Why Many People Will Never Have A Career In The Film Industry (Part 2) - Shane Stanley
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ส.ค. 2021
- WATCH PART 1 (Big Reason Why Many People Will Never Have A Career In The Film Industry)
• Big Reason Why Many Pe...
Shane Stanley is a producer/author/instructor/screenwriter known for numerous film and television projects including Desperate Passage (1987) starring Michael Landon, The Desperate Passage Series (1988 to 1995) starring Sharon Gless, Edward James Olmos, Marlo Thomas and Louis Gossett Jr. Street Pirates (1994), Gridiron Gang (2006) starring Dwayne Johnson and Xzibit, A Sight for Sore Eyes (2004) with Academy Award nominee, Gary Busey. Shane is also the author of WHAT YOU DON’T LEARN IN FILM SCHOOL: A Complete Guide To (Independent) Filmmaking.
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No matter how you spin it, a hardworking trust fund kid has the upper hand versus a hard working kid with a few hundred dollars to his name. Is it fair? No it is not. I went to school with a guy who worked two jobs and took classes full time. The poor guy never slept.
His father was in the industry and had contacts that he could use. A lot of us don't have the contacts that can get us work. Also, if we try to talk to well known people in the industry or try to engage them they treat us like fans not as people trying to break in.
and even he couldn't break in completely, so your point is? Blame you didn't have a rich daddy?
Yea he did have opportunities that a lot of us don’t have but at the same, it doesn’t really matter. You figure out a way to make it work or you don’t. You can’t blame him for taking advantage of the tools provided to him. If my dad had a Rolodex full of contacts I would’ve use it too. But I don’t have any of those opportunities and I know you don’t either. Those things can’t hold us back though; we have to go out and make things work no matter what.
All I had was my Dad's Rolodex...?
Are you f#cking serious?
Make the contacts, I spent 8 years in LA and have made contacts through the years.
@@SWW978 He squandered it is what it's more like. He's basically what JJ Abrams could've been (both having dads in the industry and all the advantages).
I think he’s giving great advice based on his experience, your success story will be different than his. I know things are tough now but things will get easier. Stay motivated and keep chasing your dreams but in the mean time, learn your craft and keep asking questions. God bless and stay safe.👏
I'm sure people are going to be just as irritated at this video as they were with the other one, but I want to say this: no, most of us don't have parents in the industry but we do have something that Shane didn't when he was coming up and that's social media.Twitter and IG are often terrible BUT I will say this: I've made several great friends on Twitter and a few of them happen to work in the industry. And those friendships have led to some of them asking me, "hey, we need some BTS stills on set--you available?" or "I need someone to edit some footage--you down?" This is a reason why people stress living in L.A. so much: you're *bound* to meet and befriend someone in the industry. If they see your talent and work ethic I can guarantee they'll offer you a gig at some point where, if you're cool and hard-working and fun to be around, you can easily parlay that into future gigs. So, yes, having contacts via parents is obviously a huge leg up but don't let that stop you from making your own contacts. And isn't that more impressive, anyway? One more thing I'll add is try to be as well-rounded as possible: it isn't enough just to have ideas or a script these days. Learn the basics of photography, learn how to edit, how to color correct/grade, basic VFX. DaVinci Resolve is inarguably the best editor out there right now and the free version is 80% of what you get in the studio version. Our phones shoot 4K video now--Fincher's Zodiac was 1080p! Let that shit sink in. Sean Baker shot Tangerine on an iPhone. There's honestly no excuse anymore not to learn as much about filmmaking as possible and at least TRY. There are hours of videos here on TH-cam that break down shot composition/blocking, lighting, anamorphic vs spherical (anamorphic is better), lens focal lengths, what a gaffer is, sound design, etc. Bo Burnham just made one of the most talked-about movies of the year just yammering into a camera for 2 hours in a room. It's easy to shit on Shane for having a daddy in the biz but what stopped Richard Linklater from making Slacker when he was a "nobody" in Austin? What stopped Ava DuVernay from making her first short when she was a "nobody"? What stopped Chris Nolan from making Following (which took a year since they could only shoot on the weekends) when he was a "nobody" in London?And what's stopping you?
At some point this feels like a peptalk 👍
I see two strong points of view in these comments. One is "it's the luck of the draw, hard work does not necessarily lead to success." The other is "if you work hard enough you will succeed." Those are contradictory.
Yea but not many ppl are lucky to befriend someone. It's not that common or easy!
Social media is not turning out to be the way of solving problems that it was meant to be. Perhaps even the opposite.
I agree with everything you said and appreciate the eloquence with which it was expressed. I think people just want Shane to be honest about the leg-up - because it was indeed a *huge* leg-up. Just say, « Listen, I had help making contacts. And I worked in the family business at some point. That’s true. But we all have unique backgrounds and gifts. You too can succeed, here’s how... »
You can judge his upbringing, but guys, we can’t discredit what he’s saying in this video because it’s 100% true.
Prove it's 100% true. Find just one thing wrong and that disproves 100% truth. (logic)
Thanks for giving Shane a shot to come back and clarify. I watched the first interview and get the comments, I was thinking the same thoughts. But I might be a little older than some viewers and heard what he was saying. Pay your dues, get out there and do it. It aint comin' to you. Going to a great film school, graduating top of class, and saying "Here I am Hollywood, come get me" will get a good laugh at a stand-up routine.
I'm 79 and if there's one thing I've learned it's that the resources flow toward people who are willing, energetic, likable and giving. If they like being around you the day will come when they'll pay you to be around. If you're always thinking about what people should give you - God bless you and good luck. In hard times the people who do best are those who treat their clients as friends.
You know how so many Hollywood studio films these days fail to connect with audiences and feel as if they were cobbled together by non-interested creatives with zero appreciation for audiences? Maaaaaybe it's because the filmmakers who made them got where they are not from hard work or dedication to craft, but because they "knew a guy."
True.
In all fairness "In Hollywood, it's not what you know it's WHO you know" has been around for a long time.
you gotta "give head to get ahead".
Who said life is fair? there are kids that die from cancer, is that fair?
It would be cool if there was an intership loan like a student loan. It would purely pay for living expenses, so aspiring filmmakers can relocate and intern in places where films are constantly being made.
Having relatives in the industry makes it a lot of steps closer than other's
Second answer on the board: non-industry wealthy parents.
@@coolhrv exactly
Think of it this way, though: even if life isn’t fair, and nepotism is rife in Hollywood … now what?
Are we supposed to just give up, because others have it so much easier? Or are we still gonna try anyway, because we don’t really have any other choice?
@@corpsefoot758 for me I won't give up there's always another ways to go into the top you just need to be in the right time and the right place with a little bit of luck and put your talent all in with hardworking days
@@corpsefoot758 fuck hollywood you can make movies anywhere now! and who wants to jump into that toxic mess anyway. been watching a lot of 90s-early 2000s hollywood movies and holy shit is it obvious the executive class of hollywood is rotten to its core. people like to see marvel movies but its going to take a grassroots effort to bring story and strong character development back to the forefront and that's precisely why I ever tried getting in the business in the first place.
Shane's original comment was the TRUTH. You need to make CONTACTS. Both at your level and above.
Bill Gates said, it wasn't just that I got lucky once, it was that I got lucky over and over again...
You have to work hard to get that lucky, which he did.
@@MrRezRising Wake up early, work hard.. strike oil.. Didn't hurt that Gates came from privilege.
@@bivensrk Back in 1960s Seattle, Gates had access to one computer terminal at the local library where he put in over 10k hours of programming time before he was 17 (he hacked the terminal to get free time).
Then the Seattle telephone company hired him - at 16 - to rewrite their code.
Even if his family had money, the man bust his ass. His work ethic had a lot to do with his successes. You don't get lucky without putting in the hours.
"You only go to bed when your head hits the keyboard for the third time."
- Bill Gates.
His daddy was the only contact he ever needed
My film semiotics professor at university used to say that we have to change the idea of "the starving artist" because it promoted an unhealthy lifestyle and he gave us a lot of practical stuff alongside the film theory for our degree including financial management classes etc. So I understand why part 1 got the backlash. Having said that, I'm a nobody from Durban, South Africa and I got a development deal from the NFVF on my first try simply by busting my behind and just doing the work without a team or friend. All by myself. I'd like to go back to what Bette Davis said when she was asked "What advice would you give to an actor who wants to break into the industry?" And she said: "I'd say don't do it. If you have to ask me for advice it means you don't have what it takes because if you did you wouldn't let anything stop you. You wouldn't need my advice because you'd just go out and do whatever it takes". Ultimately that's what it is, if you don't have a boat, get in and start swimming in the shark-infested waters and the rest is Life. Harvey Keitel says that "life is suffering, when you figure that out you'll be fine".
Neat idea: so many people who give advice can only give one answer sometimes and there can be more than one.
Shane explains himself very well(I haven't watched the first service). The comments read to him are also understandable. I do think that cost of living is much higher than even 20 years ago (let alone price of homes!); however, Shane breaks it down clearly for me. But then again, I choose the path of a spec screenwriter and have a regular job that's not based around Hollywood. His dad handing him the rolodex was a great service. What a resume listed in the description!
The think about the rolodex is not that the son has a list of contacts, but more those contacts know his dad. Those are opposite forms of cause and effect.
Kristoffer Kristofferson, who was a lauded college student...as well as a well-respected/lauded military officer (a captain) and a military helicopter pilot...worked in a music studio as a janitor...so he could learn how to record, learn how to write music and make industry connections. That job led to him making friends with VIP music artists that recorded there and the executives who funded them. This eventually led to him being signed as a recording artist.
exactly, it's all about making connections. human connections. boom! lets go champ! lets go get da monayyy!
Because nepotism in the film industry is even worse than in politics.
everything he said translates to every other profession that's a craft. put in your time learn.and if you show up & prove yourself by learning the process correctly, you'll get called for more work. regardless of who you are or know, do the work.
but that model of meritocracy is not completely applicable to the filmmaking industry. it's who you know. lazy fucks get credit above heroic grafters. in a nutshell it's who you know, not what you know.
Shane is spot on. He is telling you that you have to be savvy, determined and tough. The system isn’t fair. There are lot of people who don’t make it that deserve to make it. Most of the elite industries have low probabilities of success. If you want to work in one of these industries go in knowing it’s realistically a long shot. If you think you have the Uber mix of intelligence, creativity, resilience, communication ability and hustle then go for it.
"The system isn’t fair. There are lot of people who don’t make it that deserve to make it."
So... the system is screwed up and no one whose in the screwed up system wants to change it, maybe because others who are better than them might fairly get their job. Can't have that.
"Most of the elite industries have low probabilities of success."
Define "elite Industry." What does that even mean. And do you have hard data on this "probability of success?" Again, why not fix things? Why should people want the system to be unfair?
@@henrytjernlund
There is a big difference between knowing and preparing for an unfair industry, versus actively defending the rules of that same industry
I don’t see how you think anyone is doing other than the former here. We’re just confronting the cold facts of today, even if we hope it all can change tomorrow🤷♂️
@@corpsefoot758 But why not fix, or at least try, to fix things. When people were being killed in automobile accidents the engineers didn't just say, life's unfair, deal with it. Not they did things like design a collapsing steering column so it would not punch a huge hole in the driver's chest. Safety glass was invented so that it would break into cubes instead of sharp dagger like shards. Air bags were invented. Brake systems with backup hydraulics were made. A headrest to help minimize neck whiplash. Why not do some things to fix it.
But if anything, it's the opposite. Writers and actors had to develop unions to prevent predatory or hazardous work practices by the studios.
@@henrytjernlund Forgive me, but it reads to me like you just answered your own question lol
You asked “Why aren’t people trying to fix the industry”, but then cited unions created specifically to help defend cinema workers. It’s a great step, and I’m sure there are more improvements to come in future
@@henrytjernlund when I wrote that the system isn’t fair I was referring to ever present serendipity and other factors that lead less competent people to find success. For example, some people talk a good game but ultimately may not be as competent. I never said I celebrated this reality. Please tell me how you propose changing this reality.
Second paragraph: Is it not self evident what the elite industries are? There is huge demand to be great and well paid artists in all of the genres of the arts. Many people competing for limited spots leads to low probability of success. Another example might be mergers and acquisitions at Goldman Sachs. Many people want one of the limited spots. Do I really need to do research for you?
I’m 58 and just staring my career (or at least trying) in film. I used to wash dishes, bussed tables, and did day labor on construction projects. I was proud of my work but to help you I would describe those as not elite jobs.
He's giving good advice but, did he say, "His father gave him his Rolodex?" And did he downplay the importance of that? Did he not say that his father said, "Here, now you have contacts IN the business?" Shit, I would kill for a rolodex full of insider numbers. Kind of sounds like (nameless) saying, my father only gave me a million dollars but I had to build the business by myself. WOW
Do you know how HARD it is to thumb through a rolodex???
@@grrb5929 I guess you can get carpal tunnel syndrome. If this was a fix of the first video, he's delusion and so out of touch. I wish I had someone I could call and say, "Hey, I'm off Saturday, I'll work for free if you can get me on the set." The only contact I have is sending DMs through instagram that they will never ever read.
Yes. And having a list of contacts is not the same as a list of contacts who know your parent.
@@VarsityOverdrive Did he go through all the contacts, or just a few? 5 contacts who know your father is better than 50 random ones who don't.
@@henrytjernlund he did say he called and said, "It's ( me ) (father's name) son. So he used the power of relationships to get that free workday. I'd be happy to have 3 people who know my father and that's enough for them to open the door.
We’re currently shooting our first TH-cam series and would post as soon its ready. Thank you for the encouraging words... finances is the major challenge I’d add because as creatives up and coming we have what it takes, hardly anyone believes in a process in this industry, they just want the product that takes an arm and a leg to make. Thank you always for the learning platform.
Best of luck to you and your team!
Sounds like bullshit honestly...dude had contacts in the industry from the get go and had insider knowledge through his dad.
This shot rem8nds me of Creepshow, when Ted Dansen was under water, drowning, and the red glow grew behind him.
Oh, the advice was pretty good too.
That's hilarious! It really does lol
I wonder if he really believes his dad didn’t help?
My first job after graduating from college with a sociology degree was volunteering in the counseling center. I proctored exams and typed up test results on an IBM selectric. An employee resigned just before I started and the staff encouraged me to apply for the job. I went to HR, applied and took the typing test. Forgot to snap the paper holder in place. When I pulled the paper out the print was slanted across the page.😳
I told the staff what had happened and they said don’t worry about it. I watched person after person come in to be interviewed. In the meantime I was taking dance class to keep my work study job at the library and the summer session was ending. I needed funds to pay August rent.
HR finally called me for an interview in August. I got the job and paid my rent. You cannot underestimate the value of making contacts, showing up and demonstrating your work ethic.
I very much remember watching the first part, and I also remember how discouraging the idea sounded to me. So, this video is really appreciated.
Shane is legit trying to be helpful, but he says "It wasn't until my MID TWENTIES that my dad hired me full time!" It's not a punchline, but I guffawed! He waited all that time, until his mid 20s, y'all!
Lol my ears curled on that part too.
Six years is a long time to wait for anything, nepotism or no.
That is correct. That was just how you did it back in the day. It's a tough business to break into. There were times where my offer of free labor was turned down. The plan isn't to work for free forever. The first movie I did get to work on for free (which was 16 hour days, 6 days a week for a month and a half), after all was said and done, I did receive a check in the mail from the producer because they came in under budget. It wasn't full pay, but it was a nice surprise, so you never know, you may end up getting paid something anyway.
I worked for free three days on an indie set that was way over budget. The people who were paid to be there made a point of showing us PAs different things they know that would help us in the future. The AD actually had a sort of long conversation with me about where to go in my town to develop and make contacts on the comedy side. I had so much fun working with those people and would do the experience again if I wasn't cursed on vehicles.
This is priceless. Thank you for being honest and open about the process that opens doors to opportunities. Cheers!
People have to understand in just about every business eventually you're going to (have to know a guy or girl) and then your enthusiasm, reputation, and skill level will speak for you. If you had one word in a marvel movie, but you were also the lead in a short film for free for the local college. Which one do you think a casting director/director/producer would look at 1st to hire you? You also have to understand its not Hollywood, its the entertainment business. There are thousands of people who make a good living who never step foot in Hollywood. If you want it...go get it
I wish people like Stanley could bridge the gap in their understanding and come out and say that "hard work" is really "vigorous social engineering." When I was in film school: my advisors were giving me all this networking advice, but not one of them told me that I was really honeypotting people with resources into liking me so I could exploit their favor to my advantage down the line. Sometimes that was a discount price on a lens rental and other times it was a free intern shift at a camera department so I could get the manager to like me and drop my name to a line producer when they came down to book equipment.
So basically I was being a fake friend to people with real goods. It fucking sucks not because it's work but because it's disingenuous. You're putting a lot of work into being a bullshit artist because you aren't given a shot by being yourself.
So a lot of the actual work comes in after you've spent hours building a reputation as somebody to trust and bring on. That's the "free" part: because you gotta put in your own time doing this flirting shit to get people to give you a shot at a job. The system Stanley talks about is mostly old-fashioned but what really irritates people is that it reeks of indentured hierarchies where a power dynamic influences the work environment and not a shared purpose. That sort of thing is a spawning ground for exploitation, especially when even big-name production companies are pinching pennies because so much of the budget is getting laundered off the payroll into Cayman Islands banks that tthey don't have any scratch available for real needs.
And all I can say is, you picked it as a career path. If this isn't your thing, why do it?
@@diegooland1261 It isn't just filmmaking, it's a lot of other careers where this covert brainwashing thing is part of the culture because the entire industry is designed to be obstructive.
@@Theomite I can say with a fair amount of certainty that if everyone stopped showing up for free gigs to get the "experience" and everyone stopped working 80 hour weeks with no overtime, and everyone just said no to the entire thing, things would change. But as long as enough buy into it and do it for "their shot" it will go on. I understand the desire but if the system is so perverse, I have to wonder about entering into the bargain.
I think the only way to stop that is for people to just start being more social, getting together a group, and making their own films for their experience. If they won't pay you (or you're not willing to do anything without pay), then you just gotta create your own positions with everything we have available to us today. At that point it's just going out if your way to tell your S/O or friends that you don't have much time to hang out with them for a minute unless it's about filmmaking. Somewhere there still has to be a compromise.
Joey Diaz, a comedian, mentioned that if you were a comic and told him about some vacation you went on, somewhere in that convo he's gonna ask you if you bothered to hit up any open mics in that time you spent doing nothing essentially. I wouldn't call that a starving arist mentality, but if you're gonna say you want this then you gotta go get it however you know in your mind that you have to.
Either wait for everyone to get on board to not do anything until it's paid, or go do your own thing until you don't even need the places you've been trying to work for anyway. They'll find you at that point if you're just regularly in the environment doing your thing.
I always appreciate these interviews and love the honesty. I used to be one of those interns that looked for opportunities to be on set and learn, but literally, every experience I've had has been terrible. However, that's made me learn the importance of treating all your crew with as much respect as you can including the PAs. I may not be making movies all the time, but I take pride in making sure that as an upcoming Producer, everyone on my sets have the best experience possible. Everyone will go their own route. You just need to find the one that works for you.
Everybody sees the good times, nobody wants to see the hard times that come with it. If you want it bad enough you will learn to move towards your goals in any way possible.
Doesn't matter. Those who got in by luck of the draw will tell themselves it was due to their "hard" work.
Glad you had him back to clarify his original comment 👌🏾
Listen up kids do what this guy did : ask your dad for all his Hollywood contacts and just ring them all and try hard! Easy! I don't see how anyone would complain that this advice is out of touch
I mean, it's systemic. It's not limited to moviemaking. Any kind of internship where you can afford to work for free means that the people most able to volunteer time "putting in their dues" are people who are supported by families and generational wealth. I'm not saying they don't work hard for free. But that the ability to work for free at all is a massive privilege.
Thanks to Shane for sharing and elaborating on his experience and opinions. I wish those struggling to break into the business would share what challenges they have faced and what steps they have taken so far rather simply criticize.
There are certainly people who have worked just as hard or harder, did everything right, and still failed. I took a weekend course in starting a small business. First day we watch a film about 5 people who worked hard and did everything right. After turning off the projector the instructor stated that a year after the movie was made, 4 went out of business and the 5th was barely hanging on. Most business startups fail, period. It's unlikely that success is within one's control. But those who do succeed will assume it was them doing something right, where in reality that may have had little to do with it.
I’m 100 in Shane’s camp with showing up, working for free and bringing your own lunch. The issue I’ve come across is that when you’re that gung-ho about a project people tend to be weirded out by that. Maybe it’s just those people and them trying to be “Hollywood,” not sure, but I have found rapport with others who are not from the Hollywood area and who are not trying to uphold an archaic way of working in the industry.
I have been paying my dues for 10 years. I’m an actor but I’ve worked in each department. I’ve PAed on 5 projects this year, I’ve been an AD twice this year, I’ve produced 3 times this year, and I’ve been an extra a dozen times this year. I did it to put myself in front of people and show them that I have what it takes and that I belong there. I’m always a positive force on a set and I prove it each time. It’s hard to make contacts in this business that are legit because there are many low level people who talk a big game, to coerce people into following them down their primrose path. You will make so many contacts that you come to realize aren’t contacts worth having, which teaches you to avoid those people and sets and helps you hone in on where you need to be and who you need to talk to to get somewhere.
@The Walking David
I'm glad you're able to hold on. Paying those dues is not an easy thing.
You're right, a lot of people talk a big game and will certainly waste your time. The time is wasted by the time you find out.
Keep slugging away and I hope you find the success you deserve.
Great info. Cheers
It's a tough pill to swallow but everything this gentleman states is accurate. I interned in TV for some time (actually it was part of a telecasting associate degree program) and while plenty of resources were available to us, those who excelled were the ones who would stay in the studio until midnight - the ones who found ways to get their hands on EVERYTHING - the ones who would gladly show up for a five hour shoot if only to help wrap cables (god, so much cable to wrap in TV.) I sadly was NOT one of those folks because I was in my early 20's and thought I deserved everything NOW without paying the dues and in fact was a pretty destructive toxic fellow to be around, if I'm being totally honest. And I regret it because I actually DID have a smattering of talent but my work ethic was shit.
The folks who have problems with what Shane is saying sound a lot like 20 year old me. I didn't understand then that it's not about the prestige or being "noticed"...it's just about the work.
that may be the reality of working the the media, but I think it's a fair counter-argument that an unpaid intern shouldn't have to exploit themselves to the extent of physical exhaustion beyond regular working hours. Unions were formed for a reason. Why should one's passion to work and learn be compromised by the limits of their mental/physical stamina?
we've seen from leaked recordings on film sets of major productions that cast and crew can be bullied and abused.
@@roathripper Here's the problem with that mentality though. The movies, the arts, television...they don't owe you anything. Now, does ANYONE deserve abuse in any setting? Of course not. And those who engage in these putrid behaviors should be called out...as, I think, they are, now, finally. Will you meet utter troglodytes in the entertainment biz? Most definitely. But hell, you meet total trogs at the corner Walgreen's too. I'm not entirely certain these folks with faulty potty training are endemic to the film biz, I think they're merely endemic to life in 21st century USA. (though I must assume there are ample assholes in Europe, Asia, and Scandinavia as well...) There are a million ways into this business and no two seem alike. So whoring your entire soul out as an intern will or won't get your script sold...perhaps if you're in that scenario and you feel your passions compromised, it's time to try a different angle?
@@JeffMesserman if you're in the workplace, actively contributing your time and energy then it's seems obvious to me that you should be renumerated for your contribution, proportionately of course. Therefore, 'they' DO owe you something.
I find your insight and self-awareness to be very interesting! Thank you for sharing your story.
@@roathripper I agree with what you’re saying and I think the mentality of ‘the last person to leave the building is the hardest worker’ is prevalent in many industries. It’s a current reality as you said, but an unhealthy one. Because it’s not a good value to expect from anyone. I appreciate people who see me working excessively long hours and tell me to go home. There are other things in life which need your attention...
I appreciate Shane's insight, sharing his life experiences! Thank you for all your videos! Btw, you should be called Film Encouraged 😂
This is the same fella who said you should work for free right?
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
Maybe those people weren't good though and needed experience to improve?
@@jbainbridge22 that could definitely be a thing but even interns get paid something each month. Interns are the lowest of the lowest I know that since I am one at the moment. We get around 500 a month. You can't really do anything with that but you're not a slave
@@NomisArchives :)
If you’re truly good at something, you wouldn’t be working for free. However there are many reasons why a professional chooses to work on a project for free (1) build new contacts (2) amass favours for when you are shooting something low budget and need unpaid / low paid worker yourself (3) learn new skills esp as things like virtual film making ramps up. Not all payment is financial, it can come in education or in kind / favours. If you think your time and knowledge are so valuable that you need to be paid for every second of your time, there’s a thousand other people bringing up the rear who’ll gladly do what it takes to get ahead.
The film industry can't really think we don't notice every time the headrests are gone from the front seats on interior vehicle shots.
... I never noticed that... 😂
Shane I hear you. You are absolutely right.
Great video as always Shane knows what He's talking about. work for free but be smart about it & it's always good if you have another job . The Pros of working for Free on set experience ,contacts ,it can be fun . The Cons , long hours ,no pay ,uncomfortable conditions ,some times high stress or working with horrible people . You just have to be smart and do your best with it and try not to get in a vicious cycle of working for free for years on end .
Thanks for posting Jonathan!
@@filmcourage my pleasure
Some people meant to be working in that industry will have absolutely no problem being chosen and successful.
Anyone remembered what Mr. Rogers Moore once said?
YOU HAD A FATHER IN THE INDUSTRY? OH TRUST ME THAT ACCOUNTS FOR ALOTTTTT!!!!!!!!! LET'S BE REAL! CUZ THAT ALONE MAKES U..................SOMEBODY CUZ U KNOW SOMEBODY, WITHIN THE INDUSTRY ALREADY AT A POSITION!
Like you can't even compare this to somebody who knows litterly nobody. It's just not the same chance.
Like all the doors were already open.
All caps is for kids, calm down.
If you're not good at what you do then it doesn't matter who you know.
Calm yo nose
Love this guy
This is great. I got to hold myself back from commenting “this person is right” to some degree on most videos.
That rolodex he had access to was massively valuable and those people knew he was his father’s kid. Who you know and relationships are everything in the industry. This interview is giving Kim Kardashian “Get your ass up and work” vibes… He may be overestimating his effort and underestimating his privilege.
There's a massive underestimation on the value of having someone who'll even pick up a phone on your behalf for a low-level job or share a list of contacts to make your own way.
Tbh this interview is 🔥 too. I hope people don't take it in wrong. He giving out real as he knows. A intern position just to learn anything even if for free would be a definite opportunity in my eyes too!
Way for some to have a shoot the messenger mentality. This guy was trying to be helpful by giving people some advice. You can take it or not. I'm sure he didn't mean this is the only way, but rather a way that has a measure of success.
I'm not surprised though. Many people want success just handed to them or want to put in a minimal amount of effort, if that. And that is one of the reasons they will not be successful in the industry's that they want to successful in.
This is why there are unions. Don‘t work in the industry if your „employer“ is not union-compliant. Don‘t be an intern all your life. This will only destroy your life and make „them“ rich on your back. The „dream“ is not worth that much.
I sold everything I had to move off the navajo reservation to ABQ NM to pursue a career in the film industry. I worked and interned for free on non union shoots and worked at a film rental house. And I still took community college classes in film production. I would quit a job to get on set. I have great film etiquette skills, I always knew I was beings taken advantaged of; but my mindset was more about gaining the knowledge of a craft I worked and carrying that knowledge and skills to other sets eventually becoming a union member in 28 months. And now working in the film industry. Last week I worked under the great Walter Hill and academy award winner Christoph Waltz. Granted I don't have kids or a spouse. But that was my focus.
Congrats Matthew! Sounds like you were willing to do a lot of work that others wouldn't do, and because of that you are gaining invaluable experiences while possibly building relationships that can help you moving forward. We think it is powerful when someone gives us everything to pursue a goal. Love to hear that you are finding your way. Keep creating!
tl;dr
1) Worked with his dad at age 16 to get his first Emmy.
2) Worked for his dad since age 25.
3) Had access to his dad's Rolodex and a solid "Hello, I'm Lee Stanley's son" phone introduction.
4) Had resources to be able to have a life where you can work for free.
5) Hard work.
Looking back theres some sets I would have paid to volunteer with
Yes, "Get in the water and start swimming."
Not difficult if you know daddy's boat will pick you out of the water before your head goes under the water.
When I moved to LA in the 80's, it took me months to get my 1st job and the only reason I got my 1st movie job was I had done internships in college for a local commercial production house in Nashville and a film sound studio in Chicago. After college, I worked for the commercial house for a couple of years to save for my move to LA. I was one of 2 people in my graduating class to get a job in the entertainment industry. Lots of places will not hire you today unless you have done internships in college.
I worked on a few movies in different positions (there were no film schools in Tennessee at the time but I still did film involved internships) as my own form of film school. When I realized I had no chance of being a director, I decided on camera. I called all the AC's on the films I worked on (keep those crew lists!) and picked their brains. They all said there was 2 ways to get into camera. Either work for them and earn decent pay immediately and they'll teach me everything someone else had taught them or I could get a job at a camera rental house, earn crap wages but learn everything there was to know about cameras and meet a whole bunch of working AC's and DP's. I got a job at Panavision Hollywood (making crap but livable wages) and went through their 2 year program for AC training. I started out scrubbing cases, then moved into shipping cameras in and out of the facility and for the last year, prepped the camera packages, tested them, then helped the AC's gather their their package, pulled extra equipment and even trained them on new gear to get them familiar with all the tech we had to offer. On the weekends, I would help teach a UCLA Extension course on how to be a Camera Assistant for extra money and experience - if you know enough about something to teach it to multiple people, then you truly know your craft...or so the saying goes.
I worked until 2000 when the industry basically moved out of the country and all the DP's couldn't take me because I was not a local (I didn't have enough money to make the move to Canada (lawyers, bank account in Canada with I think $15,000)). 80% of the AC's I worked with are no longer in the business...it was a bloodbath.
Took me months to get into the business in LA (first film I made $100 flat for 90 to 100 hours week....yes 100 hours a week. I was FILO...First in Last Out. I was assistant craft services and was happy as a clam...I had my foot in the door.) After that, I never got a job with a resume...always had to turn one in but only as a formality - all my jobs were through recommendations. I knew others who got their first job in a week, working for Amblin - yeah that Amblin and he had been living in Indiana just a couple weeks before with no connections. Some people will work on low budget for years before getting that first high paying gig while another person (with no film experience) will meet someone at a party and be working on a Michael Bay film in a couple of weeks. That's the way it happens.
It's a very rough business. Some will make it and most will not. Do internships. If you want to direct, do that on your own. It's very affordable these days. When I started, people were spending $60,000 to do a 10 minute short. This was before the DV revolution. Now you have TH-cam to gain an audience. Whichever route you take, don't talk about it, just do it. And don't let the rest of your life fade away. People have lost their families in this business. Divorce, kids hate you because you're never home, etc. Try to live your life with balance. Some people let this business drag them into a dark hole and I know several people who took their life because of this.
Be flexible, be kind, be curious but know when people are abusing/taking advantage of you consistently over time. Seek a job elsewhere. There's good and bad out there. React accordingly.
Sorry for the length...
I appreciate the length. Thanks.
I was part of the "bloodbath" the media industry took in the 90s. Very dark times.
In other words, its not about what you can do, its about who you know. Like everything else. We don't live in a meritocracy.
I like how he just blows off the fact that his dad gave him his Rolodex. How arrogant !
So entertainment runs on the unpaid labor of those born fortunate? Got it.
I work in film and what he says is true
The industry is based on relationships
And it takes time to build trust for those relationships to call for you
A rollerdex is huge. Shane needs to think about that.
It's the same in many artistic endeavours, money speaks, having that financial back-up makes it much easier for those fortunate enough to have it. Heard one guy talking about this same thing when it came to stand-up comedy and how it's dominated by the middle classes, think he may have gone to GBNews, but what he stated was true and in a nutshell that was, after working twelve hours (and then travel time) doing any housework and so on, are you in a fit state to run through routines and then head off to a comedy club to perform... for most us no way. I'm currently working a day job that really is impacting my own writing and pursuits that feed it, I wish I could say to hell with it, but sadly I have to manage as well as possible.
In regard to this response video, I think we'd kill to be handed a list of friendly contacts who will take you seriously, because as stated by another here those within the industry view those trying to break in with indifference (sometimes ridicule). I think it's harder than ever to be heard and true diversity (the creative kind) is all too often dismissed.
So what is going on here? Are film schools telling their young and idealistic students making it in the film industry is incredibly hard and the students are blowing off the advice? Or are schools down playing the difficulty and sending graduates out into the real world very unprepared to actually make it in film? And how many students do film schools take each year vs. the demand in the field? 100,000 students vs 5,000 actual entry level slots per year? That's an incredibly dishonest business model, if you ask me, but it sure fits with the industry.
Thank you for allowing Shane to come back and clarify his original words. I understand what he’s saying, but I think the reason why his words still chafe is because he’s refusing to acknowledge the tremendous leg-up that he was given. There’s nothing wrong with having those opportunities - that was *great* for him - but dude, just be honest about it. It reminds me of reading Ivanka Trump’s book, in which she insists her success within Trump Inc. had nothing to do with her family status. We all have some degree of luck in life and it’s kind of disrespectful to our helpers and mentors to not shine just a bit of light on that reality when you’re giving advice. Maybe Shane hasn’t stopped to think of it long enough to realize how fortunate he was...
I’m doing that now doing free roles
He explains life.
working free in ANY industry you truly love is not optional, it's a right of passage...
What other industry would require as much labor and working for free to move up?
As much as films waste on feature film sets they can def afford to have people on. It's all about who you know and if you've got a family member already in the industry then you get a chance. If you don't have family and generational ties to feature films the chances are slim to none.
I worked on features from the early 90's to the mid 2000's as a p.a., camera p.a., 2nd, 3rd a.d. Everytime it came to me getting an opportunity to get a chance to get unionized I was put aside and some other production persons kid would get that particular opportunity. It's all bullshit.
Literally all the producers I worked for had kids younger than me and now those guys and girls all have major production companies and shooting major films all around the world. It's all inside and they only have interest of keeping it in the family, doesn't matter producers, camera, hair/make-up, props, wardrobe, transpo, craft service, grip, electric, carpentry. If you're not born into it they've no real interest in helping you succeed but they will give an oscar winning performance on pretending as long as you show up at 4am and make sure all is safe and secure by midnights wrap.
The best way to do it is to pull an Issa Rae and just start shooting your own stuff and creating your own project, if not it's literally a waste of your lifetime and after they use you up you will never hear from any of the people you worked so hard for. Never.
I worked on shows that had oscar award winning actors, directors, cinematographers and prodcers from pre production to post and after nearly 30 years still never given any real chance to get grandfathered in to the camera or a.d. unions. They only want to use you. Leave the old film world alone and start your own project. You'll learn just as much. Or if you do decide to try and get on a set don't expect anything and be prepared for everyone you meet who pretends to be your friend because your doing everything they ask you to do to not ever answer any of your phone calls once the shows wrapped. REal Talk.
The gall of this guy. He just want more interns working for free. Yeah, you'll make contacts that will invite you work for FREE again.
As of a couple of years ago, it's illegal in California to do deferred pay or have people work for free. I think you can get around that if it's a day here, a half day there but it's something every indie producer should keep in mind. You don't want to get in trouble with the Department of Labor.
What are the pros and cons for working on a production for free?
Pros: Experience and networking. Cons: NO MONEY!!!
I've never had an opinion of a person turn so quickly.
Economic injustice is a crime. No one expects him to single handedly change an industry. But we do expect honesty about his own privilege and economic injustices within Hollywood.
Nepotism is the anthesis of a meritocracy. It's a rigged system
I really like this guy.
For a lot of years I've promised myself that if I was ever approached by H-wood to buy one of my short stories I'd tell 'em to make like a horse turd and hit the trail.
This fellow, I think I can trust with my product. He'll respect my stuff and won't screw me over.
so true. not everyone can sacrifice for to achieve their goals. if you didn't understand it by yourself, and even left a comment like in the video stop watching this and go work at office job
DIS A LONG VIDEO FOR JUST SAYING 'NOT A JEW' AS ADAM SANDLERS SONG WOULD SAY
I think part of the problem is that people are focusing too much on Hollywood and not enough on new media.
TLDR- Both the commenters and he are right but are talking about different things also he really does NOT understand his own leg up.
Put simply he had contacts and people thinking well of him (at the least neutral) out the gate. But most importantly he KNEW people that had made it. They had done those jobs and he could do it too. If you are a black kid from downtown that has to keep family feed and household going and you don’t believe that the world will let you on that set - you are much less likely to have a chance. And it is not about desire or toughness - it is a reality you can’t even grock.
If you are a white male nothing it handed to you but try being a Mexican-American girl and you really want to see how that camera $25,000 works or a black boy with a southern accent and you want to check out the props and trades that make the magic happen. Little rlly things are pulled farther away from you. The reality of race, gender, regional and class barriers says you have a very much smaller chance of getting in the door….
BUT
You can do it. Maybe you access people without them seeing you with a stage name and get to the set. Show up and then sell yourself at the door and at the end of the day make sure they knew it was good for both of you and try again. Don’t take no for an answer. If you want it, get as much as you can in contacts and experience and believe it will happen in a few years. That is what everyone seems like they are saying. All are right and all are ideas to be understood!
BUT how to make contact ? :(
Here are some answers m.th-cam.com/video/bujvtLGQNi8/w-d-xo.html
I made 10 movies...drive the same shit car and sit Infront of the computer for the last ten years, editing, learning everything about film and delivering for hopeful success
I get the grind of it all, but to say schools aren't teaching the hands on cleaning of lenses or grip work is a vast misunderstanding of the schools. Both NYFA and LAFS teach the practicum of on-set procedures. or at least they did when I was able to be there. I don't regret working for free, because I found my calling in the Writing and Directing of it all. Currently doing my stint in Meisner to better understand the actors. Feeling like the assumption that someone would love to do something based on the factor of competition is an issue that hurts more than helps, but then again it may go into my own displeasure of being at the mercy and whim of another {who may not stack up to my ideal for the billet they are filling} The best guidance I've heard from this channel is to simply make your own work, and develop it well. People love looking at others so if you really are great at the role, why not let the work speak for itself instead of hoping for permission from someone?
desperado hat guy
These kids can’t figure it out. The fact he has to clarify is very sad.
Quentin Tarantino worked for free until he wrote From Dusk Till Down, his first paid writing assignment. And I think he got $1,500 for that. And before anyone says "he got 50k for True Romance" he sold True Romance for that much but No one hired him to write it.
@H Z I don't know. I asked the same question. He sold it directly to the director of the movie, Tony Scott. My guess is that he networked and made the right connections and put himself out there. He really believed in himself. I'm mean seeing how animated he is on camera I can see how people can gravitate to him.
He doesn't get it. He never will. You simply can't if you've always succeeded in the film/television industry. And yes, this guy has always succeeded in the sense that he always got those jobs, even if they paid him nothing or he had to 'hustle' in between. Like he said, he knew people in his Father's rolodex and he used that opportunity to get work in the field he wanted to go into. I'm sure he worked hard. Fine, but don't take the high road and claim you didn't have a significant leg up. The fact is Shane, Daddy made a difference in terms of how likely you were to succeed. Doesn't take away from your work ethic or determination, but don't deny it. You may not have succeeded had you not had those opportunities in front of you. Be humble about it.
I worked in British Television as a runner/PA, but only forged a career in editing/videography after quitting, leaving London, going back to working in a pub in my hometown and assisting local videographers at weddings every now and then (which I was paid for). I also volunteered working on student films at the University in my area (even got paid for a couple of these too as they raised budgets). This notion that 'paying your dues' means working for free in most industries is highly unusual. The only reason Hollywood/the upper realms of film/television gets away with it is because they can entice young people who want to be successful. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out like that, no matter how hard you work nor how many jobs you do. Trust me, I've met people who made themselves miserable pursuing this sort of nonsense when they could have spent the time and energy putting their filmmaking talents to better use. There's more to filmmaking than succeeding in Hollywood or those 'big industries'.
I was born in Los Angeles and it is the easiest city in the world to meet people in the film industry. It’s hard not to meet them. Connections mean nothing if you have nothing to contribute and you’re a complainer.
George Miller was a doctor during day, and on his free time he made Mad Max. He used most of his doctor salary on Mad Max, because it was his passion. He also had actual motorbike gang that played Toecutters gang. Apparently they made for beer money, and showing that they are not criminals.
The movie industry as we know it is over. This work for free or intern bullshit makes less sense then ever. Make your own movie with your friends or forget about this because its a pathetic dying industry and this guys the dinosaur. What a joke.
The comments read to him make you weep for the newest generation.
The newest generation is doing just fine, and I say this as a jaded Gen X-er.
This guy (Joel Haver) made 150 films and he's in his early 20s. Problem is a that most people don't want to actually make movies. They want to TALK about making movies and whine that they're not working on the latest Marvel film.
th-cam.com/video/tvs4Sp5WkXA/w-d-xo.html
Yes. Listen closely.
Reality.
Shane...you lost me at "...my Father..."
This advice is very basic idk how u guys misunderstood . I’m currently doing PA work for my university , got to start somewhere
Hmm... strange. Sound like my dad.
Exactly I dont believe these I cant pay the rent people who otherwise Netflix binge 6 seasons in a weekend but think they cant volunteer 6hrs a week
I don't get why everyone wants to work in movies and TV. It's basically a sweatshop from what this guy described. "Go work for free." No thanks, I can starve and make art without you. 😂
I would only work for free if I'm learning how everything works🤷
Interns are still exploited.
so his friend got a job from his dad, swept the floor for 3 hours a day, then got a job? I mean, I get his broader point, and I agree with it, but he doesn't realize how entitled he sounds.
Once the rose tinted glasses and the kudos of "working in the film industry" dies off the reality sets in your doing 12 + hour days for maybe 30 days straight surrounded by too many assholes with big ego, say goodbye to your social life, your friends and your family and thats if your one of the lucky ones, the people who get work are the ones who are best at kissing arse (networking I think its called) - not a fun lifestyle to lead