Great video. I am curious if you factored in the '94 baseball strike in terms of hits. Mariners played 112 games in 1994; when the strike ended in '95, M's played 145 games, so -67 games which prob wouldn't have been a big deal. Assuming an average of 4 at-bats per game, Ichiro would've lost 275 at-bats from the strike, times by your estimated batting average of .325 and that would mean 89 fewer hits (89.375). So his hit total would be 4,295 hits.
@@volodymyrzablotsky5372 So there were two strikes that led to cancelled games during Pete Rose's career: 1972 and 1981. In 1972, Pete missed 8 games due to the strike. That season he had 198 hits, or an average of 1.29 hits per game. So he would have 10 additional hits assuming he played all 162. In 1981 he missed 55 games playing for the Phillies and had 140 hits that season, or 1.31 hits per game. That factors to 72 additional hits. Pete played in every game so we can safely assume he would of played all 162. So basically Pete could've had 82 more hits assuming his average hits per game during those seasons. So give Pete 4338 career hits.
Another factor, besides the decreased number of seasonal games he played in Japan, is that Ichiro batted leadoff in MLB - which provided more opportunities to add to his raw hit totals. His batting average in Nippon Baseball was much higher, but he actually averaged more hits per game in MLB than he did in Japan. Batting leadoff is the main factor in this. In his Nippon career, Ichiro had 1278 hits in 951 games. This average of 1.3438 hits per game would amount to 218 hits in a 162 season. But in his first ten MLB seasons, Ichiro had 2244 hits in 1588 games. This average of 1.413 hits per games would jump to 229 hits in 162 games. His batting average was 20 points lower in the majors but his hits per game was measurably higher due to batting leadoff.
You say that he's batting leadoff because he's fast. And how many hits did he beat out in the infield! If a 3rs baseman bobbled just a bit, he gets to first.
"His batting average in Nippon Baseball was much higher, but he actually averaged more hits per game in MLB than he did in Japan." This is factually inaccurate. He had 3089 MLB hits in 2653 games which is 1.16 hits/game. Where in Japan he had 1278 in 951 in 1.34 games. If you want to cherry pick data, and only count his first ten MLB seasons then that statement should reflect it. That statement is an unconditional more hits per game in JPPL, which is factually inaccurate.
Pete Rose batted lead off two thirds of a little more than 14000at bat's so roughly around 9400 at bat's Ichiro had a little less than 10000 at bat's to be honest We are splitting hairs I'd love to have both of them on my team
Awesome video!! If Ichiro had joined the Seattle Mariners to play in the Kingdome in 1994 or 95, could you imagine the sort of monster batting lineup they'd have if they added him to a group that already included A-Rod, Ken Griffey Jr, Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner, Joey Cora - just to name a few? Nobody would dare want to walk Ichiro if there was the threat of A-Rod, Griffey and Edgar Martinez behind him. Also, think about how fast a young Ichiro would be, stealing bases and driving pitchers crazy while they had to pitch to those guys? And also think of how much better those Mariners teams would have been defensively with Ichiro in right instead of Jay Buhner, and Griffey in center?
Pretty hard to walk Ichiro under any circumstances, but imagine this in '96: RF - Ichiro (???/???/.???) SS - Alex Rodriguez (.358/.414/.631 - 9.4 bWAR) CF - Ken Griffey, Jr. (.303/.392/.628 - 9.7 bWAR)) DH - Edgar Martinez (.327/.464/.595 - 6.5 bWAR) LF - Jay Buhner (.271/.369/.557 - 3.5 bWAR) 1B - Paul Sorrento (.289/.370/.507 - 1.1 bWAR) 3B - Doug Strange (.235/.290/.333 - -0.1 bWAR)) C - Dan Wilson (.285/.330/.444 - 3.4 bWAR) 2B - Joey Cora (.291/.340/.417 - 1.0 bWAR) 4 HOF caliber players at the top of the lineup. Career years from Buhner, Wilson, and Sorrento. A very productive year for Cora.
Ooooooooooo, can't wait til sabermetrics and AI get together, just put together the all time dream team!!!! Rickey Henderson Cf Tony Gwynn Rf Gary Sheffield lf Fred McGriff 1b Ken Caminiti 3b Roberto Alomar 2b Benito Santiago C Ozzie Smith SS Gaylord Perry P My all time San Diego Padres (positions mixed a bit career vs. when played here and stuff)
The true crux of this argument is that Ichiro may have been the last great player that *could have* passed Rose had he played his whole career in MLB. No one else is even close. Much love for Ichiro, one of my personal favorites, but Rose's record stands, and likely will for a long long time.
It shouldn't. His stats should be wiped from the record books from whatever game they have evidence he first bet on. In all actuality, he was probably betting on baseball before he got the call up, so none of his hits should count. Ichiro wins again.
@@thejoshpresle Pete and others have publicly stated that Rose only bet on the Reds when he thought they would win. He never bet on them to lose. So according to you Rose's betting on the Reds to WIN negates the batting he did in the game? That's a far stretch! Should Bonds, Conseco, Strawberry, McGuire... and all those other coked out/steroid users lose all the records they earned? Pete's records are incredible... He deserves his place in the BHoF
The era in which the two played is important as well. While there were some hard throwers in Rose’s era, from an all-up average, the average MLB fastball was in the upper mid to high 80s. In Ichiro’s era, the average fastball was 91-93. In addition, Ichiro’s era is a more specialized game in terms of pitching. Long, middle, short relievers and closers. It was not uncommon to see Ichiro face multiple pitchers in a game, fresher arms and different styles and pitches. Rose’s era was not nearly as specialized. Starters were expected to pitch deep into games. Rose would have a chance to see the same pitcher 3 or more times in a game. Make adjustments and as the game wore on, the pitcher’s arm gets a little more tired. Pitching has evolved since the 60s, 70s and 80s where velocity has increased along with spin rates on breaking stuff. In my opinion, Ichiro would have had an easier time to hit in Rose’s era and Rose would find it more difficult if he played in the 2000s
I always say the eras in which they play(ed) in also helps. Only because it may have made some difference but it might have evened up in another way. Rose started his career when there were only 20 teams in baseball but played with no interleague ever, all the while only batting in the NL. He never really faced the AL great pitchers unless they were traded to NL (ie: Ryan) or an all star game. Ichiro always played interleague. Also Rose played against only 9 or 11 teams his whole career so he faced the NL's best more often. But this discussion can be pulled in many directions by one thread!!
@@bdog1323 I didn't know they didn't have interleague play until 1997 (had to look it up) that is so interesting. I thought interleague play had most likely been around since the 1970s or 1980s. That is crazy to think in the 70s and 80s you could go your whole career and not face someone in a regular season game. I think a no interleague format (while worse overall) does make the world series a little more exciting though.
In your opinion is right. Ichiro didn't face as many HOF legends as Rose, and Rose held his own against them, and then some! In my opinion, Rose IS the Hit King, and all the Star Trek mumbo-jumbo fantasy land suppositions won't change that anymore than Rose's own dumb choices cost him a ton of respect and high regard today.
Wow man, it's always a great feeling finding a small channel with such a high production quality and level of analysis! Nice job. One of the things I like about these types of questions is that there is never going to be a satisfying, objective answer, but in the end you can still come out with a greater appreciation for the level of skill and consistency required to even be in the running. Personally, I revered Ichiro as a kid (and still do! As an Asian kid growing up a Mariners fan, he is my favorite player of all time). That being said, I feel as though Pete Rose is the all-time hit king, given the unarguable fact that he did actually achieve all of these hits in the MLB. Once the question is reframed in terms of "hypothetical" hits, the value of the record loses meaning a little, in my opinion. However, I also feel like there were WAY too many detractors of Ichiro's accomplishments in the NPB. I believe that this mentality is changing nowadays, but there seemed to be a common conception amongst the baseball elitists in the US that no international baseball was worth watching or appreciating. How about a compromise? We can decide that Pete Rose and Ichiro are, together, the two greatest contact hitters of all time.
1960's batting averages were historically low until MLB lowered the mound in 1969. Rose would have gotten more hits earlier in his career with a lowered pitching mound.
Ichiro? No - Rose has more, with his Minor League hits added. Ichiros don't count anymore in the USA/ MLB than Oh's Home Runs, no matter how much you want to make it so... 😎
Great video... keep it up... buuuut... counting Ichiro's 20-21 age seasons assuming he'd get called up in an alternate universe even though he only had 36 career hits age 18-19 is still a huge assumption as Rose was kept down until age 22 even though he had 89 hits age 18-19 and 330 hits age 20-21. If you assume Rose makes the majors at the same age as Ichiro, it's not that clear cut. Rose's hit prowess somewhat gets underestimated. It took Ichiro age 27-42 to reach 3,000 hits and he got 3,030 hits in those seasons. From age 27-42, Rose got 3,091 hits.
I agree with you, I think people get way too high about the Ichiro beating Rose's number of hits stuff. There are some conceivable universes where if he was born and raised in the USA it happens. However, I think in most conceivable universes Rose is still the all time hit King. The other thing to keep in mind, is the only reason Ichiro has any shot in the first place is because his walk rate is so low.
That is the BEST counter-argument I've heard. I still don't agree that any methodology used is going to be conclusive, though. Adjusting for variations in competitive level and era is always going to be VERY speculative and the best approach is going to be comparing EACH against the league averages; not the totals. Which doesn't serve the Hit King argument at all.
I actually support Rose in this debate, but to act like those pitchers were somehow uniquely elite while guys like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Justin Verlander, Zach Greinke, etc are irrelevant, is disingenuous. There were plenty of elite pitchers in Ichiro's time in MLB as well.
Interesting. But could we have just added Pete Rose's minor league hits and see how that compares to Ichiro's NPB + MLB hits. I remember Pete Rose complaining that his minor league hits didn't count so Ichiro's NPB hits shouldn't count either.
There is also the likelihood he hits below .300 these things are excellent to discuss and what make sports great. Yes im biased. I went to same highschool rose did.
Ichiro is an amazing player and one of the best of his generation. But... American players that can't make it in the US rake in the NPB regularly. Guys that are at the end of their career extend it by playing in Japan. Five of the top 31 players recording hits for 2022 are former prospects/MLB players Dayan Viciedo (career .254 hitter in 5 mlb seasons), Jose Osuna (.241 in 4 seasons), Ryan McBroom (.261 in 3 seasons), Gregory Polanco (.241 in 8 seasons) and Neftali Soto (.071 in 2 seasons). In 1994, his first full year in the NPB, Ichiro hit .385 in 130 games. He lead the league. However, in the Japan Pacific League, 12 players hit over .300 with (10 hit over .315, 3 hit over .348). Considering there are exactly 6 teams in the Japan Pacific League with 25 players, and only 15 of those are position players, that means that almost 15 percent of the league hit .300 or better. So, let's not pretend that the NPB is even comparable to the MLB for getting hits. Ichiro had a career .311 batting average. Claiming he'd hit .325 in the early part of his career when very few young hitters do better at the very beginning of their career is pure speculation. Also, Ichiro realistically probably doesn't make the majors until age 22 to 24 as well considering he didn't do well in his first couple of years. You're neglecting the fact that the vast majority of teams don't like starting the clock on their young players, and with Ichiro not hitting for power, it's far less likely he gets called up early. Starting him in the MLB at age 20 when he didn't do well in the NPB the first two years is ridiculous.
decent forecast of alternate universe. mine is better. ie if you are saying Ichiro was in MLB for his 20 and 21 age seasons, then you must add Rose's 20 and 21 age seasons from the minors.
Any chance we can get you to do A) Sadaharu Oh with home runs, B) Ted Williams, all major categories and C) Babe Ruth...if he had stayed a pitcher, or had always been a hitter?
At age 20, Ichiro set the Japanese record for batting average and hits in a season. At age 20, Pete Rose was doing well in the Class D minor leagues. Rose argued that if Ichiro's Japanese-league hits should count, then his minor-league hits should count. It's not the same. Mind you, class D baseball is absolutely valid, awesome baseball, but come on, get real. Ichiro was simply better at compiling hits than probably anyone who ever played. All-time great glove, arm, and wheels, too.
Nothing was better than watching Charlie Hustle slide headfirst into 3rd, plus he could play at about any position. Ichiro was an outfielder his entire professional career. As for no one has ever been better at collecting hits.. Ted Williams fans might have a few words with you on that.. Ty Cobb's fan's would as well. There was a time when the professionals played in a manner in what was considered dirty in today's era.. Cobb was the best at that.. He would spike you on purpose. One thing that always bothered me about Cobb though was that he was labeled a racist. He wasn't.
I think in most conceivable universes Pete Rose would still be the MLB hits king even if Ichiro was born in the USA, and grew up here. Another thing that is not often talked about it Pete Rose had 4256 hits and 1566 walks. Ichiro had 3089 hits and only 647walks. Even in the few universes where Ichiro manages to beat out Pete Rose as the hit king I don't think he could ever beat him in hits+walks.
If this and if that and how bout etc, etc etc. The truth is Rose faced better pitching in his days than ichiro did In his days. The other factor is,,,nobody knows and who cares, Rose is the hit king,,,period!
If Ichiro played in the MLB his whole career I'm confident that the record would have been enough motivation for him to stay healthy, work hard, and have even more longevity. Even if he was no longer valuable to a top winning team there would still be some team who would take him. And we're talking about hits, not HR or SB where age really might hinder production.
You do have to wonder, however, if Ichiro had played the entire time in the states, if some idiot would have tried to coach him out of his hitting style because he wants more home runs.
While are we still talking about this? Yea he probably could've, but it didn't happen. Doesn't affect his greatness. I swear some people are just butt hurt that the record belongs to an American ball player. Let it go
And if Jordan didn't retire twice we wouldn't question if he was the goat either but he did so we do. Ichiro didn't get all of his hits in the only league that matters (MLB) so Pete is the goat likely till the end of time. #BigRedMachine
@@lordofthemound3890 When it comes to hitting they're neck and neck but Ichiro was still better of course but overall baseball player, it wasn't even close. Ichiro won 10 Gold Glove awards while Rose only had 2, Ichiro has stolen much more bases than Rose. So yeah, Ichiro all day!
Ichiro is easily one of the most underrated players in baseball history. Elite contact hitter, elite baserunner and elite defensively. His only "flaw" was his lack of power
Except that he did actually have plenty of power, he personally didn't like to utilize it as base hits are generally more useful than Home runs, His team mates through the years said that during Batting Practice he'd always crush homers into the upper decks of stadiums. There were a couple years were Ichiro was playing in Japan and his coach asked him personally to hit for more power, and he crankedout 30 homers that season.
Can we get Ruth back his HR crown in this alternate universe? Didn't he play entirely in the 154 games per season era? Hmm... nope, that only gets us to 751. Aaron still edges him out by 4, but it's a nail biter. Of course, since we live in the worst possible universe I'm assuming this other universe is the 'good' universe, so they would have busted Barry for steroids before he even got to the 700 club, and Aaron would still be king. Pujols would be just the 3rd member of the club. Of course, maybe in the alternate universe we had a truly international league and Oh gets to bring his home runs over (smaller parks over there, but fewer games). And Josh Gibson would be in there too, adjusted for games played and competition level.
Good video. Could Ichiro have had more career hits? I would say, yes, his chance of that happening was very good. Until then, Pete remains king as far as most hits go. As far as the art of hitting, neither of these two players can touch Tony Gwynn and its not even close.
While I love and respect Tony Gwynn, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Ichiro had more potential and talent than most people knew about. He could pin point his hits if he wanted too.
Ichiro and Pete were both workhorses. Ichiro all around though is the greatest baseball player that ever lived. You could win a world series with an Ichiro at all 9 positions.
Who's gonna pitch and who's gonna catch? Rose excelled at multiple positions.. Ichiro played outfield. Outfield is not considered a skill position on defense.
He would have come close and but he did slow up in his very late 30s while rose had a few more solid years. However if he broke 4000 I'm sure he might have stuck around to break it. Could use the argument that if you count his Japanese number you have to count Rose's minor league hits too. Either way both were hitting machines and fantastic ballplayers and fun as hell to watch.
If frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their butts if when they jumped….but that’s in fantasy. In reality they don’t and in reality Rose is still the All Time MLB hit king.😂
One thing MLB played about 112 games in 1994, and 144 games in 1995. That's about 70 games. So, he have to subtract about 95 hits from the total. So, he ends up with 4289 with his .325 average Still a record
Like hell he is. Pete may be a west Cincinnati hillbilly but no one in the history of the league of anyone close to Pete’s accomplishments showed the respect to the fans like Pete did with his constant hustle and relentless effort. If you can’t handle that Pete played in the MLB and not the cheese and wine snob league that’s your problem. Y’all must be using that special math stuff by counting Ichiro’s Japanese league hits and not Pete’s minor league hits and the reality is Japanese professional baseball is about the same level as division two minor league ball. Let’s not forget Pete played in 5 World Series, won three, to Ichirō’s 0. So how about giving the real hits King some respect.
@@tabathasheffroth7981 that he is indeed guilty of. I was working in Franklin, OH when that went down and used to go to Ron Peters Sports Bar for lunch often and I knew then Peters was pond scum, dealt in drugs and was believed to have Mob connections so when I heard Pete was hanging out with him I was like WTF?!
@Adam Johnson That's a lot of words to not address how "baseball greatness personified" only hit over .261 in one postseason in his career. Wonder if he had a little, ahem, "help" in 2002 when he *finally* played like a star. Furthermore, who is saying that Ichiro was better than chemically enhanced Barry? Certainly not me. And I'm not sure what I wrote that led you to accuse me of being an eye test guy, my dude. That said, if you'd prefer more modern analytics (while also celebrating a star pitcher), then let's give Ruth the title as greatest ever. He easily surpasses your boyhood hero in WAR and OPS+. Oh, and in the future, it's "RBI" not "RBIs," sport.
Really? How many positions did Ichiro play? Wasn't it just the outfield? Doesn't sound all-around to me. Rose could play about any position with skill. He could also switch hit. Ichiro only batted left handed. Hell if you want to consider someone as best all-around baseball player you have to consider Babe Ruth.. who was an excellent pitcher when he broke into the majors and only stopped pitching because his coach in Boston wouldn't let him pitch because of his batting.
There’s also quality of pitching. Apparently, Sadaharu Oh couldn’t hit a sinker when some MLB players visited Japan for an exhibition. Granted, if he was in MLB full time he may have been able to figure it out.
What if Ucguri did? What if Ted Williams had not lost 5 years to Military Service? What if Ruth and Gerig had not played in a stadium with a short porch in right field? Williams was so much better than everyone else, no comparison.
I think Ichiro would've gotten the hits record if he played in the MLB for 24 seasons, but adding his NPB hits to his MLB hits and calling him the professional baseball hits king is silly. You might as well add Rose's minor league hits at that point.
Then you would have to add Ichiro's before he made it to the big leagues in Japan. This is a flawed take that is always used mostly by ignorant Racists .
@Melted nostrils Born without nostrils if you added Ichiro's NPB and MLB hits, you get a smaller total than Rose's MLB and MiLB hits. That's the point, you can't just cherry pick which professional league hits to count. I mean, nobody credible compares Sadaharu Oh's home run total to Hank Aaron's. Edit: Ichiro's professional career started with Orix Blue Wave, so all his pro hits are with NPB and MLB.
@@mrmacross I just said you would have to count Ichiro's hits in Japan before he got to their Major league, and you repeat the same fallacy LMAO . And of course you make a false equivalency About Oh . Oh never came to the MLB and proved he could dominate, let alone set the all time single season Home Run Record, or record for Home Runs his first Ten years like Ichiro did with hits. Obviously anyone who would make that false equivalency is either prejudiced and dishonest, or has no IQ. You sound like both.
@@mrmacross I see you had to go back and edited your comment, but didn't respond like the coward you are. You don't count minor league hits LMAO . NPB, isn't a minor league, Ichiro was playing at the highest league possible he could have from where he was born. It's a Major League. The bottom line is Ichiro has more hits in his life than Rose, if you want to take it back to little league LMAO.
@@meltednostrilsbornwithoutn781 First off... You're an idiot for calling people racist when you don't know the reason they think the way they do. You assume way to much! So tell us why players leave the MLB at the end of their career and find continued or even greater success in Japan? it's because of the level of play.. race has nothing to do with it. The level of play is just not as good over there. I'm not saying it's bad.. it's just somewhere between Triple A and the Majors.. but it's not the majors. Also Ichiro started in the NPB at the age of 18. He didn't start on a "minor" league team, so he has no minor league stats. Again Rose wins either way.. If you count Ichiro's NPB stats along with his MLB stats then you have to include Rose's minor league stats... Without the NPB, Rose wins.. If you count the NPB and Rose's time in the minors, Rose still wins.
Ichiro from the left side batters box... I think he would have passed Pete. Plus, if he was close, he may have played a little longer to get the record. Dude never seemed to miss time. Stretched the whole game to stay loose.
I agree with your conclusion but not with your methodology. The error lies really with how the LEAGUE performed during those years that you're plugging Ichiro into. What you should probably be doing is comparing how well he performed above the league average and plug that into MLB's seasons. That would account better for live ball and dead ball years. I have NO PROBLEM with arguing that Ichiro would have achieved 4300+ hits in MLB. He might have even improved faster with better competition and coaching at an earlier year. Certainly, his trash talking would have been unparalleled.
Ichiro would have had 5000 hits in MLB if he'd played his first 9 seasons in MLB. Rose couldn't have carried Ichiro's jockstrap in any aspect of the game.
@@rodshoaf Your response doesn't refute my proposition: to wit, that Ichiro would have had 5000 hits had he played his full career in MLB, and that Ichiro was a superior ballplayer than Rose in every aspect of baseball -- hitting overall, hitting for power, hitting for average, fielding, throwing, and baserunning. Even if Rose could have had 6000 hits in Japanese baseball, it wouldn't have made him better than Rose as a baseball player. Rose was a fine player, but Ichiro was better. End of argument.
@@Whitegorillaboy oh please Ichiro had 1400 less hits than Rose.. 43 less homeruns.. over 500 less RBI.. Ichiro played in the NPB.. a AAA league compared to MLB. Where is Ichiro on the all time leader list for hits? Why he's standing at number 25... Rose is number 1 As for hitting with power.. again Ichiro far less runs batted in... far less homeruns.. far less in about every stat except stolen bases. Ichiro only played outfield.. Rose played EVERY position except shortstop, catcher and pitcher. So Ichiro was not a better overall baseball player. That goes to Rose. In fact contrary to what the poster of this video claims.. Pitching WAS better during the entire time of Pete Rose's career.. not once from 1963 to 1986 did the leagues pitching ERA go over 4.00... Yet during Ichiro's career.. ERA was only under 4.00 4 times. The game today is geared towards hitting... the balls are harder and they bounce more as the cores are made of hard rubber instead of the cork they used to be made from... and it makes it easier to get a hit as a result. THIS IS A FACT!
It's been proven over and over again that corking a bat does not help with hitting. The only thing it might do is give a little more bat speed, but it's been proven negligible on that point.
Better fielder? Ichiro spent his entire career in the outfield. Outfield is considered a lower skill position than infield. Rose played every position on the diamond except for pitcher, catcher, and shortstop. Better baserunner? Sorry I disagree.. Nothing beat watching Charlie Hustle slide head first into third. I'll fight you on that! Better Teammate? Say that to the Big Red Machine of the 70s! Better person? Do you know either of them personally? I doubt you do!
This is a very cool exercise. The different arguments are compelling for both sides. The one thing that has nothing to do with this, but colors my view is Rose's attitude and complete dismissal of this fun debate and Ichiro's ability. But what do you expect from a philanderer, tax cheat and degenerate gambler.
BALONEY - Yeah, keep IGNORING Rose's Minor League Hits, and thanks for the Star Trek/ Super Hero alternate universe line - Tons of desperation and not an ounce of reality. I would LOVE to see an Ichiro today, and I miss fine .300 hitters in today's -YAWN - MLB. Rose, however is The Hit King, MLB & Otherwise. Ichiro couldn't even buy a hit his last couple of years.
this is a nice conclusion on its surface. I would have liked to see a couple of other factors in play.. 1. PITCHING. it would be safe to assume that MLB pitchers threw harder and faster than their Japanese counterparts. how would Ichiro face off against Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux? Who would be the Japanese counterparts to these pitching greats? 2. PARK DIMENSIONS. Japanese parks are by average, smaller in playable dimensions than MLB parks. especially in Pete Rose's day where half of the stadiums were built from a cookie cutter template (you know im right) would some of the home runs Ichiro hit in NPL be enough for MLB ballparks? Ichiro isnt exactly a slouch in that department either. but these count as hits. 3. OVERALL PLAY. Lets face it, MLB players are just tougher all around, nastier, far more aggressive. There would be no time wasted in brushing back Ichiro during those days and he would be plunked far more than once during Rose's era. I will say it would be close. But i would like to think that Rose would still be the hit king over Ichiro...not by much, but Pete Rose would be... IMHO. unless Rose bet against the team he was playing for (unless i missed something) that would be the ONLY reason he shouldnt be in the HALL OF FAME...i mean MLB let Stet Trout back in after SEVEN drug violations and I mean the Steroid era? All Mr Rose did was waste his money.
Its extremely likely that most Japanese pitchers cannot pitch at the same speed that the US pitches at. The players for one are not as tall and so much of pitching is arm length for better leverage.
WTF? Pete Rose is the best game day MLB hitter . End of Story! The Big Red Machine was a beast in the 70's Pete Rose was a big part of it! This if? Shit CMTFU! If a donkey had a square butt hole? It would crap bricks 🧱! IF?
That's completely unsupportable. MLB has had plenty of phenoms with fewer credentials than Ichiro hit over .300 early in their career. Just off the top of my head, Tony Gwynn, Frank Thomas, and Joe Mauer come to mind. George Brett, Miguel Cabrera, Paul Molitor also come to mind. By age 22, these guys were CRUSHING MLB pitching.
@@PrometheanConsulting nonsense comparisons. Miggy and Big Hurt were massive hitters who homered. No one except Ted Williams had Tony Gwynns batting eye
@@sgtgeneweenieThat's just another dumb argument. What defines a "massive hitter" and how is Ichiro NOT a "massive hitter? Because he didn't bomb?! We're talking about batting average (contact) not slugging and I'm saying there are maybe half a dozen hitters EVERY YEAR who hit .300 their first full year and a NON-ZERO percentage of them sustain it... guys like the ones I came up with. How about Luis Arraez? Wade Boggs? Todd Helton? Manny Ramirez? Derek Jeter? Mike Piazza? I've just given you A LOT of examples... how can you singularly say that Ichiro would NOT have been one of those guys?! He demonstrated AT THE BIG LEAGUE LEVEL that he was a better contact hitter than ANY of them. You just don't like his style of play, his race, or maybe his team. There's simply no other credible argument for your hate.
Imagine getting this^^^^ mad because I pointed out Ichiro was unlikely to average .325 for his first 7 seasons. Btw, Rod Carew first 5 years .309BA Kirby Puckett .320BA stop being a jerk online and go to bed@@PrometheanConsulting
@@sgtgeneweenie Imagine being so insecure that you not only had to walk back a DEFINITIVE statement that Ichiro WOULD NOT have hit .325 over his first 7 seasons in the majors (discounting the first 2 per the video's premise) and suggesting that it was "super generous" to think he'd average .300 BUT you ALSO had to gaslight the person to protect your own ego.
Ichiro was great for his time but he wouldn’t make the majors today because of evolution. Baseball players today have way stronger evolutions inside their bodies so they’re way better than Ichiro.
Great video. I am curious if you factored in the '94 baseball strike in terms of hits. Mariners played 112 games in 1994; when the strike ended in '95, M's played 145 games, so -67 games which prob wouldn't have been a big deal. Assuming an average of 4 at-bats per game, Ichiro would've lost 275 at-bats from the strike, times by your estimated batting average of .325 and that would mean 89 fewer hits (89.375). So his hit total would be 4,295 hits.
Wow! I had somehow overlooked this. You should not have told me, as now I have a strong urge to go redo the entire video. 😂
@@Hezzy_Baseball Haha I'm sorry. I always try to forget '94 due to the ugliness of the strike personally.
@@Hezzy_Baseball looking at the strike year it would've been very close
To be fair to Rose, he also played in a few strike shortened seasons such as 1981
@@volodymyrzablotsky5372 So there were two strikes that led to cancelled games during Pete Rose's career: 1972 and 1981. In 1972, Pete missed 8 games due to the strike. That season he had 198 hits, or an average of 1.29 hits per game. So he would have 10 additional hits assuming he played all 162. In 1981 he missed 55 games playing for the Phillies and had 140 hits that season, or 1.31 hits per game. That factors to 72 additional hits. Pete played in every game so we can safely assume he would of played all 162. So basically Pete could've had 82 more hits assuming his average hits per game during those seasons. So give Pete 4338 career hits.
Another factor, besides the decreased number of seasonal games he played in Japan, is that Ichiro batted leadoff in MLB - which provided more opportunities to add to his raw hit totals. His batting average in Nippon Baseball was much higher, but he actually averaged more hits per game in MLB than he did in Japan. Batting leadoff is the main factor in this. In his Nippon career, Ichiro had 1278 hits in 951 games. This average of 1.3438 hits per game would amount to 218 hits in a 162 season. But in his first ten MLB seasons, Ichiro had 2244 hits in 1588 games. This average of 1.413 hits per games would jump to 229 hits in 162 games. His batting average was 20 points lower in the majors but his hits per game was measurably higher due to batting leadoff.
You say that he's batting leadoff because he's fast. And how many hits did he beat out in the infield! If a 3rs baseman bobbled just a bit, he gets to first.
Love the sabermetrics people!!!!
Anyone for a Bill James HOF?
"His batting average in Nippon Baseball was much higher, but he actually averaged more hits per game in MLB than he did in Japan." This is factually inaccurate. He had 3089 MLB hits in 2653 games which is 1.16 hits/game. Where in Japan he had 1278 in 951 in 1.34 games. If you want to cherry pick data, and only count his first ten MLB seasons then that statement should reflect it. That statement is an unconditional more hits per game in JPPL, which is factually inaccurate.
Where did Pete Rose bat the lineup.............. thanks we needed that
Pete Rose batted lead off two thirds of a little more than 14000at bat's so roughly around 9400 at bat's Ichiro had a little less than 10000 at bat's to be honest We are splitting hairs I'd love to have both of them on my team
Awesome video!!
If Ichiro had joined the Seattle Mariners to play in the Kingdome in 1994 or 95, could you imagine the sort of monster batting lineup they'd have if they added him to a group that already included A-Rod, Ken Griffey Jr, Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner, Joey Cora - just to name a few? Nobody would dare want to walk Ichiro if there was the threat of A-Rod, Griffey and Edgar Martinez behind him. Also, think about how fast a young Ichiro would be, stealing bases and driving pitchers crazy while they had to pitch to those guys?
And also think of how much better those Mariners teams would have been defensively with Ichiro in right instead of Jay Buhner, and Griffey in center?
Pretty hard to walk Ichiro under any circumstances, but imagine this in '96:
RF - Ichiro (???/???/.???)
SS - Alex Rodriguez (.358/.414/.631 - 9.4 bWAR)
CF - Ken Griffey, Jr. (.303/.392/.628 - 9.7 bWAR))
DH - Edgar Martinez (.327/.464/.595 - 6.5 bWAR)
LF - Jay Buhner (.271/.369/.557 - 3.5 bWAR)
1B - Paul Sorrento (.289/.370/.507 - 1.1 bWAR)
3B - Doug Strange (.235/.290/.333 - -0.1 bWAR))
C - Dan Wilson (.285/.330/.444 - 3.4 bWAR)
2B - Joey Cora (.291/.340/.417 - 1.0 bWAR)
4 HOF caliber players at the top of the lineup. Career years from Buhner, Wilson, and Sorrento. A very productive year for Cora.
Ichiro likely plays left field in this scenario, as Buhner was an all star-caliber talent and fan favorite who was entrenched in right.
David Ortiz was actually in their system at that time too... Imagine that ;)
Ooooooooooo, can't wait til sabermetrics and AI get together, just put together the all time dream team!!!!
Rickey Henderson Cf
Tony Gwynn Rf
Gary Sheffield lf
Fred McGriff 1b
Ken Caminiti 3b
Roberto Alomar 2b
Benito Santiago C
Ozzie Smith SS
Gaylord Perry P
My all time San Diego Padres (positions mixed a bit career vs. when played here and stuff)
That puts a little different spin on the 2001 season for the Mariners then, oh wait.....
The true crux of this argument is that Ichiro may have been the last great player that *could have* passed Rose had he played his whole career in MLB. No one else is even close.
Much love for Ichiro, one of my personal favorites, but Rose's record stands, and likely will for a long long time.
It shouldn't. His stats should be wiped from the record books from whatever game they have evidence he first bet on. In all actuality, he was probably betting on baseball before he got the call up, so none of his hits should count. Ichiro wins again.
@@thejoshpreslethat’s easily the most stupid thing i’ve ever heard regarding rose’s record
@@thejoshpresle Pete and others have publicly stated that Rose only bet on the Reds when he thought they would win. He never bet on them to lose. So according to you Rose's betting on the Reds to WIN negates the batting he did in the game? That's a far stretch! Should Bonds, Conseco, Strawberry, McGuire... and all those other coked out/steroid users lose all the records they earned?
Pete's records are incredible... He deserves his place in the BHoF
@@thejoshpresle That's right - WHINE it out loud for all to hear. 😎
This video needs considerably more views
This is awesome! Thanks for putting in the work :)
The era in which the two played is important as well. While there were some hard throwers in Rose’s era, from an all-up average, the average MLB fastball was in the upper mid to high 80s. In Ichiro’s era, the average fastball was 91-93. In addition, Ichiro’s era is a more specialized game in terms of pitching. Long, middle, short relievers and closers. It was not uncommon to see Ichiro face multiple pitchers in a game, fresher arms and different styles and pitches. Rose’s era was not nearly as specialized. Starters were expected to pitch deep into games. Rose would have a chance to see the same pitcher 3 or more times in a game. Make adjustments and as the game wore on, the pitcher’s arm gets a little more tired. Pitching has evolved since the 60s, 70s and 80s where velocity has increased along with spin rates on breaking stuff. In my opinion, Ichiro would have had an easier time to hit in Rose’s era and Rose would find it more difficult if he played in the 2000s
I always say the eras in which they play(ed) in also helps. Only because it may have made some difference but it might have evened up in another way. Rose started his career when there were only 20 teams in baseball but played with no interleague ever, all the while only batting in the NL. He never really faced the AL great pitchers unless they were traded to NL (ie: Ryan) or an all star game. Ichiro always played interleague. Also Rose played against only 9 or 11 teams his whole career so he faced the NL's best more often. But this discussion can be pulled in many directions by one thread!!
@@bdog1323 I didn't know they didn't have interleague play until 1997 (had to look it up) that is so interesting. I thought interleague play had most likely been around since the 1970s or 1980s. That is crazy to think in the 70s and 80s you could go your whole career and not face someone in a regular season game. I think a no interleague format (while worse overall) does make the world series a little more exciting though.
In your opinion is right. Ichiro didn't face as many HOF legends as Rose, and Rose held his own against them, and then some! In my opinion, Rose IS the Hit King, and all the Star Trek mumbo-jumbo fantasy land suppositions won't change that anymore than Rose's own dumb choices cost him a ton of respect and high regard today.
Those mid to high 80mph fastballs in Rose's era would be low to mid 90's if measured with same technology they have now.
@@Truth-s9mRose also played his first 5 seasons with the pitcher's mound higher than it is in today's game.
Wow man, it's always a great feeling finding a small channel with such a high production quality and level of analysis! Nice job. One of the things I like about these types of questions is that there is never going to be a satisfying, objective answer, but in the end you can still come out with a greater appreciation for the level of skill and consistency required to even be in the running.
Personally, I revered Ichiro as a kid (and still do! As an Asian kid growing up a Mariners fan, he is my favorite player of all time). That being said, I feel as though Pete Rose is the all-time hit king, given the unarguable fact that he did actually achieve all of these hits in the MLB. Once the question is reframed in terms of "hypothetical" hits, the value of the record loses meaning a little, in my opinion. However, I also feel like there were WAY too many detractors of Ichiro's accomplishments in the NPB. I believe that this mentality is changing nowadays, but there seemed to be a common conception amongst the baseball elitists in the US that no international baseball was worth watching or appreciating.
How about a compromise? We can decide that Pete Rose and Ichiro are, together, the two greatest contact hitters of all time.
Thanks! I’m just trying to get a little bit better with each video. I’ve been encouraged with the responses on this one.
1960's batting averages were historically low until MLB lowered the mound in 1969. Rose would have gotten more hits earlier in his career with a lowered pitching mound.
You make better content than your sub count suggests :) Big things will come for you if you keep it up!
What if Warren Moon played his entire career in the NFL?
A lot of people forget he started off in Canada
You deserve more views man great video and analysis
Nice video! Keep it up and you’ll keep getting better
Thanks! Just trying to make small improvements with each video.
I think you should taken MLB’s average AB’s a game on those converted years but loved the video nice work!
So that makes him the all time All-World Hitting King in my book
+ all universe
Ichiro? No - Rose has more, with his Minor League hits added. Ichiros don't count anymore in the USA/ MLB than Oh's Home Runs, no matter how much you want to make it so... 😎
I wish this was longer great video so interesting
Great video. I like how it is in our universe. We get two hit kings.
Great video... keep it up... buuuut... counting Ichiro's 20-21 age seasons assuming he'd get called up in an alternate universe even though he only had 36 career hits age 18-19 is still a huge assumption as Rose was kept down until age 22 even though he had 89 hits age 18-19 and 330 hits age 20-21. If you assume Rose makes the majors at the same age as Ichiro, it's not that clear cut.
Rose's hit prowess somewhat gets underestimated. It took Ichiro age 27-42 to reach 3,000 hits and he got 3,030 hits in those seasons. From age 27-42, Rose got 3,091 hits.
I agree with you, I think people get way too high about the Ichiro beating Rose's number of hits stuff. There are some conceivable universes where if he was born and raised in the USA it happens. However, I think in most conceivable universes Rose is still the all time hit King. The other thing to keep in mind, is the only reason Ichiro has any shot in the first place is because his walk rate is so low.
That is the BEST counter-argument I've heard.
I still don't agree that any methodology used is going to be conclusive, though. Adjusting for variations in competitive level and era is always going to be VERY speculative and the best approach is going to be comparing EACH against the league averages; not the totals. Which doesn't serve the Hit King argument at all.
Ichiro didn't have to face Ryan, Seaver, Koufax, Gibson, Spahn, etc...Pete did...Lots of fun these discussions!
I actually support Rose in this debate, but to act like those pitchers were somehow uniquely elite while guys like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Justin Verlander, Zach Greinke, etc are irrelevant, is disingenuous. There were plenty of elite pitchers in Ichiro's time in MLB as well.
Interesting. But could we have just added Pete Rose's minor league hits and see how that compares to Ichiro's NPB + MLB hits.
I remember Pete Rose complaining that his minor league hits didn't count so Ichiro's NPB hits shouldn't count either.
There is also the likelihood he hits below .300 these things are excellent to discuss and what make sports great. Yes im biased. I went to same highschool rose did.
Great video and an interesting thought experiment. Subbed
Well done video sir.
and he did it in the steroid era
Which was an era of greater offense, Pete Rose played in a pitcher friendly era.
@@FuckTH-camAndGoogle my guy pitchers used em too, clearly ichiro didnt is my point.
Which means what exactly?
Ichihiro used steroids.
2001+ was not the steroid era
Dude. This is good.
Thanks! I put a lot of time into this one.
You did not add in Rose's minor league hits ..so if you count ichiro's Japan hits Rose will still have more.. let it go dude
@@stephenmccabe4179 Ichiro wasn’t playing in a minor league.
Excellent content. Thanks man! Liked and subbed
Thanks! I’m glad to see some people enjoying it. Lets me know I’m not wasting my time putting these together. 😂
Ichiro is an amazing player and one of the best of his generation.
But...
American players that can't make it in the US rake in the NPB regularly. Guys that are at the end of their career extend it by playing in Japan.
Five of the top 31 players recording hits for 2022 are former prospects/MLB players Dayan Viciedo (career .254 hitter in 5 mlb seasons), Jose Osuna (.241 in 4 seasons), Ryan McBroom (.261 in 3 seasons), Gregory Polanco (.241 in 8 seasons) and Neftali Soto (.071 in 2 seasons).
In 1994, his first full year in the NPB, Ichiro hit .385 in 130 games. He lead the league. However, in the Japan Pacific League, 12 players hit over .300 with (10 hit over .315, 3 hit over .348). Considering there are exactly 6 teams in the Japan Pacific League with 25 players, and only 15 of those are position players, that means that almost 15 percent of the league hit .300 or better.
So, let's not pretend that the NPB is even comparable to the MLB for getting hits.
Ichiro had a career .311 batting average. Claiming he'd hit .325 in the early part of his career when very few young hitters do better at the very beginning of their career is pure speculation.
Also, Ichiro realistically probably doesn't make the majors until age 22 to 24 as well considering he didn't do well in his first couple of years. You're neglecting the fact that the vast majority of teams don't like starting the clock on their young players, and with Ichiro not hitting for power, it's far less likely he gets called up early. Starting him in the MLB at age 20 when he didn't do well in the NPB the first two years is ridiculous.
"Many will say, 'sure, Ichiro had more professional hits..." except that he didn't. Rose had more hits as a professional (4,683).
Thanks awesome video!
decent forecast of alternate universe. mine is better. ie if you are saying Ichiro was in MLB for his 20 and 21 age seasons, then you must add Rose's 20 and 21 age seasons from the minors.
Love your videos! ❤️
Any chance we can get you to do A) Sadaharu Oh with home runs, B) Ted Williams, all major categories and C) Babe Ruth...if he had stayed a pitcher, or had always been a hitter?
u deserve more views
Dope video bro
nice vid man
At age 20, Ichiro set the Japanese record for batting average and hits in a season. At age 20, Pete Rose was doing well in the Class D minor leagues. Rose argued that if Ichiro's Japanese-league hits should count, then his minor-league hits should count. It's not the same. Mind you, class D baseball is absolutely valid, awesome baseball, but come on, get real. Ichiro was simply better at compiling hits than probably anyone who ever played. All-time great glove, arm, and wheels, too.
Nothing was better than watching Charlie Hustle slide headfirst into 3rd, plus he could play at about any position. Ichiro was an outfielder his entire professional career.
As for no one has ever been better at collecting hits.. Ted Williams fans might have a few words with you on that.. Ty Cobb's fan's would as well.
There was a time when the professionals played in a manner in what was considered dirty in today's era.. Cobb was the best at that.. He would spike you on purpose. One thing that always bothered me about Cobb though was that he was labeled a racist. He wasn't.
I think in most conceivable universes Pete Rose would still be the MLB hits king even if Ichiro was born in the USA, and grew up here. Another thing that is not often talked about it Pete Rose had 4256 hits and 1566 walks. Ichiro had 3089 hits and only 647walks. Even in the few universes where Ichiro manages to beat out Pete Rose as the hit king I don't think he could ever beat him in hits+walks.
What a lot of BS if you think the pitching he faced in Japan was close to mlb your nuts
fair give and take, nice video
I wonder how Josh Gibson would have done in the majors.
The legendｓ
If this and if that and how bout etc, etc etc. The truth is Rose faced better pitching in his days than ichiro did In his days. The other factor is,,,nobody knows and who cares, Rose is the hit king,,,period!
If Ichiro played in the MLB his whole career I'm confident that the record would have been enough motivation for him to stay healthy, work hard, and have even more longevity. Even if he was no longer valuable to a top winning team there would still be some team who would take him. And we're talking about hits, not HR or SB where age really might hinder production.
i love this video
..and if Barry Bonds played his career in Japan he’d have 1000+ home runs. And if….
I guess that depends on the amount of Steroids he could get in Japan
You do have to wonder, however, if Ichiro had played the entire time in the states, if some idiot would have tried to coach him out of his hitting style because he wants more home runs.
While are we still talking about this? Yea he probably could've, but it didn't happen. Doesn't affect his greatness. I swear some people are just butt hurt that the record belongs to an American ball player. Let it go
Whole generations of nerds raised on Japanese cartoons. They swoon over all things Asian.
And if Jordan didn't retire twice we wouldn't question if he was the goat either but he did so we do. Ichiro didn't get all of his hits in the only league that matters (MLB) so Pete is the goat likely till the end of time. #BigRedMachine
Up vote for the Big Red Machine reference!
Ichiro #1 in our hearts
Yours maybe... Rose and the Big Red Machine of the 70's is in mine.
What if Rose played his entire career in Japan? Besides there being alot of little Petes running around...
Remember that Rose also played his first decade through one of the most pitcher-dominant eras since the dead ball.
That sounds like the lamest excuse I've ever heard. 😂
@@ryugarai2668 It’s not an excuse, just a contextual observation.
@@lordofthemound3890 When it comes to hitting they're neck and neck but Ichiro was still better of course but overall baseball player, it wasn't even close. Ichiro won 10 Gold Glove awards while Rose only had 2, Ichiro has stolen much more bases than Rose. So yeah, Ichiro all day!
Nice vid
Thanks!
Rose is the best all around hitter. If rose played in Japan he'd have a lot more
Ichiro is easily one of the most underrated players in baseball history. Elite contact hitter, elite baserunner and elite defensively. His only "flaw" was his lack of power
Except that he did actually have plenty of power, he personally didn't like to utilize it as base hits are generally more useful than Home runs, His team mates through the years said that during Batting Practice he'd always crush homers into the upper decks of stadiums. There were a couple years were Ichiro was playing in Japan and his coach asked him personally to hit for more power, and he crankedout 30 homers that season.
There's another way to look at this just count Rose's minor league hits he still wins
Can we get Ruth back his HR crown in this alternate universe? Didn't he play entirely in the 154 games per season era? Hmm... nope, that only gets us to 751. Aaron still edges him out by 4, but it's a nail biter.
Of course, since we live in the worst possible universe I'm assuming this other universe is the 'good' universe, so they would have busted Barry for steroids before he even got to the 700 club, and Aaron would still be king. Pujols would be just the 3rd member of the club.
Of course, maybe in the alternate universe we had a truly international league and Oh gets to bring his home runs over (smaller parks over there, but fewer games). And Josh Gibson would be in there too, adjusted for games played and competition level.
Good video. Could Ichiro have had more career hits? I would say, yes, his chance of that happening was very good. Until then, Pete remains king as far as most hits go. As far as the art of hitting, neither of these two players can touch Tony Gwynn and its not even close.
Or Ted Williams who Tony looked up to for his hitting. At 38 Williams batted .380.
While I love and respect Tony Gwynn, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Ichiro had more potential and talent than most people knew about. He could pin point his hits if he wanted too.
We can also ask if Cal Ripken Jr became the all time baseball iron man when he passed Lou Gehrig in 1995 or Sachio Kinugase in 1996.
Ichiro and Pete were both workhorses. Ichiro all around though is the greatest baseball player that ever lived. You could win a world series with an Ichiro at all 9 positions.
Who's gonna pitch and who's gonna catch? Rose excelled at multiple positions.. Ichiro played outfield. Outfield is not considered a skill position on defense.
There was only one Charlie Hustle...and his name was not Ichiro.
He would have come close and but he did slow up in his very late 30s while rose had a few more solid years. However if he broke 4000 I'm sure he might have stuck around to break it. Could use the argument that if you count his Japanese number you have to count Rose's minor league hits too. Either way both were hitting machines and fantastic ballplayers and fun as hell to watch.
If frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their butts if when they jumped….but that’s in fantasy. In reality they don’t and in reality Rose is still the All Time MLB hit king.😂
Cobb still had a higher batting average then both. Between Rose and Ichiro I would take Ichiro.
I'd take Rose.
One thing MLB played about 112 games in 1994, and 144 games in 1995. That's about 70 games. So, he have to subtract about 95 hits from the total. So, he ends up with 4289 with his .325 average Still a record
you should do a video about erubiel durazo
There's only ONE PETE ROSE 🌹.
Don’t forget Ichiro is pure class while Pete…. Well, Pete is Pete 🙄
You are so right
Like hell he is. Pete may be a west Cincinnati hillbilly but no one in the history of the league of anyone close to Pete’s accomplishments showed the respect to the fans like Pete did with his constant hustle and relentless effort.
If you can’t handle that Pete played in the MLB and not the cheese and wine snob league that’s your problem.
Y’all must be using that special math stuff by counting Ichiro’s Japanese league hits and not Pete’s minor league hits and the reality is Japanese professional baseball is about the same level as division two minor league ball.
Let’s not forget Pete played in 5 World Series, won three, to Ichirō’s 0.
So how about giving the real hits King some respect.
@@Mottleydude1 you're right we should give Ichiro more respect as the true hit king.
@@Mottleydude1 Agreed Rose always showed great respect and appreciation for the fans. But obviously little to no respect for the game itself.
@@tabathasheffroth7981 that he is indeed guilty of. I was working in Franklin, OH when that went down and used to go to Ron Peters Sports Bar for lunch often and I knew then Peters was pond scum, dealt in drugs and was believed to have Mob connections so when I heard Pete was hanging out with him I was like WTF?!
Ichiro is the best all-around baseball player there’s ever been
@Adam Johnson Didn't realize "baseball greatness personified" came with zero rings and a career .245 postseason batting average.
@Adam Johnson That's a lot of words to not address how "baseball greatness personified" only hit over .261 in one postseason in his career. Wonder if he had a little, ahem, "help" in 2002 when he *finally* played like a star. Furthermore, who is saying that Ichiro was better than chemically enhanced Barry? Certainly not me. And I'm not sure what I wrote that led you to accuse me of being an eye test guy, my dude. That said, if you'd prefer more modern analytics (while also celebrating a star pitcher), then let's give Ruth the title as greatest ever. He easily surpasses your boyhood hero in WAR and OPS+. Oh, and in the future, it's "RBI" not "RBIs," sport.
Really? How many positions did Ichiro play? Wasn't it just the outfield? Doesn't sound all-around to me. Rose could play about any position with skill. He could also switch hit. Ichiro only batted left handed.
Hell if you want to consider someone as best all-around baseball player you have to consider Babe Ruth.. who was an excellent pitcher when he broke into the majors and only stopped pitching because his coach in Boston wouldn't let him pitch because of his batting.
Is there some sort of way we could calculate how many homeruns Sadaharu Oh would’ve hit in the mlb?
Possibly by using field dimensions?
@@Gemnist98 I’m saying like how he calculated ichiro’s hits in this videos. Sadaharu Oh didn’t play in the mlb so that’s why I’m unsure
@@orangeflaws8088 I think that's what gemnist is getting at, Japanese BB stadium are smaller than MLB. I don't know it it's 5% or 10% or what.
How many would Ruth have hit in Japan, works both ways.
There’s also quality of pitching. Apparently, Sadaharu Oh couldn’t hit a sinker when some MLB players visited Japan for an exhibition. Granted, if he was in MLB full time he may have been able to figure it out.
What if Ucguri did? What if Ted Williams had not lost 5 years to Military Service? What if Ruth and Gerig had not played in a stadium with a short porch in right field? Williams was so much better than everyone else, no comparison.
There's no doubt with his Rose-like durability that he'd be the Hit King.
I think Ichiro would've gotten the hits record if he played in the MLB for 24 seasons, but adding his NPB hits to his MLB hits and calling him the professional baseball hits king is silly. You might as well add Rose's minor league hits at that point.
Then you would have to add Ichiro's before he made it to the big leagues in Japan. This is a flawed take that is always used mostly by ignorant Racists .
@Melted nostrils Born without nostrils if you added Ichiro's NPB and MLB hits, you get a smaller total than Rose's MLB and MiLB hits. That's the point, you can't just cherry pick which professional league hits to count. I mean, nobody credible compares Sadaharu Oh's home run total to Hank Aaron's.
Edit: Ichiro's professional career started with Orix Blue Wave, so all his pro hits are with NPB and MLB.
@@mrmacross I just said you would have to count Ichiro's hits in Japan before he got to their Major league, and you repeat the same fallacy LMAO . And of course you make a false equivalency About Oh . Oh never came to the MLB and proved he could dominate, let alone set the all time single season Home Run Record, or record for Home Runs his first Ten years like Ichiro did with hits. Obviously anyone who would make that false equivalency is either prejudiced and dishonest, or has no IQ. You sound like both.
@@mrmacross I see you had to go back and edited your comment, but didn't respond like the coward you are. You don't count minor league hits LMAO . NPB, isn't a minor league, Ichiro was playing at the highest league possible he could have from where he was born. It's a Major League. The bottom line is Ichiro has more hits in his life than Rose, if you want to take it back to little league LMAO.
@@meltednostrilsbornwithoutn781 First off... You're an idiot for calling people racist when you don't know the reason they think the way they do. You assume way to much!
So tell us why players leave the MLB at the end of their career and find continued or even greater success in Japan? it's because of the level of play.. race has nothing to do with it. The level of play is just not as good over there. I'm not saying it's bad.. it's just somewhere between Triple A and the Majors.. but it's not the majors.
Also Ichiro started in the NPB at the age of 18. He didn't start on a "minor" league team, so he has no minor league stats. Again Rose wins either way.. If you count Ichiro's NPB stats along with his MLB stats then you have to include Rose's minor league stats... Without the NPB, Rose wins.. If you count the NPB and Rose's time in the minors, Rose still wins.
Did you factor in the MLB games lost in '94-95 due to the strike/ lockout? Not a whole lot when working these numbers but a little anyway.
We saw Ichrico at peak of career if starter MLB watch number put up. ?
The 1994 season was shortened by the player's strike
What happens if you count pete rose’s hits in his minor league 20 and 22 seasons as the competition was similar?
Ichiro from the left side batters box...
I think he would have passed Pete. Plus, if he was close, he may have played a little longer to get the record.
Dude never seemed to miss time. Stretched the whole game to stay loose.
I agree with your conclusion but not with your methodology.
The error lies really with how the LEAGUE performed during those years that you're plugging Ichiro into. What you should probably be doing is comparing how well he performed above the league average and plug that into MLB's seasons. That would account better for live ball and dead ball years.
I have NO PROBLEM with arguing that Ichiro would have achieved 4300+ hits in MLB. He might have even improved faster with better competition and coaching at an earlier year. Certainly, his trash talking would have been unparalleled.
Good analysis. Now compare their gambling earnings.....
Playing "what if" is absurd. If Stan Musial would have started in MLB at age 17, and played to 50, HE would be the all time hit leader.
Anyone who knows a lick about baseball knows that even though the dude could hit there was no question that Pete rose was by far the better player
Yah he would have close to 5000. What did he have in Japan as well as in the states?
Ichiro would have had 5000 hits in MLB if he'd played his first 9 seasons in MLB. Rose couldn't have carried Ichiro's jockstrap in any aspect of the game.
Yeah and Rose would probably have 6000 hits if he played over in Japan. It's not the same league... and they don't have the same level of talent.
@@rodshoaf Your response doesn't refute my proposition: to wit, that Ichiro would have had 5000 hits had he played his full career in MLB, and that Ichiro was a superior ballplayer than Rose in every aspect of baseball -- hitting overall, hitting for power, hitting for average, fielding, throwing, and baserunning. Even if Rose could have had 6000 hits in Japanese baseball, it wouldn't have made him better than Rose as a baseball player. Rose was a fine player, but Ichiro was better. End of argument.
@@Whitegorillaboy oh please Ichiro had 1400 less hits than Rose.. 43 less homeruns.. over 500 less RBI.. Ichiro played in the NPB.. a AAA league compared to MLB.
Where is Ichiro on the all time leader list for hits? Why he's standing at number 25... Rose is number 1
As for hitting with power.. again Ichiro far less runs batted in... far less homeruns.. far less in about every stat except stolen bases.
Ichiro only played outfield.. Rose played EVERY position except shortstop, catcher and pitcher. So Ichiro was not a better overall baseball player. That goes to Rose.
In fact contrary to what the poster of this video claims.. Pitching WAS better during the entire time of Pete Rose's career.. not once from 1963 to 1986 did the leagues pitching ERA go over 4.00... Yet during Ichiro's career.. ERA was only under 4.00 4 times. The game today is geared towards hitting... the balls are harder and they bounce more as the cores are made of hard rubber instead of the cork they used to be made from... and it makes it easier to get a hit as a result. THIS IS A FACT!
What if Ichiro played his entire career with corked bat?
It's been proven over and over again that corking a bat does not help with hitting. The only thing it might do is give a little more bat speed, but it's been proven negligible on that point.
@@SparJar Do you want to bet?
@@SparJar corking adds about 10mph to exit velo, the tests done on corked bats weren't done in the manner needed to actually cork a bat.
@@gobomanaga5615 source? I'd like to read up on that.
@@SparJar baseball bat bros did a video "corking the bat the right way"
WROOOOOOONG! Add in Pete Rose's minor league stats for age 20 and 21 and Pete walks off with a win at 4594 hits. Sorry dude you lose!
Nah. Once you factor in that Pete Rose should have been disqualified from the moment he placed his first bet, none of his MLB hits should count.
@@thejoshpresle Why? How did him gambling help him hit a baseball? If, in fact, he bet against his teams, you'd assume it would only lower his total.
@@Mike-hv6fn And it's well documented he only bet on his teams to win.
Ichiro better fielder and better base runner. Better teammate and better person
Not as good at winning championships, though.
Better fielder? Ichiro spent his entire career in the outfield. Outfield is considered a lower skill position than infield. Rose played every position on the diamond except for pitcher, catcher, and shortstop.
Better baserunner? Sorry I disagree.. Nothing beat watching Charlie Hustle slide head first into third. I'll fight you on that!
Better Teammate? Say that to the Big Red Machine of the 70s!
Better person? Do you know either of them personally? I doubt you do!
This is a very cool exercise. The different arguments are compelling for both sides. The one thing that has nothing to do with this, but colors my view is Rose's attitude and complete dismissal of this fun debate and Ichiro's ability. But what do you expect from a philanderer, tax cheat and degenerate gambler.
"global hit king"? i think you should add pete roses' minor leagues hits in then. everything after high school.
The other problem is Ichiro wont have started playing in the major at 18 either.
Rose made this argument himself, but what about his 3 years of AAA? Obviously, these two can't be compared apples to apples.
Ifa coulda shoulda woulda
BALONEY - Yeah, keep IGNORING Rose's Minor League Hits, and thanks for the Star Trek/ Super Hero alternate universe line - Tons of desperation and not an ounce of reality.
I would LOVE to see an Ichiro today, and I miss fine .300 hitters in today's -YAWN - MLB. Rose, however is The Hit King, MLB & Otherwise.
Ichiro couldn't even buy a hit his last couple of years.
this is a nice conclusion on its surface. I would have liked to see a couple of other factors in play..
1. PITCHING. it would be safe to assume that MLB pitchers threw harder and faster than their Japanese counterparts. how would Ichiro face off against Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux? Who would be the Japanese counterparts to these pitching greats?
2. PARK DIMENSIONS. Japanese parks are by average, smaller in playable dimensions than MLB parks. especially in Pete Rose's day where half of the stadiums were built from a cookie cutter template (you know im right) would some of the home runs Ichiro hit in NPL be enough for MLB ballparks? Ichiro isnt exactly a slouch in that department either. but these count as hits.
3. OVERALL PLAY. Lets face it, MLB players are just tougher all around, nastier, far more aggressive. There would be no time wasted in brushing back Ichiro during those days and he would be plunked far more than once during Rose's era.
I will say it would be close. But i would like to think that Rose would still be the hit king over Ichiro...not by much, but Pete Rose would be...
IMHO. unless Rose bet against the team he was playing for (unless i missed something) that would be the ONLY reason he shouldnt be in the HALL OF FAME...i mean MLB let Stet Trout back in after SEVEN drug violations and I mean the Steroid era? All Mr Rose did was waste his money.
Its extremely likely that most Japanese pitchers cannot pitch at the same speed that the US pitches at. The players for one are not as tall and so much of pitching is arm length for better leverage.
I’m telling you he would have been the first to 4500 hits at least if he started at 18
Good God. If you're going to add Ichiro's japanese hits, then you need to add ALL of Pete Rose's minor league hits, that would take him to over 4700.
What if Rose played his entire career in Japan?
WTF? Pete Rose is the best game day MLB hitter . End of Story! The Big Red Machine was a beast in the 70's Pete Rose was a big part of it! This if? Shit CMTFU! If a donkey had a square butt hole? It would crap bricks 🧱! IF?
Ichiro is an all-time great but young Ichiro facing MLB pitchers would not hit .325 he'd have struggles and the lower range of .300 is super generous
That's completely unsupportable. MLB has had plenty of phenoms with fewer credentials than Ichiro hit over .300 early in their career. Just off the top of my head, Tony Gwynn, Frank Thomas, and Joe Mauer come to mind. George Brett, Miguel Cabrera, Paul Molitor also come to mind.
By age 22, these guys were CRUSHING MLB pitching.
@@PrometheanConsulting nonsense comparisons. Miggy and Big Hurt were massive hitters who homered. No one except Ted Williams had Tony Gwynns batting eye
@@sgtgeneweenieThat's just another dumb argument. What defines a "massive hitter" and how is Ichiro NOT a "massive hitter? Because he didn't bomb?! We're talking about batting average (contact) not slugging and I'm saying there are maybe half a dozen hitters EVERY YEAR who hit .300 their first full year and a NON-ZERO percentage of them sustain it... guys like the ones I came up with.
How about Luis Arraez? Wade Boggs? Todd Helton? Manny Ramirez? Derek Jeter? Mike Piazza?
I've just given you A LOT of examples... how can you singularly say that Ichiro would NOT have been one of those guys?! He demonstrated AT THE BIG LEAGUE LEVEL that he was a better contact hitter than ANY of them.
You just don't like his style of play, his race, or maybe his team. There's simply no other credible argument for your hate.
Imagine getting this^^^^ mad because I pointed out Ichiro was unlikely to average .325 for his first 7 seasons. Btw, Rod Carew first 5 years .309BA Kirby Puckett .320BA stop being a jerk online and go to bed@@PrometheanConsulting
@@sgtgeneweenie Imagine being so insecure that you not only had to walk back a DEFINITIVE statement that Ichiro WOULD NOT have hit .325 over his first 7 seasons in the majors (discounting the first 2 per the video's premise) and suggesting that it was "super generous" to think he'd average .300 BUT you ALSO had to gaslight the person to protect your own ego.
Rose was a more valuable hitter than Ichiro and a better leadoff man.
If I remember correctly Pete batted 4th in the lineup for most his career with the Reds.
Ichiro was great for his time but he wouldn’t make the majors today because of evolution. Baseball players today have way stronger evolutions inside their bodies so they’re way better than Ichiro.