additional answer: 100k people isn't a small city and frankly any urban area with more than 50k people should have at least one somewhat local rail system, with the precise service depending on how the area looks. Maybe tram, maybe more of a regional s-bahn with several stops in the urban area, maybe a light rail between two urban areas, maybe something strange like the schwebebahn!
And a word about the 5:43 mark: Making the infrastructure fit cars as well as tram often leads to island rather than side platforms being built. Apparently, Besançon has just one island tram platform, that being right outside a University department. Just removing cars from commercial streets in other areas allowed side platforms to be built everywhere else including those streets.
Great Video and a great system. My only problem with it, which is a problem in too many systems, is the wrap on some of the trains blocking the windows with the dreaded dots, which I hate.
I love the Besançon Trams!! Super convenient and pretty fast. The only issue was that they tend to be infrequent especially in August. And the random "travaux d'été.." Coming from Japan it took a while to get used to
so here we have a public transit, as it should be... not oversized, not over fanzy, not one system (tram/bus/subway) and neglect of the others... and they got it cheap done, but not to cheap looking... should be an example for many cities of the same size plagued with congested streets and buses...
I've just discovered your channel and I think I love it already. Adding technical details and the history of the rail systems are interesting insights to know. Also the casual tone and places visited are very relaxing and nice to follow. Thanks for brightening my day, and keep it up!
Canberra, the capital city of Australia, has also started building a light rail system, for its population of just shy of half a million. It's somewhat similar to the Besançon system except that it fell into all of the pitfalls that Besançon avoided: - Canberra uses caternary wires at the moment but it will be required to use battery power for part of the under-construction southern extension, to protect the views from Parliament House. - Canberra threw a huge amount of money at landscaping and building very fancy shelters at every stop, and while it's pretty, it's also extremely over the top. - Canberra uses CAF Urbos vehicles, but the cost savings of ordering from CAF are substantially less in Australia because of freight shipping costs (we are, after all, halfway around the world from Spain). Australia builds plenty of trams in Melbourne, because Melbourne has the biggest tram network in the world, and I have no idea why every other state keeps buying European-built trams for their new networks instead of just asking for some extra trams from Melbourne. - Canberra light rail has been hugely successful along its existing corridor, but the costs were astronomical, so construction halted almost completely after that corridor was complete. The former "Stage 2" southern extension has been cut into "Stage 2A" and "Stage 2B", and even the tiny Stage 2A build (only ~2km and 3 stations!) is proving to be a huge inconvenience because of heritage restrictions and several road interchanges that need to be completely rebuilt to accommodate trams. - Stage 2B is also going to be a nightmare because they will need to knock down and rebuild one of the busiest bridges in the city (the bridge is already in need of replacement, but the extra weight of trams would completely destroy it). I have no idea why they didn't start building a completely different tram line instead, like the "Stage 3" far southern line or "Stage 4" east-west line, just to keep the construction workers in jobs. Well, it's probably because they blew the city budget and the Federal Government doesn't care enough about public transport to throw them a lifeline.
That's not really surprising for Europe in general and France in particular. Rennes, a city proper of 225k inhabitants and metro area of 470k, has a metro network with 2 fully automated lines, which daily carries more than the city proper's population. It's extremely useful and efficient. There are cities with less than 50k inhabitants (proper), like Aubagne and Valenciennes, that have tram lines. There's also Toulouse, about 500k proper, 900k agglomeration, which currently has a 2-line automated metro network and is building a larger 3rd automated line plus an extension to an existing line. They also have trams, BRT's, and even a recently opened 3S gondola transit line connected to the metro. While Bordeaux, about 270k proper, 850k agglomeration, has a tram network with 4 lines and is studying the development of a metro to cope with trams' overcrowding. (That's the city with the APS tramway sections in the video). Strasbourg, nearly 300k proper, and 520k inhabitants for the agglomeration extending into Germany, has an important 6-line tram network and is preparing to build yet another line. Montpellier, 300k proper, 500k agglomeration, has a 60km 4-line tram network, plus extensions and a 5th tram line in preparation. They've recently abolished fares for locals who now just have to request a free travel card. There are 30 cities that have tramway networks in France and 6 with metro networks. In the next 10 years, there'll be about 250 kilometers of new metro lines in France, all automated.
Liberec, a small Czech city with a population of 100k, has 4 tram lines, one of which even connects it to a nearby city of Jablonec nad Nisou. Its sad that one small line with a small trunk on one side is considered "wild".
Can, but many of them don't. Even in France, there are about 42 cities in France with more than 100'000 inhabitants. Only half of them have light rail systems, and a good bunch of them only have a few kilometers of lines. And outside of France or Europe, it's very common that cities around 100'000 thousand inhabitants don't have any kind of railway transit at all. It's great that there are many cities in europe with a nice light rail transit, especially in Central Europe, but we shouldn't be so arrogant to take that for granted...
The thing about French tram construction, unlike the English speaking world, is that once you complete a project, the workers and expertise can easily move to another one. Here in Australia they're treated as standalone projects, tendered out to construction companies, who tender astronomical prices that still go over budget!
Also French construction companies use the french projects to gain experience and export their methods for exemple Colas create some big project in France now they work in Belgium and UK and create a new line in 2 or 3 years ( except Liege but it's complicated) so you always have one or two project in progress and you don't lost your terrain experience
less 4 lvl sub contractors less money in consulting specification come from inhabitants and local politician not from consulting and strategy office in Paris construction company have also a very good technical view they don't say yes to all request, their public image is in the balance so they give good advise and preconisation before the definitive plan
im impressed, lovely presintation and you earned a subscriber, keep it up, the system looks lovely and it reminds me that a system can be dont cheap yet effective, i hope this becomes a model
great video, this is what we need in auckland to be honest between parts of the city that are not operated by the suburban rail system and the city, and for a massive part of the city only operated by BRT
I just knew there was going to be another Aucklander in here lol, I absolutely gawked at the price per km in this video, if it cost us that much I'm sure there would be at least a bit more support for them.
similar how lol? Barcelona uses 5 car alstom units (now retrofitted with APS for a new cable less section), and has 6 lines, in a muuuuuuuuuuch bigger city, plus the trains look nothing alike
For UK watchers at 3:57 Edinburgh slots in around 54 mill per km. If you want to see truly silly though look at the Wolverhampton extension- 50 million to get... 700m, on the surface, in an area not that densely built up.
meanwhile in Sydney, our govenment spent 2.5 billion dollars, thats almost 2b euros, for a light rail line that is estimated to carry less than half the number over a quarter the distance
During University term or otherwise? The latest data I saw showed the L3 and L3 were up to expected levels. 😢 They now need to duplicate what they were 50 years ago.
Not just this town.. but Gmunden in Austria with only 14000 makes use of their LRT tram system. Trams are very good at replacing busses... and in winter when temps go below 0C busses are really good at pulling asphalt dust up in the air that stays there while trams don't. So, in Europe. Trams are actually much better than buses. For people who cant walk and parents with strollers. Trams stop at the same distance from the platform always. The busses don't. Many bus drivers don't care.
I LOVE systems like that, interurban trams/light rail are such an under-appreciated form of railway service and i really think it should be the standard thing built basically everywhere. We don't have to strictly choose between trains or trams, we can just have a hybrid and run it as is convenient for the section of track it's on, and thanks to that flexibility it becomes possible to justify building railways in sooooooooooo many places where you'd otherwise have too few people. I really do not understand why the world isn't undergoing a light rail explosion, it's so highly compatible with modern sensibilities that it even works great in the USA! We should be taking all the old abandoned train routes and turning them into light rail lines, add stops wherever it makes sense and run whatever size of vehicle is needed for the passenger volumes.
Another thing one can do is piggybacking of a neighboring city, that is what is done today in the tramways surrounding Berlin. they usually buy together with Berlin their Trams, which reduces the cost by a lot. Also some cities (like Berlin) didn't destroy their right of ways many center running separated tramways can be used again, all that would have to be done is clearing the middle from some trees, car parking and a few turning lanes, all which reduces cost because you don't need to completely redesign the street.
This is really what i think should be the standard, any time you have more than like 50k people living in a rough line with less than 20km end-to-end we should be strongly considering building light rail along that corridor. I like the Frauenfeld-Wil light railway as a prime example: two cities of ~25k people each with some villages between them, a light rail line is such a perfect way to provide great public transport service that makes basically *everyone* happy, including the people who have to approve the budget. It doesn't even need to be a massive project, that line is largely single track and basically always crosses roads at-grade, yet it works fine.
Petite correction : le système n'est pas 100% ségrégué. Des sections, notamment sur le quai Veil-Picard et l'avenue Font Argent sont sur des voies partagées avec les voitures pour preserver l'accès pour les résidents. Cependant, cela a été planifié pour ne permettre que la circulation locale et ne ralentit pas le tram. C'est de la meilleure planification que de faire 100% ségrégué, parce que ça réduit encore plus les coûts!
Most trams don't use 'catenary' overhead equipment - that's for mainline rail or some light rail systems. At Besancon, it's plain old 'overhead line equipment' (OLE).
You're absolutely right - I wrongly translated "Fahrleitung" (Overhead line) with catenary, albeit the overhead line equipment isn't actually suspended by a catenary. Learned something new, thanks!
Hmmm or the confusion comes from French, where "caténaire" is used as a general term to describe all overhead line equipment and not just OLE with catenary... anyway now I know that in English catenary is only used when the cable is held by a catenary shaped porter cable.
Interesting video and I am pleased to see that Besançon's trams have been restored and look good. Being cheap to construct is an important part of getting a new system up and running. BTW the word "gauge" is pronounced /gāj/ with a long a and no r sound You pronounced it closer to /gôrj/ which sounds like the English word "gorge" (which the English "stole" from French as you use the same word!) I think "au" in french has a more "o" sound English spelling and pronunciation is less reliable than French so you might need to learn that one.
@@felixonrails You should hear me speaking French - you can hear the British vowels - it is tragic! To be honest most of your pronunciation is great but "gauge" stood out and I realized that in French "au" has more "o" sound in it. English being inconsistent "gauge" has an /ā/ sound. "gauze" has a diphthong based on /o/ so it is closer to French. Interestingly the Americans have an alternative spelling of "gage" so it you think of that spelling that might help.
Running trams every 40mins is one of the best ways to discourage ridership. Turns it from a viable option to something you only do as a last resort. Should never be longer than a 20min frequency other than say the extremely early and late services. "Oh let's go out on Sunday." "No worries, I'll get my car keys." "What about that new tram?" "Yeah nah it 9nky runs every 40mins, I'm not sitting for that long waiting for it, twice (to and fro), I can drive and arrive before the next one has even departed!"
From what I can see in the tram schedule, the 40 mins between tram arrival is actually in the worst case scenario. They run 15-20 mins apart during normal hours on weekends, and 40mins in obscure times when no one is really riding the tram (and there is no point in going every 5 minutes to pick three passengers and drive them for 2 stops). In case you come from a heavily populated area with a large and diverse transport system, seeing this may seem like a discouragement to using a public transport. But do bare in mind this is a small city, and people don't go en masse to the town center on weekends. So the habits are a bit different and then you plan your journey accordingly, not by bluntly showing up at the station and expecting the tram to be there as soon as you arrive, but to adjust to the schedule, and come when the tram is expected to arrive. 🙂
i think it varies between big city hurry and smaller city, even rural relaxed attitudes. I don't rush as much in retirement as I did 20 years ago when I worked full time in a busy job, in a big city. 😅
We are talking about one 23 meter long vehicle every 5 minutes. In Tallinn - the capital of Estonia they said "no money for mistakes" and ordered 24 meter long trolleybuses and it is cheaper literally at every stage, 17 million per kilometer is ridiculously expensive for a road and 2 million dollars is ridiculously expensive for a bus, even a very long one with a trolleypole, so no it is not "cost efficient"
Tallinn has a 5 times larger population than the whole metropolitan area of Besançon. Either it's providing service to a more remote zone of the city, or it's not comparable at all.
Restricted tenders, or invited tenders, are only open to a group of pre-approved of suppliers: for example chosen for the purpose of local sourcing, image etc. But they are often part of a two-stage process. First, an expression of interest issued to identify suitable vendors, which can be public, and this results in a shortlist. In french public transportation, it's common to only invite the “usual suspects” of companies who can source locally, but I'm not really an expert on that subject.
Every interesting video between different of tramway or streercar with mix traffic and light rail transit (LRT) tram segregated lane vehicles may not used. just like Quality Bus Corridor as bus lane or busway or side lane of priority signal and sign may used on off-peak hour vehicle may used lane. Bus Rapid Transit is segregated lane use the middle on road and New electric bus or Trolleybus both (QBC)systems. or (BRT)systems.
I wish it would be politically acceptable to build mpre trams instead of cramming as many people into double-articulated busses first. it would literally influence the development of the city positively.
Nice video! The choice of CAF rolling stock was really controversial given that Alstom is a regional power employer and motors would have been produced locally even, but yeah it made sense in a lowcost context I guess....
@@hypernewlapse Not as big as Alstom (even though trams are made in La Rochelle, for the rest CAF is Spanish and their trams were made in Bagnères-de-Bigorre (Pyrenees) and it was one of their first order on the French market, hence the controversy also. There was also a small fight with Dijon who launched their tram construction just after Besançon and have chosen Alstom for their rolling stock in opposition to Besançon, the mayor even saying that they wanted to support local industry (they have a bogie factory in Le Creusot and the rest of Alstom components were mostly French when CAF was assembling Spanish components).... If you're curious, search in old french press articles online, even if a bunch of them got lost since then.
I left this city a while ago, due to climatic incompatibility (too much rain, too much bronchitis...) I didn't find a very efficient public transportation service at that time, because the city doesn't have any major avenues or boulevards and a place like Place Leclerc is often a huge mess. The tram is very slow, but it's the same in Lyon. It is clearly undersized. I doubt he brought much to this city, except for its former mayor... and his whims.😁
Quite frankly I don't understand light rail! Why? Small capacity, large investment (rails, pavement, vehicles), interference with road traffic creating jams, very small speed. In large cities like Paris, it is just a disaster (blocking intersections to raod traffic). All this for what? Using electricity? For small cities, busses (electric ones) offer a much better alternative with much bigger flexibility. Agreed buses offer reduced capacity but there are many articulated buses to reach a better capacity.
Sure, if you don't ask “how much electricity” does a bus use, then of course the bus will always be better off. As soon as you realize that energy supply is also limited, thus costly, and light rail runs with steel wheels on steel rails, the story is far different. The advantages of light rail, besides other effects, are especially a reduction of energy required per people moved.
The telling thing here is that you worry about blocking traffic, as if cars are the most important thing. This is what causes the problem with your reasoning: cars are terrible and light rail exists precisely to get fewer people to use cars, which creates less traffic for everyone and is more economically sustainable and less harmful to the environment around them.
I'm just wondering how many taxpayers live in Besançon? If we estimate that ruffly 10% of the 100000 pay a substancial amount of taxes, it will be 25000 euro per taxpayer. And I assume that those who pay don’t have much benefit from this tram anyway. Thankfully they didn’t plan it across the old town
Cities do not fund systems by themselves, they have help from the government, the région, the département and the agglomération (which is generaly the one that takes care of its public transit), most of the Time the city pays about a third of all costs. They also can take 0% interest loans for 30-40 years, which is what I expect would have happened too
Yes, that the funding of public transportation by the government isn't focussed on the benefit of top taxpayers surely comes to the surprise of everyone… not.
I can almost feel the disdain that you have for "those using public transportation". And the numbers gymnastic that you hallucinated is also quite telling.
You pay for schools even if you don't have kids. You pay for public health care even if you don't get sick. You pay for public transit even if you never ride it. Just as those who don't have a car pay for road repairs.
There are 200 000 inhabitants in the Greater Besançon. At 228 million euros, we're at 1000e/inhabitants, for a system that will likely last a century. Additionaly, transit in France is locally paid not by the local taxpayers, but by the local companies, who tend to massively profit from them. Finally, a tramway is an extremely valuable tool to make land and properties cost 10, 20, 30% more along the line. That's how the city indirectly benefits from it, and we're speaking about *very* high numbers for the cities. And for the local taxpayers making the gain. Properties age extremely bad in the US. That's not the case in France, and it does explain a lot why french people have more money than americans.
In dense cities, the speed of trams is enough. Cars in city centers often can't drive more than 30 km/h and have to stop frequently for red lights and in traffic jams. trams in well built networks don't get stuck in traffic and can easily pass cars and trucks. There are trams that are prepared for at least partial autonomy. In fact vehicles on rails can be more easily made autonomous than buses, for example, as they don't need any steering; just acceleration and braking. And beauty is in the eyes of the beholder after all. I like the look of some modern trams. They can mix well in with old architecture, just as easily as cars. I love how the red trams in Bern look like crossing the old Kirchenfeld- or Kornhaus bridge de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenfeldbr%C3%BCcke#/media/Datei:Combino_Kirchenfeldbr%C3%BCcke.jpg. In fact I find cars parked in inner cities much more of an eyesore.
Well their tram system ins at limit and needs to be extended meaning the vehicles. But it appears that they have technical flaws. Cracks in joints and can not be extended and the city is in problems. Platforms should also be extended whereas they could have beuilt them from scratch long enough. (Not well thought).
Major benefit of tram system is to eztend the existing vehicles whilst keeping the same amount of drivers. Now we see tgat Besancon opted for wrong cheap vehicle so actually it is a bad case what they did and there is nothing to praise there.
The wrong cheap vehicles is only partly correct. They have been very conservative with the estimated required capacity at peak hours. Keep in mind that it's a new built system with entirely new rolling stock. Most light rail systems in towns this size that I know of are much older and still have lots of old rolling stock with high variable costs but almost no fixed costs that they can use to absorb more demand during peak hours. For the Besançon tramway this is a dilemma, like most new only LRT. Shall they acquire expensive new rolling stock to provide the required capacity only during 4 hours a day, letting brand-new trams rot the rest of the day: or run them empty the rest of the day? I think this could have been wasteful too.
@@felixonrails The problem is not being able to extend the existing fleet. THat is core problem. You would not have to buy new vehicles but instead extend some of the existing ones.
@@felixonrails I think they did well starting with smaller vehicles. After 30 years in use, they will need to be replaced anyway, and if ridership develops positively, they can be replaced with bigger models.
Short answer: yes. Long answer: absolutely yes. This little tram system looks amazing!
additional answer: 100k people isn't a small city and frankly any urban area with more than 50k people should have at least one somewhat local rail system, with the precise service depending on how the area looks.
Maybe tram, maybe more of a regional s-bahn with several stops in the urban area, maybe a light rail between two urban areas, maybe something strange like the schwebebahn!
Love it. The catenary polls actually look quite nice with their design.
Beautiful town
The city where Victor Hugo was born.
The trams of Besançon look like they've always been there. That's how well they were designed to fit the city!
And a word about the 5:43 mark:
Making the infrastructure fit cars as well as tram often leads to island rather than side platforms being built. Apparently, Besançon has just one island tram platform, that being right outside a University department. Just removing cars from commercial streets in other areas allowed side platforms to be built everywhere else including those streets.
Great Video and a great system.
My only problem with it, which is a problem in too many systems, is the wrap on some of the trains blocking the windows with the dreaded dots, which I hate.
I absolutely agree-thankfully, only a handful of the trams have the decoration on the windows.
We need much more of this in England, Cambridge was supposed to be doing something like this but they want to commit to some weird busway thing
I really enjoyed this video and subscribed! Thanks for sharing this!
Thank you for watching and subscribing!
I love the Besançon Trams!! Super convenient and pretty fast. The only issue was that they tend to be infrequent especially in August. And the random "travaux d'été.." Coming from Japan it took a while to get used to
so here we have a public transit, as it should be... not oversized, not over fanzy, not one system (tram/bus/subway) and neglect of the others... and they got it cheap done, but not to cheap looking... should be an example for many cities of the same size plagued with congested streets and buses...
Re 7:20 In fact, the interior floors of these trams are completely flat, the floor is not sloped, as is the case with the Citadis Dualis.
I've just discovered your channel and I think I love it already. Adding technical details and the history of the rail systems are interesting insights to know. Also the casual tone and places visited are very relaxing and nice to follow. Thanks for brightening my day, and keep it up!
Thank you for your nice comment! That's really encouraging - hopefully there is much more similar content to come soon 😊
Canberra, the capital city of Australia, has also started building a light rail system, for its population of just shy of half a million. It's somewhat similar to the Besançon system except that it fell into all of the pitfalls that Besançon avoided:
- Canberra uses caternary wires at the moment but it will be required to use battery power for part of the under-construction southern extension, to protect the views from Parliament House.
- Canberra threw a huge amount of money at landscaping and building very fancy shelters at every stop, and while it's pretty, it's also extremely over the top.
- Canberra uses CAF Urbos vehicles, but the cost savings of ordering from CAF are substantially less in Australia because of freight shipping costs (we are, after all, halfway around the world from Spain). Australia builds plenty of trams in Melbourne, because Melbourne has the biggest tram network in the world, and I have no idea why every other state keeps buying European-built trams for their new networks instead of just asking for some extra trams from Melbourne.
- Canberra light rail has been hugely successful along its existing corridor, but the costs were astronomical, so construction halted almost completely after that corridor was complete. The former "Stage 2" southern extension has been cut into "Stage 2A" and "Stage 2B", and even the tiny Stage 2A build (only ~2km and 3 stations!) is proving to be a huge inconvenience because of heritage restrictions and several road interchanges that need to be completely rebuilt to accommodate trams.
- Stage 2B is also going to be a nightmare because they will need to knock down and rebuild one of the busiest bridges in the city (the bridge is already in need of replacement, but the extra weight of trams would completely destroy it). I have no idea why they didn't start building a completely different tram line instead, like the "Stage 3" far southern line or "Stage 4" east-west line, just to keep the construction workers in jobs. Well, it's probably because they blew the city budget and the Federal Government doesn't care enough about public transport to throw them a lifeline.
Blame the Coalition?
Oof. Sounds like a lot of avoidable mess.
Great video! Really well-made and detailed. Interesting to learn that the bus-only network was 60k pax per day, while now it's 95k.
Interesting video and great to hear the word 'gadgetbahn' in use!
it's difficult to get around gadgetsbahns in France, so the word should better be ready to be used 🙃
2 light rail lines in a city of 100k population is wild.
I mean, to be fair, it's rather one line with a trunk to the railway station. But yes, I agree, it's a very long line for a town this size.
That's not really surprising for Europe in general and France in particular.
Rennes, a city proper of 225k inhabitants and metro area of 470k, has a metro network with 2 fully automated lines, which daily carries more than the city proper's population.
It's extremely useful and efficient.
There are cities with less than 50k inhabitants (proper), like Aubagne and Valenciennes, that have tram lines.
There's also Toulouse, about 500k proper, 900k agglomeration, which currently has a 2-line automated metro network and is building a larger 3rd automated line plus an extension to an existing line. They also have trams, BRT's, and even a recently opened 3S gondola transit line connected to the metro.
While Bordeaux, about 270k proper, 850k agglomeration, has a tram network with 4 lines and is studying the development of a metro to cope with trams' overcrowding. (That's the city with the APS tramway sections in the video).
Strasbourg, nearly 300k proper, and 520k inhabitants for the agglomeration extending into Germany, has an important 6-line tram network and is preparing to build yet another line.
Montpellier, 300k proper, 500k agglomeration, has a 60km 4-line tram network, plus extensions and a 5th tram line in preparation. They've recently abolished fares for locals who now just have to request a free travel card.
There are 30 cities that have tramway networks in France and 6 with metro networks.
In the next 10 years, there'll be about 250 kilometers of new metro lines in France, all automated.
Liberec, a small Czech city with a population of 100k, has 4 tram lines, one of which even connects it to a nearby city of Jablonec nad Nisou. Its sad that one small line with a small trunk on one side is considered "wild".
It‘s absolutely not. Cities even smaller can have bigger tram networks
Can, but many of them don't. Even in France, there are about 42 cities in France with more than 100'000 inhabitants. Only half of them have light rail systems, and a good bunch of them only have a few kilometers of lines. And outside of France or Europe, it's very common that cities around 100'000 thousand inhabitants don't have any kind of railway transit at all. It's great that there are many cities in europe with a nice light rail transit, especially in Central Europe, but we shouldn't be so arrogant to take that for granted...
The thing about French tram construction, unlike the English speaking world, is that once you complete a project, the workers and expertise can easily move to another one. Here in Australia they're treated as standalone projects, tendered out to construction companies, who tender astronomical prices that still go over budget!
Also French construction companies use the french projects to gain experience and export their methods for exemple Colas create some big project in France now they work in Belgium and UK and create a new line in 2 or 3 years ( except Liege but it's complicated) so you always have one or two project in progress and you don't lost your terrain experience
Totally agree. Concept meets with my total approval
French TECH et c'est beau c'est la cerise sur le cake! merci.
Lovely city worth of a visit. Good food too.
Nice video as always Felix!
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed!
It's so inexpensive to build light rail in France. In the US a similar system would have been over a billion dollars.
…and the UK. It’s an Anglo world issue.😢
less 4 lvl sub contractors
less money in consulting
specification come from inhabitants and local politician not from consulting and strategy office in Paris
construction company have also a very good technical view they don't say yes to all request, their public image is in the balance so they give good advise and preconisation before the definitive plan
2:37 / 5:55 beautiful shot ❤❤
Thank you! I took them from the fortress
Germany, France,South Korea,China and Japan have very much network of metros, tramways and commuterlines zipping in/out of their cities... Luv it❤❤❤
im impressed, lovely presintation and you earned a subscriber, keep it up, the system looks lovely and it reminds me that a system can be dont cheap yet effective, i hope this becomes a model
Thank you very much - yes despite it's shortcomings it's really a lighthouse no bs system for efficient investment in public transportation
Great video!
Thank you!
Great video as always.
Dankeeeee 😊
great video, this is what we need in auckland to be honest between parts of the city that are not operated by the suburban rail system and the city, and for a massive part of the city only operated by BRT
I just knew there was going to be another Aucklander in here lol, I absolutely gawked at the price per km in this video, if it cost us that much I'm sure there would be at least a bit more support for them.
@@CeladonHairExtraordinaire Im not an Aucklander , but I live near taupo, but Im into public transit stuff :)
Merci Félix!
Merci d'avoir regardé 😊
So handsome! Also, the trams... 😉
Very similar to TRAM in Barcelona, Spain. Good solution for the City Transport.
similar how lol? Barcelona uses 5 car alstom units (now retrofitted with APS for a new cable less section), and has 6 lines, in a muuuuuuuuuuch bigger city, plus the trains look nothing alike
Beautiful, efficient and cost effective. What do you wants more? Well done!
moar trams
What matters most is if the population is happy with the system.
If the city users approved it, then it's OK.
For UK watchers at 3:57 Edinburgh slots in around 54 mill per km. If you want to see truly silly though look at the Wolverhampton extension- 50 million to get... 700m, on the surface, in an area not that densely built up.
Awesome video thanks 🙏
Très intéressant. Mais que vont devenir les rames CAF actuelles ?
Elles vont continuer de circuler. Les rames citadis augmenteront la capacité surtout en heures de pointes, mais les rames CAF continueront de circuler
Great video. Merci.
meanwhile in Sydney, our govenment spent 2.5 billion dollars, thats almost 2b euros, for a light rail line that is estimated to carry less than half the number over a quarter the distance
During University term or otherwise? The latest data I saw showed the L3 and L3 were up to expected levels. 😢 They now need to duplicate what they were 50 years ago.
Not just this town.. but Gmunden in Austria with only 14000 makes use of their LRT tram system. Trams are very good at replacing busses... and in winter when temps go below 0C busses are really good at pulling asphalt dust up in the air that stays there while trams don't. So, in Europe. Trams are actually much better than buses. For people who cant walk and parents with strollers. Trams stop at the same distance from the platform always. The busses don't. Many bus drivers don't care.
I LOVE systems like that, interurban trams/light rail are such an under-appreciated form of railway service and i really think it should be the standard thing built basically everywhere.
We don't have to strictly choose between trains or trams, we can just have a hybrid and run it as is convenient for the section of track it's on, and thanks to that flexibility it becomes possible to justify building railways in sooooooooooo many places where you'd otherwise have too few people.
I really do not understand why the world isn't undergoing a light rail explosion, it's so highly compatible with modern sensibilities that it even works great in the USA!
We should be taking all the old abandoned train routes and turning them into light rail lines, add stops wherever it makes sense and run whatever size of vehicle is needed for the passenger volumes.
Another thing one can do is piggybacking of a neighboring city, that is what is done today in the tramways surrounding Berlin. they usually buy together with Berlin their Trams, which reduces the cost by a lot. Also some cities (like Berlin) didn't destroy their right of ways many center running separated tramways can be used again, all that would have to be done is clearing the middle from some trees, car parking and a few turning lanes, all which reduces cost because you don't need to completely redesign the street.
This is really what i think should be the standard, any time you have more than like 50k people living in a rough line with less than 20km end-to-end we should be strongly considering building light rail along that corridor.
I like the Frauenfeld-Wil light railway as a prime example: two cities of ~25k people each with some villages between them, a light rail line is such a perfect way to provide great public transport service that makes basically *everyone* happy, including the people who have to approve the budget.
It doesn't even need to be a massive project, that line is largely single track and basically always crosses roads at-grade, yet it works fine.
Petite correction : le système n'est pas 100% ségrégué. Des sections, notamment sur le quai Veil-Picard et l'avenue Font Argent sont sur des voies partagées avec les voitures pour preserver l'accès pour les résidents. Cependant, cela a été planifié pour ne permettre que la circulation locale et ne ralentit pas le tram. C'est de la meilleure planification que de faire 100% ségrégué, parce que ça réduit encore plus les coûts!
Nicee video
Thanks!
Most trams don't use 'catenary' overhead equipment - that's for mainline rail or some light rail systems. At Besancon, it's plain old 'overhead line equipment' (OLE).
You're absolutely right - I wrongly translated "Fahrleitung" (Overhead line) with catenary, albeit the overhead line equipment isn't actually suspended by a catenary. Learned something new, thanks!
Hmmm or the confusion comes from French, where "caténaire" is used as a general term to describe all overhead line equipment and not just OLE with catenary... anyway now I know that in English catenary is only used when the cable is held by a catenary shaped porter cable.
Interesting video
and I am pleased to see that Besançon's trams
have been restored and look good.
Being cheap to construct is an important part
of getting a new system up and running.
BTW the word "gauge" is pronounced /gāj/
with a long a and no r sound
You pronounced it closer to /gôrj/
which sounds like the English word "gorge"
(which the English "stole" from French as you use the same word!)
I think "au" in french has a more "o" sound
English spelling and pronunciation is less reliable than French
so you might need to learn that one.
Indeed, already last video, someone told me about this mispronunciation… it's very difficult to get rid of it.
@@felixonrails
You should hear me speaking French - you can hear the British vowels - it is tragic!
To be honest most of your pronunciation is great but "gauge" stood out and I realized that in French "au" has more "o" sound in it.
English being inconsistent
"gauge" has an /ā/ sound.
"gauze" has a diphthong based on /o/ so it is closer to French.
Interestingly the Americans have an alternative spelling of "gage" so it you think of that spelling that might help.
Toronto, are you watching?
Running trams every 40mins is one of the best ways to discourage ridership. Turns it from a viable option to something you only do as a last resort. Should never be longer than a 20min frequency other than say the extremely early and late services. "Oh let's go out on Sunday." "No worries, I'll get my car keys." "What about that new tram?" "Yeah nah it 9nky runs every 40mins, I'm not sitting for that long waiting for it, twice (to and fro), I can drive and arrive before the next one has even departed!"
I absolutely agree with this one
From what I can see in the tram schedule, the 40 mins between tram arrival is actually in the worst case scenario. They run 15-20 mins apart during normal hours on weekends, and 40mins in obscure times when no one is really riding the tram (and there is no point in going every 5 minutes to pick three passengers and drive them for 2 stops).
In case you come from a heavily populated area with a large and diverse transport system, seeing this may seem like a discouragement to using a public transport. But do bare in mind this is a small city, and people don't go en masse to the town center on weekends. So the habits are a bit different and then you plan your journey accordingly, not by bluntly showing up at the station and expecting the tram to be there as soon as you arrive, but to adjust to the schedule, and come when the tram is expected to arrive. 🙂
i think it varies between big city hurry and smaller city, even rural relaxed attitudes. I don't rush as much in retirement as I did 20 years ago when I worked full time in a busy job, in a big city. 😅
We are talking about one 23 meter long vehicle every 5 minutes. In Tallinn - the capital of Estonia they said "no money for mistakes" and ordered 24 meter long trolleybuses and it is cheaper literally at every stage, 17 million per kilometer is ridiculously expensive for a road and 2 million dollars is ridiculously expensive for a bus, even a very long one with a trolleypole, so no it is not "cost efficient"
Tallinn has a 5 times larger population than the whole metropolitan area of Besançon. Either it's providing service to a more remote zone of the city, or it's not comparable at all.
gauge rhymes with sage and wage; /geɪʤ/
What do you mean they "invited" 9 companies instead of 4? Was it not just a public tender that anyone meeting the requirements could enter?
Restricted tenders, or invited tenders, are only open to a group of pre-approved of suppliers: for example chosen for the purpose of local sourcing, image etc. But they are often part of a two-stage process. First, an expression of interest issued to identify suitable vendors, which can be public, and this results in a shortlist. In french public transportation, it's common to only invite the “usual suspects” of companies who can source locally, but I'm not really an expert on that subject.
Every interesting video between different of tramway or streercar with mix traffic and light rail transit (LRT) tram segregated lane vehicles may not used. just like Quality Bus Corridor as bus lane or busway or side lane of priority signal and sign may used on off-peak hour vehicle may used lane. Bus Rapid Transit is segregated lane use the middle on road and New electric bus or Trolleybus both (QBC)systems. or (BRT)systems.
4:42 *Bordeaux
Damn I didn’t catch that typo 😤
@@felixonrails It's OK, your video is excellent otherwise!
I wish it would be politically acceptable to build mpre trams instead of cramming as many people into double-articulated busses first. it would literally influence the development of the city positively.
I agree: less diesel fumes, less tire and road wear…
ChaLEzeule not Chazeule. I know we eat this part of the name :)
Oups, oui, il faut avouer que la visite était un peu trop courte pour apprécier toutes les nuances de Besançon
Nice video! The choice of CAF rolling stock was really controversial given that Alstom is a regional power employer and motors would have been produced locally even, but yeah it made sense in a lowcost context I guess....
? CAF is also an employer in the region and the trains were build in France
@@hypernewlapse Not as big as Alstom (even though trams are made in La Rochelle, for the rest CAF is Spanish and their trams were made in Bagnères-de-Bigorre (Pyrenees) and it was one of their first order on the French market, hence the controversy also.
There was also a small fight with Dijon who launched their tram construction just after Besançon and have chosen Alstom for their rolling stock in opposition to Besançon, the mayor even saying that they wanted to support local industry (they have a bogie factory in Le Creusot and the rest of Alstom components were mostly French when CAF was assembling Spanish components)....
If you're curious, search in old french press articles online, even if a bunch of them got lost since then.
I left this city a while ago, due to climatic incompatibility (too much rain, too much bronchitis...)
I didn't find a very efficient public transportation service at that time, because the city doesn't have any major avenues or boulevards and a place like Place Leclerc is often a huge mess. The tram is very slow, but it's the same in Lyon. It is clearly undersized. I doubt he brought much to this city, except for its former mayor... and his whims.😁
Fake London could never do this 💀
That accent lol
where do you guess I am from? 😇
Multiple bus unit 😂
yeah, yeah … multiple unit bus, bendy bus or articulated bus or whatever. 😅
I think they are an eye sore and should copy the last century models
Quite frankly I don't understand light rail! Why? Small capacity, large investment (rails, pavement, vehicles), interference with road traffic creating jams, very small speed. In large cities like Paris, it is just a disaster (blocking intersections to raod traffic). All this for what? Using electricity?
For small cities, busses (electric ones) offer a much better alternative with much bigger flexibility. Agreed buses offer reduced capacity but there are many articulated buses to reach a better capacity.
Sure, if you don't ask “how much electricity” does a bus use, then of course the bus will always be better off. As soon as you realize that energy supply is also limited, thus costly, and light rail runs with steel wheels on steel rails, the story is far different. The advantages of light rail, besides other effects, are especially a reduction of energy required per people moved.
The telling thing here is that you worry about blocking traffic, as if cars are the most important thing.
This is what causes the problem with your reasoning: cars are terrible and light rail exists precisely to get fewer people to use cars, which creates less traffic for everyone and is more economically sustainable and less harmful to the environment around them.
I'm just wondering how many taxpayers live in Besançon? If we estimate that ruffly 10% of the 100000 pay a substancial amount of taxes, it will be 25000 euro per taxpayer. And I assume that those who pay don’t have much benefit from this tram anyway. Thankfully they didn’t plan it across the old town
Cities do not fund systems by themselves, they have help from the government, the région, the département and the agglomération (which is generaly the one that takes care of its public transit), most of the Time the city pays about a third of all costs. They also can take 0% interest loans for 30-40 years, which is what I expect would have happened too
Yes, that the funding of public transportation by the government isn't focussed on the benefit of top taxpayers surely comes to the surprise of everyone… not.
I can almost feel the disdain that you have for "those using public transportation". And the numbers gymnastic that you hallucinated is also quite telling.
You pay for schools even if you don't have kids. You pay for public health care even if you don't get sick. You pay for public transit even if you never ride it. Just as those who don't have a car pay for road repairs.
There are 200 000 inhabitants in the Greater Besançon. At 228 million euros, we're at 1000e/inhabitants, for a system that will likely last a century.
Additionaly, transit in France is locally paid not by the local taxpayers, but by the local companies, who tend to massively profit from them.
Finally, a tramway is an extremely valuable tool to make land and properties cost 10, 20, 30% more along the line. That's how the city indirectly benefits from it, and we're speaking about *very* high numbers for the cities. And for the local taxpayers making the gain.
Properties age extremely bad in the US. That's not the case in France, and it does explain a lot why french people have more money than americans.
There is 3 main problem with trams :
They are slow
They are not autonomous (not futurproof)
They are ugly (look how old trams were more beautiful)
In dense cities, the speed of trams is enough. Cars in city centers often can't drive more than 30 km/h and have to stop frequently for red lights and in traffic jams. trams in well built networks don't get stuck in traffic and can easily pass cars and trucks.
There are trams that are prepared for at least partial autonomy. In fact vehicles on rails can be more easily made autonomous than buses, for example, as they don't need any steering; just acceleration and braking. And beauty is in the eyes of the beholder after all. I like the look of some modern trams. They can mix well in with old architecture, just as easily as cars. I love how the red trams in Bern look like crossing the old Kirchenfeld- or Kornhaus bridge de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenfeldbr%C3%BCcke#/media/Datei:Combino_Kirchenfeldbr%C3%BCcke.jpg. In fact I find cars parked in inner cities much more of an eyesore.
Well their tram system ins at limit and needs to be extended meaning the vehicles. But it appears that they have technical flaws. Cracks in joints and can not be extended and the city is in problems. Platforms should also be extended whereas they could have beuilt them from scratch long enough. (Not well thought).
Major benefit of tram system is to eztend the existing vehicles whilst keeping the same amount of drivers. Now we see tgat Besancon opted for wrong cheap vehicle so actually it is a bad case what they did and there is nothing to praise there.
The wrong cheap vehicles is only partly correct. They have been very conservative with the estimated required capacity at peak hours. Keep in mind that it's a new built system with entirely new rolling stock. Most light rail systems in towns this size that I know of are much older and still have lots of old rolling stock with high variable costs but almost no fixed costs that they can use to absorb more demand during peak hours. For the Besançon tramway this is a dilemma, like most new only LRT. Shall they acquire expensive new rolling stock to provide the required capacity only during 4 hours a day, letting brand-new trams rot the rest of the day: or run them empty the rest of the day? I think this could have been wasteful too.
@@felixonrails The problem is not being able to extend the existing fleet. THat is core problem. You would not have to buy new vehicles but instead extend some of the existing ones.
@@felixonrails I think they did well starting with smaller vehicles. After 30 years in use, they will need to be replaced anyway, and if ridership develops positively, they can be replaced with bigger models.