M44 Submachine Gun: Finland Copies the Soviet PPS-43
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
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The kp/31 Suomi submachine gun in Finnish service was an outstanding weapon, but it was slow and expensive to manufacture. When Finnish forces began capturing Soviet PPS-42 and PPS-43 submachine guns form the Soviets in the Continuation War, it was very quickly decided that Finland should copy the design. This was a far simpler, far cheaper stamped sheet metal design that was not as refined as the Suomi, but much more efficient to make.
The Sudayev design was changed only minimally; primarily to fit the Finnish cartridge (9x19mm Parabellum) and magazines. They guns were originally designed to use the 50-round quad-stack boxes and 71/72 round drums of the Suomi, but also used the Swedish Carl Gustaf m/45 magazine that was adopted by Finland after WW2.
Two companies were approached to produce the M44; Tikkakoski and Ammus Oy. Ammus was unable to source raw materials for the project, and only Tikka put the guns into production. Marshal Mannerheim initially wanted 50,000, but the order was reduced to 20,000 - of which only 10,000 were actually made, due to limited material availability before the end of the war led to production ending. Another 400 were assembled from remaining parts after the war.
In the 1950s, a plan was begun to resume M44 production in order to completely replace the Suomi in Finnish inventory. However, this plan was interrupted when Sam Cummings of InterArms made a deal to trade Finland about 75,000 surplus Sten guns for Finland's supply of 7.35mm Carcano rifle (received as aid form Italy during the war) along with a melange of old machine guns. This was a sufficient quantity of Stens to handle the duties of the Suomi, and so the Sten went into Finnish service and M44 production was never resumed.
Those Carcano rifles were in turn imported into the United States, and this is why the majority of 7.35mm Carcano here bear Finnish "SA" property stamps. The same is true for the significant number of Chauchat automatic rifles in the US with Finnish property marks, which were also part of the deal.
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Yeah, plenty of Iron
indeed
@@Disinterested1 lmao
choked down a dry eggo waffle with a swig of cherry Dr. Pepper (god's nectar) as I read your comment. Couldn't agree more, I love this channel
The m/44 was given a nickname ”Peltiheikki”, which directly translates to ”sheet metal Heikki” (Heikki being a Finnish name)
Hank
Yank.
pelt hank :D
Tin-Henry equals Pelti-Heikki
@@vaahtobileet :DDDD
Engineering excellence: stripped down to the barest essentials, with nothing left to take away. Simplicity exemplified.
For wartime economy simplicity is not enough. You also need to make sure that the design can be assembled by chil... i mean unqualified personnel.
@@ntrf-xyz thought this was going to say "chill soldiers" before re-reading it xd
1 smg was worth 2 bolt actions imo. As the finn ambush tactics worked on speed and yeets.... a bare bones smg will shred a conscript or two same as a volley mosins.
@@AH-if8ik Me too. Only after 10 sec I realized he meant children. But if your chillin in your trench with some weed, you should still be able to use and maintain your gun. :D
Finland : invent Suomi
Soviet : copies. build PPD40, PPSH 41
Soviet : improve PPSH41, invent PPS 42
Finland : copies. build M44
meh.
Back when my dad was in the army, around the time they started implementing the RK62 into service. His rookie time he had been using the mosin in training and their corporals had the M44 because it was lighter. When dad got promoted to a corporal he got the RK62 and was kinda pissed cause he didnt get the light to carry M44
@@prfwrx2497 The RK is a larger rifle that needs to contain a more powerful round, made from milled steel instead of sheet steel. I don't see why that should be surprising.
I hope everyone appreciates that Ian has studied this information in detail recently, absorbed and thought about it, and planned out his approach . . . then just sat down and free-styled it for our entertainment.
You can't really understand how hard he has had to work his brain, unless you have tried this yourself. This is real work.
So that's where the Stens came. They were retired quite late. But then again, NCO school still taught the Suomi in the late 80s. If it works...
All the great guns are good for Janis Petke purposes
I believe Suomi m31 was still used at coastal artillery forts until late 90's. Not in conscript use, but as reserve weapons for limited use. Even Maxim MG's. I heard this from others serving same time. Unfortunately I was having some sort of influenza, when they were introduced these weapons. I served in Russarö II/97.
@Mäkirannantörmä Linnakkeella vai muulla?
Once again, Ian posts a video of a Finnish gun, and once again I am here to urge you to like and comment for engagement!
I've never had the opportunity to hold this gun even during conscription, but these "Pelti-heikki" guns are pretty famous.
The OY in Ammus OY is an acronym for "Osakeyhtiö", an LLC, so Ammus OY = Ammus LLC.
And "Ammus" would probably be best translated as "projectile"
@@foleymaj or Ammunition
@@foleymaj Projectile or a bullet (luoti) would be part of the ammunition (ammus/panos/ampumatarvike). Projectile is the part that leaves the barrel. Although in Finland artillery uses "ammus" for the flying part and in english "shell" is used.
As a comparison a finnish "ammusvarasto" would be "ammunition storage", ammunition consiting of all kinds of ammunition for both light arms and artillery.
And as it can be surmised that the company produced both kind of munitions, "Ammus" is an appropriate name.
@@alaric_ Which is why I resent the translation of "ammunition", as that is a plural. Ammus would be a projectile, a cartridge or whatever.
Maybe there's no good translation. Let's go with a singular form of ammunition, how about that?
That was an extremely satisfying 'clack' when the folding stock was opened. Extremely 'clacky'. Love it
Clacky, snappy parts are underrated. It is like a mechanical keyboard, but better.
We call that 'tactility'.
A good gun makes a good clickity-clack. This is law.
Finnish copy of Soviet gun made in Spain sold to West Germany.
…financed by Madagascar lol jk
@@larrymcjones Wut?
A small number of DUX smg was used by West German border guards.
What Ian forgot to tell about the users of this particular type of gun was also finnish border guards. They got alot of hardware from finnish military that the army didn't need. My father who was one of the border guards from the early 60's all the way to end 80's, told me the same notion that Ian had, that he preferred the M44 over the Suomi or a rifle in the long ski or foot patrols the border guards would do around the border zones.
A "grunt proof" sub gun. Simple, cheap and easy to use. What a long strange history of that weapon and the russian weapon it was based on.
Throw it to a few US Marines and we'll see how grunt proof it is. These are the guys who've manage to break acogs btw lmao.
@@rob119490 breaking an acog isn't that hard. You can do that by fumbling and dropping it. Pretty sure this would survive a few more oopsie drop tests.
Owing to the Russian philosophy on arms design, the PPS-43 wasn't perfect, but it simply didn't need to be. It was good enough. It earned the most prestigious accolade any military weapon can, and the Finnish thought so too.
"If it wasn't broke, don't fix it"
Wait, wrong gun lol
An old former German soldier told me that he was shot from about 25 meter with a Sten, 5 shots spread as wide as a closed fist. He said that the Sten was precise enough. Today a soldier is required to shoot from point blank to 400 meters and hit every time with a low spread as possible, due to collateral damage. In WW2 the question was, are they ours, if no, then shoot to kill maim or let them hide, 1MOA was not necessary then. If it was needed it then You called the sniper, or to keep their heads down, an mg with a lot of ammo. If a soldier in combat could get 5 shots in semiauto in 1ft at 25m they where very good shooters, good enough to send to the front. 3 feet circle with 10 shots in full auto at 25meters perfect! All this In combat conditions. The thing is pinpoint accuracy was not so much to strive for in a SMG, during the WW2.
@@dmg4415 Jesse what the fuck are you talking about
And still somehow german "perfect and overquality" guns mostly are not better than "good enough and low/middle" quality" soviet guns....... >_>
@@chadthundercock5641 hmmm a lot of words was lost from my brain to my finger, sorry for that, when I just NOW read it, it was rambling words. I tried now to tidy up a bit. My point was to be, that extreme accuracy that they want today was not needed in an SMG in WW2.
We were still taught the basics of M31 at the end of the 80's when I did my national service in guerilla/ranger type troops. No sign of M44's or Stens, M31 outlived both of them.
The "Oy" in Ammus Oy is just short for "Osakeyhtiö" which means stock company in English and isn't pronounced as one "oy" but separately "o y". And "Ammus" is ammunition in English.
Ammunition, or more strictly 'projectile'.
After the wars they made showerheads and such. There are hilarious print ads from that time showing a naked lady in a shower with "Ammus-Sytytin Oy" written in bold letters.
*ABLOY enters the chat.
Oy means LTD
Oyj means PLC
@@Caldera01 AB Lukko OY
1:50
Just a quick sidenote: "Oy" is actually an acronym of "osakeyhtiö" (limited liability company) and as such the equivalent of the English abbrevations "inc" and "ltd". That's why it's pronounced as two separate syllables. If you know IPA, it'll be /'o:.y:/, while an English approximation would be "awe-you".
I love how Ian still says “hopefully you enjoyed the video”…
As if he’s ever made one that we didn’t enjoy 😂
When my son was about 11 years old he entered a Jaycee Relay Race. He’d never ran track before and didn’t know everybody wore shorts. He came in jeans, to everyone’s amusement. He ran the last leg for his team - and came away the fastest runner of the day, and made up considerable distance to win. This video made me think of that day. How I wish I had been able to see it, instead of only hear and read about it. I was a single mom and had to work. My son was an amazing athlete. ❤️
The PPS-43 and M44 are among my favorite WWII SMG patterns. My favorite is the Owen though.
The Sten Interarms deal takes that "Lowest bidder" thing to a whole new level.
This is also why the IDF barely had any Galils
Sam Cummings.
Distant (not super distant) cousin of mine. Not exactly my favorite person.
@@lairdcummings9092My sympathy, our family changed our name a bit just before the Civil War in a disagreement over politics. Family, can't make 'em behave, don't own a backhoe.
@@RonOhio and renting one is expensive.
Yep.
Wonder what Interarms did with all those carcanos and obsolete machine guns? Sold the on the surplus market in America? And where did they get all those sten guns from? I wonder who got the better deal there.
That beep scared me abit, I was stretching a bit and the beep coincided with a sharp inhalation 😅
Got a little worried I had burst a vein in my head or something 😅
Glad you’re ok lol
Peltiheikki! My all-time favourite gun. Once we used the Suomi drum magazine (all stacked up) with the gun. Lovely slow rate of fire!!
I Love your videos, they are so educational and entertaining. They Remind me of when I used to watch the history Channel with my Dad, just less aliens.
History Channel is very funny! Everything in Earth was made by aliens! Maybe even this gun hahahahahahahahahahaha
Haha same, History Channel and The Military Channel with my dad watching countless WW2/war documentaries.
@@interlake2043 I wish I had a dad to watch this things with me... #SadMonke
@@interlake2043 Also, I remember watching History Channel about the nazi bell hahahahaha
About the finnish Sten Guns straight from finnish Wikipedia and cursed by Google translate:
At the end of the 1950s, the Finnish army exchanged a batch of obsolete and prey boot weapons with Interarms for 75,000 pieces, mostly Mk.III Stens, each gun also came with five magazines. The stens were renovated in Finland at the Kuopio depot, their bent parts were straightened, strap loops were made in them, the tip of the ejector was shaped according to the Finnish cartridge, the cartridge case was extended and the weapons were blue. After the renovation, they were stored for commissioning. They were used in service to a small extent, mainly as training weapons, for example by combat divers. The title of the Finnish army was 9.00 for Sten II and 9.00 for Sten III.
Names used in 1960s manuals are Konepistooli 42 for Mk. II STEN and Konepistooli 43 for Mk. III. (That is to say Submachine gun 42 and Submachine gun 43)
Soviets: did you hear that the fins carry straight magazines!, weird I tell ya
Straight? .......Magazines?
@@william6072 its a skyrim reference
@@william6072 the russian box mags were curved
@@william6072 KP31 and 44 had box magazines, 20 round mags being the most common. What Ian is saying is that Swedish mag replaced the 50 round casket mag (which was terribly unreliable) in '53.
+ Christian Wheilbreit I have heard that in russia there is 5 milj non-straight ppl. As much as people totally in Finland. So...is it good or bad...whatever...
My father got to use both a Suomi M31 and a Sten when he served his conscription in the 1970s, he said the Sten was such a horrendous piece of junk that when you've emptied the magazine you just throw the entire gun away and get a new one because the gun is not even worth the trouble of changing the magazine.
Is that the Rare Moldovian Mk4 Sniper Rifle?
I came looking for this comment
Mian Accolum sure has blessed this video too
The PPS-43 has always fascinated me because first production was in Leningrad during the siege. They were stripping metal from bombed out cars, broken bicycles, etc, so the production was an incredible feat of human resilience. I had no idea it birthed the Swedish K, this Finnish gun or the Spanish copies. I guess I always placed it in the same category of last-ditch "works most of the time" guns like the Sten. Now I know better.
Very glad to see this! I have a parts kit that I need to rebuild, this is very helpful.
The beep heard around the 5:34 mark had me looking at the smoke detector in my room. Took a while to realise it came from the video.
One of the things i love from this channel is when guns are disassembled, showing up the magic inside!
NiceVideo!
Forgotten weapons is just an essential Part of every gunlover that uses youtube and the internet active
Thank you Ian for showing me yet another piece of fine engineering,with perpess that I never knew existed.
The Fins look at a Russian weapons and say "Finish Him!" everytime. Flawless Victory.
5:32 the beep scared the shit out of me lol
As they say, “copying is the sincerest form of flattery!”
Its funny on your Beretta 38A video 2 days ago my first comment was I would prefer the PPS-43, I guess the finns felt the same way
If that bolt handle isn't welded in (pretty sure it is), that becomes a very expensive bolt, since you can't lathe the diameters
You hear those pps-43 from Finland got straight magazines? Straight. Magazines.
With the slow rate of fire that these guns have, they are probably a blast to shoot with those 70 round Suomi mags lol
Everything about the M44 is exactly like the PPS43 other than than the mag well and pistol grips
Hey, what do you know! Ian shot the thing ages ago, but I didn't even realise there wasn't a detailed video before now. Kudos!
Great history, you cant find this shit anywhere. One point, when you see "OY" or "OYJ" it means like "ltd", or "gmbh", Literally "OsakeYhtiö" and "JulkinenOsakeYhtiö", "StockCompany", and "PublicStockCompany" "AB" is same in swedish, "AktieBolag" For example the finnish lock company ABLOY is just, "Aktie Bolag Lukko(lock) Osake Yhtiö".
Point being, its not a word, it is an abbreviation. So you say it "oo-yy", like one would say "UU ES EI"
"Ammus" means "munition".
Sure you'd take a Suomi over it, but imagine being handed a STEN instead.
I have fired couple magazines with m44. Cyclic rate felt pretty low, but angle of stock doesn't help much in firing. With more practice than I have with this gun, I'm sure it would have served better than Sten's.
Not just a STEN, but a FREE!!! STEN.
@@Grubnar Sten is fun to shoot, but ergonomics and sights are pretty horrible.
Great story at the end there. Funny how a captured weapon/design that in its mother country was deemed good enough, inspired a copy in Finland that then ended up in Spain 15 years later and then that ended up in Germany. That is some interesting and cool backstory.
Are you and Karl psychic or something, both uploading Finn videos at the same time...
Or do you just communicate?
They were both in Finland recently for Finnish Brutality.
Don't mean to nitpick. But the Russian PPS-43's were chambered for the 7.62 X 25 cartridge. These Finnish MP 44's, for 9 x 19, (Luger cartridge). This could be quite confusing to the folks who would think a CG 45 mag, would work in a original PPS-43.
Thank you Mr Ian 😃!
last time I was this early, the Russians still were confident in their power in Finland
seeing as this channel deals with old/odd weapons Ian, care to take a stab at the Metal Storm at all?
Fun fact- the numbers on my KP-44 parts kit are lower than the Forgotten Weapons one.
I'm happy, even though they aren't matching.
the random shot timer beep made me flinch. lol
Love coming home from work to watch the newest episode before i go to bed. Gives me the best dreams xD
Where do you live?
@@gabrielnascimento1021 South Carolina. I work overnights is the thing
"Valmet wasn't interested" -- As one viewer already noted, Valmet was only founded in 1946, so it wouldn't have been a contender. However, Valmet ("Valtion metallitehtaat" = State Metal Factories) was a conglomerate formed from several formerly separate state-owned companies including the "Valtion tykkitehdas" (State cannon foundry) and "Valtion kivääritehdas" (State Rifle Factory) or VKT, which at the time produced most of Finland's domestic military small arms with the exception of the m/31 Suomi and the m/44, which were produced by Tikkakoski. Why VKT didn't produce the m/44 is a mystery, but they may have been fully occupied producing arms requiring extensive machining (m/35 pistols, m/40 20mm twin AA cannon, barrels for the m/39 rifle etc.) and ammunition to be interested in setting up a sheet-metal pressing shop. Also, their operations had been dispersed from the original Tourula factory to several safer locations (including underground tunnels) to avoid Russian bombing, so they may have had space problems. Incidentally, the name "Tikkakoski" is a compound of the Finnish words "tikka" (woodpecker) and "koski" (rapids); it is not Polish, though the ending might suggest so.
This is the damn video that sent the parts kits threw the roof. Lol
I love waking up to new gun videos
Just about every army in Europe began the war with the majority of it's troops armed with the equivalent of WW1 rifles. As the war progressed, everyone was looking to increase the firepower of it's soldiers. Especially true in Finland, with it's limited manpower; issuing more automatic weapons for increased firepower to make up for shrinking manpower reserves.
Germany did the same thing with it's "Volksgrenadier" infantry divisions it began forming in 1944. The number of men in the divisions had been reduced, but they were equipped with a higher percentage of automatic weapons; including whole platoons armed with MP-40 submachine guns and STG44 assault rifles.
HAH! Hearing Ian say Ammus Oy as if Oy was a word was rather funny.
For anyone wondering, it's pronounced O. Y. as separate letters because it's shorthand for "osakeyhtiö"=stock company or limited company. The mixup is understandable with them capitalizing the first letter of a compound word.
Willy Daug’s Owner Tikkakoski made DUX 9mm in West Germany in 1950’s
Very cool
Huh i saw this gun in a museum a while back, didn't know which gun it was when i was there, thought it looked like a pps 43 , but the drum mag threw me off. Luckily Gun Jesus has enlightened me.
You just know this guy fucks. What a baller. Love you Ian
You get to go to the coolest places. Thanks for being a big part of my sons interest in firearms and the 2nd Amendment. Continued success to you sir.
If you could travel back to 1935 and mass produce any smg of the next 10 years in prep to sell when WWII broke out.
Which design would tou go for as the best? Owen, Suomi, Italian?
Being British I go with Sten MK5 with a better magazine ie double feed. Grease gun in 9x19 would be good as well.
Make it 10 years after 1936 I could then have Carl Gustav M/45.
Try to some intermediate rounds design and sell them as submachine gun.
@@bozo5632 or just do a grease gun in all the calibers. The .45 bolt should be big enough to handle the more potent smaller caliber stuff.
Thanks Ian. I’ve learned so much military/industrial/economic history of my own country from your channel.
Am I the only one bothered by the sub-par quality of the wall behind Ian?
Sako is making new rifle that is based in ar10/15 model 7.62 NATO cal semi auto for Finnish defence forces. There is a version for snipers that replace dragunov and other more simple version for infantry support purpose.
Sako m23
The firing pin is fixed but also removable from bolt.
The "OY" in Ammus OY is an abbreviation for Osake Yhtiö, the equivalent of PLC. It's not meant to be pronounced as a word.
Just watched your IGN video game gun review and I was surprised to see they didn’t show you the AK’s from the game Escape From Tarkov. Just an oddball request but I remember the Battlefield 1 review, was wondering if you would wanna do one of Escape From Tarkov. I saw a lot of people commenting on the IGN video wanting to see it as well.
5:32 According to the lie detecter, the hand grip is actually the single most important piece of any firearm's functionality.
Great video
That has the be the Fanciest way anyone has ever pronounced Riihimäki. Riksuns,Riksuneers, Riksunians(?) should be proud. Its usually pronounced more like REEhimäki.
I always look forward to a new video from Ian. This is the best firearms related channel out there. 🙏
Ah, the dulcet tones of Ian's four-octave vocal range never fails to impress. And this was a terrific episode, too!!
Good video of a brutally simple gun, but what impressed me was the deal to simply swap useless guns for Stens.
"why is Ian whispering so much? *Menacing Beep* oh god"
Did my eyes deceive me or did the sear drop with the safety engaged?
It moved a little bit but not near as much as when the safety was off. The trigger probably isn't that great and has a lot of sear contact with the bolt for reliability so it's not that big of a deal to wiggle.
I want one of those so bad. I fell in love with the 7.62x25 cartridge when I bought a Yugo M-57. It is very accurate and has nice power to it.
Why you want 9x19mm smg if you like 7,62x25?
@@XtreeM_FaiL the PPSH-43 is in 7.62x25 the original version as I have been told. I could be wrong but the Russian didn't use 9mm they used 7.62x25.
@@biggerbehindthetrigger2814 This isn't the PPS. It is KP-44 / M44.
@@XtreeM_FaiL my bad
Your a legend man! Another awesome video as all the others are!!!
I love how countries copies(some "genuis" says steal) guns and ideas how to use this weapons.
ValMet wasn't interested perhaps because they wouldn't exist until 1946
well, while you are right that Valmet did not exist with that name until 1946, the company itself (or well the weapon department) had existed with a name "Valtion Kivääritehdas" or "VKT" for short since 1926. That is actually where Aimo Lahti designed Suomi KP/-31 as well, so you could basically say that suomi KP was a Valmet weapon too, even though the weapons themselves were mostly manufactured by Tikkakoski, since VKT did not have the machinery to produce them.
It was only after war when basically all state owned metal industry was put under the name Valmet, to simplify the process for paying war reparations to soviet union.
Other reason for the name change was also the fact that VKT (state rifle factory) was seen as quite aggressive and hostile name by soviet union after the war.
Anyways, talking about Valmet in the context of ww2 guns is in my opinion completely justified, since basically nothing but the name changed back in -46, when talking about the weapon department of Valmet (or VKT).
@@mikaelranki fair points, but valmet was a conglomeration of much more than just vkt, and I think it's always good to be accurate with these things
@@toolthoughts fair enough. My point here simply was that everything that was combined to form Valmet in the fusion after the war were already owned by the same "entity" because they were all owned by the state. Funnily enough, even Ian has multiple times referred VKT as "Valmet" since they are basically the same company when talking about weapons.
I think it was only on the 60's when Valmet was listed in the stock market and "privatized". It is also important to note the current Valmet we have has basically nothing to do with the Valmet on the 40's.
@@mikaelranki yeah, and since it's not really worth explaining all this to everyone, I can understand using terms and names a bit loosely. But Ian is seen as and quoted as an authority, so I don't feel too badly about nitpicking a bit now and again... :)
Who are the 8 folks who don't like? What's not to like here? Great program!
It’s strange, I usually watch these vids within the first few hours and there always seems to be 30-35 dislikes no matter what the views are.
Could these be from people that Ian upset over the years at shot show?
Actually, Finland bought 7,35 mm Carcanos with price of of GOLD from Italy during the Winter War.
That stock sounds like it's super loud when you lock it into place.
Peltiheikki 🥶
Tin plate toy, monkeys with cymbals also available! :-)
Even made cheaply the Finnish stampings are exellent
M44 may technically have seen some action during the Lapland War, but it's still very unlikely.
The closest it came to action was during the aftermath of the Suez Crisis, when Finnish UN peacekeepers carried it.
A video full of essential nutrients...I mean, nuts&bolts of a submachine gun which I never heard of before. Thank you, Forgotten Weapons!
Ian, the one thing you forgot to specifically mention... When the Finns copied the Russian PPS-43 they changed the caliber from 7.62x25mm to 9x19mm.
You weren't kidding when you said this thing was sheet metal, there's just metal, rivets, and washers
saw your video on ign recently, I agree with your analysis though my own actual gun experience is not extensive, you could try either Post Scriptum for ww2 guns or Squad for a more modern palette, would be awesome to hear you critique those games :)
Ian should make a video about the FNAB-43.
love that ammus OY!
How long are you in Finland for?
Are you doing any meetups?
You gotta love the magazine locking and stock unfolding clack!
Great video once again
I know its possible, but it would seem incredibly inefficient if the bolt and the bolt handle were one piece of material, would have imagined that it was dovetailed in ?
The whole world is copy paste.............
hey i own one these, i wonder how many of them remained through all these years