This has become one of my favourite TH-cam channels, and I think this episode is my favourites so far! Partially because of the ever so simple, understandable and very himan 'What if' situations:- 1. What if the .meeting had taken place in the intended concrete bunker? 2. What if both exosive blocks had detonated? 3. What if the briefcase hadn't been moved? And partially because the different outcomes were mainly (fairly clear cut) political outcomes, rather than (slightly more opaque) military ones. Excellent!
I read somewhere that when Von Stauffenberg was assembling the bomb he'd put the detonator into one of the two blocks of plastic explosive and was interrupted before he could prepare the second and so left it out, but if he'd just tossed that block of explosive in the briefcase the detonation of the first would have set it off too, making the blast twice as powerful so it still would have killed Hitler.
I saw that, myth busters maybe or maybe a documentary on it? but they built a replica of the table and room, set off one (as it happened) using manikins, injuries were almost identical to what happened. threw the second one in no detonator and it blew the room apart proving if he had simply tossed it in Hitler would have been killed.
Yes, he was. But all he would have to say to get more time would be something like this, " Sorry, I need a little more time here. I've got a bad case of the runs and made quite a mess." As my wife likes to say, "You've got an answer for everything."
yeah probably. In his defense I would counter by saying in the heat of the moment, It might have been very difficult to be thinking clearly, or thinking of other options.
Excellent summarising James. Not something you get very much when you have talking heads but all three of you handled the issue eceptionally well. Glad to subscribe!
Man what I wouldn’t give to have a diner and long conversation with Dr. Perry and John Parshal. And Drach, and Chris Copsom and so on. Forgive me if I misspelled any names.
The BBC did a two part mini series about Operation Foxley back in 2003 called 'Killing Hitler'. Part dramatization and part documentary. They have a group of experts going through the plan and giving their thoughts about it while interspersed through that are the actual drama elements which are very well acted. It even has Moriarty from the newer BBC Sherlock Holmes series playing the sniper, lol. Its actually very good.
@@ukmediawarrior I think Churchill wasn't in favour. He was concerned if Hitler was killed somebody who knew what they were doing would be put in control.
James’ posing of the question confounds two different things: killing Hitler and the coup succeeding and the resistance controlling Germany. It is not clear that the resistance would have succeeded even if Hitler had been killed. There is some reason to believe that Himmler was aware of the plot, and allowed it to proceed in hopes of swooping in and seizing power after Hitler had been killed.
Explain what could have happened, you learn a lot about the motivations of leaders, and so many undercurrent things going on that I wasn’t aware of- fascinating!
The Ersatzheer wasn't the equivalent of the British Dad's army. It was a formation used to replace, to the extent possible, Germany's grievous losses on the Eastern front. A soldier in the Ersatzheer would likely be killed a wounded on the Eastern front before long.
Oh man! I'm pinning this, can't watch now... But of all the what ifs, this is definitely the most interesting in the whole world history scope!! Saving for later!!
@@billywild5440 Lincoln in his later years had become unambivalent in supporting civil rights and interventionist policies to pursue equality for blacks, and would have been a god-like figure in the north with enough respect to push through controversial measures, so what makes you say that? Imo even if he is more concerned with leniency and rebuilding in the south than a Grant, sticking around and leading the process immediately instead of having Johnson to overcome enables a strong, unified approach with legitimacy that can go alot further and stick around longer. And he can fight through opposition that successors cannot.
There’s a book, later made into a miniseries for German tv, written by someone who was a teenager at the time about his experiences as a youth in WWII Germany. In the miniseries there’s a scene in which he is queuing at a soup kitchen after his city has been practically leveled by a RAF bombing raid. You see him standing in line amidst ruins with flames flickering here and there. And then the man behind him remarks: “At least we’re still lucky to have Hitler. He is the only one after all who can get us out of this mess.” The Germans believed in Hitler as their savior. No way would they have acquiesced in a coup.
Jeah sure!Its the same morons believing that our todays ruling politicians will get us out of the mess they put us in the last 20 years!And you are one of these believers!So better be quiet!
If vallkyrie had succeeded on 20th July '44 there was a chance that the new government could have had a negotiated peace ; the Manhattan project was still halfway, the western allies were still about to breakout of Normandy into northern France , some of Stalin's 10 blows had just landed , some in full swing, some not yet delivered . Although with the werhmacht some what well beaten in the eastern front and the Soviets seeking retribution a lot of convincing was going to be required. But to prevent more killings cooler heads could have prevailed and some proclamations of the Casablanca conference could have been revised .Italy was already in British and US hands. The fates of Germany, Poland, Hungary,Romanian Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Greece the bulkans and probably Scandinavia would have been contentious.
One question that I am curious about is that a staff officer moved the booby-trapped brief case behind the oak pillar that supported the table. How is this actually known? Who saw this take place?
You think the survivors weren't thoroughly questioned afterward? Everyone in the room saw him do it. The officer who moved it(Heinz Brandt) died from his injuries the next day.
Hitler's departure from reality was coming along nicely by July 1944, he'd become a weapon of unparalleled value to the Allied cause. I can imagine the relief in Allied capitals over the plot's failure.
You also don't get the USSR taking Germain machine tools, factories, engineers, and scientists back to Russia. NASA might lose a lot of its best talent, but the USSR's space program's loss is probably even greater.
Had Germany surrendered to the Americans and British the Soviet-American relationship would have been severely affected. And the Red Army could have invaded Manchuria sooner. Likely invaded northern Japan.
One of the most fascinating questions of all re: WW2 what ifs? I'd love a scenario where the bomb kills Hitler, the new German government surrenders early, so as a consequence Eisenhower doesn't become US President and its McArthur instead when the communists invade S. Korea in 1950, leading to him deciding to use nukes against China and thus kicking off an alternative WW3...all because von Stauffenberg's bomb was moved behind the table leg.
What if The Allies were absolutely BRUTAL during the Nuremberg trials? In the OT the trial was run correctly with regards to jurus prudence. In this Alternate timeline the Allies throw jurus prudence out the window
‘They are not sure how long their Italian allies are going to stay in the fight’? The Italians had joined the allies 9 months earlier in Oct 1943! Also ‘more importantly the allies have landed in Normandy and it’s closer to Germany than the Eastern front’ and yet ‘according to diaries the eastern front is seen as the larger threat’ ? A few contradictions and mistakes in your opening summary. I still enjoy these though.
Even after Italy surrendered to the Allies, there was still an Italian puppet government(Italian Social Republic) led by Mussolini fighting on the side of Germany.
Perhaps he was speaking of the Italian fascists that were continuing to fight the Allies at the time. Mussolini's puppet government lasted until April 1945.
Would the Soviets have unlocked the atom bomb as quickly as they historically did, and would their ballistic missile program have advanced as quickly as it did?
I love this show. I love everything about it. As a film industry guy, however, may I suggest that you need some "dulling spray" on the host's zipper because the flares/reflections are really, really distracting? Thanks! (smile)
Hmph. As W.S. Gilbert wryly wrote, "It lends an air of authenticity to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative." (NOT that I think the narrative was either bald or unconvincing - quite the contrary - but I never miss a chance to quote Britain's Greatest Satirist!)
Not discussed is the military situation post Hitler. Without his disastrous interference in the military, with the Wehrmacht now solely directed by military professionals, would the military situation be improved over what happened in history? Of course the Allies would have won eventually even in this case, but an improved German defense may be bought them negotiation time. Also regarding Eisenhower not becoming president with an early collapse of Germany, the US attention turns on Japan and the victor in the Pacific is McCarthy who had political ambitions and could have become president instead of Eisenhower, and might have even defeated Truman in 1948.
Just my two cents: I think there's a power struggle between the various factions in the German govt. I would want to give Himmler the upper hand because of the Waffen SS, Gestapo, etc etc. But I'm not sure Himmler is a forceful enough leader to see through the taking over of the country. Goering is, however. He also has the Luftwaffe on his side, and is the head of industrial production. I wouldn't count out our old buddy Goebbels either. He doesn't have a power base like Himmler and Goering do, but he does have the ability to sway opinions. It would be an interesting scenario to sit back and watch.
If Goering is Reichmarshall, he'd legally be the one to succeed, & named by Hitler. Goering may also have the backing of Sweden/other neutrals due to family connections, & he had tried to look at peace deals earlier. That said, like you say, factions would polarise, & even if one side did manage to concentrate their forces in Berlin, it'd probably come down to who could get the Wehrmacht on their side. Goebbels would just pick a side & carry on doing the same job.. Bormann would be ousted, probably disposed of, as he was allied to no one except himself. Ironically, the Germans may actually do better against the Russians Operation Bagration, as the same mistakes may not be made.
The invasion of France would probably be conventional and more like WWI, since Manstein wouldn't have gotten his radical plan approved and the higher officers weren't fond of it to begin with. The invasion of Norway and Denmark may have played out the same, but France wouldn't have fallen as easily, and Italy may well have not involved itself since their main motivation was taking advantage of the winning side
Would there still be the world trials at the Handw? Would there be occupational Germany so that they could see the concentration camps? Would there be a dismantling of the German army?
I've watched Valkyrie many times. And everytime I keep hoping things happen differently, and they pull it off. I'm going to watch it again tonight, see if they get lucky this time 😬
Fascism is not right wing. It's left wing. The founder of fascism was an Italian socialist named Benito Mussolini. That being said, Hitler himself, in Mein Kampf, defined fascism as "socialism with property rights based on those rights being given to those people who can most efficiently use the property to Germany's benefit." Other than that, it was a very good presentation.
Not really true. Fascism had socialist economic aspects but that alone did not make it left wing. Fascism was opposed to egalitarianism and promoted hierarchies in society - all of this is very right wing.
lmao you really think the Allies would just repeat WW1 and leave Germany in one piece and millions of Freikorps inside. Likely Soviets would tell the Germans to leave their camps intact because they would going to have new customers there.
Ideas for a new what-if video: What if Outlet had pancakes with butter and syrup for breakfast, a Big Mac for lunch, and a steak and salad for dinner? And the most important thing is, what if Outlet didn't watch this video and had no reason to write this comment?
This is a "What if" I have come to think about a lot, lately. As cynical as it may sound, I think that in hindsight the world should be grateful to Hitler to have held our until the very end and then to have committed suicide. He lost everything, he did not become the martyr of a cause, but is widely rememberd as a criminal who deceived many. If the assassination had been successful, there would not have been a denazification. The spirit of "old Germany", with Prussia and Prussian militarism, would possibly still exist. The Germans would have waited for a Putin of sorts to further the revanchism of the post WW I era. Göring was a morphine addict and - beyond his criminal stamina - erratic. My granddad was an early aviator in the Swiss air corps. He told me that he met Göring in the late 1920s when he came to Dübendorf airfield to buy parachutes. "Trouser legs frayed at the seams", that's what he told me. He definitely made a bad impression.
Keep in mind, the total defeat of Germany doomed millions and millions of people in Eastern Europe to over 40 years of horrific oppression and economic misery enforced by Russia. I'm glad Hitler was defeated but the tragedy is that Russia ended up victorious.
True, but one of the things that I have trouble convincing my younger students of is *why* studying history matters. Looking at "what-ifs" can help demonstrate why a particular event mattered by showing the consequences that may have resulted from things going a different way. We could just say, "Harold died at Hastings, end of story", but then a student asks, "So, what?" So, we say, "Well, that allowed William to become the new king", and they say, "So, what?" again. You could just keep up a linear narrative of events, but it's unlikely any of those will ever answer a, "So, what?" By exploring what could have happened if Harold *had* ducked, it at least has a chance of piquing their interest and demonstrating why they might want to care.
Reducing history to a documentation of "X happened here" is pretty dull. Understanding the importance of events requires understanding of how it changed things. Understanding how it changed things requires how it would have otherwise been. It's also a fun exercise in evaluating the facts and their implications. You feel that they might as well been saying "if Harold had lived then Mechazilla would have risen from the Pacific" but they're actually evaluating highly detailed and complex likelihoods.
I really appreciate your efforts! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (mistake turkey blossom warfare blade until bachelor fall squeeze today flee guitar). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?
Bruh, you are pretending to be a a history channel, invite two historians still they are pointing to an anachronistic map while describing an event from 1944!
they could have prevented millions of deaths that still followed from summer 1944 to Mai 1945. In that sense, they are heroes for me. What is almost never mentioned: Austria was the only part of the Reich where Valkyrie actually was successful. The network briefly took power and later it was never uncovered. Those same people did the same thing again in April 1945, when the Soviets had encircled the city, preventing most of the levelling that happened in Berlin. Austria had an acting government even some days before Hitler actually killed himself, partly because of the Valkyrie network there.
Interesting comment that the plotters should be considered as traitors. In the eyes of the Germans may be but in the eys of the Allies they were heroes. What about the assassins of Reinhard Heydrich. Were they heroes or traitors. May be hero is an exaggeration but they were not traitors.
They were heroes. Read a biography of Stauffenberg. The officer class in the German army were mostly upper class catholics. A large portion of them never supported Hitler. Hitler's support came from the working class Germans.
this has become one of my fav shows on youtube as of late .. thank you very much for these
It’s great and I’m particularly enjoying the later episodes that spend more time on the alternative history.
This has become one of my favourite TH-cam channels, and I think this episode is my favourites so far! Partially because of the ever so simple, understandable and very himan 'What if' situations:-
1. What if the .meeting had taken place in the intended concrete bunker?
2. What if both exosive blocks had detonated?
3. What if the briefcase hadn't been moved?
And partially because the different outcomes were mainly (fairly clear cut) political outcomes, rather than (slightly more opaque) military ones.
Excellent!
I read somewhere that when Von Stauffenberg was assembling the bomb he'd put the detonator into one of the two blocks of plastic explosive and was interrupted before he could prepare the second and so left it out, but if he'd just tossed that block of explosive in the briefcase the detonation of the first would have set it off too, making the blast twice as powerful so it still would have killed Hitler.
CORRECT
I saw that, myth busters maybe or maybe a documentary on it? but they built a replica of the table and room, set off one (as it happened) using manikins, injuries were almost identical to what happened. threw the second one in no detonator and it blew the room apart proving if he had simply tossed it in Hitler would have been killed.
wasn't he disturbed by one of Jodl's goons.?
Yes, he was. But all he would have to say to get more time would be something like this, " Sorry, I need a little more time here. I've got a bad case of the runs and made quite a mess." As my wife likes to say, "You've got an answer for everything."
yeah probably. In his defense I would counter by saying in the heat of the moment, It might have been very difficult to be thinking clearly, or thinking of other options.
Very good show. Admiral Perry is a great educator
Fascinating; answers my own questions about what would have happened if the plot succeeded. A superb panel - the moderator included.
Without the fall of the Berlin Wall, would David Hasselhoff be as popular in Germany?
yes, because of Knight Rider and KITT, which was before the Fall of the Berlin Wall.
Absolutely not.
No Berlin Wall, no "Heroes" by David Bowie.
Yea, this is a great channel. Im glad that I found it.
Hitler had the Devil's own luck surviving assassination attempts
No one could do it, so he did it himself
What if Eisenhower lets Patton keep going and does not green light Market Garden.
They weren't expecting the Western Front to break as fast as it did. They didn't have the fuel to continue the advance.
@@jamesricker3997 But they would have had the Channel ports intact and a lot of the railways.
Germany lost the moment they lost the battle of Britain. They lost any chance for a negotiated surrender the moment they invaded Russia.
@@kevinrayner5812 no and no, the Germans did not break round was the ports, they held them far longer than was expected or hoped for
@@rabidmidgeecosse1336 Nice to hear from a man who knows his history.
Excellent summarising James. Not something you get very much when you have talking heads but all three of you handled the issue eceptionally well. Glad to subscribe!
Man what I wouldn’t give to have a diner and long conversation with Dr. Perry and John Parshal. And Drach, and Chris Copsom and so on. Forgive me if I misspelled any names.
The two grandads with their sticks! I thought they were going to start duelling across the map.
man that is the shiniest zipper I have ever seen...
The BBC did a two part mini series about Operation Foxley back in 2003 called 'Killing Hitler'. Part dramatization and part documentary. They have a group of experts going through the plan and giving their thoughts about it while interspersed through that are the actual drama elements which are very well acted. It even has Moriarty from the newer BBC Sherlock Holmes series playing the sniper, lol. Its actually very good.
mark felton has done one too,
though it was/is based on facts
@@grumpyoldman-21 as factual as mark gets lol
@@ukmediawarrior I think Churchill wasn't in favour. He was concerned if Hitler was killed somebody who knew what they were doing would be put in control.
James’ posing of the question confounds two different things: killing Hitler and the coup succeeding and the resistance controlling Germany. It is not clear that the resistance would have succeeded even if Hitler had been killed. There is some reason to believe that Himmler was aware of the plot, and allowed it to proceed in hopes of swooping in and seizing power after Hitler had been killed.
Explain what could have happened, you learn a lot about the motivations of leaders, and so many undercurrent things going on that I wasn’t aware of- fascinating!
This is the 1st one of these I have seen brilliant feel a binge coming on
This is brilliant content - keep it up
Hitler also would make last minute changes to his schedule to throw off assassination attempts
The allies still would have asked for unconditional surrender of germany, might have saved a million lives.
EXCELLENT stuff, thank you!
An excellent discussion, fantastic participants, so much more serious and engaging than most such presentations on TH-cam. Subscribed!! 😁
Brilliant episode.
excellent content. thank you
Very insightful analysis of the subject!
Great episode, thought-provoking as always
The Ersatzheer wasn't the equivalent of the British Dad's army. It was a formation used to replace, to the extent possible, Germany's grievous losses on the Eastern front. A soldier in the Ersatzheer would likely be killed a wounded on the Eastern front before long.
Another question is, would the "dagger thrust" idea exist in Germany after the fall, like it did after ww1?
just a great what if and lovely to see high production values in this video and experts of course. A big what if, what if Heydrich had survived ?
I have the greatest admiration for those german soldiers who tried to do the right thing and remove Hitler.
Yeah the right thing would have been stopping Hitler around 1935 36. The rest is just patchwork to their own reputation
You mean the ones like Von Stupnagel who led troops who supported the Ensatzgruppen in Russia before he transferred to Paris?
Did you not listen?…the plot’s motivations were far less altruistic than popular history has made them out to be.
I think I speak on behalf of many fans of this channel: Please bring Jon Parshall on!
Operation Valkerye was an act of desperation.
Without the Berlin Wall you would never have David Bowie's song heroes
Thanks for remembering Georg Elser and other resistance folks. In Germany they only want to remember the Scholl's Weiße Rose.
Oh man! I'm pinning this, can't watch now... But of all the what ifs, this is definitely the most interesting in the whole world history scope!! Saving for later!!
Have you done a video on what would have happened if the 1943 airplane plot where the bomb was in a liquor bottle worked?
Hard to imagine.
Great video
This might be a tough question for History Undone, but what if the Lincoln assassination not happened?
Trump wouldn't be President.
The South would have gotten a better deal, odd as it sounds.
@@billywild5440 Lincoln in his later years had become unambivalent in supporting civil rights and interventionist policies to pursue equality for blacks, and would have been a god-like figure in the north with enough respect to push through controversial measures, so what makes you say that?
Imo even if he is more concerned with leniency and rebuilding in the south than a Grant, sticking around and leading the process immediately instead of having Johnson to overcome enables a strong, unified approach with legitimacy that can go alot further and stick around longer. And he can fight through opposition that successors cannot.
There’s a book, later made into a miniseries for German tv, written by someone who was a teenager at the time about his experiences as a youth in WWII Germany. In the miniseries there’s a scene in which he is queuing at a soup kitchen after his city has been practically leveled by a RAF bombing raid. You see him standing in line amidst ruins with flames flickering here and there. And then the man behind him remarks: “At least we’re still lucky to have Hitler. He is the only one after all who can get us out of this mess.”
The Germans believed in Hitler as their savior. No way would they have acquiesced in a coup.
Jeah sure!Its the same morons believing that our todays ruling politicians will get us out of the mess they put us in the last 20 years!And you are one of these believers!So better be quiet!
Maybe, but if Hitler had died the spell would have been broken.
I'm surprised the name of Martin Bormann wasn't brought up in the discussion of "what if" when it came to the power structure upon Hitler's demise.
To my understanding Bormann was hated by everyone and only had power due to being Hitler's lackey. When the teacher goes, teacher's pet does too.
If vallkyrie had succeeded on 20th July '44 there was a chance that the new government could have had a negotiated peace ; the Manhattan project was still halfway, the western allies were still about to breakout of Normandy into northern France , some of Stalin's 10 blows had just landed , some in full swing, some not yet delivered . Although with the werhmacht some what well beaten in the eastern front and the Soviets seeking retribution a lot of convincing was going to be required. But to prevent more killings cooler heads could have prevailed and some proclamations of the Casablanca conference could have been revised .Italy was already in British and US hands. The fates of Germany, Poland, Hungary,Romanian Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Greece the bulkans and probably Scandinavia would have been contentious.
Love the reference to Schellenberg
James’ diamond zip keeps appearing
Unconditional surrender was a thing from Jan 1943 hadn't changed
did you mean to put read admiral! maybe rear admiral
One question that I am curious about is that a staff officer moved the booby-trapped brief case behind the oak pillar that supported the table. How is this actually known? Who saw this take place?
You think the survivors weren't thoroughly questioned afterward? Everyone in the room saw him do it. The officer who moved it(Heinz Brandt) died from his injuries the next day.
July 1944 is all you need to know. They acted after the outcome was certain their hero status is greatly embellished.
Hitler's departure from reality was coming along nicely by July 1944, he'd become a weapon of unparalleled value to the Allied cause. I can imagine the relief in Allied capitals over the plot's failure.
don't worry, I hit the like button twice 👍
You also don't get the USSR taking Germain machine tools, factories, engineers, and scientists back to Russia. NASA might lose a lot of its best talent, but the USSR's space program's loss is probably even greater.
I'd love to see " what if Italy joined on the side of the central powers in WW1"
Had Germany surrendered to the Americans and British the Soviet-American relationship would have been severely affected. And the Red Army could have invaded Manchuria sooner. Likely invaded northern Japan.
Major issues with the sound. Around 20 minutes in
I had none, I am using windows 11 with Google Chrome.
One of the most fascinating questions of all re: WW2 what ifs?
I'd love a scenario where the bomb kills Hitler, the new German government surrenders early, so as a consequence Eisenhower doesn't become US President and its McArthur instead when the communists invade S. Korea in 1950, leading to him deciding to use nukes against China and thus kicking off an alternative WW3...all because von Stauffenberg's bomb was moved behind the table leg.
What if The Allies were absolutely BRUTAL during the Nuremberg trials?
In the OT the trial was run correctly with regards to jurus prudence. In this Alternate timeline the Allies throw jurus prudence out the window
If they succeeded, would be that have meant the government would only change hands, a bit less radical but still?
If you watch Sam Elliott in "AT The Man who killed Hitler and then Bigfoot" Project Valkyrie worked.
‘They are not sure how long their Italian allies are going to stay in the fight’? The Italians had joined the allies 9 months earlier in Oct 1943! Also ‘more importantly the allies have landed in Normandy and it’s closer to Germany than the Eastern front’ and yet ‘according to diaries the eastern front is seen as the larger threat’ ? A few contradictions and mistakes in your opening summary. I still enjoy these though.
Openning was a complete mess, Im surprised almost no one has mentioned, they are talking 1943 and not 1944
Even after Italy surrendered to the Allies, there was still an Italian puppet government(Italian Social Republic) led by Mussolini fighting on the side of Germany.
Perhaps he was speaking of the Italian fascists that were continuing to fight the Allies at the time. Mussolini's puppet government lasted until April 1945.
Would the Soviets have unlocked the atom bomb as quickly as they historically did, and would their ballistic missile program have advanced as quickly as it did?
only when Hitler started losing....
They had Body Doubles to replace him.
I love this show. I love everything about it. As a film industry guy, however, may I suggest that you need some "dulling spray" on the host's zipper because the flares/reflections are really, really distracting? Thanks! (smile)
Hmph. As W.S. Gilbert wryly wrote, "It lends an air of authenticity to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative." (NOT that I think the narrative was either bald or unconvincing - quite the contrary - but I never miss a chance to quote Britain's Greatest Satirist!)
Not discussed is the military situation post Hitler. Without his disastrous interference in the military, with the Wehrmacht now solely directed by military professionals, would the military situation be improved over what happened in history? Of course the Allies would have won eventually even in this case, but an improved German defense may be bought them negotiation time. Also regarding Eisenhower not becoming president with an early collapse of Germany, the US attention turns on Japan and the victor in the Pacific is McCarthy who had political ambitions and could have become president instead of Eisenhower, and might have even defeated Truman in 1948.
Another superb production, all better for having no trace of messrs Holland and Murray ruining proceedings with their “personalities”.
The saintly Von Stauffenberg & co would have been told again what unconditional surrender meant - apart from that, no real change
Just my two cents: I think there's a power struggle between the various factions in the German govt. I would want to give Himmler the upper hand because of the Waffen SS, Gestapo, etc etc. But I'm not sure Himmler is a forceful enough leader to see through the taking over of the country. Goering is, however. He also has the Luftwaffe on his side, and is the head of industrial production. I wouldn't count out our old buddy Goebbels either. He doesn't have a power base like Himmler and Goering do, but he does have the ability to sway opinions. It would be an interesting scenario to sit back and watch.
The LW was effectively completely destroyed by then
If Goering is Reichmarshall, he'd legally be the one to succeed, & named by Hitler. Goering may also have the backing of Sweden/other neutrals due to family connections, & he had tried to look at peace deals earlier. That said, like you say, factions would polarise, & even if one side did manage to concentrate their forces in Berlin, it'd probably come down to who could get the Wehrmacht on their side.
Goebbels would just pick a side & carry on doing the same job..
Bormann would be ousted, probably disposed of, as he was allied to no one except himself.
Ironically, the Germans may actually do better against the Russians Operation Bagration, as the same mistakes may not be made.
Would there still be The Nuremberg Trials?
interesting.I argued this with a professor a few yeas ago.The consensus was that the SS would have taken over,and probably a seperate armistice
Would Germany still be divided?
What If Georg Elser’s Bomb Had Killed Hitler?
The invasion of France would probably be conventional and more like WWI, since Manstein wouldn't have gotten his radical plan approved and the higher officers weren't fond of it to begin with. The invasion of Norway and Denmark may have played out the same, but France wouldn't have fallen as easily, and Italy may well have not involved itself since their main motivation was taking advantage of the winning side
Would there still be the world trials at the Handw? Would there be occupational Germany so that they could see the concentration camps? Would there be a dismantling of the German army?
Deep thoughts, similar to me asking my wife what's for dinner.
What if people stopped making What If Nobody Actually Really Knows videos?
We will never know!
@davidej9091 actually, no, it would minimise pointless videos
mark felton has done a review of operation foxley and how ot would have played out
Sadly Stauffenberg couldn’t do to Hitler what Maverick did to that reactor complex but he didn’t have a 2000lb Paveway!
Funny how the word "denazification" leaves a bad tast in my mouth these days ... these last 1000+ days.
I've watched Valkyrie many times. And everytime I keep hoping things happen differently, and they pull it off.
I'm going to watch it again tonight, see if they get lucky this time 😬
Don’t give George lucus ideas!
As is said, the third time is a charm.
Admiral - 1, Bubons - 0.
Interesting. How about a what if the assassination of Abraham Lincoln had not happened?😁🏴
Reconstruction would have gone full speed and the KKK/Democrat Party of Nathan Bedford Forrest would have been crushed.....
Zipper too shiny! 😄
Fascism is not right wing. It's left wing. The founder of fascism was an Italian socialist named Benito Mussolini. That being said, Hitler himself, in Mein Kampf, defined fascism as "socialism with property rights based on those rights being given to those people who can most efficiently use the property to Germany's benefit." Other than that, it was a very good presentation.
There are 2 differing positions on this: on the one side the view of political scientists and on the other side you.
Not different to Catholic position about social question.
The question is; since when liberal libertarians iluminists are right wing?
Not really true. Fascism had socialist economic aspects but that alone did not make it left wing. Fascism was opposed to egalitarianism and promoted hierarchies in society - all of this is very right wing.
@@tancreddehauteville764 Okay.......and you find this where in the writings of Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler????
Well, the battle of the Battle of the bulge would not happened
We would not have the Nuremburg trials . .
If Hitler dies then Germany wins a peace settlement. Hitler was the main reason that Germany lost.
lmao you really think the Allies would just repeat WW1 and leave Germany in one piece and millions of Freikorps inside. Likely Soviets would tell the Germans to leave their camps intact because they would going to have new customers there.
No, Germany would have had to agree to a regime change and occupation.
Ideas for a new what-if video: What if Outlet had pancakes with butter and syrup for breakfast, a Big Mac for lunch, and a steak and salad for dinner? And the most important thing is, what if Outlet didn't watch this video and had no reason to write this comment?
This is a "What if" I have come to think about a lot, lately. As cynical as it may sound, I think that in hindsight the world should be grateful to Hitler to have held our until the very end and then to have committed suicide. He lost everything, he did not become the martyr of a cause, but is widely rememberd as a criminal who deceived many. If the assassination had been successful, there would not have been a denazification. The spirit of "old Germany", with Prussia and Prussian militarism, would possibly still exist. The Germans would have waited for a Putin of sorts to further the revanchism of the post WW I era.
Göring was a morphine addict and - beyond his criminal stamina - erratic. My granddad was an early aviator in the Swiss air corps. He told me that he met Göring in the late 1920s when he came to Dübendorf airfield to buy parachutes. "Trouser legs frayed at the seams", that's what he told me. He definitely made a bad impression.
Keep in mind, the total defeat of Germany doomed millions and millions of people in Eastern Europe to over 40 years of horrific oppression and economic misery enforced by Russia. I'm glad Hitler was defeated but the tragedy is that Russia ended up victorious.
“Why can’t I have the kind of generals that Hitler had?” said which US president?
Abraham Lincoln
Trump
What if the moon really is made of cheese??!
What if King Harold had ducked? What if Nelson had two arms? History is about the analysis of what was not fairy tales of what if.
True, but one of the things that I have trouble convincing my younger students of is *why* studying history matters. Looking at "what-ifs" can help demonstrate why a particular event mattered by showing the consequences that may have resulted from things going a different way. We could just say, "Harold died at Hastings, end of story", but then a student asks, "So, what?" So, we say, "Well, that allowed William to become the new king", and they say, "So, what?" again. You could just keep up a linear narrative of events, but it's unlikely any of those will ever answer a, "So, what?"
By exploring what could have happened if Harold *had* ducked, it at least has a chance of piquing their interest and demonstrating why they might want to care.
What if Stanley hadn't of helped Henry /Bosworth , Richard lll , ect ect
Reducing history to a documentation of "X happened here" is pretty dull.
Understanding the importance of events requires understanding of how it changed things.
Understanding how it changed things requires how it would have otherwise been.
It's also a fun exercise in evaluating the facts and their implications.
You feel that they might as well been saying "if Harold had lived then Mechazilla would have risen from the Pacific" but they're actually evaluating highly detailed and complex likelihoods.
I really appreciate your efforts! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (mistake turkey blossom warfare blade until bachelor fall squeeze today flee guitar). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?
The collapse of the Berlin Wall was triggered by the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union collapsed two years after the wall came down.
We need one for Trump. He is going to destroy us.
Bruh, you are pretending to be a a history channel, invite two historians still they are pointing to an anachronistic map while describing an event from 1944!
THE WEST GIVES IN... KLUGE KNOWS !!!!!
"Conspirators" or "Traitors" ? Regardless if ya agree with what they did - they were all traitors.
It drives me fuxking nuts that the bomb plotters are thought of as heroes. They were not in any way shape or form.
AGREED
they could have prevented millions of deaths that still followed from summer 1944 to Mai 1945. In that sense, they are heroes for me.
What is almost never mentioned: Austria was the only part of the Reich where Valkyrie actually was successful. The network briefly took power and later it was never uncovered. Those same people did the same thing again in April 1945, when the Soviets had encircled the city, preventing most of the levelling that happened in Berlin. Austria had an acting government even some days before Hitler actually killed himself, partly because of the Valkyrie network there.
Interesting comment that the plotters should be considered as traitors. In the eyes of the Germans may be but in the eys of the Allies they were heroes. What about the assassins of Reinhard Heydrich. Were they heroes or traitors. May be hero is an exaggeration but they were not traitors.
@@kevinrayner5812 they are literally the definition of traitors.
They were heroes. Read a biography of Stauffenberg. The officer class in the German army were mostly upper class catholics. A large portion of them never supported Hitler. Hitler's support came from the working class Germans.