Tech Talk 13: Line Source AND Line Array Loudspeakers
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.พ. 2020
- In this episode, Danny Richie tackles the topic of Line Source and Line Array Loudspeakers! What Audiophiles need to know!
Check out our site: www.gr-research.com
Contact: info@gr-research.com 1-940-592-3400
Great presentation to understand arrays! A goldmine of information .
Thank you
Thank you for explanation. Never knew about different gain on low and high fr in Line source.
Great video, Real wealth of knowledge, esay to understand explanations. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you, I always learn with your videos!
awesome video
Super interesting. Thanks for this video!
The neat bit about line sources is that although they aren't more efficient, they roll off in volume at half the rate the inverse square law would indicate.
So a quieter volume fills the space more evenly from front to back
Thanks Danny fascinating, now I know where I am going wrong with my set up.
That outlet needs a cover man!
Hi Danny,
New subscriber to your channel. Terrific tutorials for those inclined to better understand some of the technical aspects of audio.
Any commentary or observations apropos to the Dali MegaLine III loudspeaker? Thanks.
What are your thoughts on the Gilmore Audio speakers?
wow.. 7 seconds into it there is Joe Elliot of Def Leppard helping Danny... awesome...
Hello Danny could you at one point show some measurements of the line sources and show how you designed the crossover? I am planning to make a pair my self but I just cant visualize the responses you are talking about.
Will the line source speaker be avaialbe as a kit?
Just so I understand, the Noise in this video is the Preamp Noise? Or is that noise that's in the room that the ear normally blocks out? Seems like Preamp noise of the Microphone.
Hello Danny, I realize that the Line Array speakers are best placed out from the rear walls into a listening space. What about tyour Line Source speakers? In my example they would be placed 24" from my rear wall and would be 7 feet apart from inner edge to inner edge, and the liner would be 11' to 11'6" away from the fronts of these speakers. Would this work in my room, and if so what Servo sub(s) of your do you recommend? I like this type of speakers as I recently had an opportunity to listen to a portable PA system made by Bose called an L1 Pro32 which uses 32 of the Bose "cricket drivers" or some similar driver and it the pair I listed to were used with a pair of the Bose Sub1's subwoofers. I was able to place my ear to the speakers it it wasn't loud at all but they really projected the sound with surprising clarity and SPL levels at a considerable distance in the hall I was in that was approximately a 100' back from the stage area where the speakers were placed. It was obvious that those speakers could fill a much larger room, with ease. I suspect the same can be said for your Line source speakers. I'm very interested in these, especially after watching a few other videos where you discuss them including with others. I really like that the speakers are extremely efficient and can be powered off grid with battery power so I can have my music along with me at hunting camp or while fishing...lol. Seriously though, I'm fascinated by your speakers and would like a pair for myself if they would work in my current listening space. Thanks again Danny!
So what happens if you give the baffle a C shape or bowl shape so that all drivers are the same distance from your ears?
Good lord this is educational
Can you give us an estimate for your line source speaker kit ? (The one with the ribbon tweeters)
They're not ribbons
do you guys deliver to canada
Hi! I love this video! Thank you. What do you think of the now discontinued Anthony Gallo Reference 5ls? At first glance I thought it didnt make any sense to arrange the mid and almost-omni CDT tweeter (low vertical dispersion pattern) in an alternate fashion but after watching your video I started to change my idea about that. I would like to hear your view. Thank you in advance.🙏
Oh, those were a disaster. The tweeters were spaced way too far apart and caused a LOT of comb filtering.
Please do a video on transmission line enclosures.🙏🙏🙏🙏
The space between the HF drivers on this Ribon Line speakers , is not 1 inch best spacing , the perfect spacing depends on the distance to the listener . If you are further away drivers can be further away , if you are closer drivers need to be closer . Until we get to headphones where it practically needs to be one driver , can be more but there are problems of interference because one driver uses up the air , so now you dont have any more free air , non vibrating air to perfectly transmit your other drivers , so problem build up real fast .
So the reasoning is if you are say 2-3meters away then 1inch or around
On the Line Array speaker, with the 8 bass drivers, do they avoid the floor cancellation, or just reduce them?
It depends on the wavelength. At lower ranges the output spreads out vertically and couples with the ceiling and floor reflection. As frequency increases that is not the case.
@@dannyrichie9743 Right, that makes sense. The woofers closer to the floor / ceiling have higher frequencies getting canceled due to reflection off the surfaces, and the farther you get from a surface, the lower the frequency of the cancellation. SO, the average response is going to be more even.
I wonder what Paul would think on your explanation of the IRS Beta which does not have 1" dome tweeters it's all ribbon. Arnie Nudell was a genius and those wings on the IRS were incredible so not sure what you're talking about???
Pretty accurate explanation, at least in my experience when designing true ribbon 6ft line driver system, it is exactly as you describe it, specially far-near interaction and floor-ceiling beaming, which results in great sound in small "live" rooms... Also since efficiency is so high, distortion is super low, i know you don't like to talk about distortion which is weird to me since you care about cables and crossover part properties, binding posts and such details (as you should)...
I could be that distortion can be viewed as a symptom when having everything else good and not the main cause of the others being good. So when a product is great it just happens to have low distortion.
Any way we can crowdfund recreating the NEO10s again or soemthing even better? - Mike
It's a bit of an oversimplification to say that speakers beam above wavelength
Awesome video Danny!
You look like top goal scorer on the speakers team 😉
Seriously, how are these Nxtremes to drive?
Would we need lot of power to drive these to their best potential?
How low will these Nxtremes drive in mid size room 16 x 20 with 12ft ceiling and kept 3 feet off the wall and 9feet apart along 16ft wall.... Will sub be a must ?
The NX-Treme's are easy to drive. We drive them to good levels using a 9 watt 300B amp and a 10 watt chip amp.
In your room a -3db down point in the upper 40's to mid 50's is common.
They are designed to be used with the open baffle servo subs.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thabks Danny , after things get back to normal around us I maybe interested im these....
Do you think REL push pull 2 x 10 inch sub placed in the corner with lots of acoustic boost from this placement would not be a good match in such room?
REL subs are connected to speaker output of the amp so it get same sonic character of the lows as speakers for much better match to the speakers... ???
@@kdomster9141 It is not a matter of sonic character. And those are more expensive than our servo subs. And our servo subs are full open baffle just like the rest of the speaker. So the radiation pattern matches and they won't overload the room and cause room boom.
@@dannyrichie9743 How are your servo subs powered? Should those be also placed in corners to gain boost from the room?
How low (Hz) do these open baffle subs go?
@@kdomster9141 They are powered by servo controlled amps.
gr-research.com/diysubwooferkits.aspx
They do not need to be placed in the corners of the rooms. Place them where they cause the least amount of room boom. Our open baffle models can be placed well out into the room.
And our open baffle servo subs will play flat to 20Hz and hit -3db down levels in the teens.
You could get up and show us the speakers ! That would have been nice !
U meant 13.5k for the 1 incher right?
Gineous !!!!!!!
I would love the NEO array, but it's way too high for my usage, maybe a 2 x NEO 10 and 6 x NEO 3 with maybe some active subwoofer beside that. :-)
There are minimal lengths required for the near field/far field transitions to work out properly. You can't get there with short lines. You just wind up with comb filtering issues.
@@dannyrichie9743 Okay very interesting, this is why your speaker and i.e. the genesis is that high. Would a small video abut such special things be interesting to make?
@@friedmule5403 I'll consider doing a video on that one one of these days. I need another line source in here to use an an example.
Danny, I'm confused by your definitions. You describe a line array as a point source speaker, so frequencies aren't shared by drivers. You describe a line source as one tall driver, so frequencies are shared by drivers. Online definitions are different. They describe a line array as a near line source, while a line source is the theoretical ideal (a one-dimensional line). Please clarify.
No mention of Don Keele's CBT array ? Read all about it here : www.linkwitzlab.com/Keele%20-%20Introduction%20to%20CBT%20Loudspeaker%20Arrays.pdf
or here : www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php
why not make the line force panel from MDF glued to some Birch plywood? this could be a home build if the plans are available. We'd just need to Route out the holes with a router using ball bearing trim bit routers using a small template that would have to be re-positioned for each hole after maybe first roughing out each driver hole with a Jigsaw between 4 round corner holes made with a drill bit. I'm sure I could do it.
That material was not near strong enough to have that much removed from them and still have any structural strength.
I will stick with my 6 bose 901s running at 2.4 kwatts
SMH
If you like “that kind of sound”, you’d find them bettered by eg good open baffles, omnis eg Ohms, or box speakers with wide dispersion eg LSAs.
It Bothers me that you make up terms settling time is what I refer to it’s what I would refer to as a step response which is much clearer as well
It is kind of the same thing but not entirely. Step response is about a drivers impulse response characteristics, I believe Danny uses the term 'settling time' to emphasise that he is referring to a speakers ability to recover from, or avoid, stored energy resonance... but besides that, I don't see anything wrong with dispensing with engineering jargon and using more intuitive terms for the purposes of explaining a principle to amateur enthusiasts.
@@markwilding3828 yes but ii think that it clouds the issue to have multiple definitions of the same effect
@@harryconover289 I don't know about that... Using the term step response could be misleading in this context. I think 'Impulse response' when I hear that term and there is a broader implication in that term, and it's not really about that. I quite like 'settling time' It is not an engineering blog and I think more people will intuitively understand his meaning... as you obviously did. What is in your system? Are you building speakers?
@@markwilding3828 it just is semantics the effect is the same it’s just you want to talk to others
@@harryconover289 Another interesting theory that may or may not be true. Although, when I am seeking conversation, I tend to look for interesting people with positive cheerful dispositions.
🙋❤️👍
Did you mean to say run a 12" to 1000hz and 10" to 1300hz?
I had the same question. But we know that his crossover points for 6-inch drivers are often near 200 Hz. What have you learned since you posted this question; did you look for the answer?
@@nickburak7518 It know it's an answer to an old question, but in case you didn't find the answer yet. It has to do with the angle that that driver play to. So at low frequencies it will play 360 degrees and dependent on the diameter of the driver it will start to only play forwards at higher frequencies. And you can calculate it for every driver size.
@@maxb.simonsen2459 Hey Max. Thanks for the reply (it's always nice when anyone replies). First of all, it's a timeless question - we're all at different levels. No? But I can't remember why I asked him that question. 🤔 Maybe I would have suggested the same that you did. Now it's here if he pops in. Where'd Mark go? Anyway. I'm aware of the calculations, especially that sub frequencies are 360°.
For me, what's new - in case you weren't wondering - kidding, is room acoustics. I've started working on the sound space and I cannot say enough about the importance of it. They often say that it's 50% of the factor (some even saying it's the most important thing). I know that this isn't part of what Danny is all about in this channel, but after maximizing the speaker and cabinet combo potential, it's the next step imo. I have an old but good AVR, and I'm quite pleased with what I'm getting. The bass nodes are getting under control and the soundstage and imaging are improving. Have you treated your room? Thanks.
@@nickburak7518 I agree with the room part, but when you live in a small 2 room apartment with someone else, I can't really do the things I would want to since I don't have the space for it.
@@maxb.simonsen2459 Tell me about it! It's exactly the same for me, too. I have 750 sq. ft. apartment. It doesn't take much to fill a small apartment, eh? We're not minimalists. Wall space is pretty much taken up by cabinets, bookshelves, desk, plants, frames, etc., so there's no space for rear bass traps. Of course there is the "wife/gf/roommate approval" factor, but still I think at least a pair of acoustic panels at the first reflection point could fit most places (it made a difference for me). Mine has an art fabric as the presentation layer.
But fore the main issue is the neighbours below. Presently I can't play my system much past 70 dB (about 9 am maximum on the old analog volume dial). That's maybe -40 to -35 dB on a digital volume? But the good thing is that acoustic treatments can follow you on to your next place, so it's no loss.
So with regard to dealing with bass transmission to the neighbours below, I'm building a 48" deep by 96" wide bass-trap platform on casters for my entire rig (the speakers, audio stand, TV, etc.) in order to decouple the bass from the floor. It'll establish a 9" absorption gap. I've got a 4" layer of insulation sandwiched by two layers of cork and 3/4 mdf, plus the gap (air gaps help) the castors bring. The use of casters also means that I can move it out from the wall easily when I need access to the back (who doesn't?), if even for occasional vacuuming. All in all it should help to disconnect the bass transmission to floor by maybe as much as 50%. While that's significant it will have a greater impact within my space. It will also raise the soundstage, which helps in movies and is generally perfect for me because I also enjoy the music standing up, walking about the place, whatever. Even Steven Gutenberg (the Audiophiliac) likes it like that. To each their own. At the back but on the platform, behind the speakers, it will have a pair of 6 foot tall, 24"w x 10"d bass traps, which will really help in the living room space (just 300 sq. ft.). It should also serve to give it a nice aesthetic that even the other half may like. I have these cool red dome lights that would look appealing on them.
So where can we buy that delicious looking pair of speakers 😜
That mullet!!! EPIC!!!
lol its EARY
When will they be available for sell? And who is your daddy, and what does he do?