"It is evident that a prophet, contrary to the common meaning of the term today, was very little preoccupied with the future, concentrating his message on the present and on the interpretation of the past.” Alberto Soggin, Israel in the Biblical Period, p.7.
This conversation reminds me of the parable of the Senior Patrol Leader, that I first heard 40 years ago. Basically it compares the President of the Church to a Senior Patrol Leader, with Jesus being the Scoutmaster. The SPL is still just one of the troop, they just have been given certain responsibilities. Just because they have the map doesn't mean they can't make mistakes, but following the person with the map is better than just wandering in the woods without a map.
I have learned it doesn't matter if the person who has the map doesn't know how to read it is worse than not having a map. Bad leadership is a terrible thing. Your prophet is a coward who doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face arguing and causing unnecessary contention....... Sounds like a false prophet by any metric.
@richarner3856 Pointless? Perhaps you misunderstood the parable? The point is that Prophets are just normal people with a few extra tools. Those tools do make a difference, but don't prevent the normal difficulties of life.
@bobicusrex Several apostles have either voluntarily left the church, or been excommunicated. The process for removing the president of the church is found in the D&C. In fact that was the topic of the talk Woodruff's quote comes from. The quote is often misunderstood because we have stopped reading the entire talk. It is clear in context that it is about no one person, even the President of the church, being above supervision. While the First Presidency has supervisory authority over GAs, the presiding bishopric has authority to call the prophet to task. It was a talk about checks and balances.
Regarding being infallible versus not leading the Church astray: I compare this to parenting. No parent is perfect, but a parent, who is doing their best to live the Gospel and teach their children so to do, is not going to lead their children off the path. Not leading astray is not equivalent to being perfect.
That is a great analogy that is not understood in the church. Our presidents believe and teach that they cannot lead the church astray or their lives will be taken. Brigham Young’s life proves that teaching wrong and yet we do not accept that and will remove temple recommends if you do not agree with the prophet.
I have seen a mother abuse her daughter into a godless marriage. Treating her daughter as a slave to be given to a man who doesn't love her. Basically modern sex slavery in the church. So your argument is equivalent to the priests of king Noah who had authority were right and Abinidi deserved to burn. Your prophet is a coward and doesn't seek God's council. Be careful what you preach.
What a great conversation! I loved the comparison to the constitution. It was written by a group of people after weeks of discussing (arguing) over points. Councils encourage inspiration.
I was taught the opposite growing up in the church. Councils were a bad thing. That is exactly how other churches messed up the gospel of Jesus or teachings of the bible. I was taught that is why there needed to be a restoration of Christ’s church, because councils messed things up.
Wonderful descussion! I really appreciate focusing on following the appostles and first presidency because they are authorized and ordained to operate in the offices of leadership not following because they are usually divey directed and only occasionally have mortal missteps. It is a burden put on by bad assumptions. Many struggled to believe the claims Christ made. Often the reasons why were he didn't fit expectations, He appeared to or did contradict existing beliefs. Jesus was the son of a carpenter in Nazareth and His hometown couldn't accept him. I think Christ while in mortality lived a very mortal experience, probebly most of the time. Christs divinity became more apparent as He fulfilled His mission but those who knew Him had the same faith challanges we have today. There is a good reason why Doctrine and covenants 5:7 says Behold, if they will not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you should show them all these things which I have committed unto you.
You really don't know your own church's leadership. They are cowards who hide and seek not God's council. They don't have faith enough to speak to God face to face.
@@bobicusrex Harkening to the council of the prophets brings me peace and joy and has helped me grow closer to my savior Jesus Christ who works through them. I have full confidence in the leadership of the church and see great evidence of the sincere genuine love they have for the savior and all mankind as manifest in their words and deeds. God be thanked for sending His servants the prophets to bless us with guidance and wisdom.
@worldkeyvideo9080 yeah such great love that Nelson doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face. Such great love that Nelson encouraged people to receive the mark of the beast 😁 what a faithful prophet
Very nice discussion. For whatever reason I’ve been blessed to believe and eventually to Know The Church is true. Primarily because of the Book of Mormon but also the feeling I have when listening to our General Authorities speak. And I love and embrace the fact that our leaders are human.
Hmmm 🤔 interesting cause I've been blessed by the spirit to know that the church is not true and your leadership doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face which means they are not prophets and apostles.
And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye-for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come. And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day. For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen. 2 Nephi 33: 10-15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Jesus Christ Matthew 13
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. 18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. 19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. 20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing? 21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing. 22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing. 23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come. 24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them. 25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ. 26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you. 27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men? 28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens. 29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men. 30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness. 31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him. 32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men. 33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. 34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved. 35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased? 36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved? 37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. 38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made. 39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church. 40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope? 41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise. 42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope. 43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart. 44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity. 45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail- 47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him. 48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
Great discussion except for one issue: if the priesthood ban was not a revelation, why did the Lord let it stand for so long, especially when the prophets were pleading with Him for years to change it?
It was a revelation. And the church taught it as doctrine for over a hundred years. Stuff like this is always a revelation and the word of God through his prophet. Until it isn't. And then we gaslight everyone into thinking it wasn't. We change manuals, update handbooks and put a large emphasis on modern day revelation and tell our members that "...unlike vintage comic books and classic cars, prophetic teachings do not become more valuable with age. That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets"
@@grantsuckow1145 The problem is, we don't know if it was or if it wasn't. Brigham Young said Jehovah decreed it and that no one but Him could change it. And Brigham famously didn't record his revelations because he didn't want the Saints to be condemned for not living up to them. But Brigham also believed that all knowledge was revelation, whether it came from God or someone else, including arithmetic, grammar, science, etc. That included ideas brought by speculation or discussion with close friends. So, we have no way of knowing whether he received a real revelation regarding it or whether it was something he came up with on his own. God does have a history of withholding certain gospel blessings, including the priesthood, from certain lineages for a period of time. Since black members from Fiji were able to receive the priesthood, but black members with African lineage could not, that suggests it was lineage-based, not race-based. So, it's possible, but far from a guarantee that that's what happened here. We also know that at least three prophets prayed over rescinding the ban for years, only to be told repeatedly, "No, not yet." President McKay was told to stop asking because it would not happen during his lifetime. Even President Kimball prayed about it for 15 years before being told that the time was right. So, clearly, God was using it to accomplish something, even if He didn't command it to begin. Likely, it was for the vast majority of the Church membership to be united in wanting the change. There's reason to believe it was a mistake made by someone who thought he was doing God's will, and there's reason to believe it wasn't a mistake and it really was ordered by God. There just isn't any clear evidence proving it either way.
@SarahAllen-no9op a prophet is only a prophet if they speak to God face to face as Moses. But like Moses if they do something without God's permission or recognition of God they are not a prophet at the time. The old testament teaches that a man can be in a position of prophet and not be a prophet. Do you think Nelson has Faith enough to speak to God face to face? Cause I know that he doesn't.
@@bobicusrex Where does it say in scripture that someone has to see God face to face to be a prophet? Are you saying that every person who has received the gift of prophecy has seen God face to face?
The Word of the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants, that temple goers covenant to live by, directly teaches that everyone can fail. A special revelation gives instructions for settling a controversy over the church President or one of is councilors. Thus none are exempt from being removed if they fail. Where? D&C 107:82-84 And Mark 9:40-48 is a second witness that an "eye" of the body (a Prophet) can fail and have to be cast out.
I have a different take on Wilford Woodruffs idea that God will not allow the prophet to lead people astray. This is in the context of them living plural marriage. He was shown that they would be destroyed for continuing the practice… He must have seen that God would even remove him as the current prophet out of his place if they continued. We can’t take that one line and use it exclusively for everything. But we also need to realize that one line is how God felt about this practice.
The teaching from Wilford Woodruff goes back to something Joseph Smith and other apostles repeatedly taught: that staying close to the Twelve and the main body of the Church would ensure that you don't drift into apostasy yourself, because they will never lead the Church into apostasy. He modified the wording, but that was a common idea among the early Saints, and he was just reminding them.
Moses made mistakes as prophet.... Prophets aren't infallible..... The priests of king Noah thought they had authority like modern Mormon "prophets". Abinidi would have spoken to God face to face ..... The "prophets and apostles" of king Noah burned Abinidi. The LDS Church's own scriptures condem the false prophet Nelson. He doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face 😊
@andrewdurfee3896 Nelson isn't a prophet he's a coward and doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face. He encouraged the saints to receive the mark of the beast. Please don't call such a despicable person a "prophet" he doesn't care about you he cares about his own ego.
@@bobicusrex your an accuser of the brethren and bearing false witness against the living prophet. I surmise that you are talking about the Covid 19 vaccine. He invited us to do our research and consult a competent medical professional as to whether we should get it or not. He didn’t give a blanket statement for everyone to just get the vaccine. He told us to do our on research. A lot of people don’t pay close attention to what he said including you. For some that meant they got the shot for others that lead them to not get it.
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"It is evident that a prophet, contrary to the common meaning of the term today, was very little preoccupied with the future, concentrating his message on the present and on the interpretation of the past.” Alberto Soggin, Israel in the Biblical Period, p.7.
This conversation reminds me of the parable of the Senior Patrol Leader, that I first heard 40 years ago. Basically it compares the President of the Church to a Senior Patrol Leader, with Jesus being the Scoutmaster. The SPL is still just one of the troop, they just have been given certain responsibilities. Just because they have the map doesn't mean they can't make mistakes, but following the person with the map is better than just wandering in the woods without a map.
Thank you for your pointless anecdote
I have learned it doesn't matter if the person who has the map doesn't know how to read it is worse than not having a map. Bad leadership is a terrible thing. Your prophet is a coward who doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face arguing and causing unnecessary contention....... Sounds like a false prophet by any metric.
@richarner3856 Pointless? Perhaps you misunderstood the parable? The point is that Prophets are just normal people with a few extra tools. Those tools do make a difference, but don't prevent the normal difficulties of life.
@brettmajeske3525 yeah but what happens when a " prophet" is a coward and doesn't have faith......
@bobicusrex Several apostles have either voluntarily left the church, or been excommunicated. The process for removing the president of the church is found in the D&C. In fact that was the topic of the talk Woodruff's quote comes from. The quote is often misunderstood because we have stopped reading the entire talk. It is clear in context that it is about no one person, even the President of the church, being above supervision. While the First Presidency has supervisory authority over GAs, the presiding bishopric has authority to call the prophet to task. It was a talk about checks and balances.
Another fantastic video! Thanks
Regarding being infallible versus not leading the Church astray: I compare this to parenting. No parent is perfect, but a parent, who is doing their best to live the Gospel and teach their children so to do, is not going to lead their children off the path. Not leading astray is not equivalent to being perfect.
That is a great analogy that is not understood in the church. Our presidents believe and teach that they cannot lead the church astray or their lives will be taken. Brigham Young’s life proves that teaching wrong and yet we do not accept that and will remove temple recommends if you do not agree with the prophet.
I have seen a mother abuse her daughter into a godless marriage. Treating her daughter as a slave to be given to a man who doesn't love her. Basically modern sex slavery in the church. So your argument is equivalent to the priests of king Noah who had authority were right and Abinidi deserved to burn. Your prophet is a coward and doesn't seek God's council. Be careful what you preach.
What a great conversation! I loved the comparison to the constitution. It was written by a group of people after weeks of discussing (arguing) over points. Councils encourage inspiration.
Yet it's pretty obvious that the "prophet" doesn't counsel with God.
I was taught the opposite growing up in the church. Councils were a bad thing. That is exactly how other churches messed up the gospel of Jesus or teachings of the bible. I was taught that is why there needed to be a restoration of Christ’s church, because councils messed things up.
Wonderful descussion! I really appreciate focusing on following the appostles and first presidency because they are authorized and ordained to operate in the offices of leadership not following because they are usually divey directed and only occasionally have mortal missteps. It is a burden put on by bad assumptions.
Many struggled to believe the claims Christ made. Often the reasons why were he didn't fit expectations, He appeared to or did contradict existing beliefs. Jesus was the son of a carpenter in Nazareth and His hometown couldn't accept him. I think Christ while in mortality lived a very mortal experience, probebly most of the time. Christs divinity became more apparent as He fulfilled His mission but those who knew Him had the same faith challanges we have today.
There is a good reason why Doctrine and covenants 5:7 says Behold, if they will not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you should show them all these things which I have committed unto you.
You really don't know your own church's leadership. They are cowards who hide and seek not God's council. They don't have faith enough to speak to God face to face.
@@bobicusrex Harkening to the council of the prophets brings me peace and joy and has helped me grow closer to my savior Jesus Christ who works through them.
I have full confidence in the leadership of the church and see great evidence of the sincere genuine love they have for the savior and all mankind as manifest in their words and deeds.
God be thanked for sending His servants the prophets to bless us with guidance and wisdom.
@worldkeyvideo9080 yeah such great love that Nelson doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face. Such great love that Nelson encouraged people to receive the mark of the beast 😁 what a faithful prophet
Very nice discussion. For whatever reason I’ve been blessed to believe and eventually to Know The Church is true. Primarily because of the Book of Mormon but also the feeling I have when listening to our General Authorities speak. And I love and embrace the fact that our leaders are human.
Hmmm 🤔 interesting cause I've been blessed by the spirit to know that the church is not true and your leadership doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face which means they are not prophets and apostles.
And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye-for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come. And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day. For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen. 2 Nephi 33: 10-15
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Jesus Christ Matthew 13
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.
25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.
26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.
27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?
28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.
29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.
30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.
31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.
32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.
33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me.
34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.
40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?
41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.
42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.
43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.
44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.
45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail-
47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
One of the best conversations/discussions I've heard on any point of doctrine. Well done ! It would have been great to have Jennifer Roach present.
We'll definitely have to get her to the next one!
What’s the difference between a church president prophet and a non-church president prophet?
Great discussion except for one issue: if the priesthood ban was not a revelation, why did the Lord let it stand for so long, especially when the prophets were pleading with Him for years to change it?
I don't know, and I don't know that it wasn't a revelation. I'm on the fence over it, personally, and I tried to say as much during the discussion.
It was a revelation. And the church taught it as doctrine for over a hundred years. Stuff like this is always a revelation and the word of God through his prophet.
Until it isn't.
And then we gaslight everyone into thinking it wasn't. We change manuals, update handbooks and put a large emphasis on modern day revelation and tell our members that "...unlike vintage comic books and classic cars, prophetic teachings do not become more valuable with age. That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets"
@@grantsuckow1145 The problem is, we don't know if it was or if it wasn't. Brigham Young said Jehovah decreed it and that no one but Him could change it. And Brigham famously didn't record his revelations because he didn't want the Saints to be condemned for not living up to them. But Brigham also believed that all knowledge was revelation, whether it came from God or someone else, including arithmetic, grammar, science, etc. That included ideas brought by speculation or discussion with close friends. So, we have no way of knowing whether he received a real revelation regarding it or whether it was something he came up with on his own.
God does have a history of withholding certain gospel blessings, including the priesthood, from certain lineages for a period of time. Since black members from Fiji were able to receive the priesthood, but black members with African lineage could not, that suggests it was lineage-based, not race-based. So, it's possible, but far from a guarantee that that's what happened here.
We also know that at least three prophets prayed over rescinding the ban for years, only to be told repeatedly, "No, not yet." President McKay was told to stop asking because it would not happen during his lifetime. Even President Kimball prayed about it for 15 years before being told that the time was right. So, clearly, God was using it to accomplish something, even if He didn't command it to begin. Likely, it was for the vast majority of the Church membership to be united in wanting the change.
There's reason to believe it was a mistake made by someone who thought he was doing God's will, and there's reason to believe it wasn't a mistake and it really was ordered by God. There just isn't any clear evidence proving it either way.
@SarahAllen-no9op a prophet is only a prophet if they speak to God face to face as Moses. But like Moses if they do something without God's permission or recognition of God they are not a prophet at the time. The old testament teaches that a man can be in a position of prophet and not be a prophet. Do you think Nelson has Faith enough to speak to God face to face? Cause I know that he doesn't.
@@bobicusrex
Where does it say in scripture that someone has to see God face to face to be a prophet? Are you saying that every person who has received the gift of prophecy has seen God face to face?
Bookmarking by topic would be nice.
The Word of the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants, that temple goers covenant to live by, directly teaches that everyone can fail. A special revelation gives instructions for settling a controversy over the church President or one of is councilors. Thus none are exempt from being removed if they fail. Where? D&C 107:82-84 And Mark 9:40-48 is a second witness that an "eye" of the body (a Prophet) can fail and have to be cast out.
I just wonder if anyone in the podacast has either prophesied by the spirit or have witnessed first hand someone uttering prophecy by the spirit?
Nope they think prophecy is pleasant platitudes.
I have a different take on Wilford Woodruffs idea that God will not allow the prophet to lead people astray. This is in the context of them living plural marriage. He was shown that they would be destroyed for continuing the practice… He must have seen that God would even remove him as the current prophet out of his place if they continued. We can’t take that one line and use it exclusively for everything. But we also need to realize that one line is how God felt about this practice.
The teaching from Wilford Woodruff goes back to something Joseph Smith and other apostles repeatedly taught: that staying close to the Twelve and the main body of the Church would ensure that you don't drift into apostasy yourself, because they will never lead the Church into apostasy. He modified the wording, but that was a common idea among the early Saints, and he was just reminding them.
@@stephaniesantiago1210 More people need to read the full talk. In context it is clear what he means.
I know that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet! (Sarcasm)
I know that Nelson isn't a prophet. He's too much of a coward to speak to God face to face. He was scared of the common cold.
Interesting
Moses made mistakes as prophet.... Prophets aren't infallible.....
The priests of king Noah thought they had authority like modern Mormon "prophets".
Abinidi would have spoken to God face to face .....
The "prophets and apostles" of king Noah burned Abinidi.
The LDS Church's own scriptures condem the false prophet Nelson. He doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face 😊
🤖
The prophet Russel M. Nelson is a true prophet. If you would like an example of a false prophet then Denver Snuffer would be one such individual.
@andrewdurfee3896 Nelson isn't a prophet he's a coward and doesn't have faith enough to speak to God face to face. He encouraged the saints to receive the mark of the beast. Please don't call such a despicable person a "prophet" he doesn't care about you he cares about his own ego.
@@bobicusrex your an accuser of the brethren and bearing false witness against the living prophet. I surmise that you are talking about the Covid 19 vaccine. He invited us to do our research and consult a competent medical professional as to whether we should get it or not. He didn’t give a blanket statement for everyone to just get the vaccine. He told us to do our on research. A lot of people don’t pay close attention to what he said including you. For some that meant they got the shot for others that lead them to not get it.