Garrett G25-660 copy analysed.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- A chinese company tried to make a copy of the Garrett G25-660 - we purchased one from a trade show in Europe and did the analysis - after a long back and forth WECHAT conversation about the quality problems and request for support to test the product and their ability and technical know-how we had the information we needed to produce this video to show the facts about the product we purchased.
Needless to say, the ball bearing copies from China are so far away from being reliable - beware.
Very informative, thank you. My only criticism is that the video was shot in portrait rather than landscape. Otherwise, excellent information. Keep up the good work. Cheers
Thanks for the criticism, the video was shot without spending too much time with tripods and cameras and editing - sorry if it was a little irritating.
@@TurboDirectSA I'm just glad I found it. There aren't many videos warning against copies of the new G series. In the photos they look exactly like a Garrett and actually show Garrett branding in the photos.
@@laytonryan8771 That is counterfeit and infringement - please let me know where i can find these blatant copied products showing the Garrett branding?
@@TurboDirectSA I found them on Alibaba. When you ask for more information, they send you a photo but it says booshiwheel instead of Garrett.
@@laytonryan8771 Well you know the result of that one don't you :-)
Be cool to see a test on 1 of those Pulsar G25 550 turbo
Plusar is actually really
They work awsome
yes test Pulsar g25
Lol what do you think this is?
@@needmoreboost6369 how do you know?
i,d be intrigued to see these tests on the Pulsar range of copy turbos,,,these are the big sellers in the US and UK for copy units,,no personal experience but they "seem" to have positive reviews in most of the forums that ive seen them fitted,,,thanks for the vid ,absolutely fascinating that it would not even get close to balance ,,,lucky to ,last a fortnight with any real boost applied
about 350rpm less spool time and lost 7% of power on 1.8T same map.
thanks for that ,,that indicates old tech heavy turbine and compressor wheels ,,the spool is terrible ,,the lost power could be either wheel ,,the lag alone would stop me buying it tbh
Do you know Pulsar turbos ? If yes it would be an interesting subject to analyse , they seems to be high quality chinese copies ...
You give them a ribbing about warrantee, However I just purcharsed a Garrett G25-550 and it failed the first time it went over 10PSI on a mostly stock SR20, and Garrett has not supplied a warranty. Garrett has said that the turbo has overspeed. 185kRPM is not possible at 4500 RPM and 30PSI on a SR20. May as well by Pulsar or this one to get your moneys worth. If you run a garrett G turbo. A speed sensor is essential - not an accessory as they advertise.
Sorry to hear about the experience, it not the first time we have had this sort of failure, on the G25, but also o the G30-660 and G30-900 units aswell. Quality from Garrett is disappointing to say the least.
I had a similar experience, g25-550 purchased through authorized Garret reseller(turn14) was delivered with excessive end to end shaft play, I had it installed anyway as maybe it was within their spec and it was brand new. when I took the car to the dyno the tuner inspected the turbo and also said the play was excessive, i then started a warranty claim, sent turbo to Garret for warranty and they refused to warranty and returned my turbo in pieces. I might as well have bought a pulsar because of the $1700 wasted
I'd buy from you guys for sure...TAKE MY MONEY!
Proper professionals the boys at Turbo Direct
Thank you sir!
Great videos. I've watched two so far. My one complaint is your opening to your videos is crazy loud compared to the rest of the video. Also the portrait mode is hard to watch although would probably be great for IG TV.
Thanks for the comments, much appreciated, since this video, we have made changes especially in the portrait mode and sound.
Can you run a video of a genuine Garrett like a G30 for instance 660? 770? and run 5 runs back to back to see what kind of repeatability one should expect?
This is such an awesome video
Sure can do - coming up shortly
@@TurboDirectSA This honestly has to be one of the most underrated new combustion engine related channels out there. You guys looks for facts, dig deeply and deliver information in a palatable way.
If I could make a couple of silly little house keeping suggestions please.
Intro music is 3X louder than I can hear you, maybe until you get a mic you could boost your voice, consider doing some voice overs or lower the intro music sound to equalize it?
Secondly perhaps use the camera in landscape?
@@Christdeliverme Thanks for the info - i kept the footage as "raw" as possible, specifically for the critics and "nay sayers" who will always have a comment about "this was doctored, or this was edited, its false" and and -- all the new videos have the sound sorted, and i will be getting a MIC this year -
I dont really want to do voice overs, as it takes away from the "raw" footage that you can be guaranteed the footage is original, real and unedited. Making the facts that are carried in the video 100% true and unbiased.
Thanks for the heads up - much appreciate it, and its the same requests regarding sound we get from many viewers.
@@TurboDirectSA Have you ever tested turbine housings or have a perspective on turbine housings from AGP and ATP turbos? I want to upgrade my turbo, but I have a standard T3 in and 4 bolt out. AGP and ATP sell G series and Gen II GTX turbos with these specs, but they're branded as either AGP or ATP. I don't know if they're made by those companies or if they're using these cheap Chinese copies. Any info is greatly appreciated. Happy to make a purchase from TurboDirect if you can ship to the US cost effectively.
@@craigebaker1 I have measured the AR of many housings previously, and the findings are very surprising. I have also measured some housings from one of these companies you mention, however i dont have this data with me anymore, as we did this in 2010. Ill make a video of the AR measurement of various housings and publish this in 2021 -- its a good idea to share what you actually buying before you buy it.
This was pretty fascinating. Part of me really wanted to watch you balance it as perfectly as possible despite the apparent flaws, hahaha. It is honestly amazing to me how many cheap Chinese turbos are run and run hard without failure. Obviously I now they are likely nowhere near the efficiency of brand name turbos in most cases, but it is wild to think about. This is clearly a swing and a miss. Who knows if and when they'll improve, but obviously worth it to buy genuine.
I would never try to balance this paper weight as its not possible. With every run the state of balance changes. I prefer not to try "polish a turd" to be honest.
What is more wild is the fact that you don't hear of all the failures with these cheap copies - this is more important than the turbochargers "that live" There is ALOT more to the ball bearing cartridge than most know and undrstand, hence the fact that even the turbo manufacturers use existing reputable bearing manufacturers for the supply of these parts. Materials, tolerances and heat treatment, together with the assembly and other information is actually more critical than most know. This is where the cheap copy products fall over - Without this information, i doubt there will be improvement anytime soon.
@@TurboDirectSA Everything you say makes great sense. :) I only say I wanted to see it balanced for the morbid curiosity. I know it would be like chasing a bouncy ball down a hill. Never know where it will go next. You are also of course correct that even a 99% success rate on a cheap product means a 1% failure rate which would be unacceptable to reputable brands and can have massive consequences for those experiencing the failures.
@@802Garage Exactly right - on the failure side of things, the cheap knock off products have a much higher failure rate than 1% this i can guarantee you. The daunting thought of the language barrier and trying to explain a warranty claim from a country like china is another story altogether. Because of the cheap price, many leave the failure and move on.
@@TurboDirectSA Oh I can tell you first hand most people in the USA who buy cheap turbos, $100-600, consider them disposable. If they go bad, they know there is no warranty or support and that even if you can rebuild them it's not worth the hassle. They just replace. They are used on cheap builds where even if they lose an engine, they knew the risk when buying cheap. MOST people who spend thousands on a built engine are smart enough to know that they should buy a brand name turbo, even used, for the peace of mind.
It's hard to justify spending even $1,000 on a Garrett for example when your entire car or build was only a couple grand. Brand name turbos are really a premium product and that's why I don't think they generally compete with Chinese turbos. They're just mostly different markets. People who wouldn't have afforded a turbo at all or would have bought used vs people who have the money to buy a premium product. That said, companies can't get complacent as you mention in your videos. When a Chinese company starts offering "better" features on their high level offering that costs less than the lower level offering from a big brand, the wheels in people's heads start turning. Even if in reality it isn't the better choice. You know how marketing works haha.
I can tell you I personally have cheap turbos or used IHI/MHI products due to budget. In the future as my builds grow, I definitely would like to try the real deal in the aftermarket. Right now it's just not even in my budget, so no sales are being stolen from Garrett because I couldn't afford one anyways. At least not new. The same for many of my friends. It is fun to gain knowledge and experience starting with the budget garbage before moving up though. Especially because simple mistakes like an improper feed or drain are much easier learned on a $100 turbo. Though so many people STILL blame the $100 turbo for failure rather than their mistakes like a horrible drain setup.
I also think the "middle market" of Chinese turbos that masquerade as better products muddles the market a bit. Examples could be Kinugawa, Mamba, or Pulsar. Kinugawa being the funniest to me in that it's a Taiwanese company using a Japanese name and Japanese imagery in their logo. Mamba also appears to be Taiwanese and as far as I can tell must use the same factory or suppliers as Kinugawa, hah. Pulsar won't even say where their stuff is made, but shipping address is China. Wonder what your opinion is on those companies and if you have seen a difference in quality between Chinese, Taiwanese, and potentially Hong Kong. I know it's not a direct comparison, but in the airsoft market as well as in other automotive parts, we see a lot of difference between parts of each origin and then of course Japanese usually being another step above.
Of course I'm sure you know most of this. I figured I'd share my perspective as an extremely budget limited enthusiast as well as someone in the US who knows a LOT of cheap turbo users as well as many people and TH-camrs who buy real brand name turbos. I even have a friend who worked for Borg Warner Turbo Systems in North Carolina, which is who I first really heard about the EFR line from. Obviously you can tell I still want the best in quality and features, but what my wallet says is a bit different. Still learning as much as I can for when I can actually apply the knowledge. 😁 Sorry for the rant, you got my brain going again.
@@802Garage LOL -i had to laugh ... you have the facts about right there buddy. There is alot of dishonesty and smoke and mirrors with the marketing of these cheap products. As i always say - anyone can polish a turd, but it doesnt mean that its going to be perform or offer any form of reliability at all.
Know what you are buying - simple as that. This is why we do what we do in the tests and comparisons. We know a little bit about turbochargers and the related components and more or less how they go together - so we simply share what we know and hopefully people learn from us.
Just started watching. Glad to see a South African channel still alive. You guys ARE patenting your new proprietary designs, RIGHT? You want to protect your intellectual property.
I didn't know there were so many ways to screw up the manufacture of a turbocharger.
"mAyBe YoU sHoUlD mAkEe TuRbO yOoSelF!!!"
Yes, that sounds like a GREAT idea!
PS that long-running finger-flick test that demonstrated how low the friction of the ball bearing unit is was part of the reason I decided I would always want a ball bearing turbo.
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." - Framed and on the office of a major Dutch superyacht manufacturer. Lurssen or Feadship, one of the two, I think.
Regarding the section on how the blade spins when pushed by hand: I would expect a new turbo to be a bit tighter, not spin as freely as one that has quite a big of use. I noticed this with skate bearings, where new ones would hardly spin, but older ones would spin several seconds. It just seems a bit of an unfair comparison.
not necessarily, i can take a brand new ball bearing rotating assembly that we have built and hold it in my hand without its housings and they normally have some drag until they are run on the test rig. Once oil has run through the cartridge the bearing seems to have 'loosened' up, but this is not anything related to wear, just the fact that the assembly process utilities a totally different lubricant to the oil used inside the assembly in normal use. Even when the assembly is cold and spun by hand it rotates alot less than when its hot and come off a test rig - Changing direction now -- Another interesting thing about journal bearings. Brand new genuine CHRA's are assembled DRY believe it or not - when checking dry clearances in both axial and radial planes, they exceed the max tolerance and they are brand new --- once oil is passed through them the clearance is taken up - and inside tolerance.
Thanks very much for exposing these copy cats. I only use and stick to Mr Garrett and Mr borgwarner
Our pleasure.
I would love to see a Pulasr vs Garrett video in depth, i hear so many good stories about Pulsar
We have seen the pulsar product installed on clients vehicles and changed over to our TZR range with improved results and response. Pulsar is expensive chinese knock off product.
With running a 2jz would a g35-900 have the same spool as the g30-770 or is it going to take longer, under higher boost pressures like 20-30psi?
Not at all - the G35 will spool much later compared to the G30 - the entire rotating assembly is much larger on the G35. If response is important for your application, stick to the smaller family.
Thanks a lot! - top info - and very good style! keep on going!
How do you know where to cut the blade to balance? Seems like you just pick a spot and go?
I have been doing this for over 20 years, although it seemed like a just took a grind anywhere, its not the case at all, you need to understand how the imbalance process works, and where exactly to take a grind, in order to achieve a specific balance result in either the high or low RPM range - the grind positions and angles are all different, which i would have referenced the VSR machine in order to see where to grind - ill make up another video showing how this works.
That dial guage on the screen the needle turns as you turn the compressor wheel. I believe that 1 blade that is painted is magnetic paint an the sensor knows its location so you turn the wheel to where the imbalance is an grind their.
@@HP-qr7tt No not at all, the compressor wheel has a marked blade for reference position only - it does not have any connection directly or indirectly with the gauge as you turn the wheel - Magnetising the shaft nut is simply for the Speed pickup only.
@Alexander Knight You don't ask Superman how he flies do you? No that's just what he does, every day. Quite obviously an expert in the field that's how.
Please stop vertical video. Thanks for info. But please stop vertical video.
What are the chances the blades start to flex because of the low quality?
Abec777 Hondatech - the issue is more about the materials and if the aerodynamic results from the copied product. We manufacture our own billet compressor wheels, and from experience i can tell you that in order to copy a wheel, through 3D scanning (which is the easiest and most accurate) is not easy because once you have scanned the part in you have to redraw most of the boundaries and curves etc.... this is where angles, fillets, radii and other dimensions go out the window - in short - dont trust the cheap alternatives ....
@@TurboDirectSA Thanks!
love your work boys . i definantly wont be buying a copy . 2021 people tell me that pulsar copy turbos are blowing up.
Thanks for the compliment - much appreciated.
BUT THINK OF ALL THE MONEY YOU CAN SAVE UP FRONT THAT YOU CAN KEEP AS LONG AS YOUR CUSTOMERS CAN NEVER FIND YOU AGAIN!
Around this time I talked to booshiwheel about getting a g25 and they said had a bad batch of bearings and where waiting on some from Japan.
Ok so I just got my hands on the G30-660.
#1 these things are made in Mexico and not Japan. And let me tell you. IT REALLY shows...
So one complaint you had was that the bearing system compared to their old stuff seemed bad. Well my genuine Garrett is literally as bad as the copy here. [Edit] (as far as out of the box CHRA drag - compared to my out of the box GTX3584RS)
It's like they used Agave nectar as opposed to light machine oil.
Compressor side? No balancing done. Just a blue bit of paint.
Extensive balancing on the turbine side.
IM HOPING that the crappy bearing system (compared to the silky smooth GTX3584RS I had last year) smooths put once some hot oil gets through.
Lastly Garrett advertises the G30-660 as having a 4" compressor inlet... It does not. It's 3"
I have to disagree with you on the G30 -- the inlet is most definitely 102mm (4inch) without a doubt. whats the part# on your turbochargers name plate? All turbochargers are assembled dry, and then run on the VSR to balance- if there is no balance cut required, then you wont see on on the shaft nut - most of the time you will, even if its a tiny cut.
The turbos are assembled in various countries, including Mexicale, Poland, Japan, Korea, Romania, UK (cheadle - i have been there many times in person for training) and many other locations. If its a brand new original Garrett, you can rest assured its proper.
@@TurboDirectSA Hey Chris, just a follow up, you may want to edit your comment about the inducer, I know you've followed up with that in a subsequent video, but just so that people can view you current observations so that people know we're on the same page with the (660) inducer size [3"]
Nextly I have ran oil through the G30-660 and it seems to be losing some of it's CHRA drag as time goes on, so I should be all good there.
Just as a comparison though my Japanese GTX3584RS was very much saturated in machine oil to prevent oxidation etc. It just seems as though that machine oil had some how became tacky on the G30-660 by the time I've received it.
@@Christdeliverme machine slide oil comes in various grades with different properties and additives depending on the application. Remember that slide oil needs to be able to handle water mixed with water soluble oil, and still provide an oil film between the beds, slides and other lubricated components on the engineering machines. Some grades do get tacky, and sticky and some also caramelize when left standing exposed to oxygen. when we use slide oil, its for assembly on a unit which we know will be installed inside of a month so no warnings there. We do not assembly with this to leave on the shelf for months before installation. In that case, we use normal fully synthetic oil from the VSR and plug the oil inlet and outlet keeping some lubrication inside the unit.
@@TurboDirectSA what excellent insight.
It seems as though that is likely what happend; fresh turbski vs. slightly less fresh one...
Either way I'll share some performance data with you regarding the G30-660 .83 A/R turbo since I think that you're the kind of guy that loves data.
Side question perhaps for another video???
Proposals for upcoming housing's and configurations?
I'm really looking forward to a divided internal gated housing for this turbo, I'd love to know what else might be in store.
@@Christdeliverme Yeah share it and ill publish the data for other to learn from. Housings from our stable are currently being cast and machined. We have manufactured our own turbine housings for about 8 years now with great success, we had a problem child vehicle install one of our turbochargers with TurboDirect turbine housing in 2013 and a few other components that sorted the problems out on the car and it appeared in a local performance magazine, when the car was sold to the new owner, during the test drive the smile on the face of the buyer was priceless - spool and power was the order of the day. New designs coming out of our stable very soon - obviously all high temperature, stainless materials, and we will have videos showing the burst containment tests conducted published on youtube aswell. Something not even TIAL is able to do, or even does on any of their housings to date.
Should test a Pulsar G25/G30 and post results as folks commonly mention how "good" they are
Many have asked us to test these turbos - we not prepared to spend money on these turbos for a test. What we have done is researched them, and they are a 100% chinese copy range of turbos. Nothing innovative, nothing new, and according to the manufacturer in china, no reputable brand name internal components are used. This is the only information we have on these so far.
@@TurboDirectSA Am aware they're a Chinese replica turbo, it's more so to have actual testing comparisons done as people continue to state how "good" they go on their car, or on the dyno and how "good" they are because it made "x" power at a fraction of the cost of the genuine turbo
But as this video clearly shows, the replica part wouldn't be manufactured nearly to the same standard
@@WraithDeath I understand your requirement, however i still cannot justify spending money on cheap chinese knock off products im afraid. I have been around turbochargers for over 25years and personally visited and worked on production lines at Garrett, and other OEM brands, and what i have experienced, learnt and know about these complex components is something that will steer very far clear of anything that ha been "re-engineered" into what looks like the real thing...... As you already know and mentioned, just because it look the same means nothing .... anyone can make something look nice and shiny from the outside.
@@TurboDirectSA if someone else shipped you one of their turbos, would you test it?
@@rlcaust1 Yes ofcourse we will test it for you, soon we will be able to install and test it on a dyno side by side with any other turbo of your choice - look out for this in 2022
What's a good budget turbo in this power range for a sr20det, is there a good copy u recommend, I currently have a garret gt2871 but the lag sucks balls, Not looking to spend thousands just something more responsive & new tech
Akira - this is the challenge that the copiers and "imitators" have been trying to come up with for decades, since the ball bearing was developed for turbochargers, the turbonetics failure of a single ball bearing system was copied by the chinese and failed since the rotational speeds and harmonics caused more issues than a journal bearing turbocharger, then the company called CNracing in china tried their best to copy the dual ball bearing cartridge and failed, and still fail today albeit numerous revisions, we have been sent free samples time and time again, and they have no idea - typical "ah thats easy to copy" from a visual perspective - but the science and many aspects of what makes that cartridge a success is negated and completely misunderstood -
To answer your question - we have designed specific bolt on applications for specific cars like the VW Golf7R and Audi EA888 model which uses a genuine Garrett ball bearing cartridge inside of a range of our own designs, which we have learned over the two and a half decades that we have been involved with the genuine brands. We are applying this knowledge to develop bolt on installations for specific turbochargers, by upgrading them with technology thats proven.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a cheaper, copy, alternative, --- it just doesn't exist. Many would disagree, and claim "Well im running an eBay turbo for years and its 100% and it makes power and spools fast...." My immediate response to this is "In comparison to what??" when you do back to back tests and compare these units, your eyes will be opened and WIDE! The "cheap" copies, alternatives, no name brands etc just do not perform, spool or make the power that the genuine article does. Not unless there is serious development and research done by qualified engineers, simply copying a product (especially ball bearing) -- WHICH COSTS MONEY....
Sorry but the straight answer to your question is :- there just isn't any.
PS:- the Genuine Garrett dual ball bearing turbocharger will never be laggy on the SR20 motor - not unless there is a problem somewhere - boost leak, poor collector design on the manifold, leaking gate, cam timing out, etc etc
Chris Kambouris Man thanks for the detailed information you always provide. Your channel is truly one of a kind.
@@El_Scorcho_ Thanks for the comments - it means alot to us.
@@TurboDirectSA pretty sure i got a genuine garret thats what the box says anyways gt2871r .64 , s13 sr20 was built and tuned by a reputable shop, makes good power but im still not making full boost till 4k, standard intake plenum 6boost exhaust mani & supporting mods, all new gaskets & hoses, did plenty of leaks tests still the same full boost at 4k
@@akira5982 What boost are you running? The SR20 spools the GT28 turbo easily, and if you are seeing FULL boost at around 4000RPM - thats respectable and good DEPENDING on how much boost you running.
Mosyt 2.0 16V engines run up to 7500-8000RPM, which leaves you with plenty RPM band at full boost.
You can do a pressure test anyway if you suspect that the boost response is not acting properly.
this turbo work on Duratec 2.0 ?
No - its a chinese knock off, poor quality, it will fail.
Can you do a teest on the PULSAR turbo gtx3076? They look high quality as well but they are $600 so they have to be lesser quality as well.
Never heard of them -- send me a link, ill be able to tell you if this is a knock off / copy or some original design.
@@TurboDirectSA th-cam.com/video/Qn7tjh5BfEY/w-d-xo.html
@@alexanderknight7793 www.pulsarturbo.com/contact/ chinese copied product - beware.
@@TurboDirectSA been running a pulsar gtx3076r for a year, on my built mk4 jetta. Runniny 25/27psi and not had a single issue. They are decent and worth the money imo.
@@beefysghost867 my comment on this is the same as i always say - in comparison to what? Many people have the comment "I have this turbo, and its brilliant, never let me down, and spools fast and makes power!" Well -- in comparison to what exactly? Do the back to back test next to something that is OEM and an apples with apples comparison, and you will be massively surprised, this i can guarantee you.
Do Pulsar Turbos next
Iv got a maxpeedingrods gt28 turbo and it's been fantastic. Next going to gt30
Just curious if you have compared the g25-660 to a gtx3071 gen 2 both are good for similar hp
yes there is a great comparison - see here th-cam.com/video/AYzi_5O_lCI/w-d-xo.html
@@Dzenkys The comparison will be very similar - the new aero from the G25-660 although smaller on the exducer side of the compressor (67mm) will flow very similarly to the GTX3071R which is 71mm exducer. depending on what HP you targetting and what the application is, there might be better options -- let me know what your motor setup is and what you using the car for?
@@TurboDirectSA s2000, f20c1 jdm cr 11.7. Now I'm with gt3076r .82ar just wandering if g25-660 can hold up to 9k rpm?
@@Dzenkys No it won't. the turbocharger you running in terms of the turbine side is totally different to the G25 - the smaller G25 will not hold sufficient energy in combination with the smaller 67mm exducer compressor to flow at that high engine RPM with that high compression ratio - always keep in mind that the engines volumetric efficiency is the key in the compressor map plotting
Have you tested the more reputable/popular Chinesium s ? Mamba , kinagawa, pulsar ...?
There is a Pulsar distributor in SA, someone just send TurboDirect one so they can really show if they are worth anything at all. OR maybe everyone will be surprised..
BUT as said, its a knock off bearing cartridge for one...
Excellent knowledge and I can’t dispute your experience but I have 1 good example of where Chinese turbos belong it’s on the car’s that end up with them! on stock fuel systems and cast pistons it’s a shame to see a crown and ring’s go through a Garrett.
I hear you -- lol. In my opinion chinese turbos belong in the rubbish bin - when you have experienced bursts on a dyno which damaged equipment, engines and almost hurt people .... youll understand why i say this.
@@TurboDirectSA having said that I’m using one for now anyway“bit of a hypocrite hey”but a gtx35/82r gen1 copy by industrial turbos,it’s on a cast bottom end gm 3.8 v6 and I figured Garrett is not really missing a sale of an outdated gen1 ,even though a knock off it’s making more power than tyres and transmission can handle but as soon as a stronger trans goes in and better ecu it will be a g series Garrett most certainly but how about an sxe? Or a recommendation for a low rpm l36 3.8L v6 6000rpm on this cam and tune it’s a 1620kg commodore and really only chasing reliable 11sec pass,I’m not a fan of needing nitrous to get off the line but I have made my own compressed air anti lag if needed! I put it together a long time ago to eliminate lag on a vehicle that turned out to have fod of the turbine and just needed replacement. Definitely a Garrett fan though all my fastest cars used Garrett!
@@needmoreboost6369 Without a doubt Borg for the win. Garrett G-series are overrated and do not perform according to their claims. The SXE will impress you.
@@TurboDirectSA thanks for your recommendation! I was leaning that way and flow charts indicate I’ll likely be able to run more boost with less back pressure that’s a win for me! just to figure out which one now?
@@needmoreboost6369 I would lean toward the 300 - the 825HP version is fast spooling and will make more power than both your tire and tranny can manage - keeping boost low, and thermal loads low aswell.
Hello! A great video. Would you have any experience or data for the new generation of Kinugawa & Mamba turbos? These are a Taiwanese made turbos available on Ebay that looks like a Garrett G & GTX series. Thanks!
These are chinese knock off turbochargers and nowhere near the same quality as the OEM brands - their castings are not correct in terms if dimensions, nor are the materials near to the genuine brands. The housings crack and the bearing systems definitely do not last anywhere near the longevity of the real products. We have tested these on physical applications (Merc A45 bolt on) and they are simply just ....... :-(
@@TurboDirectSA Thanks! What makes me confused are the prices of them turbos - up to 950£!
@@slawek780303 I hear you - expensive and not worth it compared to the proven GTX Gen2 range
@@TurboDirectSA Thanks!
@@slawek780303 Pleasure Sir!
So what ur saying is we should by a pulsar trubo they all good now ?
If they use genuine brand and reputable bearing cartridges, they would be a consideration, but this they do not - your choice.
Some of the old kinugawa turbos seemed to be ok quality but they were copies of old turbos you wouldn't buy now anyway, seems a bit pointless going for the copies when you can get an airwerks or gtw journal etc for a reasonable price
These chinese knock off products are real low quality, careful. The GTW was released originally to compete directly with the precision journal bearing turbos. In fact Precision used the identical bearing housing casting from Garrett's T04 model. The turbine shaft dimensions resemble the IDENTICAL shaft dimensions of the 446905-xxxx shaft, with a different casting of the turbine head which is in fact a copy of the GT series heads. These designs are antiquated now.
I would opt for a ball bearing turbocharger every time - there are affordable options out there.
@@TurboDirectSA Cheers, I'm in the market for a new turbo, I'm hoping to catch your 1j tests beforehand :)
I thought the airwerks weren't a bad journal bearing turbo?
@@sircefiro Airwerks are great turbochargers, without a doubt - proven, undisputed. There are affordable Ball Bearing options though - this should be something else you should consider for obvious reasons.
@@TurboDirectSA What range are you thinking?
It's an rb25 neo, looking to make about 600whp on 100 octane and be able to turn it up if ethanol becomes more available, or maybe wmi.
I haven't worked on the car for about 10 years so has a good T3 open manifold which I'll change if needed, I'm in New Zealand
@@sircefiro We have our latest ball bearing offering being released very soon - this is similar to the proto-type we tested on the 24 hour endurance race car, which in fact we are doing qualifying again today for the 9 hour which we race in tomorrow 21st May - Go check out turbodirectsa on instagram, we will be posting alot of info on there.
The Airwerks S200SXE will use a T4 twin scroll turbine housing, which is great for the NEO motor together with a good manifold design. The turbo will probably get you to around 580WHP max though.
That sales lady were just a sales person. She won’t know anything about technical. That’s how Chinese run business. There is good company in china which make highend turbo charger, but the price is not cheap either. From ur video I see that this company is a hack. It is a non iso company, just a self distributed individual aftermarket seller. That’s about it.
Can you please share the details of the high end turbocharger manufacturer
Who makes high end chinese turbos?
Are any of these fakes being passed off as genuine Garretts?
Yes there are - and reported to Garrett, legal steps being followed against the chinese who are doing this.
@@TurboDirectSA oh right I will keep an eye out then. Have you had any experience with the 0.49 T25 rear housing for the g25-660? They don't seem to be that popular. I like the idea of getting spool down low but I'm aware it may be constrictive further up the rev range. I have found no flow properties of the internal wastegate, only for the actual scroll.
@@vanepico Yes we have - mostly on smaller engines like the 1600cc 4 bangers. Opel OPC 1600, and some other 8Valve engines with cc lower than 2.0 litre. They work very well, BUT will not see 660HP, they max out around 550HP with the smaller turbine housing on.
@@TurboDirectSA I'd love to see if you have a video or a web page with information about the 0.49 T25 setup. I am looking to fit it to a 1.8, and it is good to hear the housing should allow flow to facilitate 550hp, that should suit my needs fine. Was that 550 on ethanol fuel or petrol? Thanks
@@TurboDirectSA ...a 1.8 16v that is, does it cause any difference on an 8 or 16v?
Horrible audio. Turn you cell phone to the left for full screen as well. Sorry. I'll check back
Video is very old - Apologies, for that.
Can you do these evaluations with pulsar turbochargers?
I wont spend money on chinese knock off product sorry - all the tests we do on the knock off attempts as sent to us by clients locally and/or abroad. This keeps it unbiased and factual, as if we had to spend money on a product and it failed a test, it wouldn't be fair on the test.
@@TurboDirectSA your rationale isn’t clear.
@@adrianochiro4299 Please explain what you dont understand, ill be happy to explain.
Ooh maybe the shaft is flexing ..
Point is - CRAP quality through and through.
@@TurboDirectSA one shit turbo one shit manufacturer is really not super compelling evidence that all Chinese copy turbos are junk .
Pfi speed has had great success with the chinese pulsar brand......dyno and race them..
Excellent
pulsar is a good turbo ?
I have ever tested any, but facts remain they are chinese copies. No original bearing cartridges, or OEM parts inside.
I doubt it’s the bearings. Usually it’s the shaft being bent that causes the out of balance.
LOL - sorry im laughing, but a bent shaft will not only cause catastrophic damage to a turbocharger, but also it will never last very long at all. imbalance is casued by a poor design bearing, incorrectly balanced rotating assembly, and in the case of a ball bearing cartridge, the quality and accuracy of the ball groove grind and preload WILL cause balance issues. This cheap chinese paperweight we tested is total rubbish - not worth 10USD!
An old bearing always spins faster than a new one because of extra play, wasn’t septic until you did that…
An old bearing? Maybe a journal bearing will have a different operation based on clearance in the radial and/or axial plane, but a ball bearing is nothing the same - the slightest clearance in a ful compliment angular cartridge will result in failure - its that simple - research how these cartridges are made and you will understand.
Boosted Boiz already proved you can make serious power and run a Honda in the 9s with a 100 dollar eBay gt3582. The cheap copy turbos actually are pretty reliable. And after you go through the turbo, rebuild it and pay close attention to details they can be just as good as the real deal. If it’s sized right it’s going to perform. Nitrous will blow an authentic garret appart. And a borg Warner. And even the pulsar turbo. Doesn’t matter the. Brand nitrous can tear stuff up. Since I’m not a payed sponsored racer where every millisecond counts I run the g25-660 pulsar turbo I purchased for 500 bucks. Billet wheel, made 425 ftlbs of torque and 450 hp on ethanol. And 26 psi, on my 06 sti 9:1 compression build. Best bang for the buck turbo IV ever had.
we have MANY cheap chinese paperweights come through our doors on a weekly basis, some last a week, others dont make a dyno session - NONE of them make good power at all compared to a quality product. Its easy to copy something, and its even easier to copy it incorrectly, which the chinese are fantastic at doing. If you have a shoestring budget - my advise is NOT to get into this hobby - doing something right will cost money - fact.
@@TurboDirectSA you get three options fast, reliable, and cheap. And you get to pick 2 only. And obviously with the amount of data, research and the quick change of turbo designs completely say from the gen 1 garret gt30r and the gen 3 g- series turbos. Garrett has so many compressor maps and exact sizing, spot on ar. I also understand that by going the Chinese turbo route you get two of the options fast, cheap… how reliable. Well honestly the second you actually balanced that turbo, I noticed a huge difference in just sound alone, spooled way faster, and smoother. As a precision maintenance tech, we spend 85% of our time balancing steam turbines, and any turbo out of balance won’t last at all, even a Garrett that’s been balanced. Then taken apart and re assembled with no balance is at stake of destroying itself. With that said a new Garrett is really well balanced from the factory, you should show the direct comparison to an fresh out of the box Garrett or maybe you have already and I haven’t stumbled accross it yet. And I build full blown Subaru sand cars for a living, not being detoured by money, I’m having fun and IV seen some pretty wild sand cars go for quite awhile on the g25-660 Chinese turbo, on 28 psi
@@user-nf3oq2ge3g I love that analogy - but let me correct you - you get fast, cheap, good -- pick two -- 1) fast and good = expensive. 2) Good and cheap = slow, 3) cheap and fast = poor quality -- where do you think the cheap chinese low quality product lies? I can tell you this for free -- bring any cheap Chinese turbo and put it aside an original design back to back with flow bench and dyno and real road tests and ill open your eyes into how bad the cheap stuff really is.
@@TurboDirectSA I’m not arguing Chinese shit is cheap, and in a blind study if the turbos are in a box you can pick them up and tell the difference between Garrett and China brand whatever they are. Garrett is always heavier due to the housing thickness. which is safer. Plus I can only imagine the balancing machine they are using. It’s probably an old tire machine hob jobbed together and they are trying to balance a turbo on it. Like my dad always said. Buy a China toy it will break on the way home. Buy a China car part. It will leave you and your woman stranded on the side of the road. Lol
@@user-nf3oq2ge3g Weight has nothing to do with quality at all - that is a very naive thing to say. I can give you a Garrett TR30R turbocharger which weighs 3 kgs lighter than any other turbo on the market, and its not poor quality because it weighs less. Its the actual turbo off the factory Rally team car that Loebe drove in the early 2000's. The chinese product would normally be heavier, due tyo the lack of attention to detail for example - the machining for under head contact on the flange face that mounts to the manifold face - the chinese have always neglected to machine this until recently.
what an absolute junk, let that be a lesson to those whom waste their money on copied junk..those people buy and use these ebay turbos i call them ricers ;0...either do it properly or just leave it alone..for me its either OWEN DEVELOPMENTS or GARRETT.
Both are good products, both are premium
You could have kept your cool in your exchanges. They might have been more forthcoming rather than go directly into "defend the company" mode
Pulsar
Same ... Same?
So what about the people who have been running chinese ballbearing turbos reliably?
Congratulations to those people - we have over 80 failed ball bearing guise turbochargers from the chinese with non genuine ball bearing cartridges on hand which we have analysed and all failed for the very same reasons related to the bearing cartridge and assembly there of aswell as clearance and preload issues which are totally incorrect, in fact so far outside of required specification that its no wonder they have failed. The bearing system is the heart of any turbocharger and if you get this wrong, youre done.
Lots of genuine G57 Garretts failing lately , typical Garrett quality , bad bearings , poor balancing.
@@V8Lenny lol poor balancing - amd bad beaeings ..... thats real funny right there😀
@@TurboDirectSA all the Garretts from the factory have to be balanced before taken into use.
@@V8Lenny 100% agree with you however ALL turbochargers (regardless of brand) have to be balanced before leaving any factory ... The difference is ---- i have personally worked on the garrett production line in person in more than 3 countries and there is NO WAY that ANY turbocharger will leave these factories without being balanced - hense my somewhat previous "sarcastic" perceived, previous comment.
ANY turbocharger can fail, through 100's of causes, and through 1000's of failure mechanisms. Silly comments (sorry that is exactly what it is) like saying poor balancing and bad bearings is so far from the truth it's scary.
Factual comments like saying "PTE turbochargers are not burst containment tested" - hense their turbine housings burst when a catastrophic failure is experienced is to the point and true. Poor balancing ------ bad bearings ........ LOL
Garrett might have gone bankrupt for various reasons, but the bearings are manufactured by the largest bearing manufacturers on the planet - they arent "bad"
Poor Balancing ... id love to see a handful of failed G57's and ill show you a handful of failure mechanisms EXCLUDING anything balancing or "bad bearing" related.
They're losing money because more and more people are choosing to go with the more affordable competitor so ofcourse they're going to put out videos to show how bad the "copy" is 😂
Nope no money lost at all, the poor quality copies have a market that caters for the budgets that do not interfere with the genuine product fans who only want quality products. However the crowd who have benefitted from the shared info have saved their money and are grateful to us for it.
My pulsar g25 is running a dream. Seems like the internet is proving you wrong? I mean. I garett master dealer is never going to like a copy, right? 😂🤪
Copyright is clearly not applicable here as the turbo you have does not infringe on any laws. As a Garrett Master Distributor, i speak fact and truth. Whether Garrett or the next manufacturer likes it or not. There are pro's and con's for every product on the market today and facts are facts.
If you feel that you are happy with the product you have, then thats great stuff - enjoy it. I wish you many happy miles with the product.
Is it still running or it said bye bye long ago
Bulsh!twheel