I was a fabricator at boeing for a few years. Based on the knowledge of composites gained there, this design is madness. Glued joints under that much pressure, not to mention the carbon fiber. Absolute madness.
Narcissists are the perfect test pilot for crappy technology. 1) if it works, you have a new technology 2) if it doesn't work you get rid of a Narcissist. win win situation
And he fired every engineer that said his sub was subpar and only kept the one or two on that were happy to do what they’re told and collect a paycheck. I suspect once the estate is figured out in the next decade and the NDAs are no longer valid, those fired engineers will come forward.
You’re not entirely wrong, but the ocean environment is very very different than aerospace. Y’all outside the ocean environment think you know more than you do based on best practices for an entirely different industry. Stockton, an aero engineer, did the same thing. Ultimately this was a bad design, but for none of the reasons people like to list. If you understand the ocean environment, it was a “very intriguing” design due to the low net weight provided by the large size and lack of need for syntactic foam, ship crane, etc. The glued joints btw were quite possibly just fine. It’s confusing to me people are having such a conniption about that. We used glued joints in the ocean environment often enough. You have to remember that the deeper you go, the more the ocean is pushing the bottle shut. That doesn’t mean glued joints are always appropriate or that there aren’t QC concerns, but it is not grossly negligent. Carbon fiber is also probably just fine if you’re not load cycling it (which Stockton was) and if you’re doing proper QC (which Stockton was not). With the cost savings versus a traditional design, they possibly could have afforded to swap the hull after every dive and still beat the competition on operating costs. Anyway, it’s a stupid design but understand the same “hubris” Stockton had by thinking he could do Ocean Engr with Aerospace experience is being coincidentally repeated by so many folk here on the internet. Also, there are more airplanes that crashed in the sea than submarines that crashed in the sky, so really which camp would you rather trust.
I’ve worked with carbon and glass fibre and we always applied the layers in multiple directions. It adds significantly more stability and strength to whatever you make. Here the fibre was applied in one direction only, that’s really puzzling to me.
Carbon fiber COMPOSITE. Mate, I don’t care who has worked with carbon fiber. It doesn’t matter. At high pressures, particularly 4000m under the sea - you DO NOT use any composite material. You need an external hull that is homogenous and made of one material. You literally can’t have different parts of the hull experiencing different pressure values of compression and expansion. It was a doomed design. Period.
It was actualy a 0/90 lay-up (according to Composites World) but the 0 direction was filiment wound and the 90 was layed up with prepegs. But there was no post-cure or autoclaving. Plus, the only other composite pressure hulls in use today are all made of glass fibre and none operate below 1000m. Also, I think the layup on them is isotropic.
I feel like being a “legend” is not something anyone can ever label themselves, it has to come from other people. Same for genius. If you’re a real genius, the people around you should be the ones to say so.
It's sad that fathers signed death waivers so they could go gawk at a gravesite for their fancy dinner party conversation starters and it's sad too that any of the adults, including the 19 yr old's parents allowed him to sign a death waiver to go on what he thought was an adventure w/his dad.
In terms of Incident Investigation all tragedies are avoidable. It all depends on how much risk you are prepared to accept and how much money you want to throw at ensuring that tragedy doesn't happen. It's the old old "cost vs risk" analysis and it applies in all commercial applications.
The fact that the owner heard those loud gunshots. Every time they took a dive, should’ve been all the evidence he needed that the thing was starting to fail slowly, how could an engineer not see this or understand that’s not normal
Carbon Fiber was the perfect solution for the pressures they were dealing with. Assuming the pressure was on the inside of the sub. Carbon Fibers strength is when under tension. When the string is being pulled along it’s long axis. It is however string. It has no strength in compression. You can just ball it up like yarn. In compression the carbon fiber was doing next to nothing. All the strength was in the resin bonding material. It’s a miracle it lasted even one dive.
The biggest carbon fiber difference in airliners vs submersibles is that carbon fiber functions better when expanding from pressure inside out (as in passenger cabins at high altitude) than it does when contracting by being pushed from outside in (as in multiple atmospheres undersea).
Not to even mention any aircraft (or spacecraft, for that matter) is only ever subjected to a maximum of one atmosphere. At the Titanic wreckage, it's 400 atmospheres!
@@97marqedman. I just looked it up. Scuba tanks made out of carbon fiber. That would scare the hell out of me. Real tanks are banged around a lot. That’s the nature of a dive.
Yeah i was booked to go on but pulled out after having my engineers go over the designs extensively, and strongly encouraging me to think twice about this venture. Dodged a bullet there
There is something really rare and bizarre about someone like Stockton Rush, he clearly possessed a high enough level of competence and intelligence to get as far as he did in his profession and yet somehow managed to be so utterly reckless and naive that he will be remembered as a moron who's ego cost the lives of four innocent men. The tragedy of the Titan sub could be viewed as morality tale to remind us how dangerous an ego can be when it is not put in check.
He had the disposable money from his parents to go to college and get whatever degree he wanted. That doesn't necessarily make him smart. Any engineer that has taken a beginners material science class (which is a requirement for most engineering degrees) knows that fibers of any kind are bad in compressive scenarios.
@@rosscoyle4381 It is yet another great testament to most people's innate ability to see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear, in spite of all the evidence, even unto a near certain death.
Because the carbon was wrapped, it had ZERO strength in the fore/aft direction. The only thing preventing collapse was the epoxy alone, something it was totally unsuited for. I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did. A wise mechanical engineer once told me: "No one knows anything, the results speak for themselves." Indeed.
@@blu3savag355 I can't imagine the suffering and fear, however brief, of sitting in that death trap hearing the sounds that you were about to be imploded.
@@blu3savag355 @Dudeman9339 All the suffering was mental. If you read the transcripts from the dive between the sub and home base, after descending way too fast, they spent a good 20 minutes with alarms going off and that cracking sound, and they couldn't get the sub to ascend. 20 minutes of sheer terror.
To me, Nargeolet is the mystery here. His actions are hard to explain. He was knowledgeable and certainly well-connected to all these folks who claim they knew it would implode/was unsuitable/etc. Yet he lent it considerable credibility and ultimately gave his life for it. I’ve not seen any good explanation for any of that.
After a certain age you're willing to quietly tell yourself that you're willing to go down doing the thing you love. The guy was an expert on diving to the Titanic, it's what he knew and loved. Can't say the thought wouldn't cross my mind to "go down with the ship" I mean what else the old man gonna do? Go back to school for humanities or liberal arts?
@@Bosscheesemo I did see somewhere that he was grieving his wife and actually said something like that-but what of his obligation to the others? A 19-yr.-old kid sitting right by him? That still shocks me.
@@greggorsag9787 They all knew what they signed up for. It's cold, it's harsh, but that's beans. They all knew what could happen probably none more than himself. He's just the Jaques Coustea lookin' m-f that loves seeing the ship. You know what's going to happen to him sooner or later, or at least he's accepted the possibility.
Rhino liner can be used to keep moisture out but not under that crazy pressure lol I was an after market truck part installer for a couple years and rhino liners main purpose is to make a water proof layer on the metal exposed in a truck bed or wheel wells to prevent body rust . When it dries it is very hard and abrasive If the carbon fiber was crackling at those pressures ik the rhino liner had to be as well 🤦🏽♂️
The material of the Rhino liner is a good one to put on the outside. It is not going to be at all structural but it will prevent one type of damage that can happen to the tube. Rhino liner is flexible and a bit soft. Carbon fiber tubes are brittle. There is a thing about what happens at the surface of carbon fiber tubes when directly exposed to a fluid. The Rhino stuff spreads the force out at a microscopic scale. Ordinary paint actually works to do much the same.
I remember when they would tell us not to paint our motorcycle helmets because chemicals in the paint would cause changes to the base material. I can't imagine Rhino Liner signed off on something this his stupid.
I served in the U.S. Navy from 1992 to 1996 and was a sonar tech on the USS Henry M. Jackson SSBN 730. We did not use Rhino Liner anywhere on our ship and I was there for 5 refit periods. We had specially made hull paint that was applied in layers.
Yes that rhino liner thing sounded hokey. I can’t imagine the Navy using pickup truck bed liner material on multibillion dollar boats. 😂 Thanks for your explanation, and for your service to our country.
The Ocean Gate CEO and the old RMS Titanic Architect had the same character for being overconfident in their build & design, and they both ignored the obvious warnings & risks as well, they thought that their crafts are unsinkable. Yet, they both met their demise in the end.
yes it's a great background story and kept very intriguing with all those twists n turns and updates and the count down. it had all the hits. just like a movie innit? wonder what else was going on in the world whilst everyone was counting down their 'demise'. .
Engineering modelling suggests that the epoxy seals between the glass fibre and the titanium, as well as the acrylic viewing port, which was only rated to 1300m depth, were also major weaknesses.
Yes, any point of transition is a place where forces are likely to concentrate. In the pressure housings I have experience with, the bulkhead is significantly beefy and part of it extends inside the tube with a close fit. This means that under pressure, the tube comes down onto the lands of the bulkhead.
I'm from the USA & I'd never get in that carbon fibre coffin&theres no way id let either of my sons ages 26&20 to get in that death trap.May the 5 victims RIP for eternity& my condolences to the families especially the nineteen-year-old teenager that was killed
Midwest here 👋. Maybe Rush should have sold tickets to people who wanted to commit suicide. At least they could have gone out seeing something interesting.
Yeah i was booked to go on but pulled out after having my engineers go over the designs extensively, and strongly encouraging me to think twice about this venture. Dodged a bullet there
As a pleb member of Joe Public I would like to know how carbon fibre, which is only good in tension, is suitable for a compression situation? I looked with horror at the joining of the cylinder to the titanium ends - in draughty open warehouse with a hand mixed pot of glue......... Zero quality control in any way.
As someone who has assembled things that are flying in space, I completely agree. The open warehouse, laissez faire attitude, experimental materials, etc., then asking people for $250k each to test it.
If it was in a shape of a ball, maaaybeee the compression would enforce the materiak compact it more tightly together, like the glass that cracked in the other submersible and it withstood even greater pressure. But because this was a cylinder, it didn't stand a chance. Imagine the inwards pressure on the sides of the cylinder, deforming the submersible and that glued front, even with 17 screws tightening it (they said they avoided the 18th as a mathematically insignificant) won't hold shape anymore. If nothing else, then this.
The resin should have been mixed by machine then vacuum degassed to remove the bubbles, a procedure we used regularly when I worked at a resin lab many moons ago.
@@kar102030 Given what the guy had said about cutting corners , "safety only goes so far" "new design" on film, in the news, SM etc, it isn't hindsight, it's common sense. Lol. but I appreciated your humor)
Cylinders don't distribute stress well under massive compression loads. Use a sphere and design a craft within those limitations. James Cameron's craft was like a dart with a metal sphere enclosed inside for the occupant. On the Trieste submersible dive there was an explosive boom when an out plexiglass window cracked somewhere around 6 miles down. Both guys looked around and decided to continue down.
I once put six toy soldiers in a cardboard toilet roll tube and put it in the bath, tube just went all soggy but the soldiers were back fighting the next day, we didn't have carbon fibre back then.
What may be the most tragic thing about this doomed endeavor is that this could’ve been avoided if they had listened to all the experts warning them about this.
The strength of the carbon-fiber hull was actually the epoxy glue that was used as it was spun. The real strength of the carbon-fiber would have been internal pressure....not external.
In engineering terms, carbon fiber is strong in tension (when being pulled on) not in compression (when being pushed on). The strongest rope can lift a truck but if you push on the rope it can’t move anything. That’s why they can use it for compressed air tanks and planes which have higher pressure inside, not higher outside.
@@buckmurdock2500 Carbon fiber is incredibly strong under tension, but under compression is like pushing on rope. The way it's shown being wrapped means that under pressure, it's all in compression. The carbon fiber isn't doing much, the epoxy is providing almost all the strength.
Karl Stanley is an amazing professionalist and expert with anything connected to underwater. I can listen to him all day! True respect and love for him!
@@vjreimediaI’m sure your absolutely correct. So why didn’t he convince the owner of the Titan this was a disaster waiting to happen?! He acutely predicted what, why and how this terrible tragedy would happen and yet allowed 5 men to perish - one just nineteen years old. Why didn’t he approach the divers to warn them?! If he’s so knowledgeable and such an expert they would have listened to him and still be alive today.
Because he thought he could InNoVaTe out it's well known limitations. If he had done the many (unmanned) tests in a pressure chamber like he should've, he would have seen early enough that it doesn't last beyond a few dives.
It was the way the titanium domes & the carbon fibre tube compress & rebound that caused the failure. The two materials deform at different rates putting a massive stress on the glued joint between them. There was no way that the adhesive could cope with the differential movement of the two materials. A titanium sphere would compress & return elastically. But the adhesive joint was ripped apart each time the submersible dived as the carbon fibre tube deformed more than the titanium.
That's not the problem at all, the issue is carbon fibre doesn't handle compressive loads all that well and should never have been used for such an application. Titanium has some wonderful metallurgical properties that make it great for things like this, what this man is describing, these 'gunshot' like noises is stress fatigue, or in essence the carbon composite experiencing small, localised damage and beginning to delaminate. Over time this cumulative damage was ALWAYS going to result in this catastrophic failure, it was guaranteed.
This whole event was extremely sad. Just sad for all affected, but the safety concerns with this company over its sub construction was apparently always there. Known at least to individuals in the submersible world.
Stockton Rush rushed his project to build a sub named Titan to view a ship named Titanic that sank because of hubris and overconfidence, the same hubris and overconfidence that Rush had which led to the deaths of passengers. If irony was a person, it would be Stockton Rush. Edit: To be fair, the captain of Titanic was still a thousand times more careful than Stockton Rush. He was a very competent captain and it could be argued that that night was a lapse in judgement for his part however that still false in overconfidence. As captain, the lives of the passengers and your crew are in your hands. He still went full speed despite receiving the ice berg warnings and therefore the fault still falls to him. Granted, there are far more cowardly captains, with some even abandoning ships(like the South Korea ferry tragedy and the Costa Concordia disaster) while this captain went to go down with the ship trying to get the passengers out of Titanic, even trying to call back the lifeboats that were half full(though they did not return out of fear from being swamped). The captain died along with the 1,500. The whole story of Titanic is really sad and a story about loss. The significance of the Titanic wreck wasn't the wreck or the ship itself, it was the story and the message it had. A message for humanity not to repeat the same mistakes. And Stockton did just that. He repeated the same mistake, even a worse version of it completely missing the cautionary tale of the wreck.
Titanic didn’t sink because of hubris and overconfidence. It was normal for ships to sail at night in iceberg fields. They were always taking a risk and things just went badly for titanic.
@tradde11 partly true. They were sailing fast, but not "faster than they should have been" there was no speed limit imposed in the area and rational thinking of the day dictated they would spot the dangerous ice in time to avoid it. It is a common myth they were trying to reach port quickly. Captain Smith was not known to rush at the expense of safety. He was a well known, well respected and safe Captain. Titanic sank because the glancing blows she received caused water ingress into 5 compartments. Nothing more, nothing less.
@tradde11 Some believe they were softcore trying to set a record faster than their sistership, Olympia, more or less for good press. Others say it was it was because of a fire in a coal hold, so they were in a hurry to get to a port where it could be dealt with.
According to a retired submarine capt who accumulated the total of 7.5 years of his life underwater: "The coefficient for expansion & contraction of the three materials used, carbon fiber, titanium & plexy-glass, are all different." This makes the most sense as to why the sub imploded, all the materials used were working against each other, it was just a matter of time!
Note how he looks away before he's finished talking about that? Big tell, evasive body language. Deep down even he knew he was lying about it's properties.
Don’t forget, not only was it made of carbon fibre, but made of carbon fibre that was past its sell by date, and Boeing said was too old to use on a plane.
Yes, you have probably seen the footage of him bragging about the awesome deals he got or hacks he used. Those would hqve been great if he were building a sailboat he planned to use on a small lake.
In all probability the gunshot sounds were carbon fibres snapping under the pressure of the water leading to delamination ie the layers of carbon fibre separating from one another. The catastrophic failure of Titan's hull was inevitable as with each dive the delamination grew worse until it reached the point where integrity failed and the pressure of the ocean at that depth instantly crushed it the only mercy is that the five people aboard would not have felt anything as at the moment of implosion the air inside would have been superheated instantly vaporising all there soft tissue.
There's another really great video of this sub captain on another channel, where he's sitting on his dock. It's a fabulous interview, and was very eye-opening.
I have zero knowledge of submersible like millions of us but watching the way they glued the dome to the the carbon fiber hall( like peanut butter spread glue ) looks like what I do repairing a child's toy . Heartbreaking to see the smile of one engineer when this was done in there backyard garage witch eventually end the life of 5 human
As somebody who builds experimental aircraft, everything I'm hearing about this sub says that its construction was less regulated and subjected to scrutiny than the relatively simple biplane I'm building now. And when I get a provisional airworthiness certificate on it, I don't get to take passengers in it until I've done a whole lot of testing and flown off a lot of hours. This guy was using unapproved materials that the FAA would never have certified, and an FAA examiner or "Designated Airworthiness Representative" would never have signed off on any of them in a homebuilt airplane. So the airworthiness certificate would never be issued in the first place, and nothing would have left the ground until it'd all been corrected. This sub got nowhere near this scrutiny, and the people who built it were taking passengers almost from the start.
Carbon fibre is of course capable of surviving high pressures and it did, several times. The problem is that it degrades each pressure cycle, you can't really inspect it or fix it. It is a very stiff material, but it relies on a weak resin to keep it straight; otherwise it is so thin it will bend like uncooked pasta. A carbon fibre submersible is possible, but it's a one-time-use item.
Given the tech, design and build it was entirely possible it failed on first use. They never presume tested the container for the depths of the Titanic site. The quality control on the fibre construction was less than I've seen of high spec yacht builds, and those things only are ever designed for floating on the ocean.
@@Freebird555 Day 2, I'm all out of pasta. I've just realised lorijames5464 and soylentgreenb were probably talking about spaghetti or something, not the unbendable hard fusili things I'm accustomed to eating.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Thats complete crap. There's zero evidence (which is why you people NEVER provide any) the various organisations had hiring based mainly on "diversity". What they did do was hired young, and as this demographic is just more ethically and gender diverse than previous ones you end up with a broader range of people rather than trad engineering old white guys. The reason for the bias to hire inexperienced young people is because Rush knew he was way outside safe engineering design and didn't want any one questioning him. There was a PR cover for this going on about "diversity" which you're dumb enough to fall for, but it was like most PR by Tech Bros like Rush was (Rush was Nth Cal trust funder who made a ton of money from Silicon Valley venture capital ops, though he was never as successful as he claimed, the budget construction in the sub proves he lacked an unlimited funds) was complete BS. I know a bit about some of the firms he was involved with none operated "diversity" programs. He's like Elon Musk - it all PR with no substance behind it.
James Cameron said “carbon fiber is used in scuba tanks cuz its good for internal pressure not good for exterior pressure” Is take his expertise knowledge cuz he’s been building underwater subs since he was in his 20’s.
This cracking noise popped up the very first time it was used when Stockton Rush did it’s first test dive. He laughed about it. Oh, and Rhino Liner isn’t used on submersibles. It’s a spray-in bed liner for pickup trucks.
Very intelligent? He thought he could make every mistake in the book as long as he called it innovative and got several people killed because of it. He was a complete jackass that will be remembered for nothing but his hubris and over inflated sense of self.
@@HerrKapitanSebasI read that transcript and it was harrowing. But was it real? It’s not been verified has it, guess we’ll know more after the enquiry releases findings
every 1st year mechanical or civil engineering student knows that a carbon fiber cylinder is great as a PRESSURE vesicle, but can't be a reliable COMPRESSION vesicle. This is due to the simple fact that a carbon fiber is one of the greatest materials in tensile (stretching, like pulling a rope) but terrible at compression (why you can't push a rope.) If this "design" was so good, don't you think Navy(s) the world over would make submarines out of a thicker version? Nope, "carbon fiber" is a sexy term to most people because they have never laid hands on the material they keep hearing how strong it is....
It was the epoxy that held the hull together and from the very first dive those loud cracking sounds were the sounds of epoxy cracking in some layer among the many layers of carbon fiber. Each cracking sound was additional weakening of the bonding epoxy that would of course have to eventually fail under the insane 6000 psi pressures at those depths.
The way Stockton Rush set his company up showed how evasive he was being. Oceangate Inc is registered in Everett, Washington while Oceangate Expeditions is based in the Bahamas. Why? The Bahamas has much less stringent rules than the USA. The second point is this, why did he choose the tubular shape? To fit more people. Why did he choose 5 passengers? H.R.1159 - Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 103rd Congress (1993-1994). SEC. 4. SMALL PASSENGER VESSEL. Section 2101(35) of title 46, United States Code, is amended to read as follows: ``(35) `small passenger vessel' means a vessel of less than 100 gross tons-- ``(A) carrying more than 6 passengers, including at least one passenger for hire; ``(B) that is chartered with the crew provided or specified by the owner or the owner's representative and carrying more than 6 passengers; ``(C) that is chartered with no crew provided or specified by the owner or the owner's representative and carrying more than 12 passengers; or ``(D) that is a submersible vessel carrying at least one passenger for hire.''.
@@Zak6009 true, but the reason is much more likely because of easier regulations. Oceangate also states that if they are taken to court it had to be handled in the Bahamas. Clearly trying to skirt US regulations and liability. Oceangate looks like it tried to do more to protect itself legally than it put into the ensuring safety of the sub.
I have some experience with glass fiber based pressure housings. The main point in the design on them is the ends of the tube and how exactly they are done. When tested to failure it is almost always at some point of transition that fails. Coating the outside is a good idea but I would bet that the titanium ring to carbon fiber transition is the point where the failure started.
The glue that bonds the ring to the tube for me was an immediate red flag, what happens to the glue if exposed to high pressure water plus temp cycling? What if the water eats away the glue. This is also ignoring the fact that the tube has a large component that is also essentially harded glue.
@@blackmancer I worried less about the actual glue and more about what the glue was being asked to do. As temperature changes etc, the titanium and the carbon fiber will want to react differently. It looked to me like the glue was in a design that would make a pealing action.
I also have a vast knowledge oF glass( bravo!) The first time I broke all my mother's crystal drinking glasses I was grounded for a week! No more video games.
All I heard was, "glued to" this and "others don't think it will stand up to pressure" that and I'm immediately thinking NO THANKS. IF you are going to risk your life, at the very least, minimize every single risk factor. 😒
Carbon fiber is actually fairly strong, the problem is that it was used incorrectly. Fibers are great in tension like in a pressurized vessel such as an airplane where the inside pressure is higher than the outside. Not so much in compression such as a submersible where the outside pressure is higher than the inside. Effectively, the carbon fiber did almost nothing and the majority of the compression strength came from whatever resin they used to cast the carbon fiber.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw The problem with that design is that the corners and edges are going to be under compression. Every force has an equal and opposite reaction, so while the sides are in tension, the corners and edges are in compression and have to take far more compressive load then they would if you had a perfect sphere. Not only that, but a pyramid design has even less space available to it than a sphere. Meaning you need to make it larger than a sphere to fit someone which means more surface area and higher loads.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw The concave sides are pulling the edges inward while the water is pushing in on the edges. That's two forces (or three forces if you include two sides per edge) acting on the edges. Something needs to be in compression to prevent the corners and edges from collapsing inward.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw You pull on a string only at one end, the string isn't in tension because there is nothing holding the other side in place. If anchors on both sides of the string share the same body, that body needs to be in compression equal to the tension force in the string. It's simple equal and opposite forces. The sides of your design are the string, what in your design is preventing the sides from moving inward?
@@BobbyT-yj1cw What is preventing the points of the triangle from moving? You need an equal and opposite force to hold the triangle's points in place. If there's nothing preventing the points from moving, the system isn't in tension, it's moving. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about that. You're suggesting you can pull on a string at its center with nothing holding the ends and that somehow puts it in tension. Sorry, that's not how physics works.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw I honestly think you're trolling at this moment. You're using inertia to justify your wacky physics on a static body. Not only that, but arguing that instantaneous forces function in the exact same way as continuous forces.
What kills me, is Stockton Rush, regarding safety regulations and such, kinda poo-poo'ed the idea, like it was non-essential. HE said he was relying on "good engineering and logic." Now, I'm the daughter of an engineer, so I was raised to kinda question everything, and IMO this guy was NOT using good engineering and logic. I'm not an engineer but even I see the "logic" in NOT combining so many types of material, which are going to react to such great pressure in different ways. Now that I know more about what happened, I do feel sorry for his four passengers, but I don't feel sorry for Rush and his over-inflated ego, who couldn't abide by anyone telling him "no."
Being strings, carbon fiber is good for stretch type of load. Here, it was wound in cylinder, and the load is a pressure from outside. I believe the actual bearing structure is not even the carbon fibre, but only the resin. Which is even magnitude weaker
This people Didn’t die out while feeding the hungry... they died while living a FUTILE life ... The richest king said🤴🏻 “The greatest futility!” says the congregator, The greatest futility! Everything is futile! What does a person gain from all his hard work At which he toils under the sun? The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man" Eclesiastes 1:2 , 12:13,14
I have worked with pressure vessels whether that be with ASME standards or BS5500 and calculations are dependant of pressure and temperature and the stress figure at these variables to determine the thickness of materials to withstand the pressures. How on earth you detemind this with carbon fibre wrapped round like a rippon. These people who climbed into this sub where inteligent people, yet chose to dive deep under water. It staggers me why they wanted to go and do this. Very sad.
I think the excitement of the adventure itself got the better of them to the point that they were no longer thinking cognitively about safety. Now we know for sure Carbon Fibre is no good for human occupant submersibles. A lesson lived is a lesson learnt, except they are no longer with us to learn that lesson.
@@lancepage1914 When I pay $9.00 for a ride on a roller coaster, I don't ask the park owner if the structure was inspected recently (I may NOW though). Likewise, his passengers would have assumed that it was safe if only because the designer/owner was himself on board. No one expects someone to do what Rush did ; be so blinded by $$$$$$$signs he convinced himself he was right and all the people with 20,--30,--40 years experience were just jealous and wrong. Rush actually believed it was safe, or at worst thought that at the first sign of trouble , he could just dump the ballast and bob peacefully/safely to the surface. The phrase 'instantaneous catastrophic implosion' wasn't even present in his mind. It should have, because the TOTAL PRESSURE attempting to crush that brittle plastic pressure hull, was 425,000,000 lbs of FORCE, the weight of approx. 470 fueled and loaded Boeing 747s!!!!
@@lancepage1914the lessons were learned long ago. According to James Cameron, since the 1960s there have been no catastrophic failures to vessels of this type. Steel hulls are used for a reason. The lesson here is that one man's desires and hubris are not exempt from the laws of physics.
I was in sub in the Caribbean - it was in Aruba. I remember the guide saying less than a fraction of 1% of the population have been to the ocean floor at that depth and I can't imagine it was all that far down.
Hi, I was on the same sub trip in Aruba. If I remember correctly it went down to approximately 125 feet. It was an interesting little excursion but I'm not sure if I'd find the need to venture much deeper than that. Cheers !
There's a difference between tension and compression. When carbon fiber is used for high-altitude aircraft, the pressure is pushing from the _inside,_ which puts the carbon fiber under _tension._ Carbon fiber has remarkable capabilities for withstanding that. When used for a DSV, the pressure is pushing from the _outside,_ which puts the carbon fiber under _compression._ The ability of carbon fiber to withstand such extreme compression as that experienced by Titan is an unknown quantity because it hasn't been thoroughly tested under those conditions. Also, a cylinder does not have the intrinsic pressure-resistant properties of a sphere, the latter being the preferred - and far more logical - shape for the cabin of a deep-pressure vessel. The whole enterprise was reckless in the extreme.
criminal i'd say. They had no business taking passengers on an unclassed experimental sub, and certainly not advertising trips to the Titanic on their website aimed at the wealthy general public. Cameron and others who used experimental subs to go to deep depths never took passengers and were risking only their own lives.
Even hockey sticks are made with woven carbon fiber, and he couldn’t even manage that? If he’s going to ignore all the other downsides of using carbon fiber, the least he could have done was make it woven as strongly as possible.
This gets more depressing as we realize this wasn't an immediate thing. They probably heared banging cracking, all the lights were red. And knew something was wrong. I still only feel bad for the kid who didn't want to go though.
actually some banging was normal for this sub, Karl Stanley a sub expert rode on this sub and describes hearing banging like small caliber gunfire on the way down and back up, a CBS reporter who rode on the sub also reported the same and Stockton told him it was "the weaker carbon fibers breaking" and that the sub was stronger after the weaker fibers broke. Absolutely incredible.
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As a welder in the steel industry i learn that welded matrial would of been a great choice and they would of been able to dial back the catastrophic point
It's not ironic that both the Titanic's disaster and the Titan's were primarily due to intelligent people overcame by "negligence" leading to the death of innocent people who blindly trusted their competence..
I mean the titanic was a good ship it just got absolutely destroyed by that ice berg. This was a guy who said he was innovating as an excuse to be cheap
@@codypendency9482 of course for Titanic I didn't mean the Ship was made cheaply but people on that ship were negligent and in Titan's case it's gross manufacturing negligence.. btw Titanic did cut corners in safety like they could've carried adequate life boats but they didn't, used low quality rivets for front and back section of the Titanic's hull, decreased the height of the bulk heads leading to the less effectiveness of the water tight compartments..
He wasn’t making money. I’d wager renting that mothership on a weekly basis wiped out most of his excess funding. He just bankrolled his clients money to help fund his personal expeditions.
What was the fatal flaw of the Titan? Apparently, it was Rush. Heartbreaking. So many opportunities for him to have listened to thoughtful, informed, and experienced people.
Another point I have not heard discussed is that carbon fiber had tensile strength but in this application it would require compressive strength. Compression would tend to shear individual strands until the integrity was compromised.
I was a fabricator at boeing for a few years. Based on the knowledge of composites gained there, this design is madness. Glued joints under that much pressure, not to mention the carbon fiber. Absolute madness.
Narcissists are the perfect test pilot for crappy technology.
1) if it works, you have a new technology
2) if it doesn't work you get rid of a Narcissist.
win win situation
And he fired every engineer that said his sub was subpar and only kept the one or two on that were happy to do what they’re told and collect a paycheck.
I suspect once the estate is figured out in the next decade and the NDAs are no longer valid, those fired engineers will come forward.
Good news: Stockton isn't mad anymore.
You’re not entirely wrong, but the ocean environment is very very different than aerospace. Y’all outside the ocean environment think you know more than you do based on best practices for an entirely different industry. Stockton, an aero engineer, did the same thing.
Ultimately this was a bad design, but for none of the reasons people like to list. If you understand the ocean environment, it was a “very intriguing” design due to the low net weight provided by the large size and lack of need for syntactic foam, ship crane, etc.
The glued joints btw were quite possibly just fine. It’s confusing to me people are having such a conniption about that. We used glued joints in the ocean environment often enough. You have to remember that the deeper you go, the more the ocean is pushing the bottle shut. That doesn’t mean glued joints are always appropriate or that there aren’t QC concerns, but it is not grossly negligent.
Carbon fiber is also probably just fine if you’re not load cycling it (which Stockton was) and if you’re doing proper QC (which Stockton was not).
With the cost savings versus a traditional design, they possibly could have afforded to swap the hull after every dive and still beat the competition on operating costs.
Anyway, it’s a stupid design but understand the same “hubris” Stockton had by thinking he could do Ocean Engr with Aerospace experience is being coincidentally repeated by so many folk here on the internet.
Also, there are more airplanes that crashed in the sea than submarines that crashed in the sky, so really which camp would you rather trust.
Comparing Titan with a Boeing 737 Max 😢
I’ve worked with carbon and glass fibre and we always applied the layers in multiple directions. It adds significantly more stability and strength to whatever you make. Here the fibre was applied in one direction only, that’s really puzzling to me.
To save money is why. What a fool he was.
Carbon fiber COMPOSITE. Mate, I don’t care who has worked with carbon fiber. It doesn’t matter. At high pressures, particularly 4000m under the sea - you DO NOT use any composite material. You need an external hull that is homogenous and made of one material. You literally can’t have different parts of the hull experiencing different pressure values of compression and expansion. It was a doomed design. Period.
It was actualy a 0/90 lay-up (according to Composites World) but the 0 direction was filiment wound and the 90 was layed up with prepegs. But there was no post-cure or autoclaving. Plus, the only other composite pressure hulls in use today are all made of glass fibre and none operate below 1000m. Also, I think the layup on them is isotropic.
Not to mention the total disregard for the lifespan of the materials.
@@xivanquishix3456 Most likely. But not using the strongest application for the material seems rather stupid regardless.
Being a legend in your own mind can be a fatal flaw also.
Yep delusional
I feel like being a “legend” is not something anyone can ever label themselves, it has to come from other people. Same for genius. If you’re a real genius, the people around you should be the ones to say so.
@@Moon-zl4tv What about will smith in that one post-apocalyptic film?
@@hameed he died at oscars
Like every "influencer" ever.
Saddest part is that this tragedy was 100% avoidable.
It's sad that fathers signed death waivers so they could go gawk at a gravesite for their fancy dinner party conversation starters and it's sad too that any of the adults, including the 19 yr old's parents allowed him to sign a death waiver to go on what he thought was an adventure w/his dad.
It was completely avoidable if the passengers had consciousness how to splurge their wealth and curiosity. Pity, they were not generous spirits.
@@isabellind1292I agree 100%.
🎯
In terms of Incident Investigation all tragedies are avoidable. It all depends on how much risk you are prepared to accept and how much money you want to throw at ensuring that tragedy doesn't happen. It's the old old "cost vs risk" analysis and it applies in all commercial applications.
The fact that the owner heard those loud gunshots. Every time they took a dive, should’ve been all the evidence he needed that the thing was starting to fail slowly, how could an engineer not see this or understand that’s not normal
Overlooked for money.
Arrogance.
@@sjg5994 no doubt
@@loverofsunflowers 100%
Hubris and ego. That's why.
The fatal flaw was Stockton Rush and his mammoth ego .
The hull was a glorified plastic sewage pipe, not a deepsea submersible.
Literal pipe bomb
It was a sewage pipe indeed. It contained excrements hahahaha like the Pakistanis
Wasn't even a solid one material like a pipe,it was worse than that.
@@JustWalkingMan but bombs EXPLODE, cant be literal
@@LostandFoundTravel Thank you for correcting my statement. 🙂
Carbon Fiber was the perfect solution for the pressures they were dealing with. Assuming the pressure was on the inside of the sub. Carbon Fibers strength is when under tension. When the string is being pulled along it’s long axis. It is however string. It has no strength in compression. You can just ball it up like yarn. In compression the carbon fiber was doing next to nothing. All the strength was in the resin bonding material. It’s a miracle it lasted even one dive.
@@PhilAndersonOutsidethe biggest problem with carbon fiber bicycle parts (especially poorly made ones) is cracking and fraying of the weak point
Copy pasted
he should have refubrished the whole thing after 5 dives,that might have worked.
@@ppsarrakis Agreed, if by "refurbished" you mean "thrown away and built another one".
@@Numeriwarno its not
The biggest carbon fiber difference in airliners vs submersibles is that carbon fiber functions better when expanding from pressure inside out (as in passenger cabins at high altitude) than it does when contracting by being pushed from outside in (as in multiple atmospheres undersea).
Yes sir! This is exactly why we use these materials for scuba and SCBA air tanks. It’s incredibly strong under tension, not so much under compression.
Not to even mention any aircraft (or spacecraft, for that matter) is only ever subjected to a maximum of one atmosphere. At the Titanic wreckage, it's 400 atmospheres!
@@97marqedman. I just looked it up. Scuba tanks made out of carbon fiber. That would scare the hell out of me. Real tanks are banged around a lot. That’s the nature of a dive.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw
Great analogy/explanation.
Yeah i was booked to go on but pulled out after having my engineers go over the designs extensively, and strongly encouraging me to think twice about this venture. Dodged a bullet there
There is something really rare and bizarre about someone like Stockton Rush, he clearly possessed a high enough level of competence and intelligence to get as far as he did in his profession and yet somehow managed to be so utterly reckless and naive that he will be remembered as a moron who's ego cost the lives of four innocent men. The tragedy of the Titan sub could be viewed as morality tale to remind us how dangerous an ego can be when it is not put in check.
He had the disposable money from his parents to go to college and get whatever degree he wanted. That doesn't necessarily make him smart. Any engineer that has taken a beginners material science class (which is a requirement for most engineering degrees) knows that fibers of any kind are bad in compressive scenarios.
Just because you are intelligent does not mean you also have common sense
Greed
"Twas hubris killed the billionaires."
Well said!!
Stockton gives the impression of an arrogantly, reckless person. Too dangerous a mindset to be involved in this type of industry
Absolutely agree
That should have been obvious to anyone talking to him about going down in his death mobile.
@@Ace96x10 He was probably so convinced of his own BS, others felt he could be trusted. Especially novice adventurers.
@@rosscoyle4381 It is yet another great testament to most people's innate ability to see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear, in spite of all the evidence, even unto a near certain death.
Well... You solved that... Well done, Cpt. Hindsight
Because the carbon was wrapped, it had ZERO strength in the fore/aft direction. The only thing preventing collapse was the epoxy alone, something it was totally unsuited for. I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did. A wise mechanical engineer once told me: "No one knows anything, the results speak for themselves." Indeed.
I mean, they had super fancy acoustic sensors to tell them it was going to fail though. As they ignored gunshot level noises during their dives lol.
And can you believe that some people think they actually suffered?
No… because its CARBON FIBER it has no strength in compression, only tension.
@@blu3savag355 I can't imagine the suffering and fear, however brief, of sitting in that death trap hearing the sounds that you were about to be imploded.
@@blu3savag355 @Dudeman9339 All the suffering was mental. If you read the transcripts from the dive between the sub and home base, after descending way too fast, they spent a good 20 minutes with alarms going off and that cracking sound, and they couldn't get the sub to ascend. 20 minutes of sheer terror.
To me, Nargeolet is the mystery here. His actions are hard to explain. He was knowledgeable and certainly well-connected to all these folks who claim they knew it would implode/was unsuitable/etc. Yet he lent it considerable credibility and ultimately gave his life for it. I’ve not seen any good explanation for any of that.
Rush pulled the wool over his eyes
After a certain age you're willing to quietly tell yourself that you're willing to go down doing the thing you love. The guy was an expert on diving to the Titanic, it's what he knew and loved. Can't say the thought wouldn't cross my mind to "go down with the ship"
I mean what else the old man gonna do? Go back to school for humanities or liberal arts?
@@Bosscheesemo I did see somewhere that he was grieving his wife and actually said something like that-but what of his obligation to the others? A 19-yr.-old kid sitting right by him? That still shocks me.
@@greggorsag9787
They all knew what they signed up for. It's cold, it's harsh, but that's beans. They all knew what could happen probably none more than himself. He's just the Jaques Coustea lookin' m-f that loves seeing the ship. You know what's going to happen to him sooner or later, or at least he's accepted the possibility.
@@greggorsag9787If he was fatalistic (and I have no clue if that’s true) he simply may not have cared about about the other people with him.
As a US Navy Deep Submersible Submariner this was absolutely insane!
This guy is beautifully spoken. Honestly good to here this simply explained. 🌹🇭🇲
Rhino liner can be used to keep moisture out but not under that crazy pressure lol I was an after market truck part installer for a couple years and rhino liners main purpose is to make a water proof layer on the metal exposed in a truck bed or wheel wells to prevent body rust . When it dries it is very hard and abrasive If the carbon fiber was crackling at those pressures ik the rhino liner had to be as well 🤦🏽♂️
at some point it was just the rhino liner holding back the deep ocean.
The material of the Rhino liner is a good one to put on the outside. It is not going to be at all structural but it will prevent one type of damage that can happen to the tube. Rhino liner is flexible and a bit soft. Carbon fiber tubes are brittle. There is a thing about what happens at the surface of carbon fiber tubes when directly exposed to a fluid. The Rhino stuff spreads the force out at a microscopic scale. Ordinary paint actually works to do much the same.
My truck has a Rhino liner in the bed. I didn't know they used it on submersibles.
@@3482-h8c It gets used in a lot of weird places. It is tough and flexible.
I remember when they would tell us not to paint our motorcycle helmets because chemicals in the paint would cause changes to the base material.
I can't imagine Rhino Liner signed off on something this his stupid.
I served in the U.S. Navy from 1992 to 1996 and was a sonar tech on the USS Henry M. Jackson SSBN 730. We did not use Rhino Liner anywhere on our ship and I was there for 5 refit periods. We had specially made hull paint that was applied in layers.
Yes that rhino liner thing sounded hokey. I can’t imagine the Navy using pickup truck bed liner material on multibillion dollar boats. 😂
Thanks for your explanation, and for your service to our country.
Watching old footage of rush in a helmet slapping the sub talking about how well its built in a Helmet makes him look mentaly challanged now.
The Ocean Gate CEO and the old RMS Titanic Architect had the same character for being overconfident in their build & design, and they both ignored the obvious warnings & risks as well, they thought that their crafts are unsinkable. Yet, they both met their demise in the end.
they're burning in hell now for what they've done
yes it's a great background story and kept very intriguing with all those twists n turns and updates and the count down. it had all the hits. just like a movie innit? wonder what else was going on in the world whilst everyone was counting down their 'demise'. .
Engineering modelling suggests that the epoxy seals between the glass fibre and the titanium, as well as the acrylic viewing port, which was only rated to 1300m depth, were also major weaknesses.
Yes, any point of transition is a place where forces are likely to concentrate. In the pressure housings I have experience with, the bulkhead is significantly beefy and part of it extends inside the tube with a close fit. This means that under pressure, the tube comes down onto the lands of the bulkhead.
On some close up shots of the outside of the viewport, small cracks are visible around it's edges, they are not visible from the inside.
I'm from the USA & I'd never get in that carbon fibre coffin&theres no way id let either of my sons ages 26&20 to get in that death trap.May the 5 victims RIP for eternity& my condolences to the families especially the nineteen-year-old teenager that was killed
Midwest here 👋. Maybe Rush should have sold tickets to people who wanted to commit suicide. At least they could have gone out seeing something interesting.
@@thenightporter 10-4 on that & 👋from Louisiana(Northeast part)
Yeah i was booked to go on but pulled out after having my engineers go over the designs extensively, and strongly encouraging me to think twice about this venture. Dodged a bullet there
As a pleb member of Joe Public I would like to know how carbon fibre, which is only good in tension, is suitable for a compression situation? I looked with horror at the joining of the cylinder to the titanium ends - in draughty open warehouse with a hand mixed pot of glue......... Zero quality control in any way.
As someone who has assembled things that are flying in space, I completely agree. The open warehouse, laissez faire attitude, experimental materials, etc., then asking people for $250k each to test it.
If it was in a shape of a ball, maaaybeee the compression would enforce the materiak compact it more tightly together, like the glass that cracked in the other submersible and it withstood even greater pressure. But because this was a cylinder, it didn't stand a chance. Imagine the inwards pressure on the sides of the cylinder, deforming the submersible and that glued front, even with 17 screws tightening it (they said they avoided the 18th as a mathematically insignificant) won't hold shape anymore. If nothing else, then this.
The resin should have been mixed by machine then vacuum degassed to remove the bubbles, a procedure we used regularly when I worked at a resin lab many moons ago.
It's horrible that anyone would even consider going anywhere near his death mobile after researching him, or talking to him.
Great thinking, Cpt. Hindsight
@@kar102030why so rude wtf
@@Nursegirlalexandra real classy name
@@kar102030 Given what the guy had said about cutting corners , "safety only goes so far" "new design" on film, in the news, SM etc, it isn't hindsight, it's common sense. Lol. but I appreciated your humor)
Monday morning quarterbacks are the best!
Cylinders don't distribute stress well under massive compression loads. Use a sphere and design a craft within those limitations. James Cameron's craft was like a dart with a metal sphere enclosed inside for the occupant. On the Trieste submersible dive there was an explosive boom when an out plexiglass window cracked somewhere around 6 miles down. Both guys looked around and decided to continue down.
@randmayfield5695 I think it was 2.3 miles down, no?
@@HeeBeeGB They say the outer plexiglass window cracked at about 30,000 feet. Roughly 30,000 ÷ 5280= 5.68 miles. Quite a bit deeper than 2.3 miles.
I believe it’s because they knew that if it had sprung a leak, they’d already be dead.
I once put six toy soldiers in a cardboard toilet roll tube and put it in the bath, tube just went all soggy but the soldiers were back fighting the next day, we didn't have carbon fibre back then.
What may be the most tragic thing about this doomed endeavor is that this could’ve been avoided if they had listened to all the experts warning them about this.
Stockton Rushdesign.
The strength of the carbon-fiber hull was actually the epoxy glue that was used as it was spun. The real strength of the carbon-fiber would have been internal pressure....not external.
In engineering terms, carbon fiber is strong in tension (when being pulled on) not in compression (when being pushed on). The strongest rope can lift a truck but if you push on the rope it can’t move anything. That’s why they can use it for compressed air tanks and planes which have higher pressure inside, not higher outside.
That's some badass epoxy, if they would have left out all that pesky carbon fiber and just made an epoxy pressure hull they might still be alive.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Should have just used 10" of concrete with rebar.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 epoxy does not have strength until it's reinforced with fibers of some sort.
@@buckmurdock2500 Carbon fiber is incredibly strong under tension, but under compression is like pushing on rope. The way it's shown being wrapped means that under pressure, it's all in compression. The carbon fiber isn't doing much, the epoxy is providing almost all the strength.
Karl Stanley is an amazing professionalist and expert with anything connected to underwater. I can listen to him all day! True respect and love for him!
He is an arrogant gay dude.
@@vjreimediahe's knowledgeable, has 10s of thousands of hours piloting and building submersibles, your opinion makes you sound like a triggered bigot.
hes an actor
@@vjreimedia😂😂
@@vjreimediaI’m sure your absolutely correct. So why didn’t he convince the owner of the Titan this was a disaster waiting to happen?! He acutely predicted what, why and how this terrible tragedy would happen and yet allowed 5 men to perish - one just nineteen years old. Why didn’t he approach the divers to warn them?! If he’s so knowledgeable and such an expert they would have listened to him and still be alive today.
So it was just a basic fact that Stockton rush ignored. Carbon fibre isn't suitable for the purpose.
Because he thought he could InNoVaTe out it's well known limitations. If he had done the many (unmanned) tests in a pressure chamber like he should've, he would have seen early enough that it doesn't last beyond a few dives.
Yeah...but besides THAT....!!??
Steel is better than carbon fiber, end of the story
Yup and he knew it but instead of using something else he just said "innovative" 5,000 times.
carbon good on a car wing driving to pub...not so good 5000m down in sub
It was the way the titanium domes & the carbon fibre tube compress & rebound that caused the failure. The two materials deform at different rates putting a massive stress on the glued joint between them.
There was no way that the adhesive could cope with the differential movement of the two materials.
A titanium sphere would compress & return elastically. But the adhesive joint was ripped apart each time the submersible dived as the carbon fibre tube deformed more than the titanium.
That's not the problem at all, the issue is carbon fibre doesn't handle compressive loads all that well and should never have been used for such an application. Titanium has some wonderful metallurgical properties that make it great for things like this, what this man is describing, these 'gunshot' like noises is stress fatigue, or in essence the carbon composite experiencing small, localised damage and beginning to delaminate. Over time this cumulative damage was ALWAYS going to result in this catastrophic failure, it was guaranteed.
I would have walked away when he said "glued together."
This whole event was extremely sad. Just sad for all affected, but the safety concerns with this company over its sub construction was apparently always there. Known at least to individuals in the submersible world.
Stockton Rush wanted to be remembered as an innovator. He will be remembered, but not the way he hoped for.
Stockton Rush rushed his project to build a sub named Titan to view a ship named Titanic that sank because of hubris and overconfidence, the same hubris and overconfidence that Rush had which led to the deaths of passengers. If irony was a person, it would be Stockton Rush.
Edit: To be fair, the captain of Titanic was still a thousand times more careful than Stockton Rush. He was a very competent captain and it could be argued that that night was a lapse in judgement for his part however that still false in overconfidence. As captain, the lives of the passengers and your crew are in your hands. He still went full speed despite receiving the ice berg warnings and therefore the fault still falls to him. Granted, there are far more cowardly captains, with some even abandoning ships(like the South Korea ferry tragedy and the Costa Concordia disaster) while this captain went to go down with the ship trying to get the passengers out of Titanic, even trying to call back the lifeboats that were half full(though they did not return out of fear from being swamped). The captain died along with the 1,500. The whole story of Titanic is really sad and a story about loss. The significance of the Titanic wreck wasn't the wreck or the ship itself, it was the story and the message it had. A message for humanity not to repeat the same mistakes. And Stockton did just that. He repeated the same mistake, even a worse version of it completely missing the cautionary tale of the wreck.
Exactly ‼️‼️The irony is so thick, you could cut it with a knife...
@@Confucius_Says... He rushed it? You realize the Titan had been on 6 previous dives before this one.
Titanic didn’t sink because of hubris and overconfidence. It was normal for ships to sail at night in iceberg fields. They were always taking a risk and things just went badly for titanic.
@tradde11 partly true. They were sailing fast, but not "faster than they should have been" there was no speed limit imposed in the area and rational thinking of the day dictated they would spot the dangerous ice in time to avoid it.
It is a common myth they were trying to reach port quickly. Captain Smith was not known to rush at the expense of safety. He was a well known, well respected and safe Captain.
Titanic sank because the glancing blows she received caused water ingress into 5 compartments. Nothing more, nothing less.
@tradde11 Some believe they were softcore trying to set a record faster than their sistership, Olympia, more or less for good press. Others say it was it was because of a fire in a coal hold, so they were in a hurry to get to a port where it could be dealt with.
According to a retired submarine capt who accumulated the total of 7.5 years of his life underwater: "The coefficient for expansion & contraction of the three materials used, carbon fiber, titanium & plexy-glass, are all different." This makes the most sense as to why the sub imploded, all the materials used were working against each other, it was just a matter of time!
Those loud gunshot like noises are the "Everything is okay" alarm. When you stop hearing them...well.
Love the bit where he is proud as punch about the outside being sprayed in rhino liner! 😂😂😂 Too much coke, not enough thought.
Note how he looks away before he's finished talking about that? Big tell, evasive body language. Deep down even he knew he was lying about it's properties.
forgot to mention the JB weld applied with a cake spatula
Don’t forget, not only was it made of carbon fibre, but made of carbon fibre that was past its sell by date, and Boeing said was too old to use on a plane.
😲 I didn't know that!
Yes, you have probably seen the footage of him bragging about the awesome deals he got or hacks he used. Those would hqve been great if he were building a sailboat he planned to use on a small lake.
In all probability the gunshot sounds were carbon fibres snapping under the pressure of the water leading to delamination ie the layers of carbon fibre separating from one another. The catastrophic failure of Titan's hull was inevitable as with each dive the delamination grew worse until it reached the point where integrity failed and the pressure of the ocean at that depth instantly crushed it the only mercy is that the five people aboard would not have felt anything as at the moment of implosion the air inside would have been superheated instantly vaporising all there soft tissue.
mayby might be banging by the people inside
Didn't feel at the exact death moment, but did suffered and experienced terror, shock, stress, hopelessness...worst kind of death.
@@TheMoonObserver They would have been killed instantaneously by the pressure and the walls of the sub crushing them.
Not exactly. That's what we are told to believe. They were more than likely squeezed out of the tube like toothpaste.
What did the engineer mean when he said that "the opposite is true with metal". Does the metal hull get stronger with each dive?
There's another really great video of this sub captain on another channel, where he's sitting on his dock. It's a fabulous interview, and was very eye-opening.
Considering that Bahamas interview (dock interview) was out within a week (approximately) of the implosion, his honesty was mind blowing.
With steel and titanium, engineers can know the exact limitations and hence making out a safe submersible.
That's the whole point.
I have zero knowledge of submersible like millions of us but watching the way they glued the dome to the the carbon fiber hall( like peanut butter spread glue ) looks like what I do repairing a child's toy . Heartbreaking to see the smile of one engineer when this was done in there backyard garage witch eventually end the life of 5 human
you are more smart then those engineers tho
u dont need knowlege. u just need common sense. rush flew to las vegas to try to pitch to these people
The fatal flaw was EGO.
This!
As somebody who builds experimental aircraft, everything I'm hearing about this sub says that its construction was less regulated and subjected to scrutiny than the relatively simple biplane I'm building now. And when I get a provisional airworthiness certificate on it, I don't get to take passengers in it until I've done a whole lot of testing and flown off a lot of hours. This guy was using unapproved materials that the FAA would never have certified, and an FAA examiner or "Designated Airworthiness Representative" would never have signed off on any of them in a homebuilt airplane. So the airworthiness certificate would never be issued in the first place, and nothing would have left the ground until it'd all been corrected. This sub got nowhere near this scrutiny, and the people who built it were taking passengers almost from the start.
Carbon fibre is of course capable of surviving high pressures and it did, several times. The problem is that it degrades each pressure cycle, you can't really inspect it or fix it. It is a very stiff material, but it relies on a weak resin to keep it straight; otherwise it is so thin it will bend like uncooked pasta. A carbon fibre submersible is possible, but it's a one-time-use item.
Given the tech, design and build it was entirely possible it failed on first use. They never presume tested the container for the depths of the Titanic site. The quality control on the fibre construction was less than I've seen of high spec yacht builds, and those things only are ever designed for floating on the ocean.
Only cooked pasta bends
@@Freebird555 Day 2, I'm all out of pasta. I've just realised lorijames5464 and soylentgreenb were probably talking about spaghetti or something, not the unbendable hard fusili things I'm accustomed to eating.
He would play music on the dives (perhaps) to cover up the cracking sounds (of the hull) from the passengers.
Source??
What gets me is that there was actually a team that put this sub together. This was not just one man.
That's what happens when you hire based on diversity.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Thats complete crap. There's zero evidence (which is why you people NEVER provide any) the various organisations had hiring based mainly on "diversity". What they did do was hired young, and as this demographic is just more ethically and gender diverse than previous ones you end up with a broader range of people rather than trad engineering old white guys. The reason for the bias to hire inexperienced young people is because Rush knew he was way outside safe engineering design and didn't want any one questioning him.
There was a PR cover for this going on about "diversity" which you're dumb enough to fall for, but it was like most PR by Tech Bros like Rush was (Rush was Nth Cal trust funder who made a ton of money from Silicon Valley venture capital ops, though he was never as successful as he claimed, the budget construction in the sub proves he lacked an unlimited funds) was complete BS. I know a bit about some of the firms he was involved with none operated "diversity" programs.
He's like Elon Musk - it all PR with no substance behind it.
He fired everyone who warned him about the sub's problems and hired a bunch of yes-men to just did what he told them to do
@@alison__16 exactly
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Did you see his crew? They were all white.
Wow! Than’ you for the very clean explanation!! Great job!!
"glued" says it all. no way im getting in a vehicle to go under the sea thats been glued together
The Titan should have used titanium...no pun intended.
If it were used titanium steel, would it make the titan more safe as it would not cause an implosion?
Cycles to failure, like metal fatigue when bending fence wire to break it.... it accumulates and then catastrophic failure.
James Cameron said “carbon fiber is used in scuba tanks cuz its good for internal pressure not good for exterior pressure” Is take his expertise knowledge cuz he’s been building underwater subs since he was in his 20’s.
Thank you for not shutting comments off. Please do this with all of your videos.
This cracking noise popped up the very first time it was used when Stockton Rush did it’s first test dive. He laughed about it.
Oh, and Rhino Liner isn’t used on submersibles. It’s a spray-in bed liner for pickup trucks.
aT 2:44 look at the air bubbles and unevenness under that carbon fiber wrap...
OH, Gawd!
@@Smedley1947 Squeeze all those bubbles under extreme high pressure and they want to come out at both ends where those rings were. Pop!
I'm glad someone from OceanGate came forward and confirmed what everyone is saying about the sub here.
Stockton Rush was a very intelligent man who let his hubris and arrogance turn himself and 4 innocent people into deep sea mush.
That submersible imploded so fast that Rush still thinks he's descending to the Titanic; winning.
Very intelligent? He thought he could make every mistake in the book as long as he called it innovative and got several people killed because of it. He was a complete jackass that will be remembered for nothing but his hubris and over inflated sense of self.
"very intelligent" yeah that part was also his arrogance..
@@HerrKapitanSebasI read that transcript and it was harrowing. But was it real? It’s not been verified has it, guess we’ll know more after the enquiry releases findings
i had to look up what hubris meant. lol
Hearing the word “glued” is all you need to know. If you’ve ever seen a fiberglass tank the fibers go in multiple directions
Pushing boundaries is a bit more noble when it's done in service of humanity instead of profiting from it.
every 1st year mechanical or civil engineering student knows that a carbon fiber cylinder is great as a PRESSURE vesicle, but can't be a reliable COMPRESSION vesicle. This is due to the simple fact that a carbon fiber is one of the greatest materials in tensile (stretching, like pulling a rope) but terrible at compression (why you can't push a rope.) If this "design" was so good, don't you think Navy(s) the world over would make submarines out of a thicker version? Nope, "carbon fiber" is a sexy term to most people because they have never laid hands on the material they keep hearing how strong it is....
In addition, the glue used was also a problem. Metal expands and contracts u like a composite coated in glue.
Yes I believe it was JB weld applied by hand
@@thestruggler3338 and he didn't want input from engineers.
The Titan was a Cyclops-class submersible but after its destruction it should be renamed the Deathtrap-class.
It was the epoxy that held the hull together and from the very first dive those loud cracking sounds were the sounds of epoxy cracking in some layer among the many layers of carbon fiber. Each cracking sound was additional weakening of the bonding epoxy that would of course have to eventually fail under the insane 6000 psi pressures at those depths.
A sub made out of carbon fiber is like making a bullet proof vest made out of bubble wrap
The way Stockton Rush set his company up showed how evasive he was being. Oceangate Inc is registered in Everett, Washington while Oceangate Expeditions is based in the Bahamas. Why? The Bahamas has much less stringent rules than the USA.
The second point is this, why did he choose the tubular shape? To fit more people. Why did he choose 5 passengers?
H.R.1159 - Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 103rd Congress (1993-1994).
SEC. 4. SMALL PASSENGER VESSEL.
Section 2101(35) of title 46, United States Code, is amended to
read as follows:
``(35) `small passenger vessel' means a vessel of less than
100 gross tons--
``(A) carrying more than 6 passengers, including at
least one passenger for hire;
``(B) that is chartered with the crew provided or
specified by the owner or the owner's representative
and carrying more than 6 passengers;
``(C) that is chartered with no crew provided or
specified by the owner or the owner's representative
and carrying more than 12 passengers; or
``(D) that is a submersible vessel carrying at
least one passenger for hire.''.
"more than 6 passengers" means he lost 250K every dive by not making it big enough for 6.
The Bahamas also have much shallower waters.
@@Zak6009 true, but the reason is much more likely because of easier regulations. Oceangate also states that if they are taken to court it had to be handled in the Bahamas. Clearly trying to skirt US regulations and liability. Oceangate looks like it tried to do more to protect itself legally than it put into the ensuring safety of the sub.
Bahamas for tax purposes. He didn't want to pay U.S. taxes which are much higher.
Suddenly everybody is an expert
Well you are the expert on experts.
And this is the only forum where we can show our expertise. Nobody else will listen.
I have some experience with glass fiber based pressure housings. The main point in the design on them is the ends of the tube and how exactly they are done. When tested to failure it is almost always at some point of transition that fails. Coating the outside is a good idea but I would bet that the titanium ring to carbon fiber transition is the point where the failure started.
The glue that bonds the ring to the tube for me was an immediate red flag, what happens to the glue if exposed to high pressure water plus temp cycling? What if the water eats away the glue. This is also ignoring the fact that the tube has a large component that is also essentially harded glue.
@@blackmancer I worried less about the actual glue and more about what the glue was being asked to do. As temperature changes etc, the titanium and the carbon fiber will want to react differently. It looked to me like the glue was in a design that would make a pealing action.
I also have a vast knowledge oF glass( bravo!) The first time I broke all my mother's crystal drinking glasses I was grounded for a week! No more video games.
@@daviddavis3389 Remember that with their vast knowledge, they still ended up with a half vast design.
@@kensmith5694 true that!
All I heard was, "glued to" this and "others don't think it will stand up to pressure" that and I'm immediately thinking NO THANKS. IF you are going to risk your life, at the very least, minimize every single risk factor. 😒
They signed a paper litterly saying " i dont care if i die" and payed each 250.000$ for a trip in a not certified vessel.....thats what you get...
Carbon fiber is actually fairly strong, the problem is that it was used incorrectly. Fibers are great in tension like in a pressurized vessel such as an airplane where the inside pressure is higher than the outside. Not so much in compression such as a submersible where the outside pressure is higher than the inside. Effectively, the carbon fiber did almost nothing and the majority of the compression strength came from whatever resin they used to cast the carbon fiber.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw The problem with that design is that the corners and edges are going to be under compression. Every force has an equal and opposite reaction, so while the sides are in tension, the corners and edges are in compression and have to take far more compressive load then they would if you had a perfect sphere. Not only that, but a pyramid design has even less space available to it than a sphere. Meaning you need to make it larger than a sphere to fit someone which means more surface area and higher loads.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw The concave sides are pulling the edges inward while the water is pushing in on the edges. That's two forces (or three forces if you include two sides per edge) acting on the edges. Something needs to be in compression to prevent the corners and edges from collapsing inward.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw You pull on a string only at one end, the string isn't in tension because there is nothing holding the other side in place. If anchors on both sides of the string share the same body, that body needs to be in compression equal to the tension force in the string. It's simple equal and opposite forces. The sides of your design are the string, what in your design is preventing the sides from moving inward?
@@BobbyT-yj1cw What is preventing the points of the triangle from moving? You need an equal and opposite force to hold the triangle's points in place. If there's nothing preventing the points from moving, the system isn't in tension, it's moving. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about that. You're suggesting you can pull on a string at its center with nothing holding the ends and that somehow puts it in tension. Sorry, that's not how physics works.
@@BobbyT-yj1cw I honestly think you're trolling at this moment. You're using inertia to justify your wacky physics on a static body. Not only that, but arguing that instantaneous forces function in the exact same way as continuous forces.
Rush didn't know what he was doing but convinced others that he did.
What kills me, is Stockton Rush, regarding safety regulations and such, kinda poo-poo'ed the idea, like it was non-essential. HE said he was relying on "good engineering and logic." Now, I'm the daughter of an engineer, so I was raised to kinda question everything, and IMO this guy was NOT using good engineering and logic. I'm not an engineer but even I see the "logic" in NOT combining so many types of material, which are going to react to such great pressure in different ways. Now that I know more about what happened, I do feel sorry for his four passengers, but I don't feel sorry for Rush and his over-inflated ego, who couldn't abide by anyone telling him "no."
Millionaires! Whaddya gonna do? Millionaires don't like to hear the word NO.
As P.T. Barnum once said : "There's a sucker born every minute"...
Being strings, carbon fiber is good for stretch type of load.
Here, it was wound in cylinder, and the load is a pressure from outside. I believe the actual bearing structure is not even the carbon fibre, but only the resin. Which is even magnitude weaker
This people Didn’t die out while feeding the hungry... they died while living a FUTILE life ... The richest king said🤴🏻 “The greatest futility!” says the congregator,
The greatest futility! Everything is futile!
What does a person gain from all his hard work
At which he toils under the sun? The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man" Eclesiastes 1:2 , 12:13,14
I have worked with pressure vessels whether that be with ASME standards or BS5500 and calculations are dependant of pressure and temperature and the stress figure at these variables to determine the thickness of materials to withstand the pressures. How on earth you detemind this with carbon fibre wrapped round like a rippon. These people who climbed into this sub where inteligent people, yet chose to dive deep under water. It staggers me why they wanted to go and do this. Very sad.
I think the excitement of the adventure itself got the better of them to the point that they were no longer thinking cognitively about safety. Now we know for sure Carbon Fibre is no good for human occupant submersibles. A lesson lived is a lesson learnt, except they are no longer with us to learn that lesson.
@@lancepage1914 When I pay $9.00 for a ride on a roller coaster, I don't ask the park owner if the structure was inspected recently (I may NOW though). Likewise, his passengers would have assumed that it was safe if only because the designer/owner was himself on board. No one expects someone to do what Rush did ; be so blinded by $$$$$$$signs he convinced himself he was right and all the people with 20,--30,--40 years experience were just jealous and wrong. Rush actually believed it was safe, or at worst thought that at the first sign of trouble , he could just dump the ballast and bob peacefully/safely to the surface. The phrase 'instantaneous catastrophic implosion' wasn't even present in his mind. It should have, because the TOTAL PRESSURE attempting to crush that brittle plastic pressure hull, was 425,000,000 lbs of FORCE, the weight of approx. 470 fueled and loaded Boeing 747s!!!!
Stockton and his wife sold the sh** out of the sub, dinners, flying out, telling them it’s safer than crossing a street 🙃
@@lancepage1914the lessons were learned long ago. According to James Cameron, since the 1960s there have been no catastrophic failures to vessels of this type. Steel hulls are used for a reason.
The lesson here is that one man's desires and hubris are not exempt from the laws of physics.
@@elinebrock5660tends to be titanium for DSVs these days.
I was in sub in the Caribbean - it was in Aruba. I remember the guide saying less than a fraction of 1% of the population have been to the ocean floor at that depth and I can't imagine it was all that far down.
how can you see out of the tiny porthole? in the dark? it seems like an extreme place to go just for a brag
Hi, I was on the same sub trip in Aruba. If I remember correctly it went down to approximately 125 feet. It was an interesting little excursion but I'm not sure if I'd find the need to venture much deeper than that. Cheers !
The moment he said, “glued to the carbon fiber” yeah they’re f*cked.
Titan was the Rice Krispies of submersibles: Snap, Crackle and Pop.
There's a difference between tension and compression. When carbon fiber is used for high-altitude aircraft, the pressure is pushing from the _inside,_ which puts the carbon fiber under _tension._ Carbon fiber has remarkable capabilities for withstanding that. When used for a DSV, the pressure is pushing from the _outside,_ which puts the carbon fiber under _compression._ The ability of carbon fiber to withstand such extreme compression as that experienced by Titan is an unknown quantity because it hasn't been thoroughly tested under those conditions. Also, a cylinder does not have the intrinsic pressure-resistant properties of a sphere, the latter being the preferred - and far more logical - shape for the cabin of a deep-pressure vessel. The whole enterprise was reckless in the extreme.
The more I hear about the Titan, the more I think it was wreckless to take on passengers.
criminal i'd say. They had no business taking passengers on an unclassed experimental sub, and certainly not advertising trips to the Titanic on their website aimed at the wealthy general public. Cameron and others who used experimental subs to go to deep depths never took passengers and were risking only their own lives.
Stockton Rush, a good case for irredeemable incompetence !
Yes, but what he lacked in competence he made up for in bullshit.
I can imagine this guy's personality. A real "thinking out of the box" go getter, captain of his own cheerleader team.
That banging noise was the sharks ringing the dinner bell.
Well boys and girls long story short Don’t Stockton Rush it
🤣🤣🤣
Lets re-explain something thats been severely overexplained alreadly
Great idea George! 🤦♂️
Even hockey sticks are made with woven carbon fiber, and he couldn’t even manage that? If he’s going to ignore all the other downsides of using carbon fiber, the least he could have done was make it woven as strongly as possible.
Definitely
Even my damn mobile phone case is made from woven fibre 🤣🤣🤣
Makes sense it many applications, but in this one it didn't matter.
its like loud thunder, if it scares you , it didn't kill you , YET.
“Gun shot like sounds” mf would be deaf to this day if he heard a gunshot inside that tiny sub
This gets more depressing as we realize this wasn't an immediate thing. They probably heared banging cracking, all the lights were red. And knew something was wrong. I still only feel bad for the kid who didn't want to go though.
actually some banging was normal for this sub, Karl Stanley a sub expert rode on this sub and describes hearing banging like small caliber gunfire on the way down and back up, a CBS reporter who rode on the sub also reported the same and Stockton told him it was "the weaker carbon fibers breaking" and that the sub was stronger after the weaker fibers broke. Absolutely incredible.
How the hell did thus thing get over the line as far as safety was concerned omfg
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As a welder in the steel industry i learn that welded matrial would of been a great choice and they would of been able to dial back the catastrophic point
2:37 I still can't believe they ran the fibers parallel to each other instead of doing a diagonal pattern.
It's not ironic that both the Titanic's disaster and the Titan's were primarily due to intelligent people overcame by "negligence" leading to the death of innocent people who blindly trusted their competence..
I mean the titanic was a good ship it just got absolutely destroyed by that ice berg. This was a guy who said he was innovating as an excuse to be cheap
@@codypendency9482 of course for Titanic I didn't mean the Ship was made cheaply but people on that ship were negligent and in Titan's case it's gross manufacturing negligence.. btw Titanic did cut corners in safety like they could've carried adequate life boats but they didn't, used low quality rivets for front and back section of the Titanic's hull, decreased the height of the bulk heads leading to the less effectiveness of the water tight compartments..
So Stockton rush was only interested in making money, not safety?
He wasn’t making money. I’d wager renting that mothership on a weekly basis wiped out most of his excess funding. He just bankrolled his clients money to help fund his personal expeditions.
Definitely was all about money😊
Money always wins.
I hope this is sarcasm? 🤔
death always wins. Death is undefeated.
What was the fatal flaw of the Titan? Apparently, it was Rush. Heartbreaking. So many opportunities for him to have listened to thoughtful, informed, and experienced people.
Another point I have not heard discussed is that carbon fiber had tensile strength but in this application it would require compressive strength. Compression would tend to shear individual strands until the integrity was compromised.
@@klinestill I guess I missed it. I did see it mentioned as I was scrolling through the comments.
Rhino liner? A pickup bed liner company who expanded into other uses, none of which are to seal vessels at 3000 meters under the surface of the ocean.
I wonder if the company will have to add a disclaimer - "not applicable for use at 6000 psi"...
That there's probably one of the 'innovations' he was patting himself on the back for.
From what I have seen in this video and others, steel is the way to go.