BEWARE: Even Old Guys Are Evolving!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, the caller faces off with an aggressive older player. Bart discusses how hand reading applies and how we should use logic to narrow ranges street by street.
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0:00 - Intro
1:28 - Preflop
2:43 - Flop
3:43 - CLP Content Reference to "Same Bet" concept
5:53 - Turn
10:12 - River
14:24 - Hero Decision
14:33 - Reveal
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Would you have flicked in the call or leaned on the old guys don't bluff enough exploit?
I'm shoving the turn after he bets
It's a call for me. You will see some limping with KQo in a straddled pot, but way more KXs QXs, and all those heart combos could take this line. I think JTo will sometimes overvalue their hand and bet off thinking the caller could be the one on missed hearts.
I was actually surprised caller or Bart didn't call out K9h Q9h A8h as likely hands here that could be bluffing. Limp-calling those suited single broadway hands is so common.
@@paullosch1168yeah I agree. He limp-called so he can have a ton of heart combos. I’d add Q8hh. 98hh, 97hh, 87hh.
Good hand. Tough spot for hero on the river for sure, and well-played by the old guy too
Yeah we're all on the road to becoming OMCs one day! With a little luck and maybe a few good decisions along the way hopefully everyone watching will make it there!
Pretty well played by both. The only real mistake (aside from the results-oriented fold at the end) seemed to be the limp-call by Villain.
Interestingly enough, if I were playing as the Villain, I probably never win this pot. About 80% of the time it's a fold with Q9s in the SB, 20% bluff raise to $40 against a button limper in a straddle pot. Following the latter, AJo calls from UTG straddle, and I lead with a c-bet of 75-133% pot with the range and nut advantage and get called. Again lead with 66-100% pot on the turn and called again, where having the Q and two heart blockers I can assume I'm likely against at least Ax. At this point after the river brick, I give up and think the opponent in a low stakes live game never folds an ace. Which is great when my draw hits and I stack the opponent.
Is that a leak in my game to avoid the quadruple-barrel bluff in a spot like this, particularly when someone calls a big bet after an ace hits the turn?
OMC type players seem to be dying off, and I don't mean that in a dark way. Some of the most aggressive people I've played against have been 65+.
Important to label opponents correctly. Old person doesn’t mean OMC.
Agree that there is a growing segment amongst the older folks like myself who are getting much more savvy with hand reading, bet sizes and exploits….and countering exploits. I had a young pro target me in a recent game based on stereotypes and expectations. I manipulated my play accordingly and it didn’t work out well for the villain.
you probably open limp AK
I'm 63 years old and going downtown again tonight to make money on 20 something easiest poker money I ever make. They constantly overvalue their hand and mine as well. Easy money😊
@@truth1013I LOVE It when someone overvalues a hand like 1010 or JJ postflop and I "bust" them on my ace high flush draw and drill an ace lol. Gets 'em every time!
@@brianpotter2812 that's called a suck-out brian. not cool.
@@thomasdwantripplebarrel12 outs twice isn't much of an underdog. But anyway I took his point to be about non -believers calling big bets when they can no longer beat top pair.
This is a great poker room. Staff friendly and the manager Greg is great. Glad to have this hand on here
Cool story.
@@jambreakfast4341definitely is cool to hear rooms get appreciated
@@jambreakfast4341I thought it was cool.
It is a good play by the villain because when hero flats the turn bet, he very rarely is going to have broadway.
It's the barrel on the turn that gets villain that fold on the river. If villain check calls the turn he gets looked up for sure on his river jam. Then he shows the bluff (notice that he was bluffing turn with a HUGE draw) so that he gets paid for his value next time. He probably won't bluff again the whole night.
No shit
Tough spot, and it's easy to stay after the fact, but I think in this instance you just have to call. If we're dismissing JJ and TT, I think we should also be dismissing most KQ. Something that wasn't discussed is that his turn sizing is very similar to his flop sizing, and appeared to be chosen specifically to leave himself a pot sized shove on the river if he missed.
I would heavily discount KQ here. Mainly bc the guy that limp calls KQ imo is unlikely to play KQ this way on the flop. Another thing that sticks out to me that was never mentioned in the call was the turn size of $210 after check raising the flop to $150. In my eyes this is like that same bet size that Bart always points out just a more savvy execution. Player realizes that betting $150 looks super weak so he went slightly over $200. Some people take these sizings w value but they don’t wake up and bet $900 on the river they milk and go like $300. The only value hand that I think might take that turn size is KhQh which I don’t think is in range. However I make all these assumptions in game and usually when they bet massive and I call bc it doesn’t make sense I get shown the nuts lol. I’m calling here though.
love the last part. great read.
whenever you're not sure what's V doing, put more pressure on him. He'll speak. Yes, sometimes putting more pressure would result in losing more chips...Ohhh, well, this is a poker. Not comfortable with losing? walk by a poker room. The worst scenario is what H played. He played all streets wrongly! (except pre flop).
At lot of hands that I see raised on flop and barreled off in this spot is Jx hearts particularly QJ, J9 maybe even KJ. They would also Barrell the A turn because they mistakenly think it’s a good bluff card even tho the pfr has continued to the turn. I’d definitely never fold this hand in this spot. Flopped thick value hands do not continue with this line on this turn. Not even 44. Maybe rarely but not usually.
That was a good call. Tough hand. I really don't know what I would have done.
3-bet flop or FOLD! No other option is good. At all.
Now, which one to do in this particular case? Depending on V profile.
a) TAG: fold. You're owned. (facing limper, you're against 2 pairs at least or a set). What's the point calling?
b) LAG: 3-bet without any hesitation. He is playing you, BIG time! If you get called..fine. You're IP, just check turn back if not sure whether to c-bet. On rivers you're IP again. If V was full of it...he will not dare to bluff (you put a scare in him on flop). If he does hammer again - fold. He probably gotten his draw completed!
Caller was a CS, and V knew it. So he decided to 3 barrel it sensed a weakness (on flop!!).
@9:39 Merry Christmas Bart! Question here... since a check raise with an ace high flush draw is a distinct possibility, why are we eliminating that with a turn bet? OMC check raises with Ace high hearts and turns top pair, I think he still continues thinking his Ace is good at some frequency.
I was thinking the same thing. If I have a huge heart draw and I turn the A, I take a card a lot.
I think it gets discounted with the river jam. I think they address something like that i.e. that hand likely checks with showdown value. Jamming river for around pot size would be pretty peculiar.
agreed on river, but action was on the turn when the ace high flush was discounted@@KenDavis-uo8kq
Yeah I'm confused here too, Bart specifically says he discounts the nut flush draw when the opponent bets the turn - If he had the nut flush draw on the flop then he still has one more card to hit it and also just made top pair.
@@KenDavis-uo8kq you are correct, it would be bad poker. You'd only get called when you were beaten. -EV over the long run for sure.
in terms of nut flush draw possibilities, does AJhh call/limp pre in that configuration?
Stopping at the V's "all-in"...if we don't fold flop, I think we can put in some raises on this turn card, to represent AA and KQ looking to charge V's draws and get value from V's worse hands. Raising turn makes it likely V will check to us on the river, and we can just check-back if we're unsure what to do.
If we don't raise turn, it puts us in a really difficult spot on almost any river card. V's repped a ton of strength, and our hand is under-repped. V's going to v-bet all his sets, and might even feel safe v-betting worse two-pair. As played, I think we have to fold river when V takes this line and we don't take back the betting lead with a turn raise.
Im calling off so fast hes gunna rethink his health insurance. Btw its less that the old guys are evolving and more that the young guys are getting older. The initial poker boom is over 20 years old now.
Exactly what I was thinking.. I've been playing and my game has been evolving since I was 20 and that was in 2000..
For a lot of us older guys, the original poker boom was 1989, when a punk kid named Phil Helmuth won the WSOP main. It was a pretty big news story at the time. I was a 17 year old high-school senior, and thought if Phil could do it at age 24, maybe I could do it, too. I love it when guys in their 20's or 30's underestimate me, when I've been playing longer than some of them have been alive.
I was thinking of A/J of hearts, but you would think that would be raised pre-flop.
Thanks for the video Bart. I am 69. At what age to you tag someone as 'old' in live and and then online games'? I must have missed the chapter about it in my Poker studies.
69 is old. Sorry to break it to you. If you think the best part of poker is the free coffee you might be an OMC
"Old" is determined by how you play... not your age. Especially on line. Who knows how old you are if you're playing on line?? AND If you're sharp, and your game is solid, you should crush live. Because people have the mentality you're an OMC. UNLESS, you ARE an omc 😅😅😅.
9:30 does anyone know why Bart is eliminating the nut flush draw? Because now he has showdown value with two Aces? I would still bet $210 with my nut flush draws on the turn.
Ya I was thinking the same thing. Most players just keep betting when they pick up top pair.
Because he limped in then only called instead of 3bet pre, especially knowing it’s heads up
My local Indian casino takes the small blind before dealing preflop so players can’t chop.
hello Bart , im a member, how do I get in touch with you?
I'm going to start using "same bet" with a monster hand as a trap because all of Bart's listeners will perceive it as weakness 😂
that's funny i was thinking about that the other day lol
9:50
How does this turn card eliminate the nut flush draw?
V bet size to big on turn
nut flush draw has show down value and doesn't jam as value or bluff.
@@a_canal half pot is too big to bet turn with Axhh?
Why can’t Axhh bet half pot on the turn? Hero can easily have KK/QQ/KJ/QJ all of which will probably call a half pot bet since they now have a gutshot and are still beating hands like 98, and baby flush draws.
We're talking about the turn before knowing the river action@@damianferia6295
I do not know either (???). He DID NOT EXPLAIN how. Just fired a statement without any support for it
at stamp 9:02 he suggested going back to flop: if we assumed V had nut flush draw on flop, now V betting an "A" on turn eliminates it. Perhaps (his belief) coming from: had V had an Ah on flop, then he would not bet it on turn now having a top pair worrying about H range that involves a strong kicker to A. (??) Well, this was a useless conclusions: V hammered turn without A flush draw! He might had set of 4s? And that's even stronger reason why putting more pressure on a flushy turn.
The similar statement for eliminating V having KJ/QJ on turn with an A, now "J" is not a top pair anymore, and can easily lose to pair of AA. So: V betting turn means he cannot have a "J".
Well, this logic is as hollow as it gets Why? Because, if V does not have KJ/QJ now he might have an A, (he is not afraid of "A" turn!) which leads us back to nut flush draw.
(_maybe, that's why he did not explain, because there is no sound explanation for such statement??_ )
I may be a mega fish but if I was villain and I got to River w/ A6h I’m jamming 100%. Unblock top 2 pair on the flop and hero can have a bunch of AK. Hero should call bc he can beat some of villains value.
you should go pro.
Why can we eliminate a nut flush draw due to the turn bet?
Pre - A lot of players limp/call Ax or small pairs oop because they don't know what to do when they miss the flop.
I play at a casino in Indiana as well as charity games around here and old guys bluff at missed draws all the time in 1-2 and 1-3 games, which I nevertheless always read on poker forums that this is not that common at these levels. Do I live in a little pocket of Evolved Old Guys?
Bart, around @2:30 , you say "I can't imagine the bb limping with the btn limping..."
I know you've played more cash sessions than me in life, but also at higher stakes. I play 2-5 95% of the time, and the other 5% 5-10 or 1-2 ... What I'm getting at, is "Weird shtt" like this is soooo common. Soooo many players at 2-5 have adopted the "limp- call " strat ... It's so bizarre to me, and hard to adapt to sometimes, as I'm trying to "Play correctly" . I mean, it'll limp 5 ways and I'll raise to 60+, and all 5 will flat !!!! Sht like that, is so common, it makes my head spin ...
As a 57-year old perceived OMC, I hope no one watches this video. All these hotshot wannabe pros consistently underestimate us old guys. Not only do they think we're incapable of bluffing, but they also try to run us over with river overshoves all the time. You think they'd eventually learn.
Bart - You're costing me money 😏! Best wishes.
Always had the polar opposite view that the general low-midstakes live pool has had for the past couple yrs lol; I've found most older individuals actually overbluff & overcall overbets 😂
At Encore Boston where I play, the 60+ crows is 95% OMC's and a couple guys who are actually solid players.
I really believe Hand reading is a natural instinct you have or you don't. I think a little bit can be learned and if you have the instinct, it can be made a lot sharper with study and practice. But you either have it or you don't. The Best Hand Readers are also the best at getting Thin Value. I use it more for that than I do for Bluffing.
As someone that has evolved their play consistently I can't agree with you. It's definitely both a natural ability and a skill you can work on😊
It's a skill we can work on, but it requires us to have the ability to calm our minds enough to think logically, which not everyone can do.
@1vailchris that's a skill too. And good point. That is more what I've improved than actual hand reading
@@1vailchrisnot just calm your nerve but you have to have Very Solid reason of deduction process.
@@danielmeuler2877 that reasoning ability is something that can be developed, assuming someone isn't intellectually incapable. For most reasonably intelligent people, hand-reading is not a skill they do or do not have, but rather one that rises with experience.
Some people over-estimate their own hand-reading ability, because they've deduced someone's hand in some situations where the hand was fairly obvious. But the ability to reliably and consistently put an opponent on an extremely narrow range requires having not just natural reasoning ability, but also knowing what is or isn't a reasonable action for numerous hands on each and every street, combined with recognizing opponents' tendencies, and an understanding of card removal effects. All of that can only come with experience.
How is Bart able to eliminate the nut flush draw?
Crazy I just posted that same comment
Nut flush draw has no reason to jam once they hit a pair
Bart said it on the turn before knowing the river action@@jackflynn9898
@@jackflynn9898 No reason? What about a value bet
@@user-gm4yn1io2xwhat value would you be getting with just a pair of aces when you overbet jam this river? You think someone will call you with JQ or something? I doubt it
I paused this when he shoved the river before commentary.
#1 He limp called. No JJ, no TT, no AA. JT yes, AJ yes. SCs yes. KQ, QJ, KJ, Axhh
Flop## all the hands he could have for value are in that range. JT, 44 = ~11 combos. He can have a bunch of double draws here. QJhh, 98hh, 97hh, Maybe... AJhh, KJhh. I could make an argument for folding as his combined equity bluffs and made hands are stronger than ours. Running the equity for 44,JTs,KhJh,QhJh,Qh9h,9h8h,9h7h,JTo range we have 24%. But we are getting $100 to win $300 so 0EV. Then there is future EV if we bet fold here and the impact of other players watching us play this hand.
Turn## still possible some better value hands because he bet 1/2p. When players do this they are scared of the nuts and are trying to price what they have. Since only 44 is the set...... I might lower the combos of this as maybe they would XC to see if they can hit the river.
So now we are looking at say 44x2, KQhh, 3 combos of value.... but not KQ other. Why? KQ other would bet more to protect their hand.
So what are we beating OTT..... Maybe QJhh, 98hh, KJhh. JT, 98hh, 97hh. This half size bet is suspect.
River## when he jams of course he is polarizing. I still would stick with KQ other isn't playing the turn that way for a rec. But now I can remove his set and 2 pair combos. I just don't think they are jamming. So what does that leave.... say we give 1 combos of 44, 1 combo of KQhh...... We only need to find 1 bluff which is easy. This assume he bluffs. If he doesn't then we fold.
To me the key to the hand is his turn bet and river bet to deciphering a hand.
Another note I would say would be the timing tells. But that wasn't mentioned. I pay attention to tells way more on recs than pros.
Final note. NEEEEEEEEVER tell players you are laying a big hand down. For the love of all that is holy on the poker table don't tell others you're a good folder.
My final verdict is call. I had a hand similar to this last night in a 3 way pot against and OMC in the BB. Took me about a minute to decipher the hand as his river play surprised me. I am considering calling it in. it was the most challenging hand I have had in a long time.
Anytime the turn gives us two pair. I always wince because I swear two pair is the hand that always gets beat on this channel 😢
They're EVOLVING! AHHHHH
At Encore 1/3, 85 percent of the time, from anyone over 30, it's a fold to the check raise if you have just one pair. If I'm wrong, who cares. In this hand, I make the tight fold and never end up with the tough decision later. I'm not sure how I'm perceived at Encore at 57 years old;, but at most tables, I'm the one of the only people who three-bets and punishes limpers with large bets pre. Because I'm tight, and because almost no one bluffs, I'm able to get a fair amount of big bluffs few. The only people who bluff are young Asian guys who think they are playing at "equilibrium" by shoving almost at random. Finally, to the extent that anyone is stereotyping me as weak because I'm older, sounds good to me.
Im at the 10 minute mark, would painfully fold, don't think he has that many bluffs in relation to his value hands .
What about 44? I feel like that is often limp called
The old guys aren’t evolving - we are becoming the old guys
Word. Guys in their 30's talk about the Moneymaker boom. Here I am at 52, but I was a senior in high school when a punk kid named Phil Helmuth won the WSOP main. That was my poker boom, 35 years ago.
This is not a good bluff bro, he is literally only representing KQ. And no waaaay he is over limping with that, absolutely no way. With the players I play, they limp a lot of random suited hands and in low stakes they could be bluffing here with any heart draw or even 98o and I wouldnt be surprised.
Bro these old dudes over limp AQsuited
I'd say he's repping 44 at low stakes over KQ
News flash, old people limp AA
poor bluff. Worked b/c H relied on V body and appearance rather than on his play/action in actual hand.
Limping with KQ pre does not comply with all streets aggression afterwards. Whatsoever! So: V cannot have it both ways! Period.
Now: a set?? Nahhh! Why: A set (44) does not jam river. b/c it's a lose/lose scenario. No worse hand calls, no better hand (A high straight) folds.
nuff said.
People raise flop and go all three streets with way worse then 44 here. I wouldn't be even the tiniest but surprised by AQ, AK, JT or AT... You're not giving enough credit to the fact that people at 1/2 - 2/5 are terrible, wild, spazzy. I've seen this line with like 55 or any Axhh. I've seen 2/5 players limp call with AQ and AK more times than I can count. 2/5 players are just 1/2 players with more disposable income.
fold flop lol, old man c/r me i'm good
I'm old. May I attach a tracking device to you?
V played his hand horribly...and H played worse!
1) First wrong was a pf limp/call raise from SB.
2) Second wrong is assuming Q9hh blocking KQhh is good enough. What abbut not blocking AKhh, AJhh, KJhh!
3) Third wrong: Once 'A' landed on turn, he must've stopped fooling around OOP with his pressure. Not him!? That's out of line big time. He did not do any hand reading nor he seems knowing much about it.
4) Fourth wrong: his river bluff does not supposed to fold 2 top pairs!! If it actually happened, it still does not mean that's a sound way of play. (H is a calling station, obviously). 2 pairs of AJ is losing to a set only. And a set on river does not supposed to jam. Period. So: river jam is a clear call.
Obviously: V did jam river out of desperation. He Put himself in the corner, and now not knowing how to get out of it. So, he jammed/??? _"If it works fine if it doesn't then, what a hell. I misplayed this hand anyway!!"_ This is NOT an OMC playing style. Not even after he improved. Because, it is all wrong! his playing style is a bad LAG of the highest order. I'd say: H is OMC more than V!! .lol
Not to brag, but I called FD on this one. You lose to one heart draw only. And there's multiple heart/combo draws that continue blasting on turn
i would rather not have you phone in such an embarrassing fold Sir lol j/k
i've definitely seen more old guys getting out of line in the last 6 months even
He wasn't out of line. He flopped a 15-out OESD with a FDFD and check-raised. He's never going to be in bad shape, no matter what hand hero has, and he's going to be ahead of a lot of hero's range on this flop, when hero raised from the straddle behind two limps. He was a statistical favorite on the flop, and made a good check-raise to start a bluff, in case his draw missed. His specific hand of Qh9h blocks hero from having the best draw on the flop, KhQh. Nothing wrong with his line here, at all, considering his actual hand, this board, and the fact that his bluff is going to fold out a lot of hero's 1P and 2P holdings.
@@1vailchris seriously? Nothing wrong with V line of play??
1) First wrong was a pf limp/call raise from SB.
2) Second wrong is assuming blocking KQhh is good enough. What abbut not blocking AKhh, AJhh, KJhh!
3) Third wrong: Once A landed on turn, he must've stopped fooling around OOP with his pressure. Not him! That's out of line big timeHe did not do any hand reading nor he seems knowing much about it.
4) Fourth wrong: his river bluff does not supposed to fold 2 top pairs!! If it actually happened, it still does not mean that's a sound way of play. (H is a calling station, obviously). 2 pairs of AJ is losing to a set only. And a set on river does not supposed to jam. Period. So: river jam is a clear call.
Obviously: V did jam river out of desperation. Put himself in the corner, and now not knowing how to get out of it. So, he jammed/??? _"If it works fine if it doesn't then, what a hell. I misplayed this hand anyway!!"_ This is NOT an OMC playing style. Not even after he improved. Because, it is all wrong! his playing style is a bad LAG of the highest order. I'd say: H is OMC more than V!! .lol
Not old guys are OMC, but that doesn’t mean they are playing well either. Some of them like this guy will play draws aggressively and are oblivious to what your range or their range is, and will continue barreling into you if you just call, regardless of what the turn and river are. They just think you’re weak if you’re not reraising their bets. The double flat would’ve led me to call since they would raise a hand like KQ over a limp so the only real hands that play this way that beat me are 44.
You get the money in on the turn this guy is calling off.
This V is NOT an OMC. He's a shark.
A shark is not calling in SB with Q9o and double flatting a raise
@@guillermoalvarez9400 You should check the end result, to find out what sharks do. When somebody is counting your chips and sorting them in their stack, only because they tricked you on all streets, including huge bluff at the end - then, you'll feel sharks teeth on your neck. This shark danced all the way around its prey and forced it into submission. End of story.
@@guillermoalvarez9400 He didn't double flat, he wasn't in the SB, and it wasn't Q9o. V completed the bet in the BB, with Q9s. Hero raised in the straddle, and BB flat called a single raise, after BTN folded. Nothing at all wrong with V's pre-flop action, with his specific hand. Pretty standard stuff pre. Post-flop, he played it very well, check-raising flop as a statistical favorite to win with his 15-out draw, blocking hero from having KQhh, and continuing through by barrelling turn and jamming river. He absolutely is a shark. In fact, he's an absolute savage.
As an "old guy" myself 😢, through the flop betting I totally put V on a straight draw -- KQ, 89, Q9, and a flush or true combo draw unlikely.
The all-in overbet on the River seems to make KQ the most likely... or, now, a set (even tens). I fold River after some thought.
omg I just watched the reveal and screamed "ohhhhuuugggh!"
It's an "Indigenous" casino, Indians live in India
I'm 78 and I might call _me_ here
It’s a terrible fold! Old guy that gust limp pre, wow the level is so low
Whole thing didn't add up... The turn is where you really fucked up
i understand calling with KK or QQ. but why with a heart when youre blocking the combo draws?
yeah,...he's blocking a lot! And still call. omg
Im never folding top 2
Why is Axhh eliminated on turn !? Just cuz he bet $210. Cmon Bart
Agreed. I could see eliminating Axhh (except maybe A6 or AJ) when V jams for slightly over pot on the river. But I don’t see why Axhh couldn’t bet turn for half pot. Still plenty of hands in hero’s range that it’s beating (KK, QQ, KJ, QJ) and it’s got outs against anything.
Because they not xr many nut flush draws
So Im not the only one confused by this? I love that turn card if im holding Ax hearts
Ahxh is eliminated because it checks the river due to having showdown value, there’s no reason to turn top pair into a bluff on that board texture
AhXh would go check- raise, bet and check-call, why would you turn top pair into a bluff by jamming the river ?
How is this caller talking about omc like sir u r omc urself definitely over 50 and talking about being scared in 1/2 to a check raise
Why can’t he have AJ of hearts
Even though he lost I think the fold was correct, but that's just me.
Old people dont need to pay rent so we play different.
"old guy"? WTF dude?
i am 85 years old but i dress and look much younger ,,,i usually go to the poker room in a Supreme hoodie, BDG baggy skater fit jeans a flat brim trucker hat and a back pack with beats headphones...so it's really hard for people to know if I am an OMC or a Backpack Kid...
Your lack of neck tat gives you away.
Yeah, I bet you don’t look a day older than 75 😂
So the BTN "calls" doesn't "limp", but the BB does "call" not "over limped", make sure that you understand that the BTN "called", not "limped"....the poker terminology is ridiculous sometimes, you know what the caller means.
you should go pro. Right away!