 1 Pet 5:1-4). "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you" (Heb 13:17 ESV).
I am concerned by the continued use of Elder Ruled. There is a difference between elder ruled and elder led. That may be a distinction without a difference in his talk, but the use of ruled without discussion of led, slanted my opinion of his position.
Good talk; very helpful. One question: should women and children be given a vote in matters that come before the church? Paul says women should not exercise authority over men and that they are to remain silent. Further, women are to submit to their husbands. Further, women are not to ask questions, except to their own husband. Would love to hear some pastoral wisdom on how to integrate these principles into a Congregational polity.
The Book of Timothy gives specific qualifications for church elders so that infers that there does need to be some sort of leadership of the congregational body. Not everyone in the congregation is spiritually mature enough to leads others. Most members of congregations don't even read their bibles, so how could they know the Will of God? You can't know His Will without knowing His Word! As Christians in the Western World, it is important that we don't make the Bible and the church democratic similar to our secular government. If we do, we are at risk for deciding our own truths, deciding what constitutes sin, and causing added social division among the brethren. Women are different but equal. Women often played pivotal roles in Jewish Society, and the pages of Jewish history are full of heroic matriarchs such as Rachel, Sarah, Leah, and Rebecca. Miriam worked with her brothers Moses and Aaron, to lead the exodus from Egypt. Women in Jesus time were considered equal to men, though separated in their worldly responsibilities. They were allowed to choose their marriage partner, enter into contracts, buy and sell property, and speak at weddings. It was forbidden for men to beat or mistreat women, and in the case of rape, it was understood that such an act occurred against the woman's Will and that the man was presumed guilty. In fact, women were treated better in the time of Jesus than they are in great many places in the modern world. Also, women should not be treated unfairly in the Body of Christ. A woman is ONLY submitted to her OWN husband-NOT every man on earth. Women may also be ministers of the Gospel, and hold leadership positions in the church . edifythebody.org/curriculums/
The Holy Spirit guides a true believer through Santification not religious hierarchy. Leaders and teachers are never once told to Lord over anyone. Their example, not their "rules" or "vision" are what we are to submit to and ONLY if that aligns with God's Holy Word. 9Marks misses the mark and is borderline heresy. Repent!
In this exact talk, Dever says clearly that church members should not have the attitude of just doing whatever the elders say, but should know it for themselves from the Bible, and then together as a church have the final authority in matters of doctrine, membership, and like issues. He is AGAINST elder rule. Maybe listen carefully to the video before calling them to repentance.
The Book of Timothy gives specific qualifications for church elders so that infers that there does need to be some sort of leadership of the congregational body. Not everyone in the congregation is spiritually mature enough to leads others. Most members of congregations don't even read their bibles, so how could they know the Will of God? You can't know His Will without knowing His Word! As Christians in the Western World, it is important that we don't make the Bible and the church democratic similar to our secular government. If we do, we are at risk for deciding our own truths, deciding what constitutes sin, and causing added social division among the brethren.
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I am in seminary and taking a class on polity. This talk has been incredibly helpful. I have watched it 3 or 4 times.
The Book of Timothy gives specific qualifications for church elders so that infers that there does need to be some sort of leadership of the congregational body. Not everyone in the congregation is spiritually mature enough to leads others. Most members of congregations don't even read their bibles, so how could they know the Will of God? You can't know His Will without knowing His Word! As Christians in the Western World, it is important that we don't make the Bible and the church democratic similar to our secular government. If we do, we are at risk for deciding our own truths, deciding what constitutes sin, and causing added social division among the brethren.
This is so so needed in so many churches
Before accepting this, look at all the scriptures about elders in the NT (Acts 20:28-31; Titus 1:5-9; 1 Pet 5:1-4).
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you" (Heb 13:17 ESV).
I am concerned by the continued use of Elder Ruled. There is a difference between elder ruled and elder led. That may be a distinction without a difference in his talk, but the use of ruled without discussion of led, slanted my opinion of his position.
Good talk; very helpful. One question: should women and children be given a vote in matters that come before the church? Paul says women should not exercise authority over men and that they are to remain silent. Further, women are to submit to their husbands. Further, women are not to ask questions, except to their own husband. Would love to hear some pastoral wisdom on how to integrate these principles into a Congregational polity.
The Book of Timothy gives specific qualifications for church elders so that infers that there does need to be some sort of leadership of the congregational body. Not everyone in the congregation is spiritually mature enough to leads others. Most members of congregations don't even read their bibles, so how could they know the Will of God? You can't know His Will without knowing His Word! As Christians in the Western World, it is important that we don't make the Bible and the church democratic similar to our secular government. If we do, we are at risk for deciding our own truths, deciding what constitutes sin, and causing added social division among the brethren.
Women are different but equal. Women often played pivotal roles in Jewish Society, and the pages of Jewish history are full of heroic matriarchs such as Rachel, Sarah, Leah, and Rebecca. Miriam worked with her brothers Moses and Aaron, to lead the exodus from Egypt. Women in Jesus time were considered equal to men, though separated in their worldly responsibilities. They were allowed to choose their marriage partner, enter into contracts, buy and sell property, and speak at weddings. It was forbidden for men to beat or mistreat women, and in the case of rape, it was understood that such an act occurred against the woman's Will and that the man was presumed guilty. In fact, women were treated better in the time of Jesus than they are in great many places in the modern world. Also, women should not be treated unfairly in the Body of Christ. A woman is ONLY submitted to her OWN husband-NOT every man on earth. Women may also be ministers of the Gospel, and hold leadership positions in the church .
edifythebody.org/curriculums/
The Holy Spirit guides a true believer through Santification not religious hierarchy. Leaders and teachers are never once told to Lord over anyone. Their example, not their "rules" or "vision" are what we are to submit to and ONLY if that aligns with God's Holy Word. 9Marks misses the mark and is borderline heresy. Repent!
In this exact talk, Dever says clearly that church members should not have the attitude of just doing whatever the elders say, but should know it for themselves from the Bible, and then together as a church have the final authority in matters of doctrine, membership, and like issues. He is AGAINST elder rule. Maybe listen carefully to the video before calling them to repentance.
@@mwr123456789 and that is why one must sign their extra biblical covenant?? Double speak....
And in their by laws it states they, as the elders, have the final authority on the interpretation of scripture??
9 marks of a controlling church.
The Book of Timothy gives specific qualifications for church elders so that infers that there does need to be some sort of leadership of the congregational body. Not everyone in the congregation is spiritually mature enough to leads others. Most members of congregations don't even read their bibles, so how could they know the Will of God? You can't know His Will without knowing His Word! As Christians in the Western World, it is important that we don't make the Bible and the church democratic similar to our secular government. If we do, we are at risk for deciding our own truths, deciding what constitutes sin, and causing added social division among the brethren.