EVERY SINGLE CREATOR SHOULD GIVE THIS GUY A REVIEW COPY. Best reviews by soooooooo far... The detailed overview, valid concerns, honest thoughts... from a guy that shows that has put in the needed time with a few plays (and not just one) and player counts. Just thank you!
@@Syko1985truth. But at the same time, AR just got a top-tier playtest and feedback from a high level reviewer and gamer. Which is invaluable. If creators only want to hear positive playtest feedback and reviews, they don’t deserve to make games. Critical feedback from someone outside their ‘think tank’ is vital. All these other TH-cam unboxings are pure garbage adding zero value. Tubers get free copies, and AR gets hype for the fomo. I’m realizing what channels I should unsubscribe from…
Daniel, brother! You just crush these reviews. Gloomhaven, frosthaven, Oathsworn, now this... your level of analysis is just top notch. We need actual thoughtful reviews before campaigns earn millions of $$ on an untested product. No excuse needed for this review's fast turnaround. It was on point. I hope AR watches your review, and wish them much success. Because of your honesty and depth, yours was the closest review to convince me to pledge... we'll see...
I'm in absolute awe at the quality of this review -- thorough, fast-paced, humorous, intelligent, and more valuable than anything else I've seen on this game. Thank you!
I really appreciate including the bit from "KDM guy" at the end because he really nailed how I felt about what I'd seen and what I was concerned about.
Amazingly thorough job on this review/preview. Completely agree that the standard version needs dual layer boards, especially when they have tracks designed as they are. It's not about luxury, it's basic functionality. Stonemaier tried to do without them in Expeditions and they realised their mistake, dual layee boards are coming in the expansion. AR must be nudged to fix this
Awaken Realms are turning into a greedy company. Not only are they gatekeeping basic user functionality like dual layered boards in their crowdfunding pledge but they also took out the character minis, plastic organizer and higher quality tokens (similar to what shipped with Nemesis) from the standard core pledge. Now if you want character minis, plastic organizer, higher quality tokens or dual layered boards, you are forced to get 30+ minis. Strong arming you to get more plastic
You know I gotta say you may not have the fancy studio, but you guys do a thorough job reviewing games. Every other video was 10-15 minutes with reviewers constantly saying "I don't know the rules I may be playing wrong." It seems that you guys actually enjoy giving real feedback rather than gushing about the minis and art. Thanks I'm eagerly awaiting what they end up doing with this game.
Thanks! In defense of other channels though, the rulebook was very unpolished haha, I had a hilarious email chain with AR for clarifications to make sure the rules here were correct! -Daniel
Thank you for the amazing review. The depths you go to explain a game's problems are unlike any other channel I have seen so far. It feels as though my suspicions for this game are 100% true. It does feel like a game that you struggle to map the initial turns and once you are past a certain point it's just a time-wasting grind till the end. I really don't know how they can fix that but I agree completely with you on one thing: there is potential here. Potential that most certainly will go to waste if they continue with their plan to rush the game in this state. It needs more time for thoughtful design that takes into account player count, ways to keep things interesting throughout the entire encounter and making the levelling systems better. It's a hard pass from me at this point unless they change things.
@@nitro1048 it all boils down to whether you believe the outlined problems are too great vs how well you think AR can handle them. I am a skeptic in that regard because I find the core system problematic. If it ends up the case that they fix it, I am sure I can pick up the game later on.
Very interesting! The sponsor got their money's worth. I can imagine them saying, "oh yeah, we should do that," over and over. The analogy to Oath is interesting also. And good point at the beginning about verticality in board games. Haven't thought a lot about this before, but I agree it would be useful.
Thank you so much for this review, I completely disagree with anyone saying it’s ’bad practice’ to review prototype products. It’s often impossible to judge whether to back a game or not as ‘reviewers’ are too scared to leave critical comments as it might prevent them from receiving prototype products in the future. This just fosters an environment where content creators give general feedback and some slight criticism, which is often completely unhelpful to potential consumers. I strongly agree with all the feedback you left and while I haven’t played the game myself, your amendments would ease a lot of my concerns going in. I hope that Awaken Realms has the foresight to listen to your valuable feedback and incorporate this into their game. I hope they continue to provide you guys with review copies in the future.
Amazing review. So well thought out and put together with objective and subjective viewpoints with super valid constructive criticism. This review may have a huge impact on the final product which is so valuable. More of this please!
90 minute review. You don't need to apologize for the review feeling rushed :P It contains more gameplay analysis than a lot of boardgame reviews! You made almost a better case for it than the campaign does. Of course, your ideal version of it sounds like an ideal, rather than reality :P
Awakened realms must be equal parts in love with your reviews and critical eye. as well as scared shitless of your detailed dissection of their games and mechanisms haha
That's what a review should look like. You guys at shelfside are doing the job! Unlike some happy go lucky 30min based on unboxing and looking at components "reviews". You played the game and it shows. You basically made a full analysis of their game. I hope they are satisfied. Nothing and noone seems to give so much feedback.
I'm going to continue to watch this one. I hope that AW provides an update about making changes based on your concerns. Otherwise I am just going to pass.
@@victornguyen1175 Bloodborne the boardgame was such a missed chance. The biggest draw from these games is intricate level design, so of course the boardgame is a randomized mess. Grimcoven, of course, decides to not improve on this. All aesthetics copied, but the substance was still completely missed.
I wouldn't exactly summarize my personal score like that haha, cause there's so much to love here conceptually, it's just that unfortunately the prototype is lacking a lot of meat on its bones. Like, my personal enjoyment would probably go up considerably if there were more level up cards and elites/minions and whatnot, or if more of the scenario system was showed off like the hunter bosses. -Daniel
I rly like Daniel's idea with making the game an ongoing story with a notebook and writing your own "lore". Looking forward to more updates on this prototype :)
Great review! I like enough of what I’m seeing to pledge and have faith they’ll sort out some of those balance issues. Definitely agree there needs to be incentive to push yourself to the higher corruption levels and possibly tip over. That’s what Death May Die pings so well. And the way it escalates to a big finish is always entertaining. I feel like with some tweaks Grimcoven can get there.
Based on what you said, i think the lement/ upgrading actually needs to be less felxable and incentive leveling up like you said. Also, maybe turning into a boss or elite at the end of the track, and not ending a game with one death could help. Having a player consistently turn or die from leveling to much, but still being able to continue on with the round seems great.
Woah. What an amazing review. I can’t wait to see more of your content! Also, I’m the KD:M guy in our group. 😂 But I’m genuinely excited for Grimcoven!
Thanks for the detailed review! I am glad you were honest regarding the problems with the prototype becaused it revealed that the game requires additional content and variability / novelty to truly shine which means that the core gameplay loop is just not good enough. Thanks for saving me tons of money. Not backing this for sure.
TBF, I think most co-op games are gonna struggle with replayability without having tons of enemies, levels, characters, etc. unless they're more on the heavier side. Don't think I'd enjoy my favorites like Spirit Island and Frosthaven if there were like only 2 scenarios, 3 characters, and those characters had access to a third of their actual amount of content. -Daniel
One of my main concerns is build variety and impact. If everything feels the same every time with just slightly different cards giving you essentially the same experience I don't think I'm interested. but if the cards feel significant in their impact and playstyle that would be great. I guess it's hard to say from the prototype which this game will become but it sure makes it hard for me to decide.
My guess is that's more character dependent cause gunslinger felt really same-y but duality and technomancer had some different stuff they could do while still being effective. If we're talking about min-maxing though that might be an issue cause there's clearly some better starting item choices so if you can pick those every time it might get stale. -Daniel
To be honest, having finished Oathsworn and waiting for my Aeon Trespass copy (even though you destroyed it here haha), I do not think Grimcoven has anything for someone who wants complex and deep boss battlers. It is mainly for one-shot game nights for friends who are eager to play the genre. Additionally, the price may be reasonable, but the content seems so far low and lacklustre. Of course, it is still a prototype but there are some good boss battlers out there already (not one-shot though except Townslfolk Tussle with its abysmal for my eyes art)
Townsfolk Tussle seems very simple, played it using TTSim and the strategy was mostly run to the boss and hit him until he dies, try to navigate the reactions. Played it solo and felt like I was not taking enough decisions and just was waiting on dice to hit.
It was worth it. It was great to hear ymthe concerns, even though I'm probably still backing. The core system seems solid and I trust AR to continue development.
kinda surprised that melee needs to be on the same tile and not adjacent since its a hexagonal layout. could make melee more strategic, deal with mini clutter, and make tiles with multiple minis something significant
AR is now the new CMON. Great company but it got too big and we should take a step back and support people that actually need the money to create their games
Not sure I follow the logic here. I generally buy games I want to play. Whether someone needs my money or not doesn’t ever play a factor into the decision making process for hobby stuff like this.
The logic is that they have the money to create the game and sell it in retail without exploiting the crowdfunding process which originally was for people who didn’t have the capital to create something that people liked. I backed recently the nemesis retaliation projects through the campaign. They made 12mllion and since then they have left the pledge manager open for whoever wants to back and now they have reached 16million. So the initial backers committed their money to build up the campaign in order for others to late pledge whenever they want to get they same exact stuff. They treat crowdfunding as pre orders and that’s bad because at least with preorders you are guaranteed to get your product, here they also tell you that they are not guaranteed to deliver. So they get a huge loan from you while in parallel they sell their products and you benefit nothing. Buy retail from the big companies, give your money to small time creators. I gave $400 to HEXplorit guys and I don’t regret it, since they are a handful of people, trying their best to sustain a pretty good game system and they really need the money for the development. At the same time they deliver great quality products with infinite replay ability, without tons of plastic that doesn’t do anything.
@@Twineandribbon people try to find meaning in their commercial purchasing choices as if they are winning against capitalism that way lol - who cares right?
I don't think AR or CMON stepping away would help "the little guy." Many people (myself included) just wouldn't back games if companies them stopped using it.
Great review, especially in light of the time constraints. You gave a lot of good ideas on improving the game. However, it’s funding now so my concern is that AR is done with the base game (except minor typos) and are quickly making expansions (or images of expansions) to add for more money. I do like the standee option as I am getting burned out on huge minis, especially when they impede game play.
If anything, the high funding gives them the money to development the game more. Obviously not a guarantee, but STALKER made about $5mil USD and they have been continuing development and updating/improving.
Fantastic in-depth review. Some very valid concerns, but i think I trust Awaken Realms enough to work on the game and deliver it in a much better state. Especially after the improvements they've made to STALKER and Dragon Eclipse. Though it also does feel VERY early and hope that we actually dont see it until 2026. I think it needs the extra time, which again based on STALKER development, it will get.
I really hope AR listens to the cons & fixes you mentioned and hit that sweet spot for balancing (sounds like they have a lot of work cut out for them lol). I'm going all-in because I soiled myself screaming Bloodborne as soon as I saw the art (and similarities to DMD which is my favorite game). Thank you always for the excellent content :)
Would you suggest increasing the boss power over time somehow or making the elite harder to kill or even able to return? And should you be forced to get lament sometimes? Maybe you’re forced to spend at least half of the lament you get so that you’re not forced to use everything but you can’t resist spending some of it.
I'd love to see gameplay of you playing if you've gotten so far into it. Every other playthrough I've seen have had the people get completely wiped out.
I would also be interested as some of the negative comments, seemed off to me, a few examples given seemed impossible to happen in a game, as played by others in play throughs.
wow. Defeatism much? One group member dies. "sorry we give up." World is doomed. Wasn't too keen on RNJesus dictating actions. I get rolling dice for chance to fail with repurcussions, but being unable to do something because a random result didn't show up is less believable. The theme of this game tho is right up my alley. I have Bloodborne and played it a lot, so i don't think I'll be missing anything this board game offers. This also reminds me how unwieldy Gloomhaven is in terms of space, prep work, and packup time. I love these videos coming from this channel. The energy, the funny comments, and that these really dig into things that worked, and things that didn't work. Almost completely comprehensive look at board games compared to other places.
It seems like the main issue with the core mechanics (putting aside specifically prototype issues) is the late game balance is written around everyone going for very high corruption. At a glance, would being required to take lament (instead of choosing to throw it away) once you become corrupted fix it? Would that have the effect of meaning the driving force of the game is trying not to kill one another, while the boss tries to survive? It's hard to tell without knowing how much lament is handed out, I'm just curious what your thoughts are
You do get a lot of lament later on from removing the boss cards (usually everyone gets 3-4), most of which I usually throw away, so yeah that could work. Though imo it's a less interesting solution cause it basically guarantees everyone maxes out 3/4's through the game every time instead of riding the razor's edge like in Cthulhu DmD. -Daniel
Now that's a review!!! Dude, you did a fantastic job with this game! I was never into this kind of games, but this looks really interesting, also Awaken Realms minis are amazing! Could you revisit this game when it's fully released?
Same, I think the two things for me are the victorian theme not coming through as much as I was hoping, and there really isn't that much of a boss battle going on.
I wish it could be possible to do the direct comparison of Blood and Grimcoven. Like they are both boss battlers, both reddish/blackish color themed, both dark. Like there are so many similarities so going for one could probably mean passing on the other one. There is still 17 days till blood launch, I get that but surly the prototypes have been sent, haven't they?
I prefer a single corruption token to move along the track because why do I need to slot 10+ cubes when I can move one token along the track. I also agree that the corruption track should be flipped in how we level up it would just make more sense in how corruption makes us stronger the more we lament. Early game when you are barely corrupted why are we leveling every 2 and late game every 3-4 it should definitely be flipped.
have you guys played the bloodborne board game? i know you did the card game and other CMON products, so i was wondering if you guys had any opinion on how this game stacks up to BB:tBG
The game looks really good, and this review was incredibly insightful - ty (new subscriber). I want to purchase but, if the games are anti-climactic by nature, I'll avoid. Marvel Champions had the exact same problem and it really robbed you of the endgame experience, making the game feel quite average, despite how good the core mechanics were.
Marvel Champions has the tools to make it more difficult, however. You can freely experiment with Standard 2 and Expert 2 sets, add some nasty campaign cards to the villain as you defeat their 1st stage (that is a house rule admittedly).
The anticlimactic end is one of the main and most common flaws in coop games. Most of them get to a point where you can just math out the end of the game. The only way I can think of to fix this is to introduce some form of random factor when attacking the boss (using boss battlers as an example). Either a deck of reactions every time you hit or variable defense, something like the boss has a defense die or deck to make the outcome less certain, or something like Nemesis where after attacking you draw a card to see how much damage you had to do to wound.
The fact that Awaken Realms does not show the best review (THIS ONE) out of the 16 videos on their campaign page, it's what scares me the most! I am afraid they just care about feeding us with marketing videos that sell FOMO and overhyped games...
Or they just saw that this review have bigger feedback of the prototype that is meaningful. They asked all the reviewers to be painfully honest because it will help them improve the game, so I guess they loved this one.
Just realizing this? Awaken Realms makes cool games, but their games are almost always sub-par and mediocre with relatively little playtesting. Oh, and their rulebooks are always dogshit.
What do you think? You are not backing the game to get this version of it. You are backing on the hopes and dreams that Awaken Realms make something better out of it. What will happen? Stay tuned for another episode of Crowdfunding Roulette!
@@gameguy1337 I believe you misread my post. To clarify it for you, the AI art they are currently using as a placeholder is probably why it feels disjointed in the prototype
Pretty good job, I am so happy they actually provided link to your video (hopefully they are listening). So far I can see they lowered the number of promised content a bit and that is not the best move. I prefer when studios provide more from what they promised instead of the other way around. For example, now they promise 6 hunters instead of 8. Less elite, less common guys... - I had the same issue analyzing mechanics, it really seams at the start you need to deal with elite and normal enemies and boss exactly when you are weak and after you remove the elite it seems like its a walk in the park. Maybe becoming corrputed in the current state is not as painful as it should be. If they add extra mechanics for hunters in corrupted state that can hurt the game it will make leveling harder choice. There is hunter that can enter the play later on, hunting the characters (second elite), but he is exclusive content so most people will not have it and even if you have it, you need to draw his corruption card after you already have some corruption (I guess) to activate him, so he can come in play only later and with only one activation card, pretty rare. - I had some of the same issues with skills. They used the same leveling in Tamashii with 2 cards, pick one and leave the other or take a chip (in their case instead of dice), but there you had so much resource management and randomness that can build you differently every time. My suggestion was just like the one you made. Maybe add equipment cards that you randomly pick at start and some equipments from chests and side quests. For example in Tamashii your skill deck was build from: personal skills+faction skills+body card (kind of equipment) and even enemy cards. There was so much diversity in the game that you can rarely expirience your character the same way too times. - Gunslinger just looks bad, this may be my opinion only. But both technomanser and Duality have some crazy mechanics going on around them all the time and gunslinger "I load a bullet"...
I don't see why you couldn't, it would likely be harder for someone not accustomed to reading rulebooks but unless you're working with horrendous reading comprehension it should be fine haha! That and you can probably find how to play videos regardless. -Daniel
im so sad pledges are done for this game :/ bloodborne is literally my favorite game of all time and seiing how visabbly close this looks to it just makes me want to cry. found out about this game today :/
Damn, I must you know your taste good enough that I guessed ur personal rating right again! also: i platinumed Bloodborne too, my favourite video game. i feel your pain too
It's a little odd that the bosses here have the exact same problem as the Nemesis Retaliation prototype, it's almost like they made the same game twice making the same mistakes. I'm not even kidding, it's literally the exact same problem with the Queen in Retaliation as the bosses here. I don't have confidence that Awaken Realms is doing their best with these games if they're just copypasting game mechanics across unrelated games, on top of the inconsistent artwork resulting from their use of AI.
@@Sikkasill This is gonna be a lot, apologies in advance! I'm trying really hard to condense this. Nemesis Retaliation is actually a departure from the other two that came prior, so you're not missing something well-known. Nemesis is a survival-horror board game by Awaken Realms themed after Aliens where you scavenge for items/weapons and try to accomplish your objective before escaping. In Retaliation, it's more of a search-and-destroy game as a group of well-equipped soldiers as opposed to a survival-horror-esque with survivors that its predecessors were. You mow down giant mobs of aliens in hallways with big automatic guns in Retaliation, rather than struggling against a few lurking the board. Retaliation's Queen, the strongest Intruder (alien) also uses a "boss deck", where the boss changes phases/reacts upon being hit and removing cards from the deck is the way the Queen takes damage. This deck is an entirely new mechanic to the Nemesis franchise, and was introduced in Retaliation which is currently prototyping "coincidentally" at the same time as this game. The Queen appears when certain conditions are met. Just like Grimcoven shown here, you also get to push the Queen all over the board in Retaliation when you attack them. That deck also contains the actions/attacks that the Queen will do. When the deck is empty, the Queen dies and all associated effects no longer see any play. In our play testing of the Retaliation prototype for Tabletop Simulator, we ran into the exact same game design issue Daniel runs into here. It isn't very hard to kill the Queen because you can just set up in the right positions and prevent its attacks before they happen repeatedly while it runs around until it dies. The Queen can also run down to a single card, making it repeat the same final action until it dies. When the Queen dies, the game slows to a crawl and nothing interesting happens anymore. All the tension and strategy just disappears and difficulty drops off a cliff once the Queen is defeated, which isn't particularly difficult or uncommon in Retaliation. In prior Nemesis games, it was virtually unintended to kill the Queen unless you spent most of the game preparing to do it (usually for your objective). You also weren't able to bully it around the board before. We all felt like the Queen's new mechanics felt out of place, and this video makes me suspect that they just pulled it from Grimcoven, as it suits this game much better. Retaliation also introduced 1HP intruders for the first time. I guess there's the 2 actions per turn in rounds thing too, but that's a great system as-is. There's nothing wrong with borrowing good game mechanics, especially from their own games, but this feels very similar, to the point where even the weaknesses are the same.
@@victornguyen1175 I guess they really thought the mechanics with the Queen was so clever they wanted to make a whole game out of that? By going back and looking at the past Nemesis games, I have to say that I like the survival horror style of the older games a lot more than what Retaliation turned out to be...except I do like it being fully cooperative. Even the tracker on top of the hero boards in Grimcoven resemble the boards in retaliation using red cubes like in the prototype now.
@@victornguyen1175you said 1HP intruders is a new thing, but technically creepers and larva are 1HP, no? I’m not trying to nitpick, I just haven’t studied retaliation as much as you.
@@sideswipe2615 Understandably! The larvae do technically have 1HP, but Larvae are also present in Retaliation, which also have 1HP like they always have. However, it's the Adult Intruders who can now be defeated as if they have 1HP. I usually consider the Larvae separate from the rest since you don't deal "Injuries" to them specifically, so that's my bad for being unclear. When any Intruders are present in a Corridor (they can be in Corridors now) you can perform a Burst, which will kill an equal number of Intruders to the roll in that Corridor, one hit per Intruder (the Queen takes injuries instead). This also includes the Breeder equivalent, the Drone in Retaliation. For players not familiar with Nemesis, the Breeder is the second strongest Intruder, just under the Queen and normally requires the same amount of effort to kill.
They do plan on having different colors though for different types of minis! Gonna assume the enemies stay red, but I do think that would potentially help cause certain colors look better imo like the tainted grail tan. The brighter it is, the more contrast and shading can pop out! The dark red here could stand to be a little brighter I think! -Daniel
@@ShelfsideI paint a lot and so rarely opt for sundrop. However, I did pick up a sundropped Lords of Ragnarok. Yellow and green minis showed no shading at all and I had to do it myself.
EVERY SINGLE CREATOR SHOULD GIVE THIS GUY A REVIEW COPY.
Best reviews by soooooooo far... The detailed overview, valid concerns, honest thoughts... from a guy that shows that has put in the needed time with a few plays (and not just one) and player counts.
Just thank you!
They are underrated for sure
I used to love this channel but been pretty iffy since ATO review
@@SK-do5rv That insanely detailed 3hr review that they posted? Made me a huge fan regardless if I agree or not...
*Every creator that truly believes in their game.
He gives very fair and personal reviews that I can imagine a lot of creators would be afraid of.
@@Syko1985truth. But at the same time, AR just got a top-tier playtest and feedback from a high level reviewer and gamer. Which is invaluable. If creators only want to hear positive playtest feedback and reviews, they don’t deserve to make games. Critical feedback from someone outside their ‘think tank’ is vital. All these other TH-cam unboxings are pure garbage adding zero value. Tubers get free copies, and AR gets hype for the fomo. I’m realizing what channels I should unsubscribe from…
Daniel, brother! You just crush these reviews. Gloomhaven, frosthaven, Oathsworn, now this... your level of analysis is just top notch. We need actual thoughtful reviews before campaigns earn millions of $$ on an untested product. No excuse needed for this review's fast turnaround. It was on point. I hope AR watches your review, and wish them much success. Because of your honesty and depth, yours was the closest review to convince me to pledge... we'll see...
I'm in absolute awe at the quality of this review -- thorough, fast-paced, humorous, intelligent, and more valuable than anything else I've seen on this game. Thank you!
I really appreciate including the bit from "KDM guy" at the end because he really nailed how I felt about what I'd seen and what I was concerned about.
Amazingly thorough job on this review/preview. Completely agree that the standard version needs dual layer boards, especially when they have tracks designed as they are. It's not about luxury, it's basic functionality. Stonemaier tried to do without them in Expeditions and they realised their mistake, dual layee boards are coming in the expansion. AR must be nudged to fix this
Awaken Realms are turning into a greedy company. Not only are they gatekeeping basic user functionality like dual layered boards in their crowdfunding pledge but they also took out the character minis, plastic organizer and higher quality tokens (similar to what shipped with Nemesis) from the standard core pledge. Now if you want character minis, plastic organizer, higher quality tokens or dual layered boards, you are forced to get 30+ minis. Strong arming you to get more plastic
The gears are too similar and the vulnerable icon shouldn't be a droplet
You know I gotta say you may not have the fancy studio, but you guys do a thorough job reviewing games. Every other video was 10-15 minutes with reviewers constantly saying "I don't know the rules I may be playing wrong." It seems that you guys actually enjoy giving real feedback rather than gushing about the minis and art. Thanks I'm eagerly awaiting what they end up doing with this game.
Thanks! In defense of other channels though, the rulebook was very unpolished haha, I had a hilarious email chain with AR for clarifications to make sure the rules here were correct!
-Daniel
Glad to see a very in-depth review of whats on hand and not just a fumbled through playthrough that doesn't inform me with much info 👍🏼.
These are some of the best reviews I have seen. This is an actual review...like a proper review. Thank you so much!
Thank God someone honest in this industry!
Thank you for the amazing review. The depths you go to explain a game's problems are unlike any other channel I have seen so far. It feels as though my suspicions for this game are 100% true. It does feel like a game that you struggle to map the initial turns and once you are past a certain point it's just a time-wasting grind till the end. I really don't know how they can fix that but I agree completely with you on one thing: there is potential here. Potential that most certainly will go to waste if they continue with their plan to rush the game in this state. It needs more time for thoughtful design that takes into account player count, ways to keep things interesting throughout the entire encounter and making the levelling systems better. It's a hard pass from me at this point unless they change things.
@@nitro1048 it all boils down to whether you believe the outlined problems are too great vs how well you think AR can handle them. I am a skeptic in that regard because I find the core system problematic. If it ends up the case that they fix it, I am sure I can pick up the game later on.
Very interesting! The sponsor got their money's worth. I can imagine them saying, "oh yeah, we should do that," over and over. The analogy to Oath is interesting also. And good point at the beginning about verticality in board games. Haven't thought a lot about this before, but I agree it would be useful.
Thank you so much for this review, I completely disagree with anyone saying it’s ’bad practice’ to review prototype products.
It’s often impossible to judge whether to back a game or not as ‘reviewers’ are too scared to leave critical comments as it might prevent them from receiving prototype products in the future. This just fosters an environment where content creators give general feedback and some slight criticism, which is often completely unhelpful to potential consumers.
I strongly agree with all the feedback you left and while I haven’t played the game myself, your amendments would ease a lot of my concerns going in.
I hope that Awaken Realms has the foresight to listen to your valuable feedback and incorporate this into their game.
I hope they continue to provide you guys with review copies in the future.
Amazing review. So well thought out and put together with objective and subjective viewpoints with super valid constructive criticism. This review may have a huge impact on the final product which is so valuable. More of this please!
Much appreciated! I can't wait to see what future versions of Grimcoven will look like!
-Daniel
90 minute review. You don't need to apologize for the review feeling rushed :P It contains more gameplay analysis than a lot of boardgame reviews!
You made almost a better case for it than the campaign does. Of course, your ideal version of it sounds like an ideal, rather than reality :P
Awakened realms must be equal parts in love with your reviews and critical eye. as well as scared shitless of your detailed dissection of their games and mechanisms haha
"bingus bungus omega nutty cobble shot"
Loved the review! Thank you! Looks like there's some real potential here.
you just saved me a lot of money. thank you so much for this in-depth review. absolutely fantastic.
That's what a review should look like. You guys at shelfside are doing the job! Unlike some happy go lucky 30min based on unboxing and looking at components "reviews". You played the game and it shows. You basically made a full analysis of their game. I hope they are satisfied. Nothing and noone seems to give so much feedback.
I'm going to continue to watch this one. I hope that AW provides an update about making changes based on your concerns. Otherwise I am just going to pass.
"If I am honest, this should be a 5/10 but I love the minis and art too much."
💀
So... Bloodborne the Board Game. Except it's Bloodborne the Board Game at Home
@@victornguyen1175 Bloodborne the boardgame was such a missed chance. The biggest draw from these games is intricate level design, so of course the boardgame is a randomized mess. Grimcoven, of course, decides to not improve on this.
All aesthetics copied, but the substance was still completely missed.
@@victornguyen1175 Shelfside review essentially was "“Grimcoven could be SO good…if it was a DIFFERENT game” 😭😭
I wouldn't exactly summarize my personal score like that haha, cause there's so much to love here conceptually, it's just that unfortunately the prototype is lacking a lot of meat on its bones. Like, my personal enjoyment would probably go up considerably if there were more level up cards and elites/minions and whatnot, or if more of the scenario system was showed off like the hunter bosses.
-Daniel
@@Shelfside
Early Backers:
"Stop Daniel, he's already dead" 😭😭
this was a great review, thank you. an hour+ review isn’t really practical for me but i was able to hop around a bit and get an idea.
I rly like Daniel's idea with making the game an ongoing story with a notebook and writing your own "lore". Looking forward to more updates on this prototype :)
New favorite board game reviewer... Yes!
Great review! I like enough of what I’m seeing to pledge and have faith they’ll sort out some of those balance issues.
Definitely agree there needs to be incentive to push yourself to the higher corruption levels and possibly tip over.
That’s what Death May Die pings so well. And the way it escalates to a big finish is always entertaining. I feel like with some tweaks Grimcoven can get there.
Damn this is insanely thoughtful and insightful, I hope y’all got thoroughly compensated for this. Well deserved imo
I just can't stop seeing those Stun tokens with the extra e at the end :)
Based on what you said, i think the lement/ upgrading actually needs to be less felxable and incentive leveling up like you said. Also, maybe turning into a boss or elite at the end of the track, and not ending a game with one death could help. Having a player consistently turn or die from leveling to much, but still being able to continue on with the round seems great.
Woah. What an amazing review. I can’t wait to see more of your content!
Also, I’m the KD:M guy in our group. 😂 But I’m genuinely excited for Grimcoven!
Thanks for the detailed review! I am glad you were honest regarding the problems with the prototype becaused it revealed that the game requires additional content and variability / novelty to truly shine which means that the core gameplay loop is just not good enough.
Thanks for saving me tons of money. Not backing this for sure.
TBF, I think most co-op games are gonna struggle with replayability without having tons of enemies, levels, characters, etc. unless they're more on the heavier side. Don't think I'd enjoy my favorites like Spirit Island and Frosthaven if there were like only 2 scenarios, 3 characters, and those characters had access to a third of their actual amount of content.
-Daniel
@@Shelfside
Spirit Island review and Daniel's favorite spirits when? Also, did you guys get Primal?
One of my main concerns is build variety and impact. If everything feels the same every time with just slightly different cards giving you essentially the same experience I don't think I'm interested. but if the cards feel significant in their impact and playstyle that would be great. I guess it's hard to say from the prototype which this game will become but it sure makes it hard for me to decide.
My guess is that's more character dependent cause gunslinger felt really same-y but duality and technomancer had some different stuff they could do while still being effective. If we're talking about min-maxing though that might be an issue cause there's clearly some better starting item choices so if you can pick those every time it might get stale.
-Daniel
To be honest, having finished Oathsworn and waiting for my Aeon Trespass copy (even though you destroyed it here haha), I do not think Grimcoven has anything for someone who wants complex and deep boss battlers. It is mainly for one-shot game nights for friends who are eager to play the genre. Additionally, the price may be reasonable, but the content seems so far low and lacklustre. Of course, it is still a prototype but there are some good boss battlers out there already (not one-shot though except Townslfolk Tussle with its abysmal for my eyes art)
Townsfolk Tussle seems very simple, played it using TTSim and the strategy was mostly run to the boss and hit him until he dies, try to navigate the reactions. Played it solo and felt like I was not taking enough decisions and just was waiting on dice to hit.
@@marinn00 I am not surprised,it's probably just a simpler game, judging by the aesthetics as well
90min *Review* for a game just released to *Crowdfunding* … sheesh!
*Grabs 🍿*
Had to make this really fast so there was basically no cutting out lines lol
-Daniel
It was worth it. It was great to hear ymthe concerns, even though I'm probably still backing. The core system seems solid and I trust AR to continue development.
kinda surprised that melee needs to be on the same tile and not adjacent since its a hexagonal layout. could make melee more strategic, deal with mini clutter, and make tiles with multiple minis something significant
This was a superb overview and early review. Very helpful to me.
Its a long video but damn its smooth like butter! Overview, how to play, pro, con... great review! You guys are really good at this
Awesome and detailed overview, thank you! Just subscribed 👍
Agreed 500% that dual-layed player boards should be mandatory for these expensive games.
AR is now the new CMON. Great company but it got too big and we should take a step back and support people that actually need the money to create their games
The AI they used to do the bulk of the work, before a human artist opens the file to resave it:
"Am I joke to you?"
Not sure I follow the logic here. I generally buy games I want to play. Whether someone needs my money or not doesn’t ever play a factor into the decision making process for hobby stuff like this.
The logic is that they have the money to create the game and sell it in retail without exploiting the crowdfunding process which originally was for people who didn’t have the capital to create something that people liked. I backed recently the nemesis retaliation projects through the campaign. They made 12mllion and since then they have left the pledge manager open for whoever wants to back and now they have reached 16million. So the initial backers committed their money to build up the campaign in order for others to late pledge whenever they want to get they same exact stuff. They treat crowdfunding as pre orders and that’s bad because at least with preorders you are guaranteed to get your product, here they also tell you that they are not guaranteed to deliver. So they get a huge loan from you while in parallel they sell their products and you benefit nothing. Buy retail from the big companies, give your money to small time creators. I gave $400 to HEXplorit guys and I don’t regret it, since they are a handful of people, trying their best to sustain a pretty good game system and they really need the money for the development. At the same time they deliver great quality products with infinite replay ability, without tons of plastic that doesn’t do anything.
@@Twineandribbon people try to find meaning in their commercial purchasing choices as if they are winning against capitalism that way lol - who cares right?
I don't think AR or CMON stepping away would help "the little guy."
Many people (myself included) just wouldn't back games if companies them stopped using it.
Great review, especially in light of the time constraints. You gave a lot of good ideas on improving the game. However, it’s funding now so my concern is that AR is done with the base game (except minor typos) and are quickly making expansions (or images of expansions) to add for more money. I do like the standee option as I am getting burned out on huge minis, especially when they impede game play.
If anything, the high funding gives them the money to development the game more.
Obviously not a guarantee, but STALKER made about $5mil USD and they have been continuing development and updating/improving.
Man i have way too many boss battlers esp with the reprint of townsfolk tussle coming out eventually
I went all in on this. All i hope is that they dont release 20 add ons to take the price to over £700 like Nemesis Retaliation.
Fantastic in-depth review. Some very valid concerns, but i think I trust Awaken Realms enough to work on the game and deliver it in a much better state.
Especially after the improvements they've made to STALKER and Dragon Eclipse.
Though it also does feel VERY early and hope that we actually dont see it until 2026. I think it needs the extra time, which again based on STALKER development, it will get.
Yup! Fingers crossed!
-Daniel
I really hope AR listens to the cons & fixes you mentioned and hit that sweet spot for balancing (sounds like they have a lot of work cut out for them lol). I'm going all-in because I soiled myself screaming Bloodborne as soon as I saw the art (and similarities to DMD which is my favorite game). Thank you always for the excellent content :)
I just HOPE that Awaken realm listen to you dude !, by the way, first video seen, I'm staying on board ^^
Great review.I always love your content.You guys are superhero and just provide amazing information and insight
This is an awesome review. Instant subscribe.
My Ipad charged itself while watching this overview!
Well done!
hahahaha
Where is the parchment and red ink in the GF page. That would be cool.
Would you suggest increasing the boss power over time somehow or making the elite harder to kill or even able to return?
And should you be forced to get lament sometimes? Maybe you’re forced to spend at least half of the lament you get so that you’re not forced to use everything but you can’t resist spending some of it.
I'd love to see gameplay of you playing if you've gotten so far into it. Every other playthrough I've seen have had the people get completely wiped out.
I would also be interested as some of the negative comments, seemed off to me, a few examples given seemed impossible to happen in a game, as played by others in play throughs.
Thanks for your thoughts. To be honest, i am still on the fence
wow. Defeatism much? One group member dies. "sorry we give up." World is doomed.
Wasn't too keen on RNJesus dictating actions. I get rolling dice for chance to fail with repurcussions, but being unable to do something because a random result didn't show up is less believable. The theme of this game tho is right up my alley. I have Bloodborne and played it a lot, so i don't think I'll be missing anything this board game offers.
This also reminds me how unwieldy Gloomhaven is in terms of space, prep work, and packup time.
I love these videos coming from this channel. The energy, the funny comments, and that these really dig into things that worked, and things that didn't work. Almost completely comprehensive look at board games compared to other places.
Great review backed all in
Was the review that positive?
@@odiedodieuk doesn't need to be just needs to be an opinion you can take at face value, the choice is yours.
It seems like the main issue with the core mechanics (putting aside specifically prototype issues) is the late game balance is written around everyone going for very high corruption. At a glance, would being required to take lament (instead of choosing to throw it away) once you become corrupted fix it? Would that have the effect of meaning the driving force of the game is trying not to kill one another, while the boss tries to survive? It's hard to tell without knowing how much lament is handed out, I'm just curious what your thoughts are
You do get a lot of lament later on from removing the boss cards (usually everyone gets 3-4), most of which I usually throw away, so yeah that could work. Though imo it's a less interesting solution cause it basically guarantees everyone maxes out 3/4's through the game every time instead of riding the razor's edge like in Cthulhu DmD.
-Daniel
This was amazing. Thank you.
Now that's a review!!! Dude, you did a fantastic job with this game! I was never into this kind of games, but this looks really interesting, also Awaken Realms minis are amazing! Could you revisit this game when it's fully released?
best review yet of this game , i kinda feel the game is lacking something
Same, I think the two things for me are the victorian theme not coming through as much as I was hoping, and there really isn't that much of a boss battle going on.
Very well done, brought up a lot of good and needs improvement. Hopefully AR takes note.
I wish it could be possible to do the direct comparison of Blood and Grimcoven. Like they are both boss battlers, both reddish/blackish color themed, both dark. Like there are so many similarities so going for one could probably mean passing on the other one. There is still 17 days till blood launch, I get that but surly the prototypes have been sent, haven't they?
I prefer a single corruption token to move along the track because why do I need to slot 10+ cubes when I can move one token along the track. I also agree that the corruption track should be flipped in how we level up it would just make more sense in how corruption makes us stronger the more we lament. Early game when you are barely corrupted why are we leveling every 2 and late game every 3-4 it should definitely be flipped.
this looks Amazing
Such a detailed review - loved it! And it all makes sense, so for now this game is strong no for me
I hope ya'll are going to get a prototype of Odalin to do a review before the campaign starts.
Feels like the overall summary of this game is mentioned early in the video: “This shit is gas!”
Great review. Really appreciate your effort.
Best BG reviewers in the industry
I'm all about this game. It's every thing I want.
HI, it is my first your video and I already know, that you are worth to subscribe! Great job!
have you guys played the bloodborne board game? i know you did the card game and other CMON products, so i was wondering if you guys had any opinion on how this game stacks up to BB:tBG
It's been sitting untouched in my collection though the minis have seen some use in 5E LOL.
-Daniel
You need to play it! It's not prefect and does need at least 1 house rule, but i fund it to be such a solid game.
Such a good review!!!!!!
The game looks really good, and this review was incredibly insightful - ty (new subscriber).
I want to purchase but, if the games are anti-climactic by nature, I'll avoid. Marvel Champions had the exact same problem and it really robbed you of the endgame experience, making the game feel quite average, despite how good the core mechanics were.
Marvel Champions has the tools to make it more difficult, however. You can freely experiment with Standard 2 and Expert 2 sets, add some nasty campaign cards to the villain as you defeat their 1st stage (that is a house rule admittedly).
The anticlimactic end is one of the main and most common flaws in coop games. Most of them get to a point where you can just math out the end of the game. The only way I can think of to fix this is to introduce some form of random factor when attacking the boss (using boss battlers as an example). Either a deck of reactions every time you hit or variable defense, something like the boss has a defense die or deck to make the outcome less certain, or something like Nemesis where after attacking you draw a card to see how much damage you had to do to wound.
@@DeadneckL Exactly, it's a blight on the design - randomness really helps there.
The fact that Awaken Realms does not show the best review (THIS ONE) out of the 16 videos on their campaign page, it's what scares me the most!
I am afraid they just care about feeding us with marketing videos that sell FOMO and overhyped games...
does a bear shit in the woods
I found this from the campaign page. They probably just missed it initially, or it wasn't ready...
Or they just saw that this review have bigger feedback of the prototype that is meaningful. They asked all the reviewers to be painfully honest because it will help them improve the game, so I guess they loved this one.
Just realizing this? Awaken Realms makes cool games, but their games are almost always sub-par and mediocre with relatively little playtesting.
Oh, and their rulebooks are always dogshit.
In other news: Water wet! Like, come on, bro.
I almost have to say that I prefer the boss cards all having a the same back. Allows for more custom stuff
Sounds like a hard game.
It ain't a game for the casual players.
That's why I pledged.
Wait, if it's called a porotype, would they release their finished version as a separate thing?
What do you think? You are not backing the game to get this version of it. You are backing on the hopes and dreams that Awaken Realms make something better out of it. What will happen? Stay tuned for another episode of Crowdfunding Roulette!
Seems that only a fraction of the final
Product was available to review
AR uses generative AI for their art which is probably why it feels a disjointed
No they don't. They used it as a placeholder while the real art was being worked on. Stop spreading misinformation
@@gameguy1337 I believe you misread my post. To clarify it for you, the AI art they are currently using as a placeholder is probably why it feels disjointed in the prototype
visually the game is everythin i want
Pretty good job, I am so happy they actually provided link to your video (hopefully they are listening). So far I can see they lowered the number of promised content a bit and that is not the best move. I prefer when studios provide more from what they promised instead of the other way around. For example, now they promise 6 hunters instead of 8. Less elite, less common guys...
- I had the same issue analyzing mechanics, it really seams at the start you need to deal with elite and normal enemies and boss exactly when you are weak and after you remove the elite it seems like its a walk in the park. Maybe becoming corrputed in the current state is not as painful as it should be. If they add extra mechanics for hunters in corrupted state that can hurt the game it will make leveling harder choice. There is hunter that can enter the play later on, hunting the characters (second elite), but he is exclusive content so most people will not have it and even if you have it, you need to draw his corruption card after you already have some corruption (I guess) to activate him, so he can come in play only later and with only one activation card, pretty rare.
- I had some of the same issues with skills. They used the same leveling in Tamashii with 2 cards, pick one and leave the other or take a chip (in their case instead of dice), but there you had so much resource management and randomness that can build you differently every time. My suggestion was just like the one you made. Maybe add equipment cards that you randomly pick at start and some equipments from chests and side quests. For example in Tamashii your skill deck was build from: personal skills+faction skills+body card (kind of equipment) and even enemy cards. There was so much diversity in the game that you can rarely expirience your character the same way too times.
- Gunslinger just looks bad, this may be my opinion only. But both technomanser and Duality have some crazy mechanics going on around them all the time and gunslinger "I load a bullet"...
Can a person who has no experience with board games except monopoly and is an avid fantasy reader play this game?
I don't see why you couldn't, it would likely be harder for someone not accustomed to reading rulebooks but unless you're working with horrendous reading comprehension it should be fine haha! That and you can probably find how to play videos regardless.
-Daniel
Thank you so much! Indeed great and cold remedy from FOMO )
How nice is it? 5:21
Sounds very much like Oathsworn.
I am curious what u think of Bloodborne, boaardgame?
im so sad pledges are done for this game :/ bloodborne is literally my favorite game of all time and seiing how visabbly close this looks to it just makes me want to cry. found out about this game today :/
There will surely be a late pledge. Keep an eye on campaign updates.
Damn, I must you know your taste good enough that I guessed ur personal rating right again!
also: i platinumed Bloodborne too, my favourite video game. i feel your pain too
Nice! Makes me think I'm explaining myself well haha
-Daniel
Is anyone else getting Gregg Turkington vibes from
MrKDM
Wait... why did that say Stune? 23:30 WTF is STUNE? 🤣
It's a little odd that the bosses here have the exact same problem as the Nemesis Retaliation prototype, it's almost like they made the same game twice making the same mistakes. I'm not even kidding, it's literally the exact same problem with the Queen in Retaliation as the bosses here. I don't have confidence that Awaken Realms is doing their best with these games if they're just copypasting game mechanics across unrelated games, on top of the inconsistent artwork resulting from their use of AI.
Could you explain what you mean? I'm not familiar with Nemesis enough to understand the similarities
@@Sikkasill This is gonna be a lot, apologies in advance! I'm trying really hard to condense this. Nemesis Retaliation is actually a departure from the other two that came prior, so you're not missing something well-known.
Nemesis is a survival-horror board game by Awaken Realms themed after Aliens where you scavenge for items/weapons and try to accomplish your objective before escaping. In Retaliation, it's more of a search-and-destroy game as a group of well-equipped soldiers as opposed to a survival-horror-esque with survivors that its predecessors were. You mow down giant mobs of aliens in hallways with big automatic guns in Retaliation, rather than struggling against a few lurking the board.
Retaliation's Queen, the strongest Intruder (alien) also uses a "boss deck", where the boss changes phases/reacts upon being hit and removing cards from the deck is the way the Queen takes damage. This deck is an entirely new mechanic to the Nemesis franchise, and was introduced in Retaliation which is currently prototyping "coincidentally" at the same time as this game. The Queen appears when certain conditions are met. Just like Grimcoven shown here, you also get to push the Queen all over the board in Retaliation when you attack them. That deck also contains the actions/attacks that the Queen will do. When the deck is empty, the Queen dies and all associated effects no longer see any play. In our play testing of the Retaliation prototype for Tabletop Simulator, we ran into the exact same game design issue Daniel runs into here.
It isn't very hard to kill the Queen because you can just set up in the right positions and prevent its attacks before they happen repeatedly while it runs around until it dies. The Queen can also run down to a single card, making it repeat the same final action until it dies. When the Queen dies, the game slows to a crawl and nothing interesting happens anymore. All the tension and strategy just disappears and difficulty drops off a cliff once the Queen is defeated, which isn't particularly difficult or uncommon in Retaliation.
In prior Nemesis games, it was virtually unintended to kill the Queen unless you spent most of the game preparing to do it (usually for your objective). You also weren't able to bully it around the board before. We all felt like the Queen's new mechanics felt out of place, and this video makes me suspect that they just pulled it from Grimcoven, as it suits this game much better. Retaliation also introduced 1HP intruders for the first time.
I guess there's the 2 actions per turn in rounds thing too, but that's a great system as-is. There's nothing wrong with borrowing good game mechanics, especially from their own games, but this feels very similar, to the point where even the weaknesses are the same.
@@victornguyen1175 I guess they really thought the mechanics with the Queen was so clever they wanted to make a whole game out of that? By going back and looking at the past Nemesis games, I have to say that I like the survival horror style of the older games a lot more than what Retaliation turned out to be...except I do like it being fully cooperative.
Even the tracker on top of the hero boards in Grimcoven resemble the boards in retaliation using red cubes like in the prototype now.
@@victornguyen1175you said 1HP intruders is a new thing, but technically creepers and larva are 1HP, no? I’m not trying to nitpick, I just haven’t studied retaliation as much as you.
@@sideswipe2615 Understandably! The larvae do technically have 1HP, but Larvae are also present in Retaliation, which also have 1HP like they always have. However, it's the Adult Intruders who can now be defeated as if they have 1HP. I usually consider the Larvae separate from the rest since you don't deal "Injuries" to them specifically, so that's my bad for being unclear.
When any Intruders are present in a Corridor (they can be in Corridors now) you can perform a Burst, which will kill an equal number of Intruders to the roll in that Corridor, one hit per Intruder (the Queen takes injuries instead). This also includes the Breeder equivalent, the Drone in Retaliation. For players not familiar with Nemesis, the Breeder is the second strongest Intruder, just under the Queen and normally requires the same amount of effort to kill.
Great great review. So this game sounds like Bloodborne and Hunt showdown had a baby
What’s that Fatima player card from?
Ctulhu
Woohoo!!!
I'm torn between this or Dante!
Check out blood too
About to watch this. But FYI just finished cycle 1 of aeons Tresspass and loved it.
The reason it feels all over the place with different aesthetic visions is because it's AI generated "Art"
The fact that people are earnestly, positively comparing the art direction and aesthetic to Bloodborne hurts me.
@@danielmonks604 Only the main hunter looks like bloodborne to me, I was hoping the whole game was going to be in that victorian steampunk look
I mean its a prototype theres a reason video game devs dont make art until later in development ai is fine as a placeholder
@@jknifgijdfui This is the final art.
@@Noobwater source
Wait corruption is good?
lol wut no thanks. I want to play as the good guy
Boring. Classic AR stuff. High production value but gameplay has no legs at all. Especially not for that price point.
Yeah cuz nemesis, lords of Hellas and vanguard had no legs 🙄🙄
Easy pass.
looks like eclipse second dawn
In what way?
Sundrop gets worse and worse with each new game,AR really need to rethink their approach to it.
Im glad we got standee version as im done on tons of minis that just get in the way.
They do plan on having different colors though for different types of minis! Gonna assume the enemies stay red, but I do think that would potentially help cause certain colors look better imo like the tainted grail tan. The brighter it is, the more contrast and shading can pop out! The dark red here could stand to be a little brighter I think!
-Daniel
@@ShelfsideI paint a lot and so rarely opt for sundrop. However, I did pick up a sundropped Lords of Ragnarok. Yellow and green minis showed no shading at all and I had to do it myself.