Odd take, is Saving Cheating? - I like Mil sims, 1 shot is 1 kill. I like Darkest Dungeon, it's a stress eating game sometimes. I don't like Stellaris, but it's Ironman mode shows some potential. I haven't played Fear and Hunger, but I like the idea of not being safe anywhere. I get that auto saves, checkpoints or whatever needs to be a thing. I get that Sandbox needs some compacity to save your data and progress, but Save Scumming isn't something I commonly do. The cases where I use Save Scumming most are in RPG games where the writing gets clumsy, language gets lost in translation, or the writers force you to take sides. Unfortunately, Sometimes Americanisms slip into games, where a line of dialogue seems almost ironic or sarcastic, but nope, it's in fact a hostile statement. I guess what I'm saying is, do we really need quick saves, gimme a well written game and I won't need to save every 5 minutes. Games don't need to hold our hands, and they shouldn't always pander to those unable to meet the skill requirements needed. Games frequently have difficulty scales, if you're struggling try turning the hardness down, if you're finding it easy turn the difficulty up. One interesting concept regarding saving comes to mind, limited save slots... The Kingdom Come Deliverance way, the save tonic, the item requiring money which is difficult to find at the start of the game, but slowly becomes easier and easier as more resources become available. The idea of save locations isn't a bad thing either; Deadspace always has a place in my heart (assuming it's not pinned to a wall somewhere.) - The tension is important, and games like Deadspace, Alien Isolation and any number of Zombie games sell themselves on this ratcheting risk vs reward system.
i "like" to "do" the "scumming" but "remove" the "c" 😂😂😂😂😂 in reality, pretty informative video, this did made me realize that they should really implement an auto-save after every floor encounter on Persona 3. sometimes you just die in the most bullshit way and lose like 30 mins of progress 💀
^ I like to get "perfect" or challenge runs of games; so if "perfect" or the rules of the challenge is entirely reliant on rng and id needlessly have to restart my entire playthrough dozens of times and tens of hours for a mere chance of it then nuh-uh. Not literally burning days off my lifespan for that. If it's a skill issue then ill usually like to spend time getting better at the game. Sometimes ill savescum just the hard part and get better at it and then move on so when i replay the game i can make further use of that skill and iterate.
@@Stampybampy Agreed, Stuff that is RNG heavy I will save scum tf out of it but skill issue stufff I'll play through the best I can. Even if some deaths feel a bit cheap occasionally
Save scumming to beat RNG skill checks is probably the biggest argument in favour of it being cheating. The whole point of RNG skill checks is that the odds are weighted depending on your character's stats (such as Speech/Charisma/etc when it comes to getting a favourable outcome in persuasion checks). If you want to enjoy the benefits of those skill checks you have to invest some of your character's points into those respective skills. By save scumming you effectively remove the need to invest points into those stats (being able to spend them elsewhere) WHILE ALSO getting the benefits they provide as if you had invested in them. It is quite literally cheating. Obviously, whether or not you want to cheat in a singleplayer experience is entirely your decision and nobody should criticise you for doing it, but I'd be hard-pressed to pretend that save scumming in that situation _isn't_ cheating.
@@arstulex tbh i dont think either of us were arguing against it being cheating but rather being cheap. And most of those contexts that you brought up are all skill issues that i wouldnt bother to savescum personally as aforementioned by myself. I was foremost referring to games where theres an inherent one in twenty chance that is... well, inherent, not something you can invest skill points in such as fallout. Im more than willing to savescum an rng check thats irrelevant to any and all skills present in the game; especially when it has to do with getting a specific ending or grinding certain achievements rather than replaying >10hours twenty times in a row. I need to be more responsible with my time than that when going for a "perfect" playthrough. Perhaps i should have been more explicit and specific
@@arstulex Alright, Riddle me this, Why did I fail a yellow speech check with a bobble head that increased my speech skill check chance, and 10 charisma
Adding to your last bit of having a personal ending: What I do is that I play the game once blind without knowing what happens and going along with my choices and on my second playthrough I save scum to see the different dialogues and endings. I think this way you get the best of both worlds.
In BG3 and Skyrim/Fallout etc I generally use it to see what happens on certain choices when I don't wanna wait 50 hours to start a new run. I think it can be cheating, but not always. But if death isn't too punishing on unfair deaths or save scumming is more punishing (on time) generally its not a thing that's worth doing.
Play the game using its features in a way that’s not against it !! That’s like saying you should only save projects every 1 hour because otherwise you’re work scumming
yes, it's cheating and I cant stop doing it, it literally ruins some games for me, like XCOM and Fallout, but also any RPG. I save after every battle won or after any equipment changes in FFT, its so punishing! I cannot loose anything by not saving, and it feels like an obsession with the optimal result and I cant enjoy the game mechanics. Talked to a friend and he said he never reloads a save in XCOM, i damn near had a heart attack!
No, it's not it's just how you choose to play the game. The "hardcore" crowd try to make themselves sound hardcore but they do it just as much as the ones they mock
@@derikhans Yeah but thats your choice, if you want to your have the free will to choose to or not. The only ones i can see an issue with is when people fake speedruns etc, but you can do that with video editing...
Well no. It's intended design. If the devs did not want you to save/load as you please, they would limit your ability to do so. Such as save points. If a game lets you save/load at your convenience, feel free to use it as much as you please.
I don't see it as cheating. I do, however, believe that all games are best experienced without any tactics like that the first time through. Like I think Baldurs Gate 3 is definitely a better experience if you let the dice decide your fate each and every time, but if you're playing it again and you want to experience different outcomes this time, then I get it. That's all there really is to it, but I would never call someone a cheater if they did it during their first playthrough. It's however you want to experience it at the end of the day.
I mean, by definition you _can_ cheat in a single player game. The question is whether or not it matters, to which the answer is clearly "no, it doesn't".
I don't think save scumming as a practice is inherently cheating, but there are situations where it can be used to cheat. It's basically a tool, and how one uses that tool dictates whether or not they are cheating. If a game provides me with a game-altering decision but doesn't give me the information to make an informed decision (or, even worse, keeps said game-altering decision a secret from me) I don't think it's unfair to save scum. Does it go against the developer's intentions? Sure, but the developer's intentions there are just kinda shitty in my opinion. In that situation, if I'm not save scumming then I'm just going to look up on the gamess wiki what impact certain decisions have anyway. All that's being circumvented here is the developer's shitty design, rather than any gameplay limits that enable me to be 'stronger' than if I hadn't save scummed. Where I think save scumming can become cheating is when it's being used to circumvent some sort of limiting design in some way. The best example of this I can think of is skill checks. In many RPG games you can come across skill checks, which is where you have a % chance to succeed a particular action based on your relevant stats. A common example is persuasion checks during dialogue with NPCs, where a stat such a 'Speech' would dictate your likelihood of succeeding. By save scumming these skill checks you can completely remove the necessity to invest in certain stats while still gaining the benefits they would provide in those skill checks. For example, you can succeed all of those 'persuasion checks' while being able to invest all of your points into other skills, essentially having your cake and eating it too. By doing that you gain a statistical gameplay advantage over somebody who doesn't save scum. Another situation where I would say save scumming leans towards cheating is when it's being used to circumvent a game's 'lives' system by reloading whenever you're about to die to avoid losing a 'life'. Though this is quite a niche situation as modern games don't really use 'lives' and the older games that do don't really give you the freedom to save and reload whenever you like. This mostly applies to the use of savestates when emulating old games I guess.
Yes. You may be free to do it, and it may even be your right in a single player game, but you are still using something outside of the rules of the game to alter the outcome - i.e., cheating.
หลายเดือนก่อน +2
hard disagree with that definition. savescumming is abusing savestates not using the save function as intended
Odd take, is Saving Cheating? - I like Mil sims, 1 shot is 1 kill. I like Darkest Dungeon, it's a stress eating game sometimes. I don't like Stellaris, but it's Ironman mode shows some potential. I haven't played Fear and Hunger, but I like the idea of not being safe anywhere. I get that auto saves, checkpoints or whatever needs to be a thing. I get that Sandbox needs some compacity to save your data and progress, but Save Scumming isn't something I commonly do. The cases where I use Save Scumming most are in RPG games where the writing gets clumsy, language gets lost in translation, or the writers force you to take sides. Unfortunately, Sometimes Americanisms slip into games, where a line of dialogue seems almost ironic or sarcastic, but nope, it's in fact a hostile statement. I guess what I'm saying is, do we really need quick saves, gimme a well written game and I won't need to save every 5 minutes. Games don't need to hold our hands, and they shouldn't always pander to those unable to meet the skill requirements needed. Games frequently have difficulty scales, if you're struggling try turning the hardness down, if you're finding it easy turn the difficulty up.
One interesting concept regarding saving comes to mind, limited save slots... The Kingdom Come Deliverance way, the save tonic, the item requiring money which is difficult to find at the start of the game, but slowly becomes easier and easier as more resources become available. The idea of save locations isn't a bad thing either; Deadspace always has a place in my heart (assuming it's not pinned to a wall somewhere.) - The tension is important, and games like Deadspace, Alien Isolation and any number of Zombie games sell themselves on this ratcheting risk vs reward system.
i "like" to "do" the "scumming" but "remove" the "c" 😂😂😂😂😂
in reality, pretty informative video, this did made me realize that they should really implement an auto-save after every floor encounter on Persona 3. sometimes you just die in the most bullshit way and lose like 30 mins of progress 💀
i hope you really did mean removing the "c" and not... "s"
@@serhiiko7141 😈
Bro is in love with summing, it's confirmed
@@serhiiko7141 😈
Depends on the game, Something like fallout i dont mind it as the skill checks and stuff like that is so RNG
^ I like to get "perfect" or challenge runs of games; so if "perfect" or the rules of the challenge is entirely reliant on rng and id needlessly have to restart my entire playthrough dozens of times and tens of hours for a mere chance of it then nuh-uh. Not literally burning days off my lifespan for that.
If it's a skill issue then ill usually like to spend time getting better at the game. Sometimes ill savescum just the hard part and get better at it and then move on so when i replay the game i can make further use of that skill and iterate.
@@Stampybampy Agreed, Stuff that is RNG heavy I will save scum tf out of it but skill issue stufff I'll play through the best I can. Even if some deaths feel a bit cheap occasionally
Save scumming to beat RNG skill checks is probably the biggest argument in favour of it being cheating.
The whole point of RNG skill checks is that the odds are weighted depending on your character's stats (such as Speech/Charisma/etc when it comes to getting a favourable outcome in persuasion checks). If you want to enjoy the benefits of those skill checks you have to invest some of your character's points into those respective skills.
By save scumming you effectively remove the need to invest points into those stats (being able to spend them elsewhere) WHILE ALSO getting the benefits they provide as if you had invested in them. It is quite literally cheating.
Obviously, whether or not you want to cheat in a singleplayer experience is entirely your decision and nobody should criticise you for doing it, but I'd be hard-pressed to pretend that save scumming in that situation _isn't_ cheating.
@@arstulex tbh i dont think either of us were arguing against it being cheating but rather being cheap. And most of those contexts that you brought up are all skill issues that i wouldnt bother to savescum personally as aforementioned by myself. I was foremost referring to games where theres an inherent one in twenty chance that is... well, inherent, not something you can invest skill points in such as fallout. Im more than willing to savescum an rng check thats irrelevant to any and all skills present in the game; especially when it has to do with getting a specific ending or grinding certain achievements rather than replaying >10hours twenty times in a row. I need to be more responsible with my time than that when going for a "perfect" playthrough. Perhaps i should have been more explicit and specific
@@arstulex Alright, Riddle me this, Why did I fail a yellow speech check with a bobble head that increased my speech skill check chance, and 10 charisma
Save scumming is much prefferable to replaying the same part because you made a wrong decision and you wanted to see what you missed
Adding to your last bit of having a personal ending:
What I do is that I play the game once blind without knowing what happens and going along with my choices and on my second playthrough I save scum to see the different dialogues and endings.
I think this way you get the best of both worlds.
In BG3 and Skyrim/Fallout etc I generally use it to see what happens on certain choices when I don't wanna wait 50 hours to start a new run. I think it can be cheating, but not always. But if death isn't too punishing on unfair deaths or save scumming is more punishing (on time) generally its not a thing that's worth doing.
Playing stalker made me do this before everything
Play the game using its features in a way that’s not against it !! That’s like saying you should only save projects every 1 hour because otherwise you’re work scumming
Yep
Bad saving system (and lack of any balancing) us what stops me from playing fallout 4 for any length of time
(Possibly) Controversial opinion, Saving before purposely doing somthig negative like killing a companion just to see is not save scumming
yes, it's cheating and I cant stop doing it, it literally ruins some games for me, like XCOM and Fallout, but also any RPG. I save after every battle won or after any equipment changes in FFT, its so punishing!
I cannot loose anything by not saving, and it feels like an obsession with the optimal result and I cant enjoy the game mechanics. Talked to a friend and he said he never reloads a save in XCOM, i damn near had a heart attack!
Hit the nail on the head. If a game rewards you for constantly saving, then there’s no risk or feeling of reward.
244 views?? aight well thanks algorythm! subbed!
No, it's not it's just how you choose to play the game.
The "hardcore" crowd try to make themselves sound hardcore but they do it just as much as the ones they mock
@@derikhans Yeah but thats your choice, if you want to your have the free will to choose to or not.
The only ones i can see an issue with is when people fake speedruns etc, but you can do that with video editing...
Well no. It's intended design. If the devs did not want you to save/load as you please, they would limit your ability to do so. Such as save points. If a game lets you save/load at your convenience, feel free to use it as much as you please.
I save scum on the normal cause I'm bad :)
I don't see it as cheating. I do, however, believe that all games are best experienced without any tactics like that the first time through. Like I think Baldurs Gate 3 is definitely a better experience if you let the dice decide your fate each and every time, but if you're playing it again and you want to experience different outcomes this time, then I get it. That's all there really is to it, but I would never call someone a cheater if they did it during their first playthrough. It's however you want to experience it at the end of the day.
i dont think you can cheat in a single player game imo, just have a different kind of playthrough
I mean, by definition you _can_ cheat in a single player game.
The question is whether or not it matters, to which the answer is clearly "no, it doesn't".
no, it's a single player game, do what you want. saved myself an 11 minute video.
I don't think save scumming as a practice is inherently cheating, but there are situations where it can be used to cheat. It's basically a tool, and how one uses that tool dictates whether or not they are cheating.
If a game provides me with a game-altering decision but doesn't give me the information to make an informed decision (or, even worse, keeps said game-altering decision a secret from me) I don't think it's unfair to save scum. Does it go against the developer's intentions? Sure, but the developer's intentions there are just kinda shitty in my opinion.
In that situation, if I'm not save scumming then I'm just going to look up on the gamess wiki what impact certain decisions have anyway. All that's being circumvented here is the developer's shitty design, rather than any gameplay limits that enable me to be 'stronger' than if I hadn't save scummed.
Where I think save scumming can become cheating is when it's being used to circumvent some sort of limiting design in some way. The best example of this I can think of is skill checks.
In many RPG games you can come across skill checks, which is where you have a % chance to succeed a particular action based on your relevant stats. A common example is persuasion checks during dialogue with NPCs, where a stat such a 'Speech' would dictate your likelihood of succeeding.
By save scumming these skill checks you can completely remove the necessity to invest in certain stats while still gaining the benefits they would provide in those skill checks. For example, you can succeed all of those 'persuasion checks' while being able to invest all of your points into other skills, essentially having your cake and eating it too. By doing that you gain a statistical gameplay advantage over somebody who doesn't save scum.
Another situation where I would say save scumming leans towards cheating is when it's being used to circumvent a game's 'lives' system by reloading whenever you're about to die to avoid losing a 'life'. Though this is quite a niche situation as modern games don't really use 'lives' and the older games that do don't really give you the freedom to save and reload whenever you like.
This mostly applies to the use of savestates when emulating old games I guess.
I save scum all the time especially in rng heavy games like Xcom, I’m not gonna miss a 90% shot and then get killed from 2 miles away in full cover
It is not
its not but you should still not do it unless you gotta
I think it depends on game. 🤔
Yes. You may be free to do it, and it may even be your right in a single player game, but you are still using something outside of the rules of the game to alter the outcome - i.e., cheating.
hard disagree with that definition. savescumming is abusing savestates not using the save function as intended
Who give a shit
@@saucefreakystyle the definition used completely ruins the point of the video
Yes, it's cheating. I still do it.
But saving to go on a rampage that you never intended to continue after isn't cheating.