Solving EV's Biggest Problem - Battery Recycling Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- Solving EV's Biggest Problem - Battery Recycling Explained. Between our obsession with mobile electronics and the growing popularity of electric vehicles, lithium ion battery demand is growing at an astonishing rate. Most of that demand is being driven by automotive sales which consume 60% of lithium ion batteries. It’s not hard to imagine how far that’s going to go in time, which raises the big question ... what happens to all of those batteries when they die?
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So what do you think? Will recycling overtake the need for mining? And if you liked this video, check out "This 3D Printed House Changes Everything - Explained": th-cam.com/video/gxbyWly_pls/w-d-xo.html
If I might make a suggestion, I think you should do some research on aluminum ion batteries.
In every process there is always a small amount of loss of material that can not be recovered. Cell phones thrown in the trash instead of recycled or wrecked cars that sit in a junk yard instead of being recycled. So in short you will always need new supply of materials. The question is not will it over take it, but how much can we reduce it. Maybe someday we can mine landfills for raw materials.
aluminium ion batteries it seems ok no recycling required. But what we can use graded transport for less than a km by walk, less than 2-3km by cycle, 5-10 kms by 2 wheelers preferably ev/aluminium ion battery. 4 wheelers for long distance provided with minimum of 3-4 people or public transport. air travel only for 1000km beyond. avoid travelling as much possible. these steps only can save environment.
Looking at plastic recycling...no.
Might want to include along with this topic the topic of how incredibly long properly maintained Li-ion batteries can last especially with a the right BMS algorithm. The combination makes it easier to understand why there is little reason to worry about a future transition to electric vehicles. Excellent vidio by the way.
This is such a good channel. I don't remember how I stumbled across it, but the level of research and concise informative format are beyond impressive. Not having enough time to look into these many complex issues myself, I'm so grateful that Matt has decided to research in my stead (and much more thoroughly).
So happy you're finding them helpful. Thanks for watching!
The level of research presented has caused me to earmark this channel as a "go to" for my Honors English classes. This is everything a teacher looks for in a presentation from thorough research to concise language in presentation. Thank you!
"I don't remember how I stumbled across it"
The algorithms are with us 🙏 give yourself to the algorithms and they will embrace us
@@UndecidedMF yes thank you it's easy to forget how much work goes in
@@gingernutpreacher its funny i have no idea how i stumbled into this channel but i love it too! Very well researched and presented
Battery recycling will be absolutely essential because the materials are so scarce. I like how EV demand has increased battery recycling demand, which in turn will benefit all industries that use batteries. I'd love to see a world where everything can be 100 % recycled to pure raw materials cheaply and safely!
hate to break it to ya but it will never be 100% right now its about 80% its mostly the chemicals that break down. i used to manufacture batteries. this applies to all recycling each time u lose a smal percentage of what it used to be.
@@skullfucker3381 The atoms and molecules will still be there, even though all of the materials won't be in their original form due to chemical reactions. I think it's just a matter of finding the technology and having an abundance of cheap energy to make it happen.
@@eaaeeeea if we r real here that would be a great difficult leap changing the manufacturing process entirely, currently you do have better alternatives that are on the bench like: Sodium-ion, lithium-sulfur and solid-state batteries just to keep up with demands, tho we do have great potential the stuff in it is poisonous for environments to give you an example, every day my work day ended we had to put our clothes in sealed black bags, mandatory showers on site and monthly leave urine tests I think it was high cancer risk amongst other things. There is a reason why they are trying to push for a fully automated industry.
@@eaaeeeea as you say, an abundance of cheap energy is exactly what’s needed. With that, carbon capture and all sorts of other strange technologies will become viable.
What is done with the solvent waste?
I just bought my first EV last night, partially because of the influence of your videos! A used 2012 Nissan Leaf. Very happy to be doing my part and saving money!
Did you buy the battery or do you rent it? How much did you pay and how efficent is the battery still?
@@KeVIn-pm7pu I own it, I bought the whole car from some dude. It will go forty miles on a full charge, at the specs at manufacture are for 100, I believe.
Nice! Congrats on the Leaf.
@@thelonelyrogue3727 40 seems almost useless
@@skylarkesselring6075 depends on you usage. 80% of my trips are
How did you not mention the primary US recycling company, ABML (American Battery Technology Company)? Redwood uses smelting, which creates toxic emissions into the air, while ABML uses a water-based recycling method that's 100% sustainable. And it's a company led by ex-Tesla engineers.
And it's right next door to Giga Nevada. And will to 20K tonnes a year with their pilot plant. And they have IP for greener lithium extraction during mining. The more I look at the last battery day presentation, the more I think ABML is the answer to the "first principles" problem of lithium supply.
We need a NileRed video on reproducing the cycle. I mean, he alredy extracted Zync and Manganese...
First thing I thought of when I saw all the chemistry stuff
Oh heck yeah. A collab some some sort like that here would be sweet.
Great video Matt! Thank you for letting me be a part of it.
Keep up the good work Zarko! You should hop on that podcast with Larry sometime! People like hearing from you.
Zarko, what the company is doing is a vital key to this battery world and chaine.
Good work and outstanding name.
The most awaited video from one of the best channels
Appreciate it!
Your lucky dude
VW solved this issue in Germany. They already built a complete end-to-end recycling plant that extracts out all the precious metals and re-uses them in new batteries. It’s pretty amazing.
That's so cool! what's the name of the plant so I can read more about it?
any article links??
th-cam.com/video/Qi8Y2lF7Luw/w-d-xo.html
Actually it's not at all what you're suggesting. The VW plant in Salzgitter is an experimental laboratory with an expected recycling capacity of ten (TEN!) car battery sets per day and still not working. It's just another marketing argument as all the other examples mentioned here. Still waiting for something serious ...
Here's the link to the official VW site: www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/de/storys/aus-alt-mach-neu-batterierecycling-in-salzgitter-6782
And here the announcement in English: www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/02/lithium-to-lithium-manganese-to-manganese.html
"The separation and processing of the individual substances by hydrometallurgical processes using water and chemical agents are carried out by specialized partners, Volkswagen says." The real life recycling will go like this: they will collect the batteries, will put them in ships and will send them to the "partners" in africa, india, china and so on where kids and people in labor camps will smash them with axes, will burn the plastic and recover the copper. It's basically the same process involved in the recycling of the lead acid batteries which are sent in africa and india where eagerly awaiting people with hammers smash them, melt he lead and burn the plastic. They don't even need respirators because the fumes and lead oxide dust are like vitamins for them. The Li-Ion batteries will only improve their blood levels of cobalt and manganese which is very useful. Cobalt defficiency leads to anemia so these people will be healthier after inhaling the dust from the black mass from batteries.
Good evening Matt. An excellent video -- again :-)
Having spent 40+ years in the domain of Automotive Electronics, I can say 'Batteries are not enough.'
If you want more range, you add more batteries -- which adds more weight -- which reduces the range etc.
Recycling old or mining new raw materials is not the debate (in the limit.)
We need a zero emission lightweight power source for at least the Transport sector.
We know what that is, we know how to use it, it's just not reached the 'tipping point' yet.
Its called Hydrogen!
Let the recycling debate rage until it becomes obsolete.
Best wishes. Stay safe. Bruce
One of the absolute BEST channels, great work. On this video I was surprised you didn't talk about battery longevity and reuse, a key to understanding battery life cycles. Most people think an EV battery will be dead in 5-10 years of use, not understanding how long they can be useful in a car and then repurposed for mass storage, before recycling.
I think we will always need mining but at lower and lower levels as recycling ramps up. As has been the case over the past 150 years humans have consumed more and more materials and I don't see that changing which means that even if we recycle 100% we still need new material. It's also, in my opinion, impossible to recycle 100%.
Space mining always a solution
@@James-sk4db Just need to couple that with space waste disposal
@@graham1034 not really a problem unless you bring the waste to earth/earths orbit.
No it's not "just Ur opinion" it's reality every time recycling process is done a percentage of those materials are gone.
The success of lead recycling is a good example of how changes can satisfy needs
It just makes sense to recycle and recover as much as possible. Minimizing waste and the potential ground contamination, while simultaneously minimizing the ecological impact of mining is definitely a win/win.
I'm glad I found this channel. I just mashed that subscribe button. Now, I'm going to spend the rest of my day going through past videos, lol.
Often one of my bug concerns but glad to see it's being worked on. Will this work for solar panels as well?
Not these specific companies, but yes ... there are companies trying to perfect solar panel recycling cheaply too.
Sure!
you can reclaim all metals from anything, with varying degrees of success.
Solar panel recycling is behind the battery recycling curve in terms of commercialization inspite of being an earlier tech. The reason being, Solar panels have much longer standard life of 25-30 years compared to EV batteries 8-10 years. Of course, in real life solar panels can stay functional up to 50 years and EV batteries up to 20 years.
@@KarryKarryKarry The question isn't can you recycle solar panels, the question is can you do it efficiently and at a point where the material yield can pay for the process. Only then will it be worth the time and effort to divert landfill goods to recyclers.
@@KarryKarryKarry of course you CAN, almost everything we manufacture is recyclable. The question is, is it economical, and is it less damaging than disposing of the waste.
That was a nice inside look to the recycling factory. Thanks for letting us know the ongoing research on an upcoming field!
You bet!
EV’s biggest problem = strip mining the planet looking for rare earth minerals (using petroleum based earth moving equipment) in the name of protecting the environment...
The biggest problem are morons who think everything is a problem. Even if everyone walked you types would be blathering on how sidewalks, old shoes, and sweatiness are destroying the environment.
Offer solutions instead of just making more CO2 with your nonsense.
@@GeoFry3 oh you naive... at the time we would ship new cars, and scrap them after small accidents, we would ship "old" ones to poor countries. In meantime China and India would motorize even more. In this year only they INCREASED CO2 by 5%.
Also ships don't burn small amountsof clean fuel. They burn the heaviest stuff :)
@@wiciuwiciu2783 yes because people in the third world should live in mud huts and not modernize and be even more destructive to their environment. Good attitude. Even old cars being shipped are better than what they had access to previously. Those dirty ships were already here dropping things off better that they run back full than empty.
Why no mention of American Battery Technology Company? Same team that built Tesla’s gigafactory with a much more sustainable hydrometallurgical approach that has near-zero emissions.
I have Li-Ion and NI-Mh ( from 10 years and still can be used for small tasks ) I haven't dispose any
NiMH rocks. Once in a blue moon a AA gets rejected by the intelligent charger but that is after hundreds of recharges so it goes into the recycle bin.
Please contact
E-mail arkrashid20@gmail.com
@@mohdrashid7689 why ?
As the global demand for Lithium ion batteries increase is impossible to use recycling to fullfil the demand.
But when the demand stagnates, then recycling will be able to cover most of the supply.
Wow, this is a great vid, thanks Matt! the future looks bright for battery recycling companies like American Manganese!
Whoah. Mind blown in the first minute of the video. 1% of automotive sales being 60% of the consumption of lithium battery production? Holy. Moly.
Rough calculation says that lithium battery production will have to be 100 times what it is at the moment in order to satisfy a fully electric automotive supply chain. That's a lot.
Please talk about ABML, they have the largest market cap out of all these companies, and in my opinion the most revolutionary technology.
CTO was the head of R&D at Tesla.
I am really glad to see so many people working on sustainability, with concern for pollution along the way. Hearing that they will reuse all of their chemicals though, makes me suspicious. No process is 100%. what will they end up having to throw away, in what quantities when scaled up.. how does that compare to the pollution from mining? those are the kinds of things I'm curious about.
Great video Matt, I'm always impressed with the amount of research you do, and how you tie everything together so effectively. Have you heard much about recycling efforts overseas, with China being such a large and rapidly growing EV market? It will be interesting to see if some of the large battery factories planned will have integrated recycling facilities, that would be an efficient way to handle production, and another way for Tesla and others to vertically integrate.
Then you should check China EV waste then. For the country who made up their GDP year by year (and my other lies), I would need an independent checker if they say they would recycle their waste properly. Where they produced countless EVs just for "green numbers" then just dump them.
I really hope that at least some of those battery recycling companies will survive and will become profitable, because in my opinion it is very important to have a robust recycling infrastructure put in place.
I hope so too ... and I'm pretty sure a bunch will survive and be very profitable.
Matt, great video. This should be required showing in class rooms. Good job with finding Zarko. I have been a licensed engineer for over 40 years and I have no doubt Zarko knows his stuff. Amazing that American Manganese is able to achieve 100% recovery. You can go on forever.
Who TF downvotes this guy? He has well thought out, fun and easy to understand content without much more than a hint of any political or forceful messaging. He gives what it is, what it could be and the real world drawbacks and potentials for a subject and does it all without rambling on endlessly on side tangents. Seriously who downvotes this? On the actual subject, I don't think we can do 0 mining, but to help ease the need for tons of strip-mines all over the place, or incentivizing child labor in China and third-world nations, would be ideal. Great place for a chemical engineer to get a business idea if anything.
Rochester! That city (like so many) could sure use some help. I can only imagine how many empty Eastman-Kodak buildings there are.
Yes, went there 18 months ago and it was rather sad. I think it is the sort of city where no one really lives "in the city" but all in the suburbs. At night the centre was a very empty depressing place but nevertheless had some amazing buildings
Nice try harder
And that is why they located there- lower rent for the facility they needed and a ready, high tech work force. This is not the only such opportunity in the US just now. Boeing has signed in the new lessee for one of their big assembly bldgs in Seattle. Many empty malls are parking and sorting places for Amazon's fleets of delivery trucks. And within the next ten years, self driving cars are likely to become normal if not the norm- 80 K OTR truck drivers will be without a job. This has been the ever accelerating story of the Industrial Revolution. FR
@@justinstephenson9360 Yes, the core of the city is very quiet at night. Its nor really a city as much as it is a suburb. But most American cities are like that now.
Not as many as you think really. Most of the ones designed for a specific purpose have been knocked down. The infrastructure is still there though. In house utilities, sewer, rail line waste treatment plant etc. Its all there, someone just needs a reason to build on it.
I have a 10 year old Nissan Leaf. Since I only do short trips, it is all I need (and it was cheap with all the subsidies back in 2011). I have never fast charged it or left it sitting at 100% charge for more than a few hours. It has been garaged and as a result my range loss has been about 20% and the battery still can fully charge to all bars. Batteries will last if you take care of them.
You have to do both since there's not nearly enough recyclable batteries yet to meet the need of the electric car market.
yes, but someday there will be enough recyclable Batteries. And this is a good future... in my eyes..
And neither will there be enough oil to last another 50 years, so take your pick........
Have to use this for a school Assignment. Great information, easy to understand, would highly recommend this video to anyone wanting to look into battery recycling.
You didn't answer my question of how do we get our old Lipo batteries to these people? It would be best to have the recycling company provide safe shipping boxes for us to collect old rechargeable batteries and send them to the recyclers facility.
It's a good question, but out of scope for the focus of this video (I was focused on EVs). For all of us (the end users), getting batteries recycled is still WAY to hard. Hopefully with these companies spinning up, we'll see options open up.
In my country all consumer electronics shops accept waste electronics and batteries, most shopping centers have boxes for disposing small electronics/light bulbs/batteries. Bigger cities have collection sites for larger electronics/appliances. Even my apartment building at the entrance has small metal box for battery disposal. Basically recycling companies has partnership with other businesses to use shops as a collection spots.
@@edmundas919 the US has a long ways to go in implementing the recycling process. Our disposal companies refer us to the e-waste recyclers. There are some electronics stores and others who accept some of the waste.
I recently bought a used Nissan Leaf and it is awesome! EVs are fun to drive and very cheap to operate. I have no doubt consumers are about to flock to EVs in a big way. I also think more and more people are going to want "house batteries" (especially Texas and California), which will further drive demand for these batteries. The countries, regions, and companies that can best provide battery production and recycling will benefit the most economically from this revolution.
So excited to watch! Been waiting on this one! Keep it up, Matt!
Thanks! Will do!
Recycling needs to outpace mining to approach a closed system and be sustainable. But increased demand will make a true closed system challenging. Would love to see you do a video about CO2 footprint of making and owning an EV vs an ICE.
Love the interview driven content.
This is where I think using non lithium-ion battery strategies for grid scale storage come into play, to reduce the demand for LI in areas where the advantages don't come into play as much.
Matt, could you do a video on what has the best environmental impact per dollar. Like, should you spend 60k on a car or 400 bucks on a battery lawn mower?
I imagine it would be very complicated but boy would it be useful.
That is an interesting idea!
I would love to hear from you about how municipalities can help reduce electric private car demand by investing on more sustainable public transport. Like you said, recycling won't get us there, and the exponential demand for lithium ought to cause conflicts just like oil has.
I've said for years, whoever starts recycling these batteries is going to make a lot of money.
You should've started it
Or alternatively the person who figures out a more eco friendly battery (Solid State Batteries) which have already been theorized, and are trying to be made by many companies like Samsung and the actual person who came up with the idea, who also happened to invent lithium ion batteries, and RAM
Not if the recycling process consumes more energy than what is being recycled was intended to save. This is the case with solar panels, as melting down the leaded glass and separating the water polluting heavy metals costs more than the out put of the panels.
Same
@@Altcapball Are you saying that, if you would produce and power solar panels from recycled solar panels, then this would use more energy than the entire lifetime output of the solar panels and, thus, would be a net negative in energy production?
If this is not what you mean, can you rephrase it?
Great video. As a trade association representing the auto recycling industry we have been paying very close attention to this. We have already produced extensive training material for safely and properly dismantling EV's, as well as handling the high voltage lithium Ion batteries. Many of our members have these batteries but have no buyers.
What are your thoughts on companies that are mining polymetallic nodules from the ocean floor? Potato-sized nuggets containing metals in concentrations much higher than what is found in terrestrial mining ore.
What do you do with good, practically new batteries that can't be used anymore because the tools they power no longer work? I'd hate to recycle perfectly good batteries.
Could sell it to someone who has a working tool.
A question you could have covered... How much lithium do we actually have? And can we safely and effectively meet market demand? Recycling is still 10-20 years away from significantly reducing the amount of newly mined materials required. Given the exploding demand for lithium batteries, will there be enough? And what kind of environmental impact would mining on a massive scale have? Additionally, the heavy equipment required to mine will still need diesel power for the foreseeable future. Tractors are just too heavy and power hungry to be electrically powered as of now. The power requirements would smoke the batteries and they would need constant recharging or even hard wire grid connections. I am but a simple mechanic who thinks about energy constantly. I'm enjoying your channel!
Need to include along with this topic the topic of how incredibly long properly maintained Li-ion batteries can last especially with a the right BMS algorithm.
Yes, but how to properly maintain them? Why phone battery dies in a few years?
@@TheKitMurkit the smaller the battery, the quicker it degrades. A phone with a 2600maH battery will have less battery health ghan a phone with 4500maH
Recycling may not replace mining, but it will certainly be an important component of providing lithium for batteries in the future.
Thanks for the video dude.
You bet
It’s a great topic not only for evs but also consumer products which have seen a rise in lithium batteries. Thankfully there are recycling centers in place and hopefully awareness and convenience to recycle these batteries will continue to grow with the demand.
Recycling can't replace mining for Lithium. The math doesn't work:
A recycled battery, at best will return 80% of the original Lithium used to make the battery.
So we need to mine another 20% to make a new battery.
If we make a battery from the recycled material, we use 20% more of that material to make a new battery
If we recycle that battery, our returns diminish.
If we can't develop a technology to recycle 100% of the Lithium from a battery, then we need to continue mining this finite resource.
Perhaps this is a portent to our future. One with no base power source besides a campfire.
Well Isn’t that why Elon is trying to commercialize space?
Yeah, and even if we would recycle 100%, the increase in demand will make mining not disappear soon
Yeah,
1) That's the former Tesla guy's process, that may not be indicative of other companies processes. May be sign of dumping of toxic waste, but I digress.
2)there ~180 Billion Tonnes of Lithium in the Oceans of the world. We are not going to run out of it soon.
So there is camp fire base power source in our future. Now if you want to argue that if we have a future because of human nature...
There is nothing that can be recycled without external inputs. I'm not a physicist but I think that there was someone called Newton who figured this out.
Solar panels can't make solar panels, batteries can't make batteries and wind mills can't make windmills without external energy inputs.
Even in EV production ( I own an E bike), a large amount of petrol and diesel is produced as a bi product in the manufacturing process as a result of plastic and rubber production. It is not only somewhat ironic, it's also a lot of "wasted" energy.
The question that humanity needs answered at present is what is the best use of these inputs.
Commercial interests, proprietary technology and blind faith have clouded the answer to this question. Most frightening to me is that blind faith has been the biggest incumbency.
Our future may just be a campfire. The only energy needed to recycle its components are unprocessed sunlight and water and they don't need manipulation by man.
Man, of course, thinks he can do it better but really...can he? He hasn't yet and if Newton's got it right, he never will. Don't tell anyone though, it's a secret.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 This sounds like the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which was after Newton. This is half right, but the sun IS that additional energy input you are talking about. All energy, apart from geothermal, comes from the sun. Even fossil fuels gained their chemical energy from ancient biomass grown from the sun's energy. Both trees and solar panels concentrate the sun's energy. Trees use the energy to grow wood, and solar panels' energy can be used to 'grow' more solar panels and provide surplus energy. There is no "external energy", besides the sun's, required. Camp fires get their energy from the sun too, and they emit a lot of pollution, and are very inefficient, compared to other forms of renewable energy.
The reason you hear this myth is probably due to the historical inefficiency of solar panels, the current dominance of fossil fuels, and that fossil fuels are often cheaper, not to mention propaganda from panicking fossil fuel lobbyists. The cheapest is not always the best, however, and it won't be the cheapest for long. You are looking for life cycle analysis to investigate this concept. There is lots of recent research in this field. From a technical point of view, you don't have to be pessimistic.
I think the big reason recycling isn’t growing to match the foreseen demand is that these estimates cannot take into account the potential for breakthroughs in battery or capacitor technology in the future. I can’t see investing big money into lithium and cobalt recovery if there’s the potential of a company announcing tomorrow that they’ve developed a revolutionary new product that doesn’t use any of those materials.
500kg a day? So a single car's battery? Lol we're going to have to scale a lot faster than that.
500kg of battery scrap is muc more than one car battery. This is without the frame and casing. Only the active components. Also once you got the process dialed in, you can easyly scale if up by increasing batch size or setting up parallel plants
@@fabianfeilcke7220 They did not specify whether its output of pure active materials or input of total scrap. Regardless even if primarily valuable material is used as measured output 3 batteries per day is still pretty rough from a plant investment cost and throughput standpoint. If car manufactures stick to current production schedules there's a lot of scaling to be done. Or maybe they have inflated definition of pilot plant haha. Hopefully they mean "small lab" lol.
@@jonsullivan2342 "pilot" literally means "demonstration". So yes, all of this has to be scaled heavily but for a pilot is really good
@@airpeguiV2 Yes I know what pilot means... Lol. The plant they showed initially was pretty large. As an engineer that both designs electric vehicles and also works in real estate I'm just saying they have their work cut out for them (understatement of the year lol). Idk if most people can really comprehend the scale at which we pump these vehicles out and the investment costs required to build factories. I routinely walk by lines that pump out a vehicle nearly every minute. If production scales as expected plus past waste we've got a long way to come.
@@jonsullivan2342 How many EVs do you reckon get scrapped per day? How many do you reckon have salvageable batteries, that can go on to a second life as a stationary battery or, say, a newer Nissan Leaf battery that can go into an older Leaf (a 'donor' battery, if you will, check out Cleevely EV here in the UK). How many battery packs do you reckon *actually* get dismantled, scrapped and recycled? Some, definitely, but the main demand is going to be in the future, as more EVs get to the end of their life and as more stationary batteries get to the end of their life.
Also: I do agree with airpeguiV2, it's a bit rich to be criticising a demonstrator plant for being too small to cope with mass battery recycling. The technology is still in its adolescence, and these plants are a vital stepping-stone to get us to the large-scale facilities we're going to be needing in a few years. Ramping up a new technology is absurdly difficult (ref: I work on silicon carbide power electronics, alongside Clas-SiC Wafer Fab, MaxPower Semiconductor, McLaren, Microchip and others) and these demonstrator plants are still impressive.
I really appreciate your realistic approach to green technologies on this channel. Your videos are super well informed and often look beyond the hype of a lot of green products and examine not only the benefits but the drawbacks and challenges a lot of these industries face. Thank for helping us become better informed "green" consumers.
Really appreciate that. So glad you're finding the videos helpful.
@@UndecidedMF Did you mention that the batteries EASILY explode.
The real question is: the impact of strip mining versus oil extraction.
If cyclical recycling is perfected minerals once mined can be used continuously for 100 of years, even without recycling average batteries last 20 yrs verses oil which can never be recovered once burnt and new batch needs to be extracted every time. No brainer really which to choose.
May be we should go back to the steam engine
I've been a mild "car-guy" most of my life having owned 60s small blocks, 70s big blocks, diesels ect, ect. The dawn of the EV revolution is just as exciting. Got to hand it to the auto world. We've been recyclers long before recycling was main stream. The scrap yard...I mean auto dismantling industry...will find a way to make money on the world's worn out cars.
Thanks Matt!! I just purchased a New 2021 KIA NIRO EV and people keep telling me, that my Battery is going to hurt the Environment, because "they can't be Recycled"...Learning from you, their statement is not true. By the time I need a "New Battery" for my Car, Recycling should be further advanced by that time. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us!! I did hit "Like" and "Subscribe", because you did earn it today!!!
Thanks!! GOD Bless!!
They stick them in a landfill because they are not made in such a way that they can be easily recycled. Also... when exposed to the atmosphere, the guts of these batteries can explode or catch fire.
No, you're thinking of lithium polymer batteries. Electric cars are powered by lithium ion batteries. Different chemistry... And they can be recycled fairly easily. VW are recycling them already. It seems you haven't done enough research.....
I believe the process is not totally recycled to make batteries but recycled to certain degree that the metals are able to added to alloys to be used in building and manufacturing which will absorb the wasted battery at early stage until we find the best structures or processes. Compromise first then perfection
Sadly, I ditched my lithium ion tool and returned to a gas-powered version. The battery lifespan isn't just there yet. They are too expensive to replace.
Your best bet with electric tools is LiFePO batteries. They recharge better. Also, quality is super important.
lol, what tool? nothing could possibly replace my arsenal of battery tools. just buy the batteries off brand, they are a 1/4
of the price
@@ronaldtice9224 The tool is irrelevant, as my comment was about the power source.
Amazing work done by this channel , really appreciate👍
funny, but I've been trying to figure out what to do with around 30 18650 lion cells. They are the "bad" cells from taking apart laptop batteries. I finally found battery plus blubs would accept them. what happens to them from there, I have no idea.
certainly a landfill
@@HeritageWealthPlanning Not in the UK or Europe. Placing battery waste in landfill is illegal in both the UK and EU......they get recycled.
@@Brian-om2hh uh huh
20 to 30 years ago, industrial ecology and cradle to cradle materials management were two of the frameworks that considered the idea of industrial nutrients that would be recycled again and again. Electric car manufacturing is finally embracing these concepts. The designs and processes are all optimized for closed or partially closed cycles of materials, energy efficiency, elimination of pollutants... etc. We have the opportunity to do it right from the get-go this time. Waste and pollution are no longer created through poor or incomplete design and then dumped in the environment as externalities.
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Thanks for the clarity! Great video 🎉
Did you guys completely miss ABML? How?
Have They actually produced anything yet? Do they have patents?
As Elon once said, the problem is not breakthroughs in a lab somewhere! Those are like a dime a dozen every year. The problem is scaling up to mass production, and that's extremely hard.
How much energy does it take to recover the various components? What by-products are there from the recycling process? The chemicals used must come from somewhere, mined, processed etc.. what cost to they environment does this have?
Sure recycling, repurposing and re-using is great, and much more preferable to the current "throw away" society, but recycling isn't totally innocent in terms of "carbon footprint".
Until we have clean power production on a global basis, even if to charge the EV's and gadgets in the first place, and then to power this recycling process, we will continue to kill the planet.
The key in my mind is to stop consuming in an ever increasing rate scale. The idea of endless growth in this finite world is ludicrous. And yes, I know that means we need a drastic re-think in "economics" and a drastic reversal of population growth.
If There is a recycling system in place, Used Li-ion batteries will have a base Worth, which most likely is lower than what is currently asked at the scrappers now, so IT Will be cheaper too for sensible recycling individuals wanting to keep their aging EV on the Road.
The ultimate conclusion of environmentalism is suicide.
@@rogerstarkey5390 Not to argue, but are you sure the 5kWh Per barrel is electricity? I Think IT refeers to the extra heat input required to distill one barrel of crudeoil, as most of the energy is recouped in the refraction pile and Used to preheat incoming oil?
@@rogerstarkey5390 I never advocated this, in fact I state that recycling/re-using/re-purposing is the way to go, and certainly do not advocate the continued use of hydrocarbons as fuel. What I do say is that there is more than just one facet to the issue.
If the cost to the environment of recycling (and then recharging all batteries) involves using electricity produced by "dirty" power generation (in Australia, electricity production is far and away the biggest producer of greenhouse gasses) we need to look deeper. No where does this video show the cost to the environment of the process of recycling, so a proper comparison can be made
Using hydrocarbons as a fuel is just one reason it's mined All plastics, paints, lubricants use it.
We are the problem, our consumption is the problem. We need to consume less, regardless of whether it is newly produced, or recycled.
@@Tore_Lund Cheaper in money sure... but is the entire process, including power generation to recharge these batteries better for the environment?
And so we make it more economically viable to switch to EV's, so that means more need to be built and the cost to the environment of building a new car of any sort is huge, we just perpetuate the problem, requiring more minerals to be mined and processed just to build the vehicles. Can everyone afford to replace their vehicles? I'm on a forced early retirement and live on a disability pension, there's no way I can afford even a second hand EV, especially when the batteries will need to be replaced, recycled or not.
Sure we can recycle some materials from the now obsolete ICE vehicles, but that costs energy and power. Aluminium (Aluminum) is very resource intensive to recycle,
Recycling current waste cells will not cover all the new cells needed for new EV's , phones etc.
We (humans) are so selfish we only think something is of value in dollar terms.
Demand is too high, so of course mining has to continue apace. Let's hope we can find a battery chemistry that involves more abundant materials.
so every 5 to 10 years when my battery crashes ill hope the battery and the car would be recycled . or i can just use my gas car for 20 years and know for a fact it is recyclable
Love it. Thanks for the insight. I am still having trouble justifying a 40K EV when I am getting 38mpg average on a 28K gasoline engine auto. And also do not have any of the hassle of getting the charging logistics in place in the home and having to monitor where a charge is available when out on the road. Maybe someday I'll get there. But this is definitely looking good for the future.
Setting up the charging infrastructure for my Tesla (at home and at my cottage) took about 2 hours in each location. Now it's been 2 1/2 years since I've had to visit a gas station or change the oil. What a huge relief not to have deal with gas stations! My 500km range is way more than I need to get to my cottage (250 kms from my home). Waking up to a full charge every day is no different than how I deal with my cell phone, except of course there's no need to plug my car in every night. Tesla Superchargers are plentiful; it's a total non-issue.
I'm in the camp of if you have a good, working vehicle keep using it for as long as it makes sense for you. Using an existing car (gas or EV) is better for the environment vs. building a new car (gas or EV). But in the long run the transition to EV seems inevitable at this point. It makes too much sense and there's so much progress happening in manufacturing, charging infrastructure, etc.
Battery recycling sound like an excellent business opportunity except you didn't cover the cost model of new versus recycled. Most important yet, even if you can produce the battery capacities cited, how in the world are you going to charge them and keep them charge. It all goes back to the energy storage ( battery) and energy generation (grid) and please.....do not day renewables because so far they have proven to be unreliable and not cost effective. Where is the cost model to this?
Simple. No recycle is not going to replace mining 100% versus 80%. It just will meet demand. Like the company and business model.
The biggest problem is where the electricity comes from, and the immense electricity-grid upgrades that's needed to support 100M electric cars over the handful we currently have.
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So here's what I need education on: what is it about the recycling process that takes the same material but renders it capable of holding a charge again? Is there something in the re-refining or recapture process that sort of resets the energy potential of the materials? Or am I missing a larger structural concept?
for the majority of rechargeable battery technology, the energy potential of the materials themselves doesnt change, the amount of space they have to their work does, on charging, and discharging, slowly dendrites form, dendrites basically being 'spikes' of material that slowly work their way from one 'side' towards the other 'side' of the battery, lowering the 'space' the battery has to do work. (this is heavily simplified, please do a search on why batteries decay this channel has one iirc)
if history is a teacher then we will drop em in the ocean..
thank you for your work on debunking myths about emobility and stuff surrounding that! always a pleasure to listen and watch :)
Do not forget the second life use for old ev batteries which are still in working condition, they still retain 70% efficiency after 10 yrs of use and can be used for stationary uses for 10-15 yrs more.
great point. reduce, reuse, recycle - in that order.
Great video - Governments should have tied electric car incentives to effective battery recycling / reuse. I'm interested in a video on third party battery replacement efforts for older electric cars. Their are a number of electric cars on the road with exhausted or nearly exhausted battery capacity and the number will increase YoY. The electric car manufacturers naturally want to sell more cars and keeping older models on the road would be counter to that strategy. The cost of replacement battery packs is a very real issue.
What recycling process has ever eliminated the original source?
It's good to see the efforts and advances are being made.
One of the biggest problems though is that recycling is still viewed as a business: not an environmental necessity...
Recycling is done by businesses because they want to make money. It's a simple fact. Without profit the business can't succeed.
So there's a delicate balance in this situation... Mining the raw materials is a huge, growing industry, and the more that is mined, the cheaper the price becomes (it is a simple supply and demand issue).
So the recycler has to be able to recycle the batteries and provide the raw materials at a cheaper price than the mined materials AND still make a profit.
AND the scale of the recycling operation has to be similar or greater than the mining operation. (preferably greater, as it would prevent the environmental and ecological damage caused by the actual mining itself).
And of course, it would be beneficial if the recycling process had a significantly smaller impact on the environment...
We can only hope that they succeed in the recycling endeavour.
I wonder if we can get lithium to where lead is right now with respect to recycled vs mined input.
Love you to bits Matt! thank you for caring enough to make us care enough :)
Much appreciated. A big thanks for watching and supporting the channel.
The amount of lithium required to put towns, cities and nations onto renewable energy would be huge, those charts scare me a little bit. Are they from the expected yearly consumed or are they a total used till that point. I personally hope for the large scale batteries the market goes in the direction of other battery types. Where materials used are more common or using other forms of energy storage. Ideally lithium based batteries should be kept for portable systems, due to their comparative weight to energy density. But i guess the market will go where it goes unless taxed otherwise.
Seems like it would be a better idea to put that work in to redesigning and standardizing batteries to be easy to disassemble into their component parts.
Very informative video.Thanks for the highlighting the critical issues of recycling of battery units.Recycling maybe a good solution but not 100% effective.How much effective is lithium recycling at current rates.Both Chinese and Indian government are considering giving green subsidies on purchase of private EV vehicles and as such Lithium is a costly resource of much use in public transport and renewable energy grid.
One thing you didn't mention which I think is huge, is the removed battery packs from retired or totaled accident cars is being use for home solar systems. Thanks for what you do, love the channel.
I have purchased many kWh of old ev batteries. Second life storage is a great way to recycle before the raw materials are recycled.
Great video. I was born in Rochester and grew up mostly in Victor
That cathode scrappage rate was seriously eye-opening! Presumably, the very-large scale production that's on the horizon is going to bring that scrappage rate down, but that recycling process from AM looks like it'll make a huge difference as production scales up, and as new chemistries like LFP, solid state and Tesla's promised high-Ni chemistry get ramped up to very-large scale production. There are bound to be some teething problems.
What do I think about battery recycling? I think it's pretty much bang on schedule. It's still at the scale of small demonstrator plants, but the amount of battery waste is still small. Most EV batteries are still on the road, most domestic batteries are still in homes - they're lasting decades, and there aren't yet piles of Li ion batteries begging for recycling. If we check in again in 10 years time, there might well be a glut of old batteries in need of recycling, but the recycling facilities themselves will be bigger, better and more numerous too. Between rising production & the real lifespan of batteries, vs. the speed at which battery recycling is scaling up, I think things might balance out quite nicely.
In the future recycling will replace mining completely, because it will be cheaper. Lead acid batteries are already recycled, same will happen with lithium batteries, making mining unecessary. Batteries will get larger energy density so less batteries will be needed for the same amount of storage.
Sea water will be sufficient for getting more minerals for new batteries when recyclying approaches 99%, and could be used in combination with desalination.
New subscriber here. Thanks for this particular video. News media often focuses on the "new and shine" aspects of EVs. This video shows that companies are stepping up to the challenges of recycling the heart of the vehicles and products which must occur for economic and environmental reasons.
There are multiple steps in going from a post-consumer battery cell to recycled material ready to be used for battery production. This video focused on the high technology step of going from black mass to recovered material. The step of making the black mass is, in comparison, relatively low technology but possibly more dangerous step is processing the batteries to create the black mass. To do that the batteries are shredded. But if not done in the correct manner, there is a high risk of fire.
I would like to see a video about the true CO2 emissions caused by electric vehicle compared to ice compared to mild hybrid ice including production and recycling of all the components including oil and battery production.
Engineering explained did a great video about that:
th-cam.com/video/6RhtiPefVzM/w-d-xo.html
GREAT VIDEO..... EVERY NEXT DAY THIS'S VERY USE FULL........
hugely important topic for the battery business, well done.
Recycling actually can't currently outstrip the need for mining. There just isn't currently enough available recyclable material to meet the demand. We basically need to have at least enough available material out there to be able to manage a scenario where nearly 50% of available materials are in the process of being recycled into something new while the other 50% is still currently in use. And this assumes that at some point demand will peak completely, which I think is highly unlikely. I believe recycling will only ever be able to keep us above the level where our resource gathering isn't unsustainable rather than totally replace it.
I think that recycling is essential and could possibly overtake mining if/when the amount of scrap in the system is a majority of what is needed. Recycling is extremely likely to be far more efficient, environmentally friendly, and cost-effective/inexpensive.
Important video showing the essential but lesser known industry supporting the transition to electric vehicles. It should be possible to build recycling facilities relatively quickly compared to a mine. However, not all batteries will find their way to recycling, and not all the valuable constituents will be recovered as processes are not 100% efficient. The recycling processes also consume energy. Mining will still need to expand significantly to meet demand from electric vehicles, energy storage, and other uses. It is unlikely that supply will meet global demand, so there will be competition between countries for battery materials.
I live not too far from one of the biggest lithium mines in the world in Australia. Sadly, the people involved here can't even manage to reinvigorate just the 90 kilometers of old railway line needed to get the ore to a concentration plant thereby taking umpteem trucks off the road. Sad to hear such big thinking in the USA matched by such small thinking here in Oz.
All Chevy Bolts that have>ever< been produced are now in a massive recall. Until battery replacement, owners are not supposed to charge fully, deplete fully or park a Bolt inside, for fear of fire.
Apparently, the Bolt has no ability to monitor the health of an individual cell in its complete battery pack. Otherwise, Chevy would be able to run a diagnostic to detect which Bolts have the issue.
Kind of like a "check engine light" but for the battery itself.
Here's my question:
Is there any EV manufacturer that has this type of cell level monitoring in its battery pack? Tesla? VW? Anyone?
I've driven a 2013 Nissan LEAF for 8 years, as I think about replacing it with a more modern and longer range EV, this is something I definitely would like to know before I buy.
I think it will be many years until battery recycling replaced mining but it could happen once enough material gets into circulation if these recycling numbers are accurate. As the world moves to EVs though the demand for these materials will only increase exponentially barring a huge shift in battery technology and as such mining will continue to be absolutely necessary for a long time to come
Hey Matt, Reduce, Reuse and recycle. I think the second hand market is a big part of this. You should do a video on this.
The hope is that when we start running out of these resources, recycling might actually become a priority instead of a pr booster