Thanks for this! The part about how church service tears families apart was so validating (1:07). This is EXACTLY why I left the church about 30 years ago….. and I’ve sometimes wondered if it was because I was too selfish. I just wanted my husband to be able to show up for me and the kids when we really needed him. The church doesn’t see it that way, at all! They just want couples to give give GIVE all they have to the church. And that includes all of their time. So sad! Our life was much more full and beautiful after getting out of the rat race!
I served in ward leadership positions for 13 straight years in my 20s and 30s. The last two as bishop's counselor. I resigned from that at age 34. There was so much negativity from dealing with those people and their issues that it was affecting me and my own family. In the mid-'80s, the church announced that names of wards would be changed from numbers to ones that reflected the area, such as geographical location. We were in bishopric meeting one Sunday discussing what new name to call our ward. Considering how many nutty people we had, I jokingly suggested that we call it the Lockup Ward. That brought a chuckle from everybody else in the room. It was funny because it was true. My family's life vastly improved when we stopped attending the LDS church. No more having to get four kids ready for church on Sunday mornings. No more dad having to go to leadership meetings an hour or two earlier, and mom having to get the kids ready by herself. No more having to give 10% of our hard earned money to the church, when we were just a middle class, blue collar household. If you have four kids and a house payment, you have to make close to a six figure income to be a "temple worthy" Mormon. And that was back in the '80s. I was just a plumber, making an average income. No more having to deal with a bunch of other people and their petty problems. Since we left that church, I've often said that there were very few people in our ward that we would be friends with if we didn't happen to go to church together.
Glad I found your Chanel. I've been deconstructing for 5yrs, grew up in UT and a member si once I was 9yr old, served a mission and was a TBM until I started doing g a deep dive into church history, the BOM and the BoA. Great podcast.
Bishop Hinkley, and all of the fine Bishops in this episode - what a breath of fresh air it was being able to listen to the four of you speak so sincerely, honestly and candidly about your experiences in the church. I could listen to you all of you talk every night - this was so enjoyable, humorous, and relatable. Nathan, I love your channel and I’m so glad you’re here in this space. Thank you 🙏 I’ll be sure to catch you live next time!
Thank you each for sharing the TRUTH ❤️ from a 85 year old Woman who has had my name removed from the VP Mormon CRAP after doing it All to save myself “ I’m Free after 67 years !!!
As an avid geneologist for44 years ,I have 134,000 waiting for temple work.After leaving the church and listening to Mormon stories I realise what a waste of time it all was. We even baptised all the babies from other churches records along with marriages and deaths( how arrogant to say they needed redoing in the Mormon,LDS way. 5 hours minimum for each person. As Huge Nibley says Sin in waste. It's doing one thing when you could be doing other and more important things for which you have the capacity . From the timely and the timeless. Good luck ExBishops in following what you have the capacity to do.
The whole "proxy work for the dead" thing is a huge, useless waste of time and resources. I'll share a couple of reasons why: We've all heard that in order to do the proxy ordinances for dead people, the information has to be correct---name, birthdate, etc. The church's genealogical department prides itself on collecting that info and getting it all correct. However, in 1978, I went to the temple, and did a session of the "initiatory ordinances"---the ones where you sit in a chair, holding a list of dead people's names, and an old temple worker repeats the same words over each one of them. The list I had were names from the 17th or 18th century. On about half of them, the first name was "Mister." At the time, I just assumed that "Mister" must have been a popular name to give boys in that place and era. But later, it dawned on me that that name was used because the submitter couldn't find the actual names. So that told me that the whole thing was bogus. How could a dead person get into the celestial kingdom if his "proxy" didn't state his actual name in the ordinance? Shortly after I left the church, I was discussing this with another Ex-Mormon. He told me that he did the same proxy work thing, and a lot of the first names on his list were simply "Juan." They were Hispanic surnames, and whoever submitted them obviously couldn't identify their actual first names, so he just sent them in as "Juan." The church boasts about all of the new temples they've built, and how that helps the "proxy work for the dead" to go forth. One of my nieces recently wrote a FB post talking about the new Tallahassee temple and how she was excited to go there and join in on the great work of "salvation for the dead." And the whole things is 100% nonsense. The real purpose of building all of those new temples is that tithing revenues increase in those areas. It's all just another one of the church's money-making schemes.
Loved this❤ you guys are awesome. Thanks for the laughs and the honesty. My last experience with my bishop did not go well , so this was fantastic. I wish every active bishop could hear this.
How can we follow these guys? Tik tok, TH-cam, Instagram? Great interview. I actually just told my wife about my feelings about the church. It was so freeing. Sadly she doesn't feel the same as me. We are agreeing to disagree. You guys help more people than you know. Thank you,l for being willing to share.
First of all I LOVED this episode. Second of all I’m trying to decide if bishop jones is actually the same guy from the Mormon stories interview a year ago?!? 🤯 they seem like 2 different men. Have you watch Alyssa Grenfell’s episode on her Mormon self vs now? Maybe bishop jones should watch that one and see what he thinks 😄. I resonate with hinkley bc I tried so hard to be by the books too and wish I had done more NOT by the books, as a missionary and in my personal life. I love the quote the bottom Nathan has in his work out space. I loved the stories. Keep up the good work
We live outside of UT, TG!! Psych patient, she didn't know, told our kid they were Joe Smith's favorite wife on 1st day of psych clinicals. WTH?! THEY KNOW!
Did you all feel like you had autonomy to exercise discernment in making decisions over your wards or did you feel like you had to be yes men to your stake presidencies?
When they talked about tithing, phew, it’s wild that if you don’t pay it you can’t participate in the temple and you’re looked down upon. As someone that has left, I think of the time that we were a young married couple with a baby and we couldn’t pay rent, buy groceries, etc… but did we pay tithing? Freaking ALWAYS. I hate that we were that brainwashed that we were blindly following and giving to a deceitful organization in the name of our “faith” and always paid that 10% first. If I knew what I know now…🤪
I’m not saying these gentlemen didn’t have testimonies or weren’t faithful but i don’t think they were “churchbroke.” If a Bishop in Provo, Utah goes awol, you’re a pariah and your life is over. If you’re in Tennessee at least you have a chance at normalcy. Loved, loved, loved this episode!!
Ya'll did what you thought was right. We all do. We just did what we were "supposed to do". Be kinder to your former selves. I said and did some stupid 'canned cause we were programmed to' shit that I regret.
I also served as a Bishop during COVID . It was the most challenging thing I have ever been a part off and at the same time my work was on overdrive because I was working as a Postmaster and our package delivers increased by 1/2 million over 4 years. My first month on I got a letter from a Sister wanting her name removed because of the Gospel Essays. This was the first I heard of the things talking about especially when it came to Joseph Smith and polygamy. I’m still in the camp that he didn’t practice it and that Brigham Young began the practice. But hear it is on the LDS website saying he did this. I did watch an interesting take supporting the Joseph was fighting against it and after his death Brigham implemented the practice. This actually lined up with what President Hinkley said on Larry King. Also there isn’t any DNA evidence connecting children to Joseph and if that’s true then he was a terrible polygamist compared to Young and the rest of them. At any rate it’s a problem. Brigham did a lot of very questionable stuff. I like the channel because as a Southerner it’s always been difficult being in the church and it’s just different than being out in Utah. I also think the ban on baptizing my Southern brothers and sisters that drink sweet tea is so ridiculous. I also feel like the church in the south is an afterthought to the leadership. I’m not ready to leave the church over it but it certainly has changed things in my mind. I do love the members of the Ward I served. When it came to interviewing youth when I got to the Chasity question I always encouraged the youth to have this conversation with their parent or a trusted loved one. also if any YM come in with shame of looking at P I would tell them to hold up there head up and know that our Savior has love and grace with this sort of stuff and to move forward. No way we should be beating up on a young person but instead help lift them up so they can have confidence in the atonement. I tried my best to avoid being a handbook Bishop but will admit that the first year I looked up a lot of stuff then after that I just we t with the impression that I would get on how to deal with a issue. The handbook changes every other week.
"I’m still in the camp that he didn’t practice it and that Brigham Young began the practice." I've studied the history of Mormon polygamy for 28 years. Let me assure you that Joseph Smith did indeed originate it and practice it. About 130 people in Nauvoo had heard about polygamy during Joseph's lifetime, and every single one of them said that they learned it from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes the people who accepted polygamy and practiced it as well as those who opposed it and spoke out against it. Every serious, legitimate historian who has reasearched and published on ths issue beginning with Fawn Brodie's bio of Joseph Smith in 1946 concurs that Smith started it. These modern day "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" simply refuse to accept the facts, because they know that if Smith started polygamy, that that means that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. They want to keep believing in Joseph, so they put themselves into a state of denial of the facts. They posit that all of the 130 or so people who testified to Joseph's involvement in polygamy were liars or were misinformed. If you want to know the facts of this issue, I recommend that you start by reading the article "Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844" by historian Gary James Bergera. In that paper, you'll learn: "The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six."
" Also there isn’t any DNA evidence connecting children to Joseph and if that’s true then he was a terrible polygamist compared to Young and the rest of them." Whether or not Joseph Smith sired any children by any of his plural wives or not is immaterial to the evidence which proves that he originated and practiced polygamy. Several of his former plural wives testified in court that they had had sex with them. At least two women, who were married at the time, said that they didn't know whether a child of theirs was fathered by Smith or their legal husbands. So obviously, they were having sex with both Smith and their husbands when they became pregnant. In 1905, one of Joseph's former plural wives, Mary Rollins Lightner, was invited to speak at Brigham Young Academy because she was one of the last few living members who had been in the church from its beginnings, and because of her long and close relationship with Joseph Smith. For many years, she had been the Relief Society president in Minersville, Utah. In her remarks, Mary said: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." In addition, other Nauvoo church members whom Joseph inducted into polygamy in Nauvoo sired children by their plural wives. One example is William Clayton's matter-of-fact journal entries in which he recorded Joseph performing the plural sealing of Clayton to his wife's sister in 1842, and that woman bearing his child in 1843. So there was no question among plural marriage practitioners in Nauvoo that sexual relations and producing children were part of the plan. Another example is the memoir of Emily Partridge. She told in great detail of her and her sister's plural marriage to Smith in 1843, and of being sealed to Brigham Young after Joseph's death, and bearing his child: "Time went on, and the temple was finished. I received my annointing in the same way and again entered into plural marriage. According to the law of proxy, I became the wife of Brigham Young and received my blessings in the Temple at Nauvoo...While in Nauvoo, I had kept my child a secret, and only a few knew I had one. But after I started on my journey, it became publicly known, and people would stop at our house to see a “spiritual child,” and one told me years after that he was the handsomest child she had ever seen." So, Brigham Young didn't do anything after Joseph's death that Joseph himself wasn't doing. Several of Joseph's "plural widows" were sealed "by proxy" to Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, and other leaders, and that gave those men the "right" to have sex with those women and produce children with them. If Brigham had come up with plural marriage involving sexual relations instead of Joseph, all of those women would have considered the practice to be apostate and sinful, and they certainly would not have trekked 2000 miles into uncivilized territory to voluntarily live in polygamy. They would have left the church and stayed back east as many other polygamy opponents did. So this whole theory that Brigham started polygamy after Joseph's death does not comport with the known facts in any way.
"I’m still in the camp that he didn’t practice it and that Brigham Young began the practice." I've studied the history of Mormon polygamy for 28 years. Let me assure you that Joseph Smith did indeed originate it and practice it. About 130 people in Nauvoo had heard about polygamy during Joseph's lifetime, and every single one of them said that they learned it from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes the people who accepted polygamy and practiced it as well as those who opposed it and spoke out against it. Every serious, legitimate historian who has reasearched and published on ths issue beginning with Fawn Brodie's bio of Joseph Smith in 1946 concurs that Smith started it. These modern day "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" simply refuse to accept the facts, because they know that if Smith started polygamy, that that means that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. They want to keep believing in Joseph, so they put themselves into a state of denial of the facts. They posit that all of the 130 or so people who testified to Joseph's involvement in polygamy were liars or were misinformed. If you want to know the facts of this issue, I recommend that you start by reading the article "Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844" by historian Gary James Bergera. In that paper, you'll learn: "The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six."
" Also there isn’t any DNA evidence connecting children to Joseph and if that’s true then he was a terrible polygamist compared to Young and the rest of them." Whether or not Joseph Smith sired any children by any of his plural wives or not is immaterial to the evidence which proves that he originated and practiced polygamy. Several of his former plural wives testified in court that they had had sex with them. At least two women, who were married at the time, said that they didn't know whether a child of theirs was fathered by Smith or their legal husbands. So obviously, they were having sex with both Smith and their husbands when they became pregnant. In 1905, one of Joseph's former plural wives, Mary Rollins Lightner, was invited to speak at Brigham Young Academy because she was one of the last few living members who had been in the church from its beginnings, and because of her long and close relationship with Joseph Smith. For many years, she had been the Relief Society president in Minersville, Utah. In her remarks, Mary said: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." In addition, other Nauvoo church members whom Joseph inducted into polygamy in Nauvoo sired children by their plural wives. One example is William Clayton's matter-of-fact journal entries in which he recorded Joseph performing the plural sealing of Clayton to his wife's sister in 1842, and that woman bearing his child in 1843. So there was no question among plural marriage practitioners in Nauvoo that sexual relations and producing children were part of the plan. Another example is the memoir of Emily Partridge. She told in great detail of her and her sister's plural marriage to Smith in 1843, and of being sealed to Brigham Young after Joseph's death, and bearing his child: "Time went on, and the temple was finished. I received my annointing in the same way and again entered into plural marriage. According to the law of proxy, I became the wife of Brigham Young and received my blessings in the Temple at Nauvoo...While in Nauvoo, I had kept my child a secret, and only a few knew I had one. But after I started on my journey, it became publicly known, and people would stop at our house to see a “spiritual child,” and one told me years after that he was the handsomest child she had ever seen." So, Brigham Young didn't do anything after Joseph's death that Joseph himself wasn't doing. Several of Joseph's "plural widows" were sealed "by proxy" to Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, and other leaders, and that gave those men the "right" to have sex with those women and produce children with them. If Brigham had come up with plural marriage involving sexual relations against Joseph's teachings, all of those women would have considered the practice to be apostate and sinful, and they certainly would not have trekked 2000 miles into uncivilized territory to voluntarily live in polygamy. They would have left the church and stayed back east as many other polygamy opponents did. So this whole theory that Brigham started polygamy after Joseph's death does not comport with the known facts in any way.
Killer episode!! Fun, funny, authentic, and therapeutic for all of us.
Bishop Jones speaks exactly what my thoughts are! All these bishops are a treasure to watch 😎
Thanks for this!
The part about how church service tears families apart was so validating (1:07). This is EXACTLY why I left the church about 30 years ago….. and I’ve sometimes wondered if it was because I was too selfish. I just wanted my husband to be able to show up for me and the kids when we really needed him. The church doesn’t see it that way, at all!
They just want couples to give give GIVE all they have to the church. And that includes all of their time. So sad! Our life was much more full and beautiful after getting out of the rat race!
I served in ward leadership positions for 13 straight years in my 20s and 30s. The last two as bishop's counselor. I resigned from that at age 34. There was so much negativity from dealing with those people and their issues that it was affecting me and my own family.
In the mid-'80s, the church announced that names of wards would be changed from numbers to ones that reflected the area, such as geographical location. We were in bishopric meeting one Sunday discussing what new name to call our ward. Considering how many nutty people we had, I jokingly suggested that we call it the Lockup Ward. That brought a chuckle from everybody else in the room. It was funny because it was true.
My family's life vastly improved when we stopped attending the LDS church. No more having to get four kids ready for church on Sunday mornings. No more dad having to go to leadership meetings an hour or two earlier, and mom having to get the kids ready by herself. No more having to give 10% of our hard earned money to the church, when we were just a middle class, blue collar household. If you have four kids and a house payment, you have to make close to a six figure income to be a "temple worthy" Mormon. And that was back in the '80s. I was just a plumber, making an average income.
No more having to deal with a bunch of other people and their petty problems. Since we left that church, I've often said that there were very few people in our ward that we would be friends with if we didn't happen to go to church together.
i really appreciated hearing from all of you. I love the wisdom and the honesty. Much love to each of you. Thank you!
LOVE Love love hearing about everyone's DONE DAY!! Good on YOU!! You are enough. You are worthy! So proud of YOU!!
WHEEW! Bishop Jones's explanation of leaving the cult is So True!!!! Thank you Nathan for this episode
Glad I found your Chanel. I've been deconstructing for 5yrs, grew up in UT and a member si once I was 9yr old, served a mission and was a TBM until I started doing g a deep dive into church history, the BOM and the BoA. Great podcast.
Bishop Hinkley, and all of the fine Bishops in this episode - what a breath of fresh air it was being able to listen to the four of you speak so sincerely, honestly and candidly about your experiences in the church. I could listen to you all of you talk every night - this was so enjoyable, humorous, and relatable.
Nathan, I love your channel and I’m so glad you’re here in this space. Thank you 🙏
I’ll be sure to catch you live next time!
Absolutely amazing! The honesty of these gentlemen was so refreshing. Thanks to you all😊
I Needed these Bishops all in my life!!! Thank you Nathan Hinkley🥰🥲
LOVED this "both feet on the ground" conversation between the 4 of you. THANKS !!! Hugs from Denmark ❤
This just raised my spirt so high. All four of you. 👍🙏💜
Thank you each for sharing the TRUTH ❤️ from a 85 year old Woman who has had my name removed from the VP Mormon CRAP after doing it All to save myself “ I’m Free after 67 years !!!
Wow! Congratulations. I got free at age 60. It’s wonderful.
OMG This was great!Loved it every minute! So much fun, humour and perspective! ❤ Hugs from the UK😊
More please. Best Bishops fireside ever!!
As an avid geneologist for44 years ,I have 134,000 waiting for temple work.After leaving the church and listening to Mormon stories I realise what a waste of time it all was. We even baptised all the babies from other churches records along with marriages and deaths( how arrogant to say they needed redoing in the Mormon,LDS way. 5 hours minimum for each person. As Huge Nibley says Sin in waste. It's doing one thing when you could be doing other and more important things for which you have the capacity . From the timely and the timeless. Good luck ExBishops in following what you have the capacity to do.
Wow, incredible. Thank you for sharing
The whole "proxy work for the dead" thing is a huge, useless waste of time and resources. I'll share a couple of reasons why: We've all heard that in order to do the proxy ordinances for dead people, the information has to be correct---name, birthdate, etc. The church's genealogical department prides itself on collecting that info and getting it all correct. However, in 1978, I went to the temple, and did a session of the "initiatory ordinances"---the ones where you sit in a chair, holding a list of dead people's names, and an old temple worker repeats the same words over each one of them. The list I had were names from the 17th or 18th century. On about half of them, the first name was "Mister." At the time, I just assumed that "Mister" must have been a popular name to give boys in that place and era. But later, it dawned on me that that name was used because the submitter couldn't find the actual names. So that told me that the whole thing was bogus. How could a dead person get into the celestial kingdom if his "proxy" didn't state his actual name in the ordinance?
Shortly after I left the church, I was discussing this with another Ex-Mormon. He told me that he did the same proxy work thing, and a lot of the first names on his list were simply "Juan." They were Hispanic surnames, and whoever submitted them obviously couldn't identify their actual first names, so he just sent them in as "Juan."
The church boasts about all of the new temples they've built, and how that helps the "proxy work for the dead" to go forth. One of my nieces recently wrote a FB post talking about the new Tallahassee temple and how she was excited to go there and join in on the great work of "salvation for the dead." And the whole things is 100% nonsense. The real purpose of building all of those new temples is that tithing revenues increase in those areas. It's all just another one of the church's money-making schemes.
More of this!!
Loved this❤ you guys are awesome. Thanks for the laughs and the honesty. My last experience with my bishop did not go well , so this was fantastic. I wish every active bishop could hear this.
Great episode! Very cathartic to hear and see good men live normal non-LDS lives.
Great questions! Loved listening to all the answers! Great job!
Thank you all for your honesty! I appreciated every aspect of this conversation!
Awesome panel, brave men of real integrity.
This podcast was so AWESOME!!!!!!
This is a great episode!!
There is not too many things I would like see more than Bishop Jones in his excommunication meeting 😂🤣
You guys are awesome!!!
Welcome to FREEDOM
This was so good. Thanks Bishops 😂
Love any panel with people east of the River Sidon :)
Being south of the waters of Ripliankum is just a bonus!
Great show, guys. I hope you do it again!
Excellent show ExBishops!
I am a never Mormon but wow. This was amazing.
How can we follow these guys? Tik tok, TH-cam, Instagram? Great interview. I actually just told my wife about my feelings about the church. It was so freeing. Sadly she doesn't feel the same as me. We are agreeing to disagree. You guys help more people than you know. Thank you,l for being willing to share.
Now I finally get to hear what bishops REALLY think!!!
Don Suda is a genuine Dude👑
First of all I LOVED this episode. Second of all I’m trying to decide if bishop jones is actually the same guy from the Mormon stories interview a year ago?!? 🤯 they seem like 2 different men. Have you watch Alyssa Grenfell’s episode on her Mormon self vs now? Maybe bishop jones should watch that one and see what he thinks 😄. I resonate with hinkley bc I tried so hard to be by the books too and wish I had done more NOT by the books, as a missionary and in my personal life. I love the quote the bottom Nathan has in his work out space. I loved the stories. Keep up the good work
Great conversation! It would be interesting to know how your spiritual beliefs have changed since leaving mormonism.
We live outside of UT, TG!! Psych patient, she didn't know, told our kid they were Joe Smith's favorite wife on 1st day of psych clinicals. WTH?! THEY KNOW!
F*cking Amen Bishop Jones! 👏👏👏👏 "I don't read it is, I f*cking hate it!"🤣
Next level soul with Alex Ferrari looks into many beliefs .
To quote RFM, "There's no such thing as worthy"😂
AHahahaha this is the best meeting ever!!!😂🤣
Did you all feel like you had autonomy to exercise discernment in making decisions over your wards or did you feel like you had to be yes men to your stake presidencies?
When they talked about tithing, phew, it’s wild that if you don’t pay it you can’t participate in the temple and you’re looked down upon. As someone that has left, I think of the time that we were a young married couple with a baby and we couldn’t pay rent, buy groceries, etc… but did we pay tithing? Freaking ALWAYS. I hate that we were that brainwashed that we were blindly following and giving to a deceitful organization in the name of our “faith” and always paid that 10% first. If I knew what I know now…🤪
Commenting to help.
Bishop Jones grew a beard and got tattoos in a year??!!
I’m not saying these gentlemen didn’t have testimonies or weren’t faithful but i don’t think they were “churchbroke.” If a Bishop in Provo, Utah goes awol, you’re a pariah and your life is over. If you’re in Tennessee at least you have a chance at normalcy. Loved, loved, loved this episode!!
Ya'll did what you thought was right. We all do. We just did what we were "supposed to do". Be kinder to your former selves. I said and did some stupid 'canned cause we were programmed to' shit that I regret.
I also served as a Bishop during COVID . It was the most challenging thing I have ever been a part off and at the same time my work was on overdrive because I was working as a Postmaster and our package delivers increased by 1/2 million over 4 years. My first month on I got a letter from a Sister wanting her name removed because of the Gospel Essays. This was the first I heard of the things talking about especially when it came to Joseph Smith and polygamy. I’m still in the camp that he didn’t practice it and that Brigham Young began the practice. But hear it is on the LDS website saying he did this. I did watch an interesting take supporting the Joseph was fighting against it and after his death Brigham implemented the practice. This actually lined up with what President Hinkley said on Larry King. Also there isn’t any DNA evidence connecting children to Joseph and if that’s true then he was a terrible polygamist compared to Young and the rest of them. At any rate it’s a problem. Brigham did a lot of very questionable stuff. I like the channel because as a Southerner it’s always been difficult being in the church and it’s just different than being out in Utah. I also think the ban on baptizing my Southern brothers and sisters that drink sweet tea is so ridiculous. I also feel like the church in the south is an afterthought to the leadership. I’m not ready to leave the church over it but it certainly has changed things in my mind. I do love the members of the Ward I served. When it came to interviewing youth when I got to the Chasity question I always encouraged the youth to have this conversation with their parent or a trusted loved one. also if any YM come in with shame of looking at P I would tell them to hold up there head up and know that our Savior has love and grace with this sort of stuff and to move forward. No way we should be beating up on a young person but instead help lift them up so they can have confidence in the atonement. I tried my best to avoid being a handbook Bishop but will admit that the first year I looked up a lot of stuff then after that I just we t with the impression that I would get on how to deal with a issue. The handbook changes every other week.
"I’m still in the camp that he didn’t practice it and that Brigham Young began the practice."
I've studied the history of Mormon polygamy for 28 years. Let me assure you that Joseph Smith did indeed originate it and practice it. About 130 people in Nauvoo had heard about polygamy during Joseph's lifetime, and every single one of them said that they learned it from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes the people who accepted polygamy and practiced it as well as those who opposed it and spoke out against it.
Every serious, legitimate historian who has reasearched and published on ths issue beginning with Fawn Brodie's bio of Joseph Smith in 1946 concurs that Smith started it. These modern day "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" simply refuse to accept the facts, because they know that if Smith started polygamy, that that means that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. They want to keep believing in Joseph, so they put themselves into a state of denial of the facts. They posit that all of the 130 or so people who testified to Joseph's involvement in polygamy were liars or were misinformed.
If you want to know the facts of this issue, I recommend that you start by reading the article "Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844" by historian Gary James Bergera. In that paper, you'll learn:
"The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six."
" Also there isn’t any DNA evidence connecting children to Joseph and if that’s true then he was a terrible polygamist compared to Young and the rest of them."
Whether or not Joseph Smith sired any children by any of his plural wives or not is immaterial to the evidence which proves that he originated and practiced polygamy. Several of his former plural wives testified in court that they had had sex with them. At least two women, who were married at the time, said that they didn't know whether a child of theirs was fathered by Smith or their legal husbands. So obviously, they were having sex with both Smith and their husbands when they became pregnant.
In 1905, one of Joseph's former plural wives, Mary Rollins Lightner, was invited to speak at Brigham Young Academy because she was one of the last few living members who had been in the church from its beginnings, and because of her long and close relationship with Joseph Smith. For many years, she had been the Relief Society president in Minersville, Utah. In her remarks, Mary said:
"I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names."
In addition, other Nauvoo church members whom Joseph inducted into polygamy in Nauvoo sired children by their plural wives. One example is William Clayton's matter-of-fact journal entries in which he recorded Joseph performing the plural sealing of Clayton to his wife's sister in 1842, and that woman bearing his child in 1843. So there was no question among plural marriage practitioners in Nauvoo that sexual relations and producing children were part of the plan.
Another example is the memoir of Emily Partridge. She told in great detail of her and her sister's plural marriage to Smith in 1843, and of being sealed to Brigham Young after Joseph's death, and bearing his child:
"Time went on, and the temple was finished. I received my annointing in the same way and again entered into plural marriage. According to the law of proxy, I became the wife of Brigham Young and received my blessings in the Temple at Nauvoo...While in Nauvoo, I had kept my child a secret, and only a few knew I had one. But after I started on my journey, it became publicly known, and people would stop at our house to see a “spiritual child,” and one told me years after that he was the handsomest child she had ever seen."
So, Brigham Young didn't do anything after Joseph's death that Joseph himself wasn't doing. Several of Joseph's "plural widows" were sealed "by proxy" to Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, and other leaders, and that gave those men the "right" to have sex with those women and produce children with them. If Brigham had come up with plural marriage involving sexual relations instead of Joseph, all of those women would have considered the practice to be apostate and sinful, and they certainly would not have trekked 2000 miles into uncivilized territory to voluntarily live in polygamy. They would have left the church and stayed back east as many other polygamy opponents did. So this whole theory that Brigham started polygamy after Joseph's death does not comport with the known facts in any way.
"I’m still in the camp that he didn’t practice it and that Brigham Young began the practice."
I've studied the history of Mormon polygamy for 28 years. Let me assure you that Joseph Smith did indeed originate it and practice it. About 130 people in Nauvoo had heard about polygamy during Joseph's lifetime, and every single one of them said that they learned it from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes the people who accepted polygamy and practiced it as well as those who opposed it and spoke out against it.
Every serious, legitimate historian who has reasearched and published on ths issue beginning with Fawn Brodie's bio of Joseph Smith in 1946 concurs that Smith started it. These modern day "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" simply refuse to accept the facts, because they know that if Smith started polygamy, that that means that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. They want to keep believing in Joseph, so they put themselves into a state of denial of the facts. They posit that all of the 130 or so people who testified to Joseph's involvement in polygamy were liars or were misinformed.
If you want to know the facts of this issue, I recommend that you start by reading the article "Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844" by historian Gary James Bergera. In that paper, you'll learn:
"The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six."
" Also there isn’t any DNA evidence connecting children to Joseph and if that’s true then he was a terrible polygamist compared to Young and the rest of them."
Whether or not Joseph Smith sired any children by any of his plural wives or not is immaterial to the evidence which proves that he originated and practiced polygamy. Several of his former plural wives testified in court that they had had sex with them. At least two women, who were married at the time, said that they didn't know whether a child of theirs was fathered by Smith or their legal husbands. So obviously, they were having sex with both Smith and their husbands when they became pregnant.
In 1905, one of Joseph's former plural wives, Mary Rollins Lightner, was invited to speak at Brigham Young Academy because she was one of the last few living members who had been in the church from its beginnings, and because of her long and close relationship with Joseph Smith. For many years, she had been the Relief Society president in Minersville, Utah. In her remarks, Mary said:
"I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names."
In addition, other Nauvoo church members whom Joseph inducted into polygamy in Nauvoo sired children by their plural wives. One example is William Clayton's matter-of-fact journal entries in which he recorded Joseph performing the plural sealing of Clayton to his wife's sister in 1842, and that woman bearing his child in 1843. So there was no question among plural marriage practitioners in Nauvoo that sexual relations and producing children were part of the plan.
Another example is the memoir of Emily Partridge. She told in great detail of her and her sister's plural marriage to Smith in 1843, and of being sealed to Brigham Young after Joseph's death, and bearing his child:
"Time went on, and the temple was finished. I received my annointing in the same way and again entered into plural marriage. According to the law of proxy, I became the wife of Brigham Young and received my blessings in the Temple at Nauvoo...While in Nauvoo, I had kept my child a secret, and only a few knew I had one. But after I started on my journey, it became publicly known, and people would stop at our house to see a “spiritual child,” and one told me years after that he was the handsomest child she had ever seen."
So, Brigham Young didn't do anything after Joseph's death that Joseph himself wasn't doing. Several of Joseph's "plural widows" were sealed "by proxy" to Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, and other leaders, and that gave those men the "right" to have sex with those women and produce children with them. If Brigham had come up with plural marriage involving sexual relations against Joseph's teachings, all of those women would have considered the practice to be apostate and sinful, and they certainly would not have trekked 2000 miles into uncivilized territory to voluntarily live in polygamy. They would have left the church and stayed back east as many other polygamy opponents did. So this whole theory that Brigham started polygamy after Joseph's death does not comport with the known facts in any way.
I never had a hot Bishop like Bishop Jones!
Same!
Cultch with the $5 offer🤣
Haha
❤
Active members who accept callings because they "have" to and then go awol.🤦🏼♀️
So far 40 min in the podcast, all these cracks start appearing is why the cult is jumping on the Jesus band wagon.
You guys are like a bunch of teenagers let out of school early.
Haha…I think this is a compliment!
How sad.
What is sad exactly?
@@Thebishopsinterview Members leaving the church.
I didn't realize Bishop Jones was THAT Bishop from Momo. stories! That dude is Definitely someone I want to hang out with for an evening 😎🍺🍻
I wish I was awake for this live🥲