The Contrarians Presents: Thin Lizzy’s Most Contrarian Album
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Davey from @DavysFlicks and Martin pick out Thin Lizzy's most contrarian album!
The Contrarians is a show where one of us jumps in the hot seat picks a dark horse album from a band as that band's best album. The guest host will argue against them with facts, stats and all around truth, subjective and objective!
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Do you agree that this is the most contrarian Thin Lizzy album? Let us know what you think!
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This was a pleasure to do. Thanks very much to Martin for inviting me!
thank you Davey 🙏 you are welcome back anytime!
Thanks! I will see you tomorrow then!
enjoyed your very erudite commentary and hope you will appear again soon.
@@Baz63 thank you very much! I haven’t been on as many videos in the last couple of months either here, or on my own channel or on Sea of tranquillity but will be going fulltilt boogie again soon!
I always like to hear your thoughts on music. A swami for sure!
This is my favorite Lizzy album! I'm 56 and began my journey with them on the Jailbreak release. I think if Phil would have lived, they would have continued on in this direction and it would gotten tighter and worked and I would have completely been on board with it. 💯
Sykes has said that he didn't want to leave TL but Coverdale kept upping the cash and Phil told him to take it. I think this is also part of why we don't hear from Sykes much anymore. Coverdale ruined what could have been an amazing run of Whitesnake albums. Instead he ripped Sykes off. And then the bad record company marketing and just general bad timing of Blue Murder on top of all of it, Sykes has become bitter and angry about it all. Rightly so, I might add.
I think at the end of the day he wishes he would have stayed with Phil. Phil would have probably recovered from the heroin and given the fire Sykes had lit under everyone's asses; Lizzy would have done WELL throughout the rest of the decade.
Just my take on it all.🤷🏿♂️
When an episode makes me want to dig out the album in question and listen to it, it's mission accomplished...well done gentlemen.
Cheers Tim!
Thunder And Lightning is an excellent dark horse album pick. Cold Sweat is one of my favourite Thin Lizzy songs and John Sykes addition to the band was great.
If only Phil could've done even just one more Lizzy lp. He had a good handful of songs that were Lizzy worthy left in him. Nineteen and Sisters of Mercy spring to mind. Laurence Archer should've gotten a chance to do the proper duo thing with Gorham as well. Ah well thats the way she goes. Great video as ever.
There's a lot to be said for this Lizzy album. Sykes was thrown into the deep end, the label had little faith in the band by this point after the shamble of the previous two records, Renegade didn't even certify which tells us all about that album. Thin Lizzy had a lot to prove, and they were able to despite the numerous issues. Thunder & Lightning was done in rather quick time too, hence perhaps the issues with the mix if not the recording.
Out of the gates the album is aggressive, it's an assault. More than anything, Sykes speeds up the arrangements and for the first time since 1979 Thin Lizzy have a guitar player who can take the spotlight and be dynamic. And despite the criticisms, the songs are actually quite good. The staggered riff on Holy War was nicked by Motley Crue on Dr Feelgood, and Killing Joke's A Love by Blood has a touch of it, Cold Sweat is killer, and Scott delivers arguable finest solo on The Sun Goes Down, and Tis is the One is an excellent song. And there is a lot of pain n the album, and Phil and Scott were on the horrors, but they did admirably. Even if Scott took a backseat for much of it.
I can't help but wonder that if Phil got clean and opted out of the lime light for a few years, we know that Scott got clean, that after John's Whitesnake tenure, that Thin Lizzy could have regrouped say circa 1989 with John Sykes and have made a huge impact. And mainly stateside. Whitesnake were a glorified pub band that could not get arrested in the US until Sykes put his fingerprints all over 1987.
But I digress, T&L is a favorite of mine, it's a band in decline but they come out fighting, 9/10
This is my favorite Thin Lizzy album, love the contributions of John Sykes to the band. Just a shame the band fell apart right after this, would have been interesting to see where they went next.
Definitely the most contrarian Thin Lizzy album. Great job! You guys make a great tag team.
Thanks my man! I’ve had Martin on my channel too and he will be back in the future!
Keep them coming... Trying to decide on that Rival Sons you and Pete talked about.
For as much as Martin picked apart the album with things he didn't like, in his book "the collectors guide to heavy metal", he gave the album a 10/10 (according to Wikipedia). For me, this has always been my favorite Lizzy album. I will acknowledge however this was my introduction to the band in late 1988.
I am in the middle of reading Martin's two books on Thin Lizzy. T&L is not like the TL albums before it. Although Angel of Death was very heavy. I probably put this in my top 3 TL albums though.
I think with a different mix that 2/3 of this album wouldn't be that out of place in the Lizzy catalog. I became a Lizzy fan when Live/Life came out and this was the 2nd Lizzy album bought. There's not a bad song on it. Its in my top 5 Lizzy albums. Love it.
Fantastic album. Should have done one more.
yes i agree , i suppose you could pick one of the 1st 3. but ya this blew me away when it came out.
The Sun Goes Down is a masterpiece. As foe Sykes and shredding, watch and listen to some of Moore’s early contributions.
I don't think that "Thunder and Lightning" is a full on contrarian choice as it is maybe just a dark horse album. This album definitely has plenty of fans, me included, even if I may not consider it my #1 favorite Thin Lizzy album. It's certainly in my top 5 easily.
Well the idea is that the album is contrarian i.e. stands against their normal output. It’s not really a judgement at all on whether that makes it good or bad! But I agree it could also be considered one of their Darkhorse albums, though for a US audience most of theirs could
My thoughts as a rabid Lizzy fan since ‘74: I don’t see how half of Thunder & Lightning can be seen as conceptual. I’d like to hear that point elaborated upon. Gorham was trying to shred to keep up with Sykes and it revealed his weaknesses as a guitarist. The title track is basically Lizzy deliberately writing a Motorhead song. Phil & Lemmy were buddies and hung out quite a bit in those days. While the record was obviously a lurch toward metal and away from the classic Lizzy sound, it’s still Thin Lizzy and Phil is still the master storyteller. I think Sykes was the kick in the ass they needed after the somewhat mellower Snowy White era (which did have its stellar moments). I would’ve loved to hear another album with this line-up, especially if Sykes employed more of the style of his Loveland album, which has a Motown feel to several tracks. I think that would’ve really been something, but alas, it wasn’t meant to be.
The album sold because the band announced the tour as their farewell jaunt. It really put the spotlight back on Lizzy in a way it hadn’t been in a few years.
I was a long time Thin Lizzy fan when "Thunder" came out & I love it. As discussed, I thought it was a rejuvenation for the band. I would disagree w/Martin, I think the guitar solos are killer. I'm a guitar player & from the first time I heard it, the playing kicked my ass.
Nobody mentioned the misspelling of Gorham’s name on the record label. Davey made some great points, particularly regarding Philomena and how it can be tough to hear Heart Attack and the impact of that song as the final Lizzy studio track, at least in a sequential, album-related respect. He’s also spot-on in pointing out that the band was still searching for their sound and style on Nightlife, so there was nothing established to contradict. Thunder and Lightning was the proper choice for this discussion, for sure.
Fucking love Thunder & Lightning. And I have to give props to Martin and his Collector's Guide 80s book for turning me onto this album and Renegade. Those are my two favorite TL albums ever!
The producer’s name is pronounced Sangereedies with a hard G. John Sykes told me that when I asked him how he met Phil Lynott.
A great album. John Sykes really revitalized Lizzy. A excellent mix of thoughtful and balls to the wall, “Cold Sweat” being one of the great rock/metal tunes ever imo.
Davey is best for these and not in a panel with 6 others. He, Todd and a few others are better presenters than the other guys and make it a conversation not a lecture.
How do you NOT like the song Thunder and Lightning??!!
John Sykes solo in T&L is amazing. Great album.
This is actually my favourite Thin Lizzy album.
Would Renegade not be worth of consideration for that title? Thunder & Lightning is a solid set of themed songs. Renegade is more obscure. Love them both.
I've always loved this album regardless of being an outlier. Even more so with time. Never used to like Heart Attack that much but it's probably one of my favorites now.
Luuuve this album - played it a million times,I never get tired of it.🤘🔥🤘🎸
I adore this album, but I can't hold it up against Live and Dangerous or Black Rose.
I've never thought T&L was a huge stylistic change from what came before. Maybe sonically, but there are plenty of songs on Chinatown, and Renegade that would fit just nicely on Thunder and Lightning - Genocide, Killer On the Loose, Angel of Death, Hollywood, and Pressure Will Blow. Of course, Sykes leaves his mark as well, but most I think it just doubles down on some aspects that were clearly becoming more prominent on previous outings.
Sun goes down is one of the best Lizzy songs of all time
Another great show guys, really enjoyed it. However I don’t agree this is their contrarian album. Whilst every one calls it their heavy metal album, imo it’s not metal and I don’t think it’s much heavier than Chinatown. If I was to pick an album, I’d go with Renegade which I think is the album that sounds different.
I didn’t concentrate too much on the metal aspect as what makes it Contrarian me as I mentioned is the fact that John comes in and almost becomes a collaborator with the band more than anything else. He doesn’t feel like a Thin Lizzy member but rather John almost duetting with the band. So for me that is the contrarian aspect, that it is the only album they made where it feels like control was given away to someone who knew the modern scene much better than they did.
Brilliant album
And the last they released
What a monsterous slbum to depart with
"Heart Attack" is my favorite Lizzy tune so T&L gets all the love from me. Weird guitar tones aside, I don't think it's as much of an oddball in their catalog as their super early stuff.
Some Grand Slam 2022 remixes just came out last week too.
When I heard Cold Sweat for the first time it blew my mind .Awesome song
Sykes makes any Band Good.
Heart Attack is Excellent , listen to it again
I don't think Nightlife is a contrarian album for the exact same reasons as Davy's. I'd say that even the first 2 albuns weren't contrarians for the same reason. They came from a band still developing their sound. But by 1983 - with 11 studio albuns, 2 solo albums and a consolidated fan base -, to put Sykes in the band was as eager and desperate intentional change as possible. As I said 3 years ago on SOT, John Sykes ruined 2 fine bands: Lizzy and Whitesnake.
If anything, their massive success in the mid-70s was contrarian to where they were for the first clutch of records. But as we have both said by the time of this album they clearly had a set sound and expectations.Nothing wrong with confounding expectations or surprising your audience. But I don’t think that was the intent here, they really just were trying to marry the Thin Lizzy sound into modern metal. My least favourite Whitesnake albums are from 1987 and 1989 so that tells you what I think of the most metal years they had. I wouldn’t have liked to see Thin Lizzy go that way but of course it goes without saying if it meant Phil still lived, we would take it! As I am sure he would have matured into quite a special songwriter even by his standards later in life. Cheers and thanks for watching
@@DavysFlicks yup. Lizzy, UFO and Scorpions were 3 bands that started in the early 70s and by 1974/1975 were completely contrarians to their first intentions. Rush and Priest were/did the same, but in a shorter space of time.
It’s singular in Lizzy’s work that includes some of Lynott’s finest work. The production and approach is a bit heavy handed, but it’s also consistent with Lynotts willingness to risk progression and embrace the post NWOBHM era. Does it fail at times? Yup!! But as a Lizzy/completist nerd who saw em as a teen w Gary Moore in 79 and Snowy in ‘81 …it’s essential
Can you guys do a review of every Thin Lizzy album ? I was really looking forward to your opinions on my least favorite album , Blue Orphanage lol
It's definitely one of my favorites, I love the heavier stuff on this one, it's easily in my top 5 of their catalog. Nightlife would definitely be a good contrarian pick as well, it had it's own unique formula and it sounded unlike a lot of their stuff going forward. I enjoy those latter albums of their career too, Black Rose, Chinatown, Renegade, Thunder& Lightning are all great! Good show fellas.
Phil simply wanted to make something more "metal" than the usual "Springsteen influenced" hard rock album, so Phil found John Sykes who was a breath of fresh air IMHO, and Thunder and Lightning was the result. The reason for making that record was most likely spurred on by the success of Van Halen. I loved Thin Lizzy since Nightlife came out in 1974 and everyone said that Lizzy's "ersatz Springsteen" when imo Springsteen was inspired by Thin Lizzy.
The album art is the defination of 80's hard rock/metal, pretty good album tho
This album has a massive following... I can get into several songs but I don't think it's a masterpiece. I actually don't care much for Sykes being on the album, great player but no one before was miles below him. Scott Gorham could actually shred by this point and Renegade has better songs. What it's missing is some wah pedal and more double harmonies
Ummm.......Nightlife has Sha la la la la......maybe the Proto-type Lizzy Heavy Track and Power Metal Template as well!
Great show guys. Great album
Thanks very much!
Maybe it was the album they had to make after the relative commercial failure of Renegade. Much like Budgie i think Thin Lizzy recognised the increasing popularity of NWOBHM and so jumped on the bandwagon. Both bands lost their distinctiveness but, taken in isolation, Thunder and Lightning is a good album but without the subtleties. Also Wishbone Ash were so-called victims producing Twin Barrels Burning and Raw To The Bone in the same period that were both not stylistically reminiscent of past works.
I revisited Nightlife...if you like funk and wah wah pedals it is an over looked record
This is one of my fave Lizzy albums.
Oh yeah, this is a fantastic record.
i love that solo on The sun goes down (Gorham?). One of my favorites. That sound is fantastic. Not a big fan of the generall production of the album.
yes you are right Sun goes down and probably bad reputation are the 2 best lizzy solos.
I never loved this record very much. Some really good songs on it (Holy War, Cold Sweat), but the production is awful. I never considered TL a metal band and that's what they tried to be with this record. So I would agree - it is a very contrarian album. Nightlife on the other side is a nice and very R&B TL record. I like it pretty much.
im gonna go ahead and say it the boys are back in town is the best thin lizzy album by a mile. its only now people who wont say it anymore because they made it illeagel to be a boy in 2023!
brilliant album every song is classic lizzt with a bit more punch from sykes...sun goes down.....also wharten's keyboards add so much depth and drama
It better, songwise than Renegade and Chinatown. Sure, it's more of its time, trying to fit in with what was going on with guitar-driven heavy music of that period, but it still feels like Lizzy to me.
If EVERYTHING has to compare to the classic Jailbreak/JtF/Bad Rep era, then Renegade and Chinatown fail too, though I think Chinatown is pretty good.
For me T&L is more like Black Rose in that both have a guitarist that IS at another level than the Robbo/Gorham level. So it's a little less balanced in that way. But Gorham will tell you that Gary Moore made him work his ass off to become a better lead player. And that shows on both Black Rose and T&L. This was the first time John Sykes saved Lizzy. Later, he'd absolutely be responsible for resurrecting the band in the 90s.
I was not a fan of the production on this album. Phil was very good at noticing the way music is going and reacting to that change.
T&L is ABSOLUTELY NOT Lizzy's best album, not even close! There are at least 5-6 albums that CLEARLY are better records by them.
👍👍👍👍👍
Even though John Sykes added a very necessary fire and impetus to the band after the departure of Snowy White, in hindsight I'm not too impressed with the more metal direction of the band. It's a more cohesive album than Chinatown or Rengade but it also sounds more generic. On the other hand, it also sounded more contemporary and it definitely made the band relevant to a new audience that was listening to Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. The only tracks on the album that really having staying power for me are: Cold Sweat, The Sun Goes Down and Holy War. Nothing else really stands out for me. I don't really thing there is a contrarian Thin Lizzy album, because the band never took great leap into the unknown, doing something that wasn't a progression from something they'd done before. But, this album does contain the least amount of the things I love about the band, so it stands out for that reason. Still a good album, but not a go to for me.
T&L is definitely NOT a concept album, but I understand what the guy here is saying because there is some overlapping and interlocking lyrical narratives, but that's as far as any thread that runs through the whole album goes. I know he wasn't saying it was literally a concept album, but that's a stretch even to suggest it could've been etc. Phil Lynott DEEPLY believed in God, so no, he isn't questioning his own belief in a higher power in general like the narrator here is suggesting. Lynott was touching on themes that he himself had contemplated for much of his life, but that doesn't mean he is questioning his own beliefs in a higher power. Life has many aspects to it that seem to make no sense at all obviously, and I think Phil was contemplating these cosmic mysteries through much of his lyrics on T&L. I couldn't agree more with Martin's assessment of the guitar tones and solos on T&L. Martin, I am impressed! You are exactly right!! John Sykes tone is TERRIBLE in general and I have always felt this way. he plays a million notes a second and many of those notes are BAD notes against the chord! He is vastly overrated and it shows clearly on T&L. Robertson had a much better SOUND and was much more melodic and musical in his phrasing and note choices. T&L is not Gorham's best performance on record either, but he had demonstrated his good tone and musical playing on many Lizzy records before this point, Sykes hadn't and never really showed he was MUSICAL on anything. The strongest song on T&L imo is The Sun Goes Down.
Thunder & Lightning is okay. It isn't that different to Renegade stylistically although it abandons the different styles found on that album and totally focuses on the heavy metal side of it. The lyrics reflect that and are generally speaking pretty poor. The guitars are all shreddy and nothing memorable. Downey restricts himself to very basic drum patterns. Lizzy finally lost all its melodicness and funkiness and turned into a generic metal band. Just like how Nightlife was an lacklustre attempt to be more succesful with a softrock sound.
I wish the Eric Bell era, the original band, gets more attention. It often gets overlooked completely. I know the hardrockers don't like this era but there are lots of gems to be found. Vagabonds of the Western World is among their best albums.
Thunder and Lightning is an overrated album, it´s many others of their albums i like better.