Tesla has NOT been plagued with quality control issues on the interior. The interior on these cars is beautiful. Everyone who has one loves the interior. Where does this shit come from?
@@Menga213 considering hydrogen is nearly 10x the price of regular electricity, I'm surprise it's only $90 to be honest. Hydrogen could work if it becomes a hell of a lot more efficient but the MAJOR show stopper is the tens of billions required to build the infrastructure. When the plants cost a couple hundred million each then you need to build out the pipelines or delivery to the stations etc. which also cost a couple million each... It makes the whole thing basically a non-starter. Might work fine for long haul trucks but having the infrastructure in place for every day cars will take at least 20-30 years.
@Alex McAuliff And let's not forget the multi layer air filtration system. It's basically big multistage HEPA filter with filtration of particulate N99 level and gases of a level at least A1B1E1K1.
LOL yea try use that BEV in a war zone or a 3ed world country or after a natural catastrophe. yea yea YOU might be wrapped up in bubble wrap and may never need to and power to you. but in the real world this will be a requirement. just like we have petrol and diesel cars in the future we will have BEV for coffee sipping city dwellers and FCEV for military industrial and rugged vehicles. Ow your deploying a mission to the middle of no where NP we can air drop a tank of hydrogen where you need it we will let the stupids take gun fire while there vehicles "fast charge". Ow your a airliner ok well here is a method to fuel your aircraft that is much lighter then battery and has more energy density meaning longer range of flight. Ow you have a shipping container and need to turn that big boy around stat cos time is money NP allow us to quickly fill you up without the need of heavy battery and the need to pack a SHIPPING container full of them. just to give a few examples.
I agree. And remember too. Back then, printed magazines could survive on subscribers + ad revenue, but today, not so much. The disconnect is why we end up here on Sam's channel; it's viewer supported. Keep up the great work Sam!
@@noahabrams9909 I don't think it's a policy per se, I think they just don't need to advertise since they sell every car they can build without paying for advertising! They build new factories with the money they save.
@@ytechnology Haha! Every Mirai ad/article will eventually be 10 for Tesla, soon as Mirai owners' reviews get out. An eco-woke co-worker got one of the early Honda Hydrogen cars & just couldn't admit how much he regretted it.
@@hillmans69 I think it started like you say where Elon probably realized that word of mouth is the best advertising, but I voted on weather to advertise a few months ago as a shareholder so I think it is a policy of sorts.
Please Sam! I think many of us outside the US will really appreciate if you're able to provide metric values together with imperial. And thanks for your video!
oh please dude you just sound ignorant. We all can agree that when gas cars over the decades have been successful but back when they were first produced we had naysayers saying gas cars are crap and there aren't any highways to drive them on well now that all the highways have been constructed it became the most popular mode of transportation so what's not to say that that can happen to hydrogen cars once they expand their hydrogen fueling stations just like how highways were constructed to accomodate gas cars? If someone invented the best alternative renewable fuel source that was clean it would always have the infancy problem of starting up and gaining traction which can be said about any new car fuel, scant fueling stations doesn't invalidate the science on the new, best alternative renewable fuel
Just read article about them going all in on electric www.torquenews.com/6626/look-out-tesla-toyota-s-shocking-announcement-shows-they-are-all-electrified-vehicles 😂😂😂
@@matthewboyd8689 And in "going all in" meaning they will build a few thousand vehicles and maybe sell them in a handful of states in very low numbers.
There was a time when charging stations were limited and people were comparing electric vehicles to ICE vehicles. And there was a time when the Leaf was ground breaking and leading the pack with EV range of 40 miles.
The question people should be asking is: how can anyone/company/legacy OEM still think hydrogen has a future? Why don’t the legacy OEM’s that believe in hydrogen build out the hydrogen network necessary for cars, the same way Tesla built out the supercharger network? Why aren’t they rapidly converting factories over to build hydrogen cars and trucks? If hydrogen is so superior to batteries or I.C.E vehicles why isn’t this happening? Oh, wait, because it’s not. Duh!
@@danieldeblasio9368, in most cases, that would be a recipe for disaster. The hydrogen molecule is much smaller than the molecules in natural gas (methane and ethane) thus can leak out where natural gas won't. Worse, most of the natural gas infrastructure is made of steel, and hydrogen will dissolve into steel and turn it brittle. So, only pipelines made of hydrogen-proof and hydrogen tight materials could safely carry hydrogen. More importantly, there is a lot more demand for natural gas, and the few uses for hydrogen are almost entirely produced locally, often on-site, thus no long pipelines are needed. Hydrogen fueling stations make their own hydrogen, usually from natural gas, it is not piped in.
@@danieldeblasio9368 Except that is a Red Herring argument. No one will undertake that as a Hydrogen station will cost millions for a station that can refuel a couple of dozen cars a day. The price of $16 to $17 per Kg is around 3x to 4x more than Supercharging a Tesla and around 8x to 9x more expensive than charging it at home, and even higher than in some states where charging off peak can be $0,05 or less. So, in reality, except for some government sponsored plans like in Japan, no one will ever pay for building Hydrogen infrastructure that is not price competitive from day one.
@@chrismuir8403 Yes - exactly. I suspect that the claim that this is possible is something the oil & gas industries might use to make their new pipelines seem more acceptable to regulators. But for 100% sure, it's not just a matter of pumping different gasses down the same pipeline. Leakage and embrittlement are serious issues for anything that's used for handling hydrogen.
And why doesn't Toyota tell us how much we would spend on repairs and maintenance on a complex hydrogen system over 10 years? Won't be spending that on a model 3!
End of life of the tanks is 10 years, replacement costs thousands of dollars ---> a Toyota Mirai is a guaranteed total loss after 10 years --> depreciation is stupidly rediculous, nobody would buy your Mirai after 5 years of ownership. Hence, nobody with a sane mind will ever buy a Toyota Mirai, ONLY people working in the H2 industry are FORCED to drive these stupid cars to show off how 'good' they are and justifying the existence of the industry they are working in.
@@MarcoNierop If you live where you can get hydrogen and you only lease for 3 years it could make financial sense for you the consumer. If you look at the whole thing it is a waste of money of the government supporting a high cost inefficient implementation.
Fuel Cells dont degrade like lithium batteries. The only thing that messes up on a Toyota Mirai is the battery. You can research the life of a Fuel Cell and do your analysis. Why dont these EV producers tells us about the impact on our electrical GRID and the black outs that will come with it? Telsa model 3 reliability is very concerning, that model has been in the shop and under repair since 2017. The model Y and X are total POS. No reliability something is always breaking. If you have stocks in Telsa, I recommended you sell them ASAP.
@@suijinnoname6412 The government needs sustainable power. This is why they invest into hydrogen. Just like NASA and the aerospace industry. You wont see lithium batteries making any flying cars. You wont see batteries making any skyrockets anytime soon. If Hydrogen was a worthless investment why is every other country investing in Hydrogen? Why did Korea build a powerplant? Why does China and the rest of the world want Hydrogen power plants?
Toyota is a classic legacy company that gets too invested in their legacy business to move forward. It happened with Sony with the Trinitron TV's, Kodak with film, Nokia with flip phones and now Toyota with combustion engine cars.
The main reason toyota is successful now, is because they experimented in everything in the early 90s when there was every type of vehicle coming out. They have variety, Honda could have been where Toyota are but they are not, because they played it safe. This is what they are doing now toyota, experimenting in everything so that when one of the techs wins out, they are at least at the forefront
@@lexuslfa4739 true they are all over the place, I think Honda is also lost but spent less and is not as pushy on defending its path. If Toyota came out with a sail based car would that make them more impressive even if it too is a failed tech choice?
@@savinogriesi4761 you’re forgetting that this is the team spent 1bn £ in f1 just for marketing, rolled out a 400,000£ car just to prove a point and made no money of it and it didn’t even pinch them, this is not loosing Toyota any money, in fact it’s good as they set themselves up nicely for the future. They are experimenting on multiple futures as I have said. The advantage they have over the newbies is that people trust and live by those brands, so if they came out with an electric version of their car, people are most likely to buy it, this is why they are taking long to introduce an electric car.
Hydrogen cars DO draw electricity from the grid. To compress and refrigerate the hydrogen to store it uses a large amount of electricity. Also, as hydrogen is sourced 95% from fossil fuels and consumes energy to store, hydrogen cars, overall, emit much more CO2 than regular gasoline cars.
I have searched for videos that discussed the actual cost of operating a hydrogen vehicle, especially in comparison to BEVs, and all I could find was mention of Toyota’s $15,000 fuel credit and how the hydrogen refueling infrastructure is so limited compared to BEVs. So I want to thank you for addressing this issue almost immediately in your video. Because, ultimately what I want to know is, which is the technology we should be investing in? Yes, BEVs and Tesla’s in particular, because if their own vast supercharging network, currently have a huge advantage. But if hydrogen is cost effective, but only hampered by a lack of refueling infrastructure, then I’d like to know. Because even if one technology is better than another, the cost of operation to the consumer will be a major, if not THE major factor in the ultimate willingness of the masses to adopt a given technology (unless, of course, the government forces us to a particular solution through legislation).
Keep in mind that faster acceleration = higher power draw from the battery(!), and since each cell's limit isn't that high, you essentially need a sizeable battery to enable quick acceleration (remember how the 60kWh Model S had slightly slower acceleration than the 85kWh?). Fuel cells generally don't have great peak output and I don't believe their response is instant, so a battery buffer is used to provide for demand peaks (i.e. acceleration) and recoup energy during deceleration. I can think of a few ways around that, but they all add cost and complexity.
Hence the Mirai has a 1.24kWh battery. Acceleration can easily use tens of kW which would strain a small battery like that. The fuel cell can make up to 128kW but it probably takes time to ramp up hence the slow acceleration.
if I'm not mistaken I heard from Bjorn that the H2 refiling time, if you're first in line, is about 10min. And if it's a busy station (meaning 4 or more fill-ups per hour) it might take 15-25min. Please don't quote me on this cuz I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to what the H2 videos there again to confirm the numbers. But the takeaway is that it's basically the same time of supercharging on average (electric cars hardly ever charge past 80%).
Exactly. The common misconception is that Hydrogen stations can fuel back to back vehicles. In reality, due to the cold temperatures and Hydrogen generation time, an average station can only fuel a couple of dozen vehicles in a day.
I live in California and I would never buy a Mirai. Exactly for the reasons you mentioned so clearly. Overpriced, underpowered and no fueling infrastructure.
Good review hitting the important points. One less-known reality of the Mirai is that it has to gradually vent its H2, so the shelf-life of a tank (3 tanks) may be only a few weeks.
@@hfe1833 Unfortunately yes, and this is also so fatal that those Hydrogen advocates try their absolute best to hide this fact. In order to maintain proper pressure some hydrogen needs to be vented. It is literally leaking the fuel.
Hydrogen is the smallest molecule in the universe - and it sneaks past even the best seals (especially when under pressure) - so I can certainly imagine losses due to that - but intentional venting? I hadn't heard of that. Tell us more?! Where did you hear about it?
Do you know that there is a $20k instant rebate for the 2021 Mirai? Plus, 6 years free hydrogen refueling (not 3 years), and the convenience of refueling compared to recharging the Tesla (with the technology behind it)?
Model 3 VS Mirai is the best example of why hydrogen wont beat BEv any time soon, the model 3 manages to weigh less, cost less, go farther, provide higher performance, more passenger and cargo room, higher safety, and easier access to fuel, most of these things people describe as hydrogen having the advantage in.
Obviously Toyota paid them money for the equal rate. I have a model 3 for over 3 years now and beat car I have ever owned. This is why 20% of my net worth in Tesla stock.
Two phrases you always hear from Tesla owners: "It never gets old" (stomping the pedal), and "It's the best car I've ever owned". From us as well - we also reserved a Cybertruck.
Curious to know, so many people say Tesla is the best car they’ve ever owned. What car did you have before the TM3? Thinking of buying one in the next few years.
@@ruimpinho I had a Prius before my 3. Before that I was mostly Toyota - Avalon, Corolla. The move up was amazing, when I had a rental for a few days (sentry mode recorded someone denting my car, so had to get bodywork done) it hurt so bad... pressing accelerator in ICE and waiting for the power to get to the wheels... clearly why most don’t ever want to switch back and everything just feels so ‘wrong’ and ‘bad’
I can’t charge at home or at work and live about 40 min from a hydrogen station. So I should be a potential customer for a Mirai. But I have don the math. There is a fast charger next to the store where we do the weekly shopping. It’s even free of charge. When we do the shopping the battery would be full of charge for no extra time at all.
Why can’t you charge at home? Do you live in an apartment? If so, you could ask the “landlord” if they would be willing to install at least a 110-220v outlet near where you park your car or install some designated parking for EVs. You can even offer to pay for some of the cost if they are resistant. At least pay for your charging use. All they would be doing is future proofing and be able to attract other EV owners or soon to be owners to consider residency there over places that don’t offer such an amenity, which will become more relevant as the years come to pass.
@@FlipBoxStudio i actually have a 220v outlet at my parking spot but it’s only rated for a car heater. And changing the rating to car charging is a hassle. So technically I can charge a car but I’m not Allowed.
*This* , many "apartment dwellers" complain that they can't charge the car everyday. There are many EVs that given the average american driving distance (33 miles) can go at least 5-7 days before needing to be recharged. What is needed is to increase the number of chargers in supermarkets/malls etc so that everybody should be fine just charging the car for the incoming week when doing groceries/shopping.
Hydrogen is dropping in customer desirability in Germany. A representative 2020 survey by a German energy agency concluded that if car prices were equal for all fuel types: 25% chose hydrogen (but -9% from 2019) 23% battery (+6%) 23% hybrid (+5%) 15% petrol (+2%) 10% diesel (+2%) 2% natural gas (-1%) 1% none of the above 1% undecided
That is a natural progression as EV range goes up and cost goes down. The only theoretical advantage of Hydrogen used to be shorter refueling times and longer range vs many BEV's. As BEV range goes up and costs drop, Hydrogen will become less and less attractive except for larger vehicles like trucks and buses.
Limited fuel availability is not the reason people don't buy FCEVs. It might be the first reason, but whenever sellers convince gov't to invest in Hydrogen refuelling it still doesn't help. Look at Germany and Japan, they have excellent H2 networks but little to no sales in Germany, and only a fraction of target in Japan when they provide up to $32,000 subsidy per car. www.ifri.org/en/publications/notes-de-lifri/japans-hydrogen-society-ambition-2020-status-and-perspectives As you mention Hydrogen efficiency is it problem, there is no getting past it, this is what causes its high cost and high power demand for "green" hydrogen. You can't even get past that to look at whether there is enough materials in the world, nevermind enough power.
A Toyota Mirai bought today does not have the hardware to EVER be autonomous. Even if you don't buy FSD with your Tesla, you can buy or subscribe to the software later, if you so decide.
TLDR: If you live in California and want to buy a new car within the next weeks, the total cost of ownership of the Mirai is significantly less by about $10k than the Model 3. 1. Operational Expenditures: Firstly, as you state in the video, Hydrogen is an early technology with limited infrastructure and use cases which is reflected in the current H2 price. UC Irvine projects the H2 price to drop to around $6.00-$8.50 by 2025. Also, Toyota extends the $15k free fuel period to 6 years if you purchase the car before 6/30/21. Factoring in these two facts, you can drive much longer on "free hydrogen". As a result, using your 10 year timeframe and assuming an avg. 10% price decrease in H2 per year, you'll end up with approx. $4.8k in fuel costs. Secondly, we should compare apples with apples here: As you can get the Mirai only in California so far, you should also use the CA electricity costs for the Tesla benchmark (19.03 cents as shown in your graph). Also, keep in mind that electricity prices increase more rapidly in CA than anywhere else in the nation. A conservative CAGR would be 3.4%. Taking this into account and assuming an efficiency of 26 kWh per 100 miles, you'd end up spending ~$7.8k in "fuel" costs for the Model 3. 2. Capital Expenditures: Toyota currently offers a $20k OEM rebate on the Mirai and a 0% financing option. In addition, there is a $8k federal tax credit and a $4.5k CA incentive available. Factoring these incentives into Mirai's price you'll end up at ~$18k pre-tax. There is also an incentive for BEVs available in CA, but I believe it's only $2k for the Model 3 and the federal tax credit is no longer available for Tesla. Bottom line is, that even if you can only sell the Mirai for 20% of the initial invest, it is still a better deal than the Model 3 (assuming a resell price of 50%).
I dunno why people listen to these morons. Shoddy analysis without factoring future events. As with any new tech, the price of operation is always higher. With time and economies of scale, the price inevitably drops. As if tesla charging stations were widespread on its inception. The hydrogen infrastructure will come.
@@Menga213 You mean like every other car manufacture in history? Also, TESLA is the ONLY company to ever pay it back, WITH interest. So, the tax payer in USA made a good bet on this one, they made money. Vs. anyone, lets use GM, they are 110Billion in debt, with SEVERAL Government bailout along the way. But don't worry, all upper management still got their bonuses at GM while they were closing plants and laying off workers.
@@CatalystNetwork This channel is not supported by Car and Driver that is just a thumbnail. Car companies are not your friends they are Business Enterprises. Just like Tesla Inc and GM. Also I don't support scams and the automotive industry. They can all fail in my concern. I am not a brand loyalist. I am not the 1%. Elon Musk is known for being a major con artist. By him even daring to use Nikola Telsa name is beyond disrespectful. He has a long track record of deception. He is the modern day Thomas Edison with a with a splash of Bernie Madoff. You don't even know what you are supporting?
In the UK owning a H2 vehicle is unrealistic, the lack of infrastructure currently just 9 refuelling stations throughout the UK rules out any possibility of mainstream H2 vehicle adoption...... www.ukh2mobility.co.uk/stations/
@@hfe1833, the Riversimple is small and ultralight to minimize hydrogen use, but ironically that doesn't really encourage building hydrogen fueling facilities. Who would want to sell if the customers just don't buy much? For those that want a small high efficiency vehicle, the Aptera electric would be a far better option. More efficient, far greater driving range, and of course abundant charging options everywhere. Even better, Aptera will probably go into production before Riversimple does.
Big oil and automakers that support HFC vehicle adoption want the government(tax payers) to pay for the build out of the H2 refueling infrastructure. Something that the EV charging infrastructure doesn’t need to do. And almost any business/gas station can easily and cheaply adopt EV charging stations relative to other types of refueling systems.
@@chrismuir8403 Also the Aptera put the ultra high efficiency and batteries in good use as the solar panel on the body can seriously add some real useable range that should cover most of people range needs.
People aren’t stupid. You can find millions of reviews on the internet. Car magazines are heavily biased because manufacturers have them on their payroll. 💰
Owning a FCV feels like it'd be a step backwards. You get the worst parts of an ICE vehicle, coupled with all the problems that EVs had ten years ago, plus a whole set of new challenges with the hydrogen system (fuel loss, refueling difficulties, etc). Even if there were no fast charging stations anywhere, I'd still buy a Tesla because I can charge at home. Or I can plug in anywhere I go and charge there in an emergency. But I wouldn't buy a FC car even if every gas station in America had a hydrogen pump available because it'd basically be the same as owning an ICE vehicle, except I can't possibly fix it if it breaks.
Hilarious ,like when any of these company s say there gonna crush Tesla s specks in 2 or 3 years Tesla s already conceiving new ideas 5 years ahead. No catching up. And if any thinks Tesla isn’t working on solid state i would think there very wrong
Not sure if it was an accident the Tesla supercharger network shot was fairly outdated I know the I94 route was completed last year. Otherwise great work as always
Once more, a very great video you did there. It should be pointed out though, that refusing example for charging a BEV (Model 3 2020 in this case) is almost the worst case example. In contrast, the absolute best case example would be someone with a larger PV installation on the roof. I personally have a Large PV installation and Battery plus wall charger that can start charging with as low as 1.3kw up to 22kw and is currently setup purely on overhead charging from the PV; in the short and dark winter month I do switch the config so the charger is allowed to take from the grid. As I work from home the Car is standing the majority in the Carport through the day and since end of February this year I payed virtually nothing to charge my BEV and my house's utilities (this includes the Air-Water-Heatpump) Sure, the electricity isn't technically for free, as the cost of the PV installation is still being payed off, but for argument sake I pay very little over the year for charging my BEV. 😀
Its cool. Problem is Toyota does not want to sell it in any states but California. They should have hydrogen tanks at their dealerships to get sales started in other states.
Good job as always Sam, I see there may be some uses for hydrogen later on like boats, ships and planes, but not for personal transportation vehicles, it just does not make sense to use hydrogen over batteries, you are exactly correct, the Mirai does not compare to a Model 3, not even close. I encourage other automakers to get into the electric game and welcome it, but the efforts have to be better than Toyota's. In my own humble personal opinion, as far as I am concerned, seeing what other EV manufacturers are offering right now, if anyone decides to buy and electric car and it is not a Tesla, they are wasting their money, I wish it wasn't that way, but it is, at least for now.
I actually live in that sweet spot in northern California that has good access to hydrogen fuel, and I would still pick the Tesla. In addition to the great points that you made, if you are buying the car, the resale value of the Mirai is considerably lower than any Tesla. Partly because used FCEV owners don't get the free fuel, and also because the resale market for a used Mirai is extremely limited. A couple additional points are that 44% of California hydrogen is produced from renewable sources, and there are other green H2 sources as well. On the other hand home solar can power your EV 100%. A case can be made for the Mirai for lease, as it is more competitive there (if you live in CA). I think that the future success of FCEVs like the Mirai are based in increasing H2 refuelling stations, lowering the cost of green H2 fuel, and making cars like the Mirai plug-in hybrids by simply increasing the size of it's onboard battery. Even though I live close to H2 stations, and Tesla's are tempting, my next car is going to be an Aptera, which is a 2 seat, 3 wheeled, autocycle that will cost under $30K, drive 400+ miles on a charge, and run mostly off of onboard solar panels. I do want hydrogen powered vehicles to succeed, but there are many limiting factors that FCEV automakers have to overcome before they are competitive. And as to why C&D rated the Mirai highly, as many have noted, it's purely because Toyota is a big advertiser, which Tesla isn't.
Considerably like losing over 80% value in just over 3 years. Many Mirai from 2017 are selling for barely $11,000, a far cry from their $58k sticker price in 2017.
Sam, great analysis. My concern with using renewable resources (solar or wind)to make hydrogen is this. Lets use light or wind to create electricity to convert water to hydrogen via electrolysis, so we can then convert the hydrogen back to electricity to power the electric motors, and release water. You didn't go into the efficiency of those conversions, although your chart shows it, but that is where it falls apart for me.
That process only makes sense as a last resort. Converting electricity into Hydrogen and then back is exceptionally inefficient. The only time that really ever makes sense is if you have renewable energy you don't have any place for at all, that is no demand and no storage option.
Great video, but unless I missed it, one of the KEY issues with hydrogen vs electric is that you CANNOT recharge at home overnight. To me, that's a HUGE deal. Most people use EVs to commute to work or shop not too far from home, and so never need to go to a commercial recharging station. That's not an option with hydrogen. I can see no reason whatsoever to go with hydrogen, at least not given the current state of affairs.
I like how they said, the Model 3 gets its power from the national power grids! They make it sound like, you have to go find a utility company in order to plug in and power up your Model 3!
You’re not the right market for the Mirai. Not everyone is looking to get a speeding ticket everytime they get behind the wheel. Some just want to get from point A to point B in quiet serene luxurious comfort. You also don’t live in California so the point of ownership for you is moot, you can’t have a Mirai so why worry about it? As far as cost comparisons go a brand new 2021 Toyota Mirai can be had for around $17k after all incentives right now as of 3/23/21 (Google it, we’ll wait). And that doesn’t even include the $15k in free fuel Toyota is throwing in. They’re practically paying you to drive the car. Try that in a Tesla.
Sam, what you're missing and the reason the Mirai has that high of the rating is the badge. Toyota can't make a bad car and the interior being Lexus like makes up for only being able to refuel it in only 2 zip codes. I'm sure the fact that Toyota is heavily spending their marketing dollars with C&D has no influence on the rating.
Apparently, Toyota had 2.34 million Tesla shares which they sold back in 2017. If they'd kept them, Toyota would now have 11.7 million Tesla shares worth $9.5 billion.
That 0 to 60mph time on the Mirai is an embarrassment. And no luxury amenities can redeem that. If I wanted true luxury at the expense of acceleration; I'd book a cruise.
The "H bomb" used an atomic (fission) bomb to trigger the hyydrogen fusion bomb, so that won't happen in any hydrogen powered vehicle. Mind you hydrogen can burn and even explode, just not nearly as big a bang as an "H bomb".
Well, its Toyota and they have a pretty good following. I don't know if Toyota "sponsors" comparisons, but it is obvious in most cases for these comparisons, such as Edmunds, they don't understand the electric car business and they are biased. Past experience generally creates filters on the way you see things in the present and the future. Unless you can remove those filters imbedded in your brain from the past, you will be biased and probably believe you are objective. It is really human nature. I'm 67 and I think I do pretty well at tossing out the filters that are now irrelevant, but now and then I find myself looking at new tech from an outdated point of view. I forget things sometimes, but other times I have to forget things on purpose to get rid of those nasty filters. That doesn't mean forgetting many lessons learned, but it does mean looking at the present and future with an unfiltered view.
Lets suppose for a moment the internal combustion engine had never been invented and the hydrogen fuel cell provided those early electric vehicles a practical means of travelling longer distances and in no time all vehicles were HFC. What then would every manufacture be keen to offer in their latest model to be one up on the opposition? A bigger battery. The fact is most miles are travelled close to home, so home charging would always make a bigger battery desirable, even if it just meant not needing to plug in each night or ever needing to fill up at the hydro station.
Hydrogen-powered cars are a fool’s errand. Toyota’s CEO is a fool with Dunning-Kruger effect. Somebody has been taking money from Toyota. 3-year-old Toyota Mirai is selling for less than $14k in Washington state. That’s a 75% drop. What a joke!
You completely missed the feature of the marai where Toyota is one of the advertisers on Car and Driver. That’s what makes it just as good in their eyes.
What you are "missing" (you're not, everyone knows this, it's not a secret), Car and Driver gets advertising dollars from Toyota but gets NOTHING from Tesla because Tesla doesn't spend money anywhere to advertise. In other words Car and Driver is biased.
I won't grant that the Mirai has a better interior. It's bakward-looking in contrast to Tesla's future-looking interior, and the space is interrupted by the big tank running through the middle, reminiscent of the (aweful) Fiskar Karma. Also, quality issues with Tesla's are way overblown. My Y's interior is beautiful and flawless, and the only exterior issue is a warped frunk lid, which has nostalgic value for me.
As a member of the AVEQ : I have driven the Mirai. And while it's cosy, has an interesting interior : I can attest it handles nothing like a 3SR+. Also the province of Quebec had some sort of partnership with Toyoda and still it failed to make any kind of sales impact. Our situation is worse than california in terms of fueling stations : 1 in Quebec city, possibly 1 in Trois-Rivières, 1 in Montreal (tbc) and the others are all in the vancouver area : that's < 10 in Canada !!! However Sam, I must chastise you .. you are still not driving a full BEV ?
Car and driver uses a key metric you failed to include. That is the Advertising $ per publication method... Hydrogen is only viable if you have a cheap green way to make it, and the ability to fill your customers tanks. Both are currently lacking.
@@ruimpinho all valid concerns, but I have learned to never say never. It may make sense in certain use cases. Not the cases big oil is talking about, but some others might work well. Imo.
Another example of how some thought and a little effort can expose the laziness and/or corruption of MSM, keep up the good work the elephant in the room, is the resale value of Mirai in 10 years time, by then all the high pressure system would need to be replaced (by law) in a few (5) years - that cost would deem the Mirai worthless (larger trucks etc running of HFCs would have the same problem) whilst the Model 3 will still have over 70% of original capacity and will have depreciated much less than the Mirai and any ICE vehicle over that time The depreciation needs to be factored into the running costs, at which point HFCs would make even less sense
The Mirai has that intangible je ne sais quoi which simply compels all the cool kids to have one. That is why its score and sales are through the roof, not at all because of heavy Toyota advertising in C+D.
The key factor you're missing is the quid pro quo, even if it's only in the form of advertising spending, but it's probably much more, like being given a new model to review.
There are other factors like staggering depreciation. A 2017 Mirai with low miles can be had for around $11,000 which is a staggering 80% loss of the $58k you paid for it in 2017. Compare that to a 2017 Tesla Model 3 which the cheapest one I could find was $28,500. Lets face it, Toyota spends millions on C&D ads every year, Tesla spends $0,000 on C&D ads every year. It sounds cynical but I don't think anyone else can explain the ratings...
a very valid, very fair question. HOW INDEED? well sam, like always- FOLLOW THE $. if BEV'S WIN.. who loses? and, if FCEV's win- who stands to gain? well, the REAL reason we keep hearing about how WONDERFUL hydrogen is- the real reason is because fcev's are the ONLY way big oil stays in the transport game. all OTHER options? leaves them hanging out to dry. I have a 2021 model Y awd. I AM NEVER GOING BACK to big oil or big auto. EVER. the buying experience? legendary. the fit & finish? equally awesome- inside & out. every time tesla pulls 500k more owners AWAY from big oil? is another 1/2 a percent of profit opec will NEVER get back. EVER. Tesla just OWNS IT. another valid question for the hydro-heads. if legacy auto REALLy does believe in the H2 BS? then pull an ELON must & build out an H2 network at the same rate tesla did. perhaps if big oil would spend 2 or 3 million on that instead of trying to short sell tesla? they'd already have their hydrogen network. although- with a nation wide load of hydrogen tanks under 20k LBs. of pressure... in a bad accident? BURRR! chills up my spine. try to imagine for a second- a flame thrower of M1 abrams tank proportions- shooting a beam of burning hydrogen gas across 8 lanes of traffic instantly torching 5 or 6 other vehicles. of course- since it's NOT a tesla? probably 5th page news, 2 sentences and then nothing. not even a nhitsa investigation. tesla fit & finish: I've seen the stories. I know that they're real. and I agree- that's a problem that needs to be handled. but I do kind of suspect it has been. I work in the bay area, I see tesla's EVERYWHERE all the time. when I'm not in a hurry- I always stop & have a look. every time? gaps? perfect. I work on a plumbing maintenance crew at a CA state college. several of my fellow employees drive tesla's. fit & finish? FLAWLESS. the wife & I went on dec. 28, 2020 to pick up our 2021 model Y. fit & finish? FLAWLESS. we went to the fremont factory just so my son could have the ooooohhh aaaaahhh factor. wife was hip on the idea too. there were a few hundred other tesla's waiting for their owners to pick up- while I waited for sales to call us up to the office... I walked around & took in the sights. after all the hubbub about panel gaps- I even brought a little wooden wedge to check our panel gaps. every last car I looked at? perfect. maybe the end of build quality issues? hopefully. in the interview with that car guru manufacturer guy (forget his name?) ELan said the worst time to buy a tesla is when they are 'ramping up' the model you're buying. the best time? once they've reached a 'plateau'. makes sense. it's a new baby- they're trying to teach the product line to 'walk' before it can RUN.
0.08988 gram per litre tiny density. The objective fact why H2 will never be an energy distribution system for dozens of thousands of vehicles in a single City. Basically killing the purpose of Zero Emission vehicle.
You can't guess the highway overtaking acceleration from the 0-60 time being similar to a gas powered car. Otherwise, I totally agree with all you say.
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam The 2014 Nissan LEAF eg did 0-60 in over 10 seconds, but when overtaking it started to accelerate instantly (no revving up needed) from 65 to 75. It also beat many expensive big engine cars in 0-35 (relevant in city driving) eg when pulling away from a traffic light. Anyway, it's just a minor point in your assessment. The Mirai shouldn't even be treated like a car that's feasible for a regular consumer.
One thing they didn't know, about even hydrogen stations is available there's no guarantee you'll get fuel sometimes delivery is late, sometimes its offline for no reasons and sometimes the nozzle getting frozen then thr next car will have to wait for some minutes and maintenance that you don't know when will be back it's pretty unreliable and Toyota customer support will juts pass this to the refueling station they said it's not their problem. Complicated starts when you ask about pricing from the dealership down to the refueling and upto the car itself
And I hadn't heard much about the Air Products Hydrogen facility in Santa Clara, CA which exploded in 2019, leaving most Hydrogen cars parked for months in the San Franciso Bay area. Around 2000 fuel cell drivers had to park their cars for months until they fixed the facility and resumed Hydrogen delivery to the Bay Area stations.
But the Mirai is only available as a three year lease, there is no option to buy it outright. So it is fair for them to just look at three years on fuel costs. Anyway, hydrogen PR is pointless and hilarious, the technology only has benefits for Big Oil, and no advantages for the customer so it will never be widely adopted.
The rating is independent bro. The rating gets -1 score for each panel gap. hence a huge penalty for tesla. When i buy a car, the only thing that matters is panel gaps. Whenever i show a car to somehow, they always bring a caliper and measure every gaps
fCsr and Driver is a sinking ship dependent on print ads. They would be going bankrupt already if they did not slow the adoption of a car that pays nothing for ads. Ford spends $3000 per vehicle in advertising and it is the second oldest brand in the world so it is odd that it needs any advertising. Toyota is a very conservative company so will stick with TV and print ads for a long time
10:19 missing key factor:
_"Big Oil Using Big PR Firm to Push Hydrogen"_
hahaha 😂
That would be funny if it weren't true.
Very true
Wait why would "big oil" push renewable fuel like hydrogen?
@@bonda_racing3579 Hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production
Toyota advertise HEAVILY on Car & Driver, Tesla spent $0 on C&D :) the world is a simple place, just follow the money :)
Tesla has NOT been plagued with quality control issues on the interior. The interior on these cars is beautiful. Everyone who has one loves the interior. Where does this shit come from?
MEDIA
$90 to go 400 miles in hydrogen
$27 to go 400 miles at $2.35/gallon (inexpensive gas)
$13 to go 400 on electricity at 13¢/kwh (Model S)
Simple math
Or even less when charging off peak. GA off peak rates are $0,03 per kWh so 400 miles would cost you $3.
Hadn't thought about it but I'm in Canada and pay 5.9c/kwh CDN for electricity. So filling a Tesla is like $6 lol.
Where in the world did he get $90 price? Well no worries, Fuel Cell will get 3x the range very soon.
th-cam.com/video/Jmom7gfbtq4/w-d-xo.html
@@Menga213 considering hydrogen is nearly 10x the price of regular electricity, I'm surprise it's only $90 to be honest. Hydrogen could work if it becomes a hell of a lot more efficient but the MAJOR show stopper is the tens of billions required to build the infrastructure.
When the plants cost a couple hundred million each then you need to build out the pipelines or delivery to the stations etc. which also cost a couple million each... It makes the whole thing basically a non-starter. Might work fine for long haul trucks but having the infrastructure in place for every day cars will take at least 20-30 years.
Feasibility of Hydrogen consumer cars = Zero. Too inefficient, no home charging, no infrastructure. Never gonna happen, batteries have won.
All that and the hydrogen boils off while the car is just sitting around…
@Alex McAuliff And let's not forget the multi layer air filtration system. It's basically big multistage HEPA filter with filtration of particulate N99 level and gases of a level at least A1B1E1K1.
LOL yea try use that BEV in a war zone or a 3ed world country or after a natural catastrophe. yea yea YOU might be wrapped up in bubble wrap and may never need to and power to you. but in the real world this will be a requirement. just like we have petrol and diesel cars in the future we will have BEV for coffee sipping city dwellers and FCEV for military industrial and rugged vehicles.
Ow your deploying a mission to the middle of no where NP we can air drop a tank of hydrogen where you need it we will let the stupids take gun fire while there vehicles "fast charge".
Ow your a airliner ok well here is a method to fuel your aircraft that is much lighter then battery and has more energy density meaning longer range of flight.
Ow you have a shipping container and need to turn that big boy around stat cos time is money NP allow us to quickly fill you up without the need of heavy battery and the need to pack a SHIPPING container full of them.
just to give a few examples.
C&D is shilling for a huge advertiser. Sadly, I can remember when C&D did real reviews.
I agree. And remember too. Back then, printed magazines could survive on subscribers + ad revenue, but today, not so much. The disconnect is why we end up here on Sam's channel; it's viewer supported. Keep up the great work Sam!
That could be why Tesla doesn’t get treated better by the media. They have a policy of no advertising.
@@noahabrams9909 I don't think it's a policy per se, I think they just don't need to advertise since they sell every car they can build without paying for advertising! They build new factories with the money they save.
@@ytechnology Haha! Every Mirai ad/article will eventually be 10 for Tesla, soon as Mirai owners' reviews get out. An eco-woke co-worker got one of the early Honda Hydrogen cars & just couldn't admit how much he regretted it.
@@hillmans69 I think it started like you say where Elon probably realized that word of mouth is the best advertising, but I voted on weather to advertise a few months ago as a shareholder so I think it is a policy of sorts.
2019 US sales:
Mirai = 1,502
Model 3 = 161,100
2020 US sales:
Mirai = 499
Who is buying the Mirai and why? Quite the mystery.
🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍👍👍👍
@@MyDarkMuffin Probably a few people in CA leasing it with free fuel for 3 years.
@@MyDarkMuffin Basically free to drive on a lease if you subtract equivalent gas cost of ICE vehicle.
Sam. You have a great ability to clearly share information. Congratulations and thanks. 😊
I appreciate that!
thank you!
Of course Mirai is getting high scores. His family pays for advertisement. This has high rankings.
th-cam.com/video/Af_hmG25Szo/w-d-xo.html
Please Sam! I think many of us outside the US will really appreciate if you're able to provide metric values together with imperial. And thanks for your video!
There are fewer retail hydrogen refueling stations in the United States than there are electric outlets in the average home.
oh please dude you just sound ignorant. We all can agree that when gas cars over the decades have been successful but back when they were first produced we had naysayers saying gas cars are crap and there aren't any highways to drive them on well now that all the highways have been constructed it became the most popular mode of transportation so what's not to say that that can happen to hydrogen cars once they expand their hydrogen fueling stations just like how highways were constructed to accomodate gas cars? If someone invented the best alternative renewable fuel source that was clean it would always have the infancy problem of starting up and gaining traction which can be said about any new car fuel, scant fueling stations doesn't invalidate the science on the new, best alternative renewable fuel
Can’t believe you only have 13k subscribers!! That was another good one Sam. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
and the 12k feels like a lot 😂
Fool’s cells!
You nailed it ✅
Toyota is just stupid not offering BEV’s
Just read article about them going all in on electric
www.torquenews.com/6626/look-out-tesla-toyota-s-shocking-announcement-shows-they-are-all-electrified-vehicles
😂😂😂
@@matthewboyd8689 Key word in that article is "electrified" which almost never means BEV. Toyota is a slow old dog.
Toyota and Subaru just announced a partnership to start building 100 pct BEVs. First up is an SUV
@@matthewboyd8689 Wow, what a horribly written story.
I wouldn't consider that "going all in" on electric. It's two BEVs and a plug-in hybrid.
@@matthewboyd8689 And in "going all in" meaning they will build a few thousand vehicles and maybe sell them in a handful of states in very low numbers.
There was a time when charging stations were limited and people were comparing electric vehicles to ICE vehicles. And there was a time when the Leaf was ground breaking and leading the pack with EV range of 40 miles.
The question people should be asking is: how can anyone/company/legacy OEM still think hydrogen has a future? Why don’t the legacy OEM’s that believe in hydrogen build out the hydrogen network necessary for cars, the same way Tesla built out the supercharger network? Why aren’t they rapidly converting factories over to build hydrogen cars and trucks? If hydrogen is so superior to batteries or I.C.E vehicles why isn’t this happening? Oh, wait, because it’s not. Duh!
Actually it is!
The Biden adminstration as well as pipeline owners plan on converting natural gas pipelines into hydrogen pipelines! Don't believe it? Google it!
@@danieldeblasio9368, in most cases, that would be a recipe for disaster. The hydrogen molecule is much smaller than the molecules in natural gas (methane and ethane) thus can leak out where natural gas won't. Worse, most of the natural gas infrastructure is made of steel, and hydrogen will dissolve into steel and turn it brittle. So, only pipelines made of hydrogen-proof and hydrogen tight materials could safely carry hydrogen.
More importantly, there is a lot more demand for natural gas, and the few uses for hydrogen are almost entirely produced locally, often on-site, thus no long pipelines are needed. Hydrogen fueling stations make their own hydrogen, usually from natural gas, it is not piped in.
@@danieldeblasio9368 Except that is a Red Herring argument. No one will undertake that as a Hydrogen station will cost millions for a station that can refuel a couple of dozen cars a day. The price of $16 to $17 per Kg is around 3x to 4x more than Supercharging a Tesla and around 8x to 9x more expensive than charging it at home, and even higher than in some states where charging off peak can be $0,05 or less.
So, in reality, except for some government sponsored plans like in Japan, no one will ever pay for building Hydrogen infrastructure that is not price competitive from day one.
@@chrismuir8403 Yes - exactly. I suspect that the claim that this is possible is something the oil & gas industries might use to make their new pipelines seem more acceptable to regulators. But for 100% sure, it's not just a matter of pumping different gasses down the same pipeline. Leakage and embrittlement are serious issues for anything that's used for handling hydrogen.
And why doesn't Toyota tell us how much we would spend on repairs and maintenance on a complex hydrogen system over 10 years? Won't be spending that on a model 3!
End of life of the tanks is 10 years, replacement costs thousands of dollars ---> a Toyota Mirai is a guaranteed total loss after 10 years --> depreciation is stupidly rediculous, nobody would buy your Mirai after 5 years of ownership.
Hence, nobody with a sane mind will ever buy a Toyota Mirai, ONLY people working in the H2 industry are FORCED to drive these stupid cars to show off how 'good' they are and justifying the existence of the industry they are working in.
@@MarcoNierop exactly. No one is buying the first gen Mirai’s which are currently for sale. It’s worthless.
@@MarcoNierop If you live where you can get hydrogen and you only lease for 3 years it could make financial sense for you the consumer. If you look at the whole thing it is a waste of money of the government supporting a high cost inefficient implementation.
Fuel Cells dont degrade like lithium batteries. The only thing that messes up on a Toyota Mirai is the battery. You can research the life of a Fuel Cell and do your analysis. Why dont these EV producers tells us about the impact on our electrical GRID and the black outs that will come with it?
Telsa model 3 reliability is very concerning, that model has been in the shop and under repair since 2017. The model Y and X are total POS. No reliability something is always breaking. If you have stocks in Telsa, I recommended you sell them ASAP.
@@suijinnoname6412 The government needs sustainable power. This is why they invest into hydrogen. Just like NASA and the aerospace industry. You wont see lithium batteries making any flying cars. You wont see batteries making any skyrockets anytime soon. If Hydrogen was a worthless investment why is every other country investing in Hydrogen? Why did Korea build a powerplant? Why does China and the rest of the world want Hydrogen power plants?
Toyota is lost, in its leadership, Engineering, Marketing and Vision, Sam points it out with good examples in a friendly manner.
Toyota is a classic legacy company that gets too invested in their legacy business to move forward. It happened with Sony with the Trinitron TV's, Kodak with film, Nokia with flip phones and now Toyota with combustion engine cars.
@@redbaron6805 very good point
The main reason toyota is successful now, is because they experimented in everything in the early 90s when there was every type of vehicle coming out. They have variety, Honda could have been where Toyota are but they are not, because they played it safe. This is what they are doing now toyota, experimenting in everything so that when one of the techs wins out, they are at least at the forefront
@@lexuslfa4739 true they are all over the place, I think Honda is also lost but spent less and is not as pushy on defending its path. If Toyota came out with a sail based car would that make them more impressive even if it too is a failed tech choice?
@@savinogriesi4761 you’re forgetting that this is the team spent 1bn £ in f1 just for marketing, rolled out a 400,000£ car just to prove a point and made no money of it and it didn’t even pinch them, this is not loosing Toyota any money, in fact it’s good as they set themselves up nicely for the future. They are experimenting on multiple futures as I have said. The advantage they have over the newbies is that people trust and live by those brands, so if they came out with an electric version of their car, people are most likely to buy it, this is why they are taking long to introduce an electric car.
The key factor you’re missing is obviously that Toyota probably paid for that rating lol. Nice vid.
I'm shocked that the same publication that rips the Pruis's acceleration heavily, doesn't apply the same standard for the Mirai.
Money talks
th-cam.com/video/Af_hmG25Szo/w-d-xo.html
Hydrogen cars DO draw electricity from the grid. To compress and refrigerate the hydrogen to store it uses a large amount of electricity. Also, as hydrogen is sourced 95% from fossil fuels and consumes energy to store, hydrogen cars, overall, emit much more CO2 than regular gasoline cars.
Prove it? Don't just say it..
th-cam.com/video/Af_hmG25Szo/w-d-xo.html
Not true.
Simple, Toymotor, spends US$billions on advertising; Tesla doesn't.
I have searched for videos that discussed the actual cost of operating a hydrogen vehicle, especially in comparison to BEVs, and all I could find was mention of Toyota’s $15,000 fuel credit and how the hydrogen refueling infrastructure is so limited compared to BEVs. So I want to thank you for addressing this issue almost immediately in your video. Because, ultimately what I want to know is, which is the technology we should be investing in? Yes, BEVs and Tesla’s in particular, because if their own vast supercharging network, currently have a huge advantage. But if hydrogen is cost effective, but only hampered by a lack of refueling infrastructure, then I’d like to know. Because even if one technology is better than another, the cost of operation to the consumer will be a major, if not THE major factor in the ultimate willingness of the masses to adopt a given technology (unless, of course, the government forces us to a particular solution through legislation).
Keep in mind that faster acceleration = higher power draw from the battery(!), and since each cell's limit isn't that high, you essentially need a sizeable battery to enable quick acceleration (remember how the 60kWh Model S had slightly slower acceleration than the 85kWh?). Fuel cells generally don't have great peak output and I don't believe their response is instant, so a battery buffer is used to provide for demand peaks (i.e. acceleration) and recoup energy during deceleration. I can think of a few ways around that, but they all add cost and complexity.
Hence the Mirai has a 1.24kWh battery. Acceleration can easily use tens of kW which would strain a small battery like that. The fuel cell can make up to 128kW but it probably takes time to ramp up hence the slow acceleration.
if I'm not mistaken I heard from Bjorn that the H2 refiling time, if you're first in line, is about 10min. And if it's a busy station (meaning 4 or more fill-ups per hour) it might take 15-25min. Please don't quote me on this cuz I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to what the H2 videos there again to confirm the numbers. But the takeaway is that it's basically the same time of supercharging on average (electric cars hardly ever charge past 80%).
Exactly. The common misconception is that Hydrogen stations can fuel back to back vehicles. In reality, due to the cold temperatures and Hydrogen generation time, an average station can only fuel a couple of dozen vehicles in a day.
Eeeexactly. On the outside the Mirai seems cool, but when you start to peel back the layers, the undeniable truths emerge.
I live in California and I would never buy a Mirai. Exactly for the reasons you mentioned so clearly. Overpriced, underpowered and no fueling infrastructure.
Good review hitting the important points. One less-known reality of the Mirai is that it has to gradually vent its H2, so the shelf-life of a tank (3 tanks) may be only a few weeks.
I didn’t know that, Are there certain parameters that caused the venting?
What do u mean by this? Even if you are not using it will gradually empty your tank? I didn't about that
@@hfe1833 Unfortunately yes, and this is also so fatal that those Hydrogen advocates try their absolute best to hide this fact. In order to maintain proper pressure some hydrogen needs to be vented. It is literally leaking the fuel.
Very complicated indeed, even purchasing from dealership pricing and dealing with lease, tsk tsk
Hydrogen is the smallest molecule in the universe - and it sneaks past even the best seals (especially when under pressure) - so I can certainly imagine losses due to that - but intentional venting? I hadn't heard of that. Tell us more?! Where did you hear about it?
Do you know that there is a $20k instant rebate for the 2021 Mirai? Plus, 6 years free hydrogen refueling (not 3 years), and the convenience of refueling compared to recharging the Tesla (with the technology behind it)?
Love your videos man, keep up the good work!
Hmmm. Which company advertises in Car and Driver, Tesla or Toyota?
Sam when you getting a Tesla
His plan is obviously to sell teslas to get enough to buy one.
$25,000 Tesla for me
Cybertruck
He’s from the Pacific Northwest, we drive trucks!
@@Charlatan-Parodyman he clearly states in the video he drives a Camry.
Model 3 VS Mirai is the best example of why hydrogen wont beat BEv any time soon, the model 3 manages to weigh less, cost less, go farther, provide higher performance, more passenger and cargo room, higher safety, and easier access to fuel, most of these things people describe as hydrogen having the advantage in.
Obviously Toyota paid them money for the equal rate. I have a model 3 for over 3 years now and beat car I have ever owned. This is why 20% of my net worth in Tesla stock.
Two phrases you always hear from Tesla owners: "It never gets old" (stomping the pedal), and "It's the best car I've ever owned". From us as well - we also reserved a Cybertruck.
Curious to know, so many people say Tesla is the best car they’ve ever owned. What car did you have before the TM3? Thinking of buying one in the next few years.
@@ruimpinho I had a Prius before my 3. Before that I was mostly Toyota - Avalon, Corolla. The move up was amazing, when I had a rental for a few days (sentry mode recorded someone denting my car, so had to get bodywork done) it hurt so bad... pressing accelerator in ICE and waiting for the power to get to the wheels... clearly why most don’t ever want to switch back and everything just feels so ‘wrong’ and ‘bad’
@@mjm012 thanks for the feedback! I wonder how it compares to more premium cars such as the Mercedes E and S Class and BMW 5/6/7 series.
I can’t charge at home or at work and live about 40 min from a hydrogen station. So I should be a potential customer for a Mirai. But I have don the math. There is a fast charger next to the store where we do the weekly shopping. It’s even free of charge. When we do the shopping the battery would be full of charge for no extra time at all.
Why can’t you charge at home? Do you live in an apartment? If so, you could ask the “landlord” if they would be willing to install at least a 110-220v outlet near where you park your car or install some designated parking for EVs. You can even offer to pay for some of the cost if they are resistant. At least pay for your charging use. All they would be doing is future proofing and be able to attract other EV owners or soon to be owners to consider residency there over places that don’t offer such an amenity, which will become more relevant as the years come to pass.
@@FlipBoxStudio i actually have a 220v outlet at my parking spot but it’s only rated for a car heater. And changing the rating to car charging is a hassle. So technically I can charge a car but I’m not Allowed.
*This* , many "apartment dwellers" complain that they can't charge the car everyday. There are many EVs that given the average american driving distance (33 miles) can go at least 5-7 days before needing to be recharged.
What is needed is to increase the number of chargers in supermarkets/malls etc so that everybody should be fine just charging the car for the incoming week when doing groceries/shopping.
Hydrogen is dropping in customer desirability in Germany.
A representative 2020 survey by a German energy agency concluded that if car prices were equal for all fuel types:
25% chose hydrogen (but -9% from 2019)
23% battery (+6%)
23% hybrid (+5%)
15% petrol (+2%)
10% diesel (+2%)
2% natural gas (-1%)
1% none of the above
1% undecided
That is a natural progression as EV range goes up and cost goes down. The only theoretical advantage of Hydrogen used to be shorter refueling times and longer range vs many BEV's. As BEV range goes up and costs drop, Hydrogen will become less and less attractive except for larger vehicles like trucks and buses.
Limited fuel availability is not the reason people don't buy FCEVs. It might be the first reason, but whenever sellers convince gov't to invest in Hydrogen refuelling it still doesn't help. Look at Germany and Japan, they have excellent H2 networks but little to no sales in Germany, and only a fraction of target in Japan when they provide up to $32,000 subsidy per car.
www.ifri.org/en/publications/notes-de-lifri/japans-hydrogen-society-ambition-2020-status-and-perspectives
As you mention Hydrogen efficiency is it problem, there is no getting past it, this is what causes its high cost and high power demand for "green" hydrogen. You can't even get past that to look at whether there is enough materials in the world, nevermind enough power.
A Toyota Mirai bought today does not have the hardware to EVER be autonomous. Even if you don't buy FSD with your Tesla, you can buy or subscribe to the software later, if you so decide.
That is beside the fact that it loses about 80% of its value in around 3 years.
Great job Sam. I love your style of investigation and how you call out those who are biased. I'd be embarrassed if I were CD.
TLDR: If you live in California and want to buy a new car within the next weeks, the total cost of ownership of the Mirai is significantly less by about $10k than the Model 3.
1. Operational Expenditures:
Firstly, as you state in the video, Hydrogen is an early technology with limited infrastructure and use cases which is reflected in the current H2 price. UC Irvine projects the H2 price to drop to around $6.00-$8.50 by 2025. Also, Toyota extends the $15k free fuel period to 6 years if you purchase the car before 6/30/21. Factoring in these two facts, you can drive much longer on "free hydrogen". As a result, using your 10 year timeframe and assuming an avg. 10% price decrease in H2 per year, you'll end up with approx. $4.8k in fuel costs.
Secondly, we should compare apples with apples here: As you can get the Mirai only in California so far, you should also use the CA electricity costs for the Tesla benchmark (19.03 cents as shown in your graph). Also, keep in mind that electricity prices increase more rapidly in CA than anywhere else in the nation. A conservative CAGR would be 3.4%. Taking this into account and assuming an efficiency of 26 kWh per 100 miles, you'd end up spending ~$7.8k in "fuel" costs for the Model 3.
2. Capital Expenditures:
Toyota currently offers a $20k OEM rebate on the Mirai and a 0% financing option. In addition, there is a $8k federal tax credit and a $4.5k CA incentive available. Factoring these incentives into Mirai's price you'll end up at ~$18k pre-tax.
There is also an incentive for BEVs available in CA, but I believe it's only $2k for the Model 3 and the federal tax credit is no longer available for Tesla.
Bottom line is, that even if you can only sell the Mirai for 20% of the initial invest, it is still a better deal than the Model 3 (assuming a resell price of 50%).
I dunno why people listen to these morons. Shoddy analysis without factoring future events. As with any new tech, the price of operation is always higher. With time and economies of scale, the price inevitably drops. As if tesla charging stations were widespread on its inception. The hydrogen infrastructure will come.
You’re missing the fact the car driver is a magazine and they’re paid by advertisement and Tesla doesn’t advertise.
Your missing the fact that Tesla has had government support for his project to exist.
@@Menga213 You mean like every other car manufacture in history? Also, TESLA is the ONLY company to ever pay it back, WITH interest. So, the tax payer in USA made a good bet on this one, they made money. Vs. anyone, lets use GM, they are 110Billion in debt, with SEVERAL Government bailout along the way. But don't worry, all upper management still got their bonuses at GM while they were closing plants and laying off workers.
Many people even lost their pensions due to GM's bankruptcy. Great way to look after people.
@@CatalystNetwork This channel is not supported by Car and Driver that is just a thumbnail. Car companies are not your friends they are Business Enterprises. Just like Tesla Inc and GM. Also I don't support scams and the automotive industry.
They can all fail in my concern. I am not a brand loyalist. I am not the 1%. Elon Musk is known for being a major con artist. By him even daring to use Nikola Telsa name is beyond disrespectful. He has a long track record of deception. He is the modern day Thomas Edison with a with a splash of Bernie Madoff. You don't even know what you are supporting?
@@CatalystNetwork th-cam.com/video/c-FGwDDc-s8/w-d-xo.html
The 2021 is currently virtually free if you factor in all incentives. You just pay sales tax.
In the UK owning a H2 vehicle is unrealistic, the lack of infrastructure currently just 9 refuelling stations throughout the UK rules out any possibility of mainstream H2 vehicle adoption...... www.ukh2mobility.co.uk/stations/
But I heard this is rasa fuel cell car by riversimple in UK what's the latest update
@@hfe1833, the Riversimple is small and ultralight to minimize hydrogen use, but ironically that doesn't really encourage building hydrogen fueling facilities. Who would want to sell if the customers just don't buy much?
For those that want a small high efficiency vehicle, the Aptera electric would be a far better option. More efficient, far greater driving range, and of course abundant charging options everywhere. Even better, Aptera will probably go into production before Riversimple does.
Big oil and automakers that support HFC vehicle adoption want the government(tax payers) to pay for the build out of the H2 refueling infrastructure. Something that the EV charging infrastructure doesn’t need to do. And almost any business/gas station can easily and cheaply adopt EV charging stations relative to other types of refueling systems.
@@chrismuir8403 Also the Aptera put the ultra high efficiency and batteries in good use as the solar panel on the body can seriously add some real useable range that should cover most of people range needs.
I drove my model 3 from Iowa to Washington 3 rimes last summer. I didn’t see 1 hydrogen refueling station.
People aren’t stupid. You can find millions of reviews on the internet. Car magazines are heavily biased because manufacturers have them on their payroll. 💰
Owning a FCV feels like it'd be a step backwards. You get the worst parts of an ICE vehicle, coupled with all the problems that EVs had ten years ago, plus a whole set of new challenges with the hydrogen system (fuel loss, refueling difficulties, etc).
Even if there were no fast charging stations anywhere, I'd still buy a Tesla because I can charge at home. Or I can plug in anywhere I go and charge there in an emergency.
But I wouldn't buy a FC car even if every gas station in America had a hydrogen pump available because it'd basically be the same as owning an ICE vehicle, except I can't possibly fix it if it breaks.
Keep up the good work of busting popular news media. And you do it in a classy fashion.
Hilarious ,like when any of these company s say there gonna crush Tesla s specks in 2 or 3 years Tesla s already conceiving new ideas 5 years ahead. No catching up. And if any thinks Tesla isn’t working on solid state i would think there very wrong
Not sure if it was an accident the Tesla supercharger network shot was fairly outdated I know the I94 route was completed last year. Otherwise great work as always
nah didn't mean for it to be out of date, just used a quick google search my bad.
Smashed it, bro!
Does Toyota care about selling it in the USA or did they build it for Japan and then sold it here because of 'demand' and/or incentives?
Once more, a very great video you did there.
It should be pointed out though, that refusing example for charging a BEV (Model 3 2020 in this case) is almost the worst case example.
In contrast, the absolute best case example would be someone with a larger PV installation on the roof. I personally have a Large PV installation and Battery plus wall charger that can start charging with as low as 1.3kw up to 22kw and is currently setup purely on overhead charging from the PV; in the short and dark winter month I do switch the config so the charger is allowed to take from the grid. As I work from home the Car is standing the majority in the Carport through the day and since end of February this year I payed virtually nothing to charge my BEV and my house's utilities (this includes the Air-Water-Heatpump)
Sure, the electricity isn't technically for free, as the cost of the PV installation is still being payed off, but for argument sake I pay very little over the year for charging my BEV. 😀
Its cool. Problem is Toyota does not want to sell it in any states but California. They should have hydrogen tanks at their dealerships to get sales started in other states.
Good job as always Sam, I see there may be some uses for hydrogen later on like boats, ships and planes, but not for personal transportation vehicles, it just does not make sense to use hydrogen over batteries, you are exactly correct, the Mirai does not compare to a Model 3, not even close. I encourage other automakers to get into the electric game and welcome it, but the efforts have to be better than Toyota's. In my own humble personal opinion, as far as I am concerned, seeing what other EV manufacturers are offering right now, if anyone decides to buy and electric car and it is not a Tesla, they are wasting their money, I wish it wasn't that way, but it is, at least for now.
I actually live in that sweet spot in northern California that has good access to hydrogen fuel, and I would still pick the Tesla. In addition to the great points that you made, if you are buying the car, the resale value of the Mirai is considerably lower than any Tesla. Partly because used FCEV owners don't get the free fuel, and also because the resale market for a used Mirai is extremely limited. A couple additional points are that 44% of California hydrogen is produced from renewable sources, and there are other green H2 sources as well. On the other hand home solar can power your EV 100%. A case can be made for the Mirai for lease, as it is more competitive there (if you live in CA). I think that the future success of FCEVs like the Mirai are based in increasing H2 refuelling stations, lowering the cost of green H2 fuel, and making cars like the Mirai plug-in hybrids by simply increasing the size of it's onboard battery. Even though I live close to H2 stations, and Tesla's are tempting, my next car is going to be an Aptera, which is a 2 seat, 3 wheeled, autocycle that will cost under $30K, drive 400+ miles on a charge, and run mostly off of onboard solar panels. I do want hydrogen powered vehicles to succeed, but there are many limiting factors that FCEV automakers have to overcome before they are competitive. And as to why C&D rated the Mirai highly, as many have noted, it's purely because Toyota is a big advertiser, which Tesla isn't.
Considerably like losing over 80% value in just over 3 years. Many Mirai from 2017 are selling for barely $11,000, a far cry from their $58k sticker price in 2017.
Sam, great analysis. My concern with using renewable resources (solar or wind)to make hydrogen is this. Lets use light or wind to create electricity to convert water to hydrogen via electrolysis, so we can then convert the hydrogen back to electricity to power the electric motors, and release water. You didn't go into the efficiency of those conversions, although your chart shows it, but that is where it falls apart for me.
That process only makes sense as a last resort. Converting electricity into Hydrogen and then back is exceptionally inefficient. The only time that really ever makes sense is if you have renewable energy you don't have any place for at all, that is no demand and no storage option.
Hey, fellow Washingtonian! Hope you stayed safe and warm during the snow storm!
just barely haha its been wild. nearly got stuck in my neighborhood today
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam I was able to leave the house today after the rain melted about 75% of the snow, otherwise I’d still be stuck
Great video, but unless I missed it, one of the KEY issues with hydrogen vs electric is that you CANNOT recharge at home overnight. To me, that's a HUGE deal. Most people use EVs to commute to work or shop not too far from home, and so never need to go to a commercial recharging station. That's not an option with hydrogen. I can see no reason whatsoever to go with hydrogen, at least not given the current state of affairs.
I like how they said, the Model 3 gets its power from the national power grids!
They make it sound like, you have to go find a utility company in order to plug in and power up your Model 3!
You’re not the right market for the Mirai. Not everyone is looking to get a speeding ticket everytime they get behind the wheel. Some just want to get from point A to point B in quiet serene luxurious comfort. You also don’t live in California so the point of ownership for you is moot, you can’t have a Mirai so why worry about it? As far as cost comparisons go a brand new 2021 Toyota Mirai can be had for around $17k after all incentives right now as of 3/23/21 (Google it, we’ll wait). And that doesn’t even include the $15k in free fuel Toyota is throwing in. They’re practically paying you to drive the car. Try that in a Tesla.
Never mind the COST of H2... where are you going to fill the tank? Better off bottling your farts every day and putting the result in the tank.
Sam, what you're missing and the reason the Mirai has that high of the rating is the badge. Toyota can't make a bad car and the interior being Lexus like makes up for only being able to refuel it in only 2 zip codes. I'm sure the fact that Toyota is heavily spending their marketing dollars with C&D has no influence on the rating.
Excellent analysis and succinct presentation that didn't waste my time waiting for the info content (as many other youtubers do). Are you a scientist?
glad you liked it! and nope, although I'm a huge fan of science/the scientific method
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam Well, your sharpeyed way of critically reading both between and behind the lines is worthy the honour of a scientist.🤗
Toyota invested in Tesla at the beginning and decided it wasn't worth it way too early. Lol.
Apparently, Toyota had 2.34 million Tesla shares which they sold back in 2017. If they'd kept them, Toyota would now have 11.7 million Tesla shares worth $9.5 billion.
That 0 to 60mph time on the Mirai is an embarrassment. And no luxury amenities can redeem that. If I wanted true luxury at the expense of acceleration; I'd book a cruise.
Keep it up, good stuff Sam!
They will just never stop promoting trash vehicles as long as they are paid
One thing that gets me nervous about it, is being sat on an H Bomb.
The "H bomb" used an atomic (fission) bomb to trigger the hyydrogen fusion bomb, so that won't happen in any hydrogen powered vehicle. Mind you hydrogen can burn and even explode, just not nearly as big a bang as an "H bomb".
@@chrismuir8403 Yes, I was being sarcastic, but ok.
@@cristianfederico2411 no you were being ignorant.
Great content, hope that toyota invest more on infrastructure than advertising..
But it is Shell and BP that is putting serious money in hydrogen, not Toyota
Its easy to understand. Big oil backs hydrogen and big oil indirectly pays for most of the advertising in car and driver.
On time-of-use metering here in CA, I can charge my Tesla for about $0.10/kWh at night. So it's not that bad.
Yeah, I started ignoring all electric Car and Driver articles altogether for stuff like this, 'One sided' shows and its clear as day.
To answer your question: Toyota buys ads, Tesla doesn't
Well, its Toyota and they have a pretty good following. I don't know if Toyota "sponsors" comparisons, but it is obvious in most cases for these comparisons, such as Edmunds, they don't understand the electric car business and they are biased. Past experience generally creates filters on the way you see things in the present and the future. Unless you can remove those filters imbedded in your brain from the past, you will be biased and probably believe you are objective. It is really human nature.
I'm 67 and I think I do pretty well at tossing out the filters that are now irrelevant, but now and then I find myself looking at new tech from an outdated point of view. I forget things sometimes, but other times I have to forget things on purpose to get rid of those nasty filters. That doesn't mean forgetting many lessons learned, but it does mean looking at the present and future with an unfiltered view.
I post a link to the CARSCOOPS on your community page because I couldn't post that link on this page.
awesome!
Lets suppose for a moment the internal combustion engine had never been invented and the hydrogen fuel cell provided those early electric vehicles a practical means of travelling longer distances and in no time all vehicles were HFC.
What then would every manufacture be keen to offer in their latest model to be one up on the opposition? A bigger battery.
The fact is most miles are travelled close to home, so home charging would always make a bigger battery desirable, even if it just meant not needing to plug in each night or ever needing to fill up at the hydro station.
Hydrogen-powered cars are a fool’s errand. Toyota’s CEO is a fool with Dunning-Kruger effect. Somebody has been taking money from Toyota.
3-year-old Toyota Mirai is selling for less than $14k in Washington state. That’s a 75% drop. What a joke!
Great video as always, also nice research. Mandatory comment about TH-cam's perfect balance and no exploits.
Much appreciated!
Commenting for the algorithm. Keep up the good work!
You completely missed the feature of the marai where Toyota is one of the advertisers on Car and Driver. That’s what makes it just as good in their eyes.
What you are "missing" (you're not, everyone knows this, it's not a secret), Car and Driver gets advertising dollars from Toyota but gets NOTHING from Tesla because Tesla doesn't spend money anywhere to advertise. In other words Car and Driver is biased.
yup exactly, I think a lot of people are aware at this point.
You obviously weren't dropped on your head often enough when you were a kid to truly get Car and drivers logic.
I won't grant that the Mirai has a better interior. It's bakward-looking in contrast to Tesla's future-looking interior, and the space is interrupted by the big tank running through the middle, reminiscent of the (aweful) Fiskar Karma. Also, quality issues with Tesla's are way overblown. My Y's interior is beautiful and flawless, and the only exterior issue is a warped frunk lid, which has nostalgic value for me.
yeah thats totally fair. where do you live with that Y? I'd love to check it out if we're close 😂
As a member of the AVEQ : I have driven the Mirai. And while it's cosy, has an interesting interior : I can attest it handles nothing like a 3SR+. Also the province of Quebec had some sort of partnership with Toyoda and still it failed to make any kind of sales impact. Our situation is worse than california in terms of fueling stations : 1 in Quebec city, possibly 1 in Trois-Rivières, 1 in Montreal (tbc) and the others are all in the vancouver area : that's < 10 in Canada !!!
However Sam, I must chastise you .. you are still not driving a full BEV ?
The advertising dollars they are spending with the magazine are like lobby money to congress
Thought the acceleration difference might be the weight, but the Mirai weights less than a model Y.
Car and driver uses a key metric you failed to include. That is the Advertising $ per publication method... Hydrogen is only viable if you have a cheap green way to make it, and the ability to fill your customers tanks. Both are currently lacking.
It will never be cheaper than charging an EV. Too many middle processes (storage, transport to the pumps, converting H2 to energy, etc etc)
@@ruimpinho all valid concerns, but I have learned to never say never. It may make sense in certain use cases. Not the cases big oil is talking about, but some others might work well. Imo.
@@treborheminway3814 sure, it might have a use case. Just not for personal vehicles... at least for now.
Another example of how some thought and a little effort can expose the laziness and/or corruption of MSM, keep up the good work
the elephant in the room, is the resale value of Mirai in 10 years time, by then all the high pressure system would need to be replaced (by law) in a few (5) years - that cost would deem the Mirai worthless (larger trucks etc running of HFCs would have the same problem) whilst the Model 3 will still have over 70% of original capacity and will have depreciated much less than the Mirai and any ICE vehicle over that time
The depreciation needs to be factored into the running costs, at which point HFCs would make even less sense
The Mirai has that intangible je ne sais quoi which simply compels all the cool kids to have one. That is why its score and sales are through the roof, not at all because of heavy Toyota advertising in C+D.
Another amazing video!!!
BuT TrEvOr MiLtOn sAid hYdRoGeN iS tHe FuTuRe 😂😂
oh you're right my b, its the future, its been foretold
The key factor you're missing is the quid pro quo, even if it's only in the form of advertising spending, but it's probably much more, like being given a new model to review.
There are other factors like staggering depreciation. A 2017 Mirai with low miles can be had for around $11,000 which is a staggering 80% loss of the $58k you paid for it in 2017. Compare that to a 2017 Tesla Model 3 which the cheapest one I could find was $28,500.
Lets face it, Toyota spends millions on C&D ads every year, Tesla spends $0,000 on C&D ads every year. It sounds cynical but I don't think anyone else can explain the ratings...
a very valid, very fair question. HOW INDEED? well sam, like always- FOLLOW THE $. if BEV'S WIN.. who loses? and, if FCEV's win- who stands to gain? well, the REAL reason we keep hearing about how WONDERFUL hydrogen is- the real reason is because fcev's are the ONLY way big oil stays in the transport game. all OTHER options? leaves them hanging out to dry. I have a 2021 model Y awd. I AM NEVER GOING BACK to big oil or big auto. EVER. the buying experience? legendary. the fit & finish? equally awesome- inside & out. every time tesla pulls 500k more owners AWAY from big oil? is another 1/2 a percent of profit opec will NEVER get back. EVER. Tesla just OWNS IT.
another valid question for the hydro-heads. if legacy auto REALLy does believe in the H2 BS? then pull an ELON must & build out an H2 network at the same rate tesla did. perhaps if big oil would spend 2 or 3 million on that instead of trying to short sell tesla? they'd already have their hydrogen network. although- with a nation wide load of hydrogen tanks under 20k LBs. of pressure... in a bad accident? BURRR! chills up my spine. try to imagine for a second- a flame thrower of M1 abrams tank proportions- shooting a beam of burning hydrogen gas across 8 lanes of traffic instantly torching 5 or 6 other vehicles. of course- since it's NOT a tesla? probably 5th page news, 2 sentences and then nothing. not even a nhitsa investigation.
tesla fit & finish: I've seen the stories. I know that they're real. and I agree- that's a problem that needs to be handled. but I do kind of suspect it has been. I work in the bay area, I see tesla's EVERYWHERE all the time. when I'm not in a hurry- I always stop & have a look. every time? gaps? perfect. I work on a plumbing maintenance crew at a CA state college. several of my fellow employees drive tesla's. fit & finish? FLAWLESS. the wife & I went on dec. 28, 2020 to pick up our 2021 model Y. fit & finish? FLAWLESS. we went to the fremont factory just so my son could have the ooooohhh aaaaahhh factor. wife was hip on the idea too. there were a few hundred other tesla's waiting for their owners to pick up- while I waited for sales to call us up to the office... I walked around & took in the sights. after all the hubbub about panel gaps- I even brought a little wooden wedge to check our panel gaps. every last car I looked at? perfect. maybe the end of build quality issues? hopefully. in the interview with that car guru manufacturer guy (forget his name?) ELan said the worst time to buy a tesla is when they are 'ramping up' the model you're buying. the best time? once they've reached a 'plateau'. makes sense. it's a new baby- they're trying to teach the product line to 'walk' before it can RUN.
0.08988 gram per litre tiny density. The objective fact why H2 will never be an energy distribution system for dozens of thousands of vehicles in a single City. Basically killing the purpose of Zero Emission vehicle.
What is the difference in safety ratings?
the 2021 Mirai hasn't finished its official testing yet, so unknown
Well driving a potential H Bomb, maybe not too safe.
You can't guess the highway overtaking acceleration from the 0-60 time being similar to a gas powered car. Otherwise, I totally agree with all you say.
yeah thats fair, you can use the 0-60 as somewhat as a reference, but maybe I should have listed the HP numbers for extra reference
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam The 2014 Nissan LEAF eg did 0-60 in over 10 seconds, but when overtaking it started to accelerate instantly (no revving up needed) from 65 to 75. It also beat many expensive big engine cars in 0-35 (relevant in city driving) eg when pulling away from a traffic light. Anyway, it's just a minor point in your assessment.
The Mirai shouldn't even be treated like a car that's feasible for a regular consumer.
One thing they didn't know, about even hydrogen stations is available there's no guarantee you'll get fuel sometimes delivery is late, sometimes its offline for no reasons and sometimes the nozzle getting frozen then thr next car will have to wait for some minutes and maintenance that you don't know when will be back it's pretty unreliable and Toyota customer support will juts pass this to the refueling station they said it's not their problem. Complicated starts when you ask about pricing from the dealership down to the refueling and upto the car itself
And I hadn't heard much about the Air Products Hydrogen facility in Santa Clara, CA which exploded in 2019, leaving most Hydrogen cars parked for months in the San Franciso Bay area.
Around 2000 fuel cell drivers had to park their cars for months until they fixed the facility and resumed Hydrogen delivery to the Bay Area stations.
@@redbaron6805 yes, that's true and one of the reason mirai sales last year drop significantly
But the Mirai is only available as a three year lease, there is no option to buy it outright. So it is fair for them to just look at three years on fuel costs. Anyway, hydrogen PR is pointless and hilarious, the technology only has benefits for Big Oil, and no advantages for the customer so it will never be widely adopted.
The rating is independent bro. The rating gets -1 score for each panel gap. hence a huge penalty for tesla. When i buy a car, the only thing that matters is panel gaps. Whenever i show a car to somehow, they always bring a caliper and measure every gaps
fCsr and Driver is a sinking ship dependent on print ads. They would be going bankrupt already if they did not slow the adoption of a car that pays nothing for ads. Ford spends $3000 per vehicle in advertising and it is the second oldest brand in the world so it is odd that it needs any advertising. Toyota is a very conservative company so will stick with TV and print ads for a long time