Ehhhg, it'll probly be fine! What, the clouds look like eagles? Clouds always look like _something!_ Just the other day I saw a cloud that looked like my--y'know what, it doesn't matter. Don't *_worry_* _about it!!!_
after two ages and the only one in the loop with the mortal world being out of the loop with what all of the others know, it'd just be prideful to not admit that you need to work on communication.
For all his cunning and the fact that he was having fun feeling the earthquakes and daring the lightning to strike him it amuses me that Sauron didn't have an exit strategy in case the Valar actually decided to annihilate Numenor. Mairon's lack of imagination was always his downfall.
It's almost an unprecedented move, isn't it? No matter what Morgoth did, Eru never intervened directly. As bad as things were in Numenor, surely it paled in comparison to the atrocities of the First Age?
@@jacobsedlack1173 I don’t know, did he have any reason at all to think Eru, who had pretty much just let everything play out up until now as far as he could see on the macro level would go all Noah’s arc? He probably thought the Valar would take care of it and maybe even come to handle Numenor directly but that would have given him time to play his winning hide and seek game yet again.
@@DisFantasy Ilúvatar forbade the Valar from taking direct action against the Children of Ilúvatar; that's why the Valar didn't take care of the Númenoreans themselves.
One of my favorite moments in the entire legendarium is when Manwë picks up the red phone and says "Uh, boss, hate to bother you, but, um, we have a bit of a...a situation down here."
"I... Well, we told them! We sent eagles and lightning storms and everything! ... No, boss. ... Yes, boss. [puts down phone with a sigh; mumbles] Shoulda listened to Ulmo."
Cool Hand Sauron shaking his fist heavenward in the lightning storm: "Come on, old man, show me what you got" Eru, flanked by Ulmo wearing mirror shades: "What we have here is failure to communicate"
Tolkien had such a brutal and straight to the point way to expose things that exist in society (have, are, will). You see today mirrored his works. I wonder if there ever will be a time when his words will not strike true with Human culture. I doubt it, but i hope for it. Maybe a third time in modern times will be the charm.
Every time I read the Lost Road, I feel certain if Tolkien had finished it he would have out-Orwelled Orwell. His understanding of man’s nature was profound, even if he tended to shy away from really diving into it the way Lewis does in the Screwtape Letters.
I'm sure that Sauron had all sorts of plans for how he was going to use the remaining Númenoreans to conquer Middle-Earth. Imagine his shock when he realized that the entire world was splitting apart right where Númenor and he were. He must have known only Ilúvatar had that kind of power.
I was looking forward to this so much and you did not disappoint! My country just re-elected Morgoth so hopefully we'll find a way to preserve what's worth saving and find our way back to the light.
Incredible. Trump is Morgoth?!😱😂🤣😆 Trump is an Istar sent by Eru to the USA in order to gather a coalition of people to fight against an invasion, censorship, tyranny, lawfare, and gender theory in our school system. I guess you must like all those things if you voted for Kamala.
I forgot about fighting inflation by freeing up American energy on a huge scale. Also he will force foreign countries to build factories in the US, creating hundreds of thousands of new high-paying jobs for Americans.
@@Enerdhil lolwut The U.S. president doesn't have that power over other countries. He doesn't even have that power over his own country. Where did you get that idea?
@Disgruntled_Dave Tarrifs are Trump's preferred weapon to beat foreign countries into submission. That is how he will crush the BRICS movement and save the dollar as the world's dominant currency. Tracking and other kinds of drilling will release the petroleum and natural gas under the country. The massive supply will drive prices for both way down, making production and shipping much cheaper, driving DOWN prices. The petroleum and natural gas will be so abundant that the US will be able to export to all our allies, driving their prices down, too. That is the plan. We will have to see whether or not it works.
@@Disgruntled_Dave Also, the Republicans control all three branches of government, so they have no excuse for not doing what they promised Americans they would do. The pressures on, boys and girls! 2026 primaries are coming sooner than you think!!
If Sauron hadn't convinced the Numenoreans to attack Valinor, Sauron night have been able to reign in Numenor as the Power behind the throne indefinately.
yhe, he was childless and miriel not so likley to give him one. I guess the biggest problem was ar pharazon. The understanding seems to have been that sauron was making him imortal. and with his death aproaching he would want to cash in. but then again. he would have been a great candidate for a nazgûl and sauron could have ruled numenor through him. guess it comes down to his pride. if you completely turn the edain against eru, you have to show it off alittle bit
Hell, Sauron could probably have impersonated Ar-Pharazon since he hadn't lost his ability to shapeshift yet! He'd have to find a way to get rid of the real Pharazon, of course, but that should be a minor inconvenience for Sauron after establishing trust with the king.
It's an interesting 'what if' scenario to think about what if Sauron had persuaded Ar-Pharazon that he could gain immortality by conquering the Elves in Middle-Earth.
6:12 Making grandiose promises and exaggerated claims that are starkly in contrast to the established morals of the land, in order to divide the people and make it easier to label each other as "enemies." What a sneaky and underhanded, yet fascinating trick!
@Captain_Insano_nomercy I think sacrificing the Faithful was Sauton's way of showing his power over Men. If you are willing to kill another person for someone, there is nothing you won't be willing to do.
I feel like the “finding/exploring/colonizing new lands, and making whole new worlds” angle in the downfall is very much underemphasized in most discussions.
Do you mean when Elros Tar-Minyatur was king? The first few centuries must have been rough because building the infrastructure of the island nation must have been very challenging.
I don't think that The Lost Road fragment was talking about Númenor; or rather the Númenor that we nowadays consider part of the legendarium. Númenor never grew to be similar to an early industrial age power, nor did it achieve steam boats or skyscrapers. I think it's just one of those ideas Tolkien had of connecting industrial progress with decadence.
Until the day it screens, I will have estel will see Sauron being hit by lightning on top of the temple in Rings of Power with the people falling down and worshipping him. A fool's hope, perhaps.
...holy CRAP! I'd never heard about that last, for want of a better term, industrialized age of Numenor. the close up art of the monstrous metal ships was nauseating when you bring to mind the luminous early beauty of their ships and architecture 😢 Sauron's final phase of corruptive desecration was far more thorough than I could have imagined 🤮😩😭
For what happened when Pharazon reached Aman to be anything other than pure speculation, there are really only 6 possible sources, right? Glorfindel or one of the Istari? No one else travels from Valinor to Middle Earth after this happens that I know of. Maybe someone could have mimed it at that one Palantir that sees into Tol Eressea?
05:15 The real truth behind Sauron's basing his manipulations and attempts on Melkor comes from his knowledge that Melkor's spiritual power has spread to Arda and his awareness that this is the driving force behind his ideals. The real meaning of inheriting the corrupted Arda from Melkor is that he provides momentum from the will that forms the basis of this spiritual power. The reason why he established the Melkor cult instead of his own name when he came to Númenor is a concrete example of this.
How does Elendil know what happens to Tar-Miriel and Ar-Pharazon when he wrote the Akallabeth? The only thing that makes sense is he saw them through the Palantir of the tower hills. Thoughts?
Any idea where the palantíri fit into this story? Apparently these were given to the Faithful (or to Amandil) at or after the time when ship travel between Aman and Numenor ceased, and one of them was tuned to an eighth stone that was kept in Tol Eressea. Yet communication by that channel is never mentioned, and when Amandil wants to appeal directly to the Valar he never seems to think of contacting them by that means but considers a sea voyage to be his only possible option. I have my own idea about this in my never-finished fanfic, but can you come up with an explanation based on Tolkien's own works?
The rhyme of lore that Gandalf mumbles indicates that the seven stones were all in the keeping of the Faithful by the time of the Downfall. But that need not have been the case all the time. The King's Men may have used one palantír (or several) to keep an eye on what the other stones were doing, and perhaps one or more stones perished with Númenor. Or perhaps someone 'liberated' the last ones after the fleet had sailed for Aman. But it seems the one kept at Tol Eressëa did not communicate with the others. At least, I don't know of any time that it did. Maybe it could, if someone cared to use it, but some sense of propriety may have prevented this. Whether it was the royal ban on communication with the Eldar, or the stones were given with the understanding that they were meant to communicate with each other. Personally, I think the Ban of the Valar extended to communication via the palantíri, and so there was nobody expecting Amandil's call at the other end when he decided he had to break it.
Has anyone checked on Pharazon and the boys this Age? How is being "Lord of the West" going these days? After 10,000 years or so does regret start to taste like chicken? I've always wondered if the boys from Numenor are sleeping las in Sheol, or if Eru gave these naughty, naughty Children what they wanted in spades. The life of the firstborn, tied to Arda for as long as it exists forgotten, in a cave, in the Dark for forever, or there about.
Ar-Pharazôn and his men are buried alive, but we have no clue what that looks like. Can they move around? Can they talk to each other? Are they always hungry and thirsty and sleepy, but never able to eat, drink, or sleep? A Purgatory where for 24/7 you are stuck with your own thoughts and sins for millennia.
That was great. But what I'd like to know is how Sauron managed to take the ring with him back to Middle Earth in his non-corporeal, amorphous form after the destruction of Numenor.
Tolkien wrote in Letter #211 "[Sauron] naturally had the One [in Númenor], and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." Later in the same Letter he writes, "though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggles at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating mi is now largely depended." So as the Good Professor said, Don't boggle your mind over it.😅
First I'm hearing of Sauron possibly needing to improvise on his capture. I would've thought he could've folded Númenor like laundry. One of Tolkien's vacillations on minor plot details?
I'd nay not, personally. Sauron saw the power of Numenor and immediately changed tack. He knew he couldn't defeat them conventionally as a point of fact, so he went the deception/corruption route. Not that he wasn't powerful, it's just that Numenor was extremely powerful as well.
If he was that powerful, he would have overrun Middle-Earth long before. Indeed, Morgoth would have swatted the Elves in Beleriand like flies as soon as he returned.
I mean since the sources are written by Elves or Men they can really only speculate. Even saying that he never thought Pharazon would succeed is just a guess, though a likely one. Since the whole thing was a con from beginning to end from a source that confided in no one there's no real information. Even the belief that he couldn't have resisted Pharazon's army is just speculation. His first plan was "control the Elves". So maybe when he sees Numenor, seemingly more powerful then the Elves and dumber than a bag of rocks he just went back to plan A.
❤ great video, as always! I was wondering, did Sauton leave the one ring in Mordor when he went to Numenor?! Because if he took it with him, how did he manage to bring it back?! Did i miss something?! 😅
You can easily find ghost stories and the like where they are at times able to affect physical objects. Given that we are talking about a powerful Maia and an object infused with much of his own power, I find it very plausible that he carried it away.
I want to know how Sauron salvaged the ring when he lost his body in Numenor. If he has the power to teleport it with his mind, why didn't he just teleport it to himself when it was lost?
I don't think he teleported it. Even in his spirit form, he was powerful enough (and keep in mind the One Ring was infused with much of Sauron's power so there was a close link between Sauron and the ring) to carry it back to Middle-Earth.
@@istari0 It doesn't make sense to me. If he was powerful enough and controlled enough in his disembodied state to transport the ring back to Middle Earth, then I would think he would be more capable in his re-embodied state to call it to himself. I mean "carry" it with what? He didn't have a body, therefore no hands to carry it. It would have to be some kind of telekinesis with a completely disembodied mind.
@@Cat_Woods Well, there are some thoughts on the matter. From Tolkien, there's two quotes from letter 211 I want to mention: 1: "You cannot press the One Ring too hard, for it is of course a mythical feature, even though the world of the tales is conceived in more or less historical terms." 2: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring". With regards to telekinesis, think of Gandalf and the Balrog striving over a door in Moria. They do not need to touch it to do so, and between them they cause the ceiling to cave in. Another option than that: some sea creature under Sauron's domination carried it for him. This sort of thing was mentioned by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond as a worry of throwing the Ring in the sea. Other methods could be thought of, I expect. Think about the importance of possession of a Ring of Power. Not just being near it or handling it for a moment, but claiming it. With nobody knowing of the Ring (and everyone busy drowning anyway), nobody would have removed the Ring from Sauron's possession as Isildur did. With it, he was able to recorporate relatively quickly, perhaps using it as a starting point. The One Ring is Sauron's even more than any body he ever had, as @istari0 hints at above.
If Tolkien had not said that Sauron had the Ring in Numenor, I would've thought that he left it in Barad-dûr because frankly I don't believe he needed it to conquer the minds of the Númenorians. Nevertheless, somehow Sauron's ëala has to fly back to Barad-dûr carrying the One Ring. Tolkien said it wasn't a big deal, which tells me that the language expert didn't understand physics. It really doesn't matter if it could work in the real world or not. But if Sauron's ëala could escape from Númenor with the One Ring, why couldn't it escape from the foothills of Orodruin, where his dead fana lay before Isildur cut the Ring from his finger? You can't say yes this time and no that time because you said so. That is what the M.F.s at Amazon's RoP do. Yet that is what Tolkien told us happened.😔
Haha, I never noticed Turin Turambar playing the bass guitar in your end card XD Which got me thinking: Could the lead singer be Galadriel? And who is the keyboarder then? The drummer is you, Lexi, right? Do you actually play the drums?
Lexi, thank you. As an actual scholar myself, and a Tolkien adherent for more than 30 years: I truly appreciate your meticulous understanding of Tolkien. You, Matt at NOTR, Robert at IDG are my happy places. I would be privileged if you every wanted to communicate with me.
If there was a proper television show of the second age Amondil would b the only one who could play politics as deftly as sauron. Would luv to see something as simple as a conversation between the 2 of them😮
@Enerdhil somehow, sadly, I don't think they will either. I think they're too caught up in taking Galadriel to the battle of the last Alliance. Same with celeborn
![[ ออกกอง ] วัยหนุ่ม 2544 โลกหลังลูกกรง..ทัวร์กองถ่ายหนังใน "คุกของจริง" | JUSTดูIT.](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vB--aOkZCpw/mqdefault.jpg)
![Glory and Decay: The Downfall of Númenor [Part Two]](/img/n.gif)
Babe, wake up! Zigûr is putting another one on the altar! ......wait, the ocean wasn't there yesterd-
Ehhhg, it'll probly be fine! What, the clouds look like eagles? Clouds always look like _something!_ Just the other day I saw a cloud that looked like my--y'know what, it doesn't matter. Don't *_worry_* _about it!!!_
Sending the Wizards after the 2nd age seems like tacit admission that the Valars' communication skills sucked.
after two ages and the only one in the loop with the mortal world being out of the loop with what all of the others know, it'd just be prideful to not admit that you need to work on communication.
For all his cunning and the fact that he was having fun feeling the earthquakes and daring the lightning to strike him it amuses me that Sauron didn't have an exit strategy in case the Valar actually decided to annihilate Numenor. Mairon's lack of imagination was always his downfall.
"Who, me? I was brought here as a captive against my will! I've been fighting these guys long before you thought it was cool."
It's almost an unprecedented move, isn't it? No matter what Morgoth did, Eru never intervened directly. As bad as things were in Numenor, surely it paled in comparison to the atrocities of the First Age?
@@jacobsedlack1173 I don’t know, did he have any reason at all to think Eru, who had pretty much just let everything play out up until now as far as he could see on the macro level would go all Noah’s arc? He probably thought the Valar would take care of it and maybe even come to handle Numenor directly but that would have given him time to play his winning hide and seek game yet again.
@@DisFantasy Ilúvatar forbade the Valar from taking direct action against the Children of Ilúvatar; that's why the Valar didn't take care of the Númenoreans themselves.
@@istari0 So all the plagues and lighting storms didn't count as direct action?
One of my favorite moments in the entire legendarium is when Manwë picks up the red phone and says "Uh, boss, hate to bother you, but, um, we have a bit of a...a situation down here."
"I... Well, we told them! We sent eagles and lightning storms and everything! ... No, boss. ... Yes, boss. [puts down phone with a sigh; mumbles] Shoulda listened to Ulmo."
@EriktheRed2023 , perfect. 🙂
@@EriktheRed2023 Always listen to Ulmo. He tends to be right about stuff.
@@Archgeek0 Doesn't matter whether you're Noldo, Adan, or Vala. Just listen to Ulmo, dammit.
Yes. Manwë showing his Beta male side.🙄
I like to think that Amandil and his companions made it to Valinor, and there is a tomb for them in Tuna.
Cool Hand Sauron shaking his fist heavenward in the lightning storm: "Come on, old man, show me what you got"
Eru, flanked by Ulmo wearing mirror shades: "What we have here is failure to communicate"
Tolkien had such a brutal and straight to the point way to expose things that exist in society (have, are, will). You see today mirrored his works. I wonder if there ever will be a time when his words will not strike true with Human culture. I doubt it, but i hope for it. Maybe a third time in modern times will be the charm.
Gaslight, gatekeep, Gorthaur 😂😂😂 excellent summary of Sauron as tempter!
Tempter and liar.
Every time I read the Lost Road, I feel certain if Tolkien had finished it he would have out-Orwelled Orwell. His understanding of man’s nature was profound, even if he tended to shy away from really diving into it the way Lewis does in the Screwtape Letters.
I'm sure that Sauron had all sorts of plans for how he was going to use the remaining Númenoreans to conquer Middle-Earth. Imagine his shock when he realized that the entire world was splitting apart right where Númenor and he were. He must have known only Ilúvatar had that kind of power.
The ultimate "OOPS" moment.
Valar: Is it of folly or ignorance that thou hast defied the Ban?
Amandil: See what had happened was...
I very much and thoroughly enjoyed the video. thank you!
I was looking forward to this so much and you did not disappoint! My country just re-elected Morgoth so hopefully we'll find a way to preserve what's worth saving and find our way back to the light.
Incredible. Trump is Morgoth?!😱😂🤣😆
Trump is an Istar sent by Eru to the USA in order to gather a coalition of people to fight against an invasion, censorship, tyranny, lawfare, and gender theory in our school system.
I guess you must like all those things if you voted for Kamala.
I forgot about fighting inflation by freeing up American energy on a huge scale. Also he will force foreign countries to build factories in the US, creating hundreds of thousands of new high-paying jobs for Americans.
@@Enerdhil lolwut
The U.S. president doesn't have that power over other countries. He doesn't even have that power over his own country.
Where did you get that idea?
@Disgruntled_Dave
Tarrifs are Trump's preferred weapon to beat foreign countries into submission. That is how he will crush the BRICS movement and save the dollar as the world's dominant currency.
Tracking and other kinds of drilling will release the petroleum and natural gas under the country. The massive supply will drive prices for both way down, making production and shipping much cheaper, driving DOWN prices. The petroleum and natural gas will be so abundant that the US will be able to export to all our allies, driving their prices down, too. That is the plan. We will have to see whether or not it works.
@@Disgruntled_Dave
Also, the Republicans control all three branches of government, so they have no excuse for not doing what they promised Americans they would do. The pressures on, boys and girls! 2026 primaries are coming sooner than you think!!
Lovely series.
I would also love to see your take on the founding of Arnor and Gondor.
Thank you for emphasizing Amandil! While not entirely unsung, he certainly deserves more attention.
Yes. We don't know how Isildur knew that Nimloth would be cut down soon. It could have been Amandil or Míriel who told him.
My excitement peaked when I saw this video in my feed, thank you for your dedication! 😁
Eru: DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE YOUNG MAN(kind)
So happy to see a post! Now, to the actual material... =D
Thanks!
I was waiting for it 👍
SHES BACK BABY
If Sauron hadn't convinced the Numenoreans to attack Valinor, Sauron night have been able to reign in Numenor as the Power behind the throne indefinately.
yhe, he was childless and miriel not so likley to give him one. I guess the biggest problem was ar pharazon. The understanding seems to have been that sauron was making him imortal. and with his death aproaching he would want to cash in. but then again. he would have been a great candidate for a nazgûl and sauron could have ruled numenor through him.
guess it comes down to his pride. if you completely turn the edain against eru, you have to show it off alittle bit
Eventually.... yes.
Hell, Sauron could probably have impersonated Ar-Pharazon since he hadn't lost his ability to shapeshift yet! He'd have to find a way to get rid of the real Pharazon, of course, but that should be a minor inconvenience for Sauron after establishing trust with the king.
@Disgruntled_Dave
How would the new Ar-Pharazôn explain a missing Sauron, or would he play both parts?🤔
It's an interesting 'what if' scenario to think about what if Sauron had persuaded Ar-Pharazon that he could gain immortality by conquering the Elves in Middle-Earth.
Great video, as always.
6:12 Making grandiose promises and exaggerated claims that are starkly in contrast to the established morals of the land, in order to divide the people and make it easier to label each other as "enemies." What a sneaky and underhanded, yet fascinating trick!
@@Disgruntled_Dave topical!
Sauron sacrificed human life for vanity...Just like some Americans do now
@@Disgruntled_Dave , Make Armenelos Great Again.
It's Marxism 101.
@Captain_Insano_nomercy
I think sacrificing the Faithful was Sauton's way of showing his power over Men. If you are willing to kill another person for someone, there is nothing you won't be willing to do.
The last section with the valar giving signs sounds biblical
Insightful deep dive as always, thank you!
Also, smooth side-step of the issue of flat v round world when Eru does the continental rearrangement :-)
Nothing to see here, folks.🙄
Thanks lexi ,
I feel like the “finding/exploring/colonizing new lands, and making whole new worlds” angle in the downfall is very much underemphasized in most discussions.
Infinte growth, anyone? 😄
Do you mean when Elros Tar-Minyatur was king?
The first few centuries must have been rough because building the infrastructure of the island nation must have been very challenging.
@@Enerdhil As the video mentions, it was the second half of Sauron's temptation and promise to Ar Pharazon, along with immortality
@@ghostdreamer7272
Oh. Okay. I misunderstood your post.😅
Wonderful work as ever
I don't think that The Lost Road fragment was talking about Númenor; or rather the Númenor that we nowadays consider part of the legendarium. Númenor never grew to be similar to an early industrial age power, nor did it achieve steam boats or skyscrapers. I think it's just one of those ideas Tolkien had of connecting industrial progress with decadence.
Until the day it screens, I will have estel will see Sauron being hit by lightning on top of the temple in Rings of Power with the people falling down and worshipping him. A fool's hope, perhaps.
...holy CRAP! I'd never heard about that last, for want of a better term, industrialized age of Numenor. the close up art of the monstrous metal ships was nauseating when you bring to mind the luminous early beauty of their ships and architecture 😢 Sauron's final phase of corruptive desecration was far more thorough than I could have imagined 🤮😩😭
Considering the current direction of the US as directed by one it's greatest con men, I'd say this video is well timed. Nicely done!!
Trump/Vance 2024 win, Baby!! 🇺🇸✝️🙏👍😁
GnG finally dropped a new vid hell yes! Utúlie’n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlië’n aurë!
Appreciate the content, keep em coming homie
For what happened when Pharazon reached Aman to be anything other than pure speculation, there are really only 6 possible sources, right? Glorfindel or one of the Istari? No one else travels from Valinor to Middle Earth after this happens that I know of. Maybe someone could have mimed it at that one Palantir that sees into Tol Eressea?
05:15 The real truth behind Sauron's basing his manipulations and attempts on Melkor comes from his knowledge that Melkor's spiritual power has spread to Arda and his awareness that this is the driving force behind his ideals. The real meaning of inheriting the corrupted Arda from Melkor is that he provides momentum from the will that forms the basis of this spiritual power. The reason why he established the Melkor cult instead of his own name when he came to Númenor is a concrete example of this.
Morgoth's Ring. 🤔
How does Elendil know what happens to Tar-Miriel and Ar-Pharazon when he wrote the Akallabeth? The only thing that makes sense is he saw them through the Palantir of the tower hills. Thoughts?
Eagle post?
Poor Hamish... getting sacrificed to Morgoth. ☹️. Guy can't catch a break.
Any idea where the palantíri fit into this story? Apparently these were given to the Faithful (or to Amandil) at or after the time when ship travel between Aman and Numenor ceased, and one of them was tuned to an eighth stone that was kept in Tol Eressea. Yet communication by that channel is never mentioned, and when Amandil wants to appeal directly to the Valar he never seems to think of contacting them by that means but considers a sea voyage to be his only possible option. I have my own idea about this in my never-finished fanfic, but can you come up with an explanation based on Tolkien's own works?
The rhyme of lore that Gandalf mumbles indicates that the seven stones were all in the keeping of the Faithful by the time of the Downfall. But that need not have been the case all the time. The King's Men may have used one palantír (or several) to keep an eye on what the other stones were doing, and perhaps one or more stones perished with Númenor. Or perhaps someone 'liberated' the last ones after the fleet had sailed for Aman.
But it seems the one kept at Tol Eressëa did not communicate with the others. At least, I don't know of any time that it did. Maybe it could, if someone cared to use it, but some sense of propriety may have prevented this. Whether it was the royal ban on communication with the Eldar, or the stones were given with the understanding that they were meant to communicate with each other.
Personally, I think the Ban of the Valar extended to communication via the palantíri, and so there was nobody expecting Amandil's call at the other end when he decided he had to break it.
I think there is a Palantir in one of the White Towers west of the Shire that can see to the Undying lands.
@@EriktheRed2023
Makes sense.
32 seconds fresh
Oh ye happy few!
Has anyone checked on Pharazon and the boys this Age? How is being "Lord of the West" going these days? After 10,000 years or so does regret start to taste like chicken? I've always wondered if the boys from Numenor are sleeping las in Sheol, or if Eru gave these naughty, naughty Children what they wanted in spades. The life of the firstborn, tied to Arda for as long as it exists forgotten, in a cave, in the Dark for forever, or there about.
Ar-Pharazôn and his men are buried alive, but we have no clue what that looks like. Can they move around? Can they talk to each other? Are they always hungry and thirsty and sleepy, but never able to eat, drink, or sleep?
A Purgatory where for 24/7 you are stuck with your own thoughts and sins for millennia.
We're getting to the undying lands with this one😩🚣
🎉
I miss when we were a squad. 😔
I think Ar-Pharazôn and his men were buried alive in some kind of purgatory until the Dagor Dagoroth.
Let her cook as usual. Two Thumbs up!
That was great. But what I'd like to know is how Sauron managed to take the ring with him back to Middle Earth in his non-corporeal, amorphous form after the destruction of Numenor.
Tolkien wrote in Letter #211 "[Sauron] naturally had the One [in Númenor], and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans."
Later in the same Letter he writes, "though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggles at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating mi is now largely depended."
So as the Good Professor said, Don't boggle your mind over it.😅
First I'm hearing of Sauron possibly needing to improvise on his capture. I would've thought he could've folded Númenor like laundry. One of Tolkien's vacillations on minor plot details?
I'd nay not, personally. Sauron saw the power of Numenor and immediately changed tack. He knew he couldn't defeat them conventionally as a point of fact, so he went the deception/corruption route. Not that he wasn't powerful, it's just that Numenor was extremely powerful as well.
If he was that powerful, he would have overrun Middle-Earth long before. Indeed, Morgoth would have swatted the Elves in Beleriand like flies as soon as he returned.
I mean since the sources are written by Elves or Men they can really only speculate. Even saying that he never thought Pharazon would succeed is just a guess, though a likely one. Since the whole thing was a con from beginning to end from a source that confided in no one there's no real information. Even the belief that he couldn't have resisted Pharazon's army is just speculation. His first plan was "control the Elves". So maybe when he sees Numenor, seemingly more powerful then the Elves and dumber than a bag of rocks he just went back to plan A.
❤ great video, as always!
I was wondering, did Sauton leave the one ring in Mordor when he went to Numenor?! Because if he took it with him, how did he manage to bring it back?! Did i miss something?! 😅
You can easily find ghost stories and the like where they are at times able to affect physical objects. Given that we are talking about a powerful Maia and an object infused with much of his own power, I find it very plausible that he carried it away.
@istari0
Sauron the Poltergeist.🙄
Please tell me are going to continue this series through the war of the last alliance?!
Make Numenor Great Again
I'm gonna guess "badly".
I want to know how Sauron salvaged the ring when he lost his body in Numenor. If he has the power to teleport it with his mind, why didn't he just teleport it to himself when it was lost?
I don't think he teleported it. Even in his spirit form, he was powerful enough (and keep in mind the One Ring was infused with much of Sauron's power so there was a close link between Sauron and the ring) to carry it back to Middle-Earth.
@@istari0 It doesn't make sense to me. If he was powerful enough and controlled enough in his disembodied state to transport the ring back to Middle Earth, then I would think he would be more capable in his re-embodied state to call it to himself. I mean "carry" it with what? He didn't have a body, therefore no hands to carry it. It would have to be some kind of telekinesis with a completely disembodied mind.
@@Cat_Woods Well, there are some thoughts on the matter. From Tolkien, there's two quotes from letter 211 I want to mention:
1: "You cannot press the One Ring too hard, for it is of course a mythical feature, even though the world of the tales is conceived in more or less historical terms."
2: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring".
With regards to telekinesis, think of Gandalf and the Balrog striving over a door in Moria. They do not need to touch it to do so, and between them they cause the ceiling to cave in. Another option than that: some sea creature under Sauron's domination carried it for him. This sort of thing was mentioned by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond as a worry of throwing the Ring in the sea.
Other methods could be thought of, I expect. Think about the importance of possession of a Ring of Power. Not just being near it or handling it for a moment, but claiming it. With nobody knowing of the Ring (and everyone busy drowning anyway), nobody would have removed the Ring from Sauron's possession as Isildur did. With it, he was able to recorporate relatively quickly, perhaps using it as a starting point. The One Ring is Sauron's even more than any body he ever had, as @istari0 hints at above.
@@EriktheRed2023 Thank you. That is helpful.
If Tolkien had not said that Sauron had the Ring in Numenor, I would've thought that he left it in Barad-dûr because frankly I don't believe he needed it to conquer the minds of the Númenorians.
Nevertheless, somehow Sauron's ëala has to fly back to Barad-dûr carrying the One Ring. Tolkien said it wasn't a big deal, which tells me that the language expert didn't understand physics. It really doesn't matter if it could work in the real world or not.
But if Sauron's ëala could escape from Númenor with the One Ring, why couldn't it escape from the foothills of Orodruin, where his dead fana lay before Isildur cut the Ring from his finger? You can't say yes this time and no that time because you said so. That is what the M.F.s at Amazon's RoP do. Yet that is what Tolkien told us happened.😔
Haha, I never noticed Turin Turambar playing the bass guitar in your end card XD Which got me thinking: Could the lead singer be Galadriel? And who is the keyboarder then? The drummer is you, Lexi, right? Do you actually play the drums?
I think Luthien was the GOAT singer. Sauron will never admit it, but it's true.
Melkorism is a religion of peace. 😉
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
In the band, who are the vocalist and keyboardist?
Finrod and Maglor.
@@annafdd Annon allen!
you're a sight for sore eyes after RoP and Tolkien "professor" there is no canon
🧐👍
Lexi, thank you. As an actual scholar myself, and a Tolkien adherent for more than 30 years: I truly appreciate your meticulous understanding of Tolkien. You, Matt at NOTR, Robert at IDG are my happy places. I would be privileged if you every wanted to communicate with me.
If there was a proper television show of the second age Amondil would b the only one who could play politics as deftly as sauron. Would luv to see something as simple as a conversation between the 2 of them😮
The Rings of Power hasn't shown Amandil or Anárion.🙄
@Enerdhil somehow, sadly, I don't think they will either. I think they're too caught up in taking Galadriel to the battle of the last Alliance. Same with celeborn
@@danieldeclue1466
Celeborn will make his debut right before he goes into War of the Last Alliance.😔
@Enerdhil and probably die there so her and sauron can get a kiss in b4 he dies too🤣
I don't see the big issue that everyone has with Morgoth worship and the temples built to honor him
I concur, the poor fellow is just misunderstood, that's all.
Excuse me, it's _Melkor._ M*rg*th is a hurtful Elvish slur.
@@tathemrelag3123
How about Melko?