Ep. 121 - Let's Talk Load Development
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ส.ค. 2024
- On this episode, Seth is joined by Preston Lentfer and Miles Neville. The discussion starts by reviewing traditional methods of advanced reloading. Many of the techniques and advanced reloading tactics are clouded with myth and dogma. The guys analyze the methods using large sample size testing. The podcast then culminates in a step-by-step load development process. We hope you enjoy this educational episode.
Miles is possibly the best representation of OCD and THE guy that has convinced me to save money and time to have more for components and results. Thank you.
The 6 ARC was mentioned several times in this video, but most people don't know that it is a special case (no pun intended). It has different loadings depending on what type of gun it is used in. It would be helpful to explain that the SAAMI max pressure for the 6 ARC (and 6.5 Grendel) are set relatively low (52,000 psi) for good bolt life with an AR15. It happens that this is too low to use the traditional "keep adding powder until you see pressure signs" method of load development. I know of a fair number of Grendel shooters who initially go well beyond written max loads, not realizing that they are overpressure for good bolt life.
In a bolt gun, the 6 ARC and 6.5 Grendel can be run at higher pressures. Hornady produces two sets of reloading data for the 6 ARC: the "gas gun" loads are at lower pressures than the "bolt gun" loads.
The most accurate ammo I've ever shot was 223 Remington handloads with Hornady 60 gr V-Max being pushed by 25 grains of Varget. I sized and trimmed all of my cases, uniformed primer pockets and flash holes then weighed them afterwards and then sorted. About 94.5 grains each. Amazing accuracy... like amazing! Since then, I've shot the same load in mixed brass, unsorted brass, etc., and it made no difference at all. I can still hit eggs at 300 yards all day long... Great video guys, keep it up! Still waiting on that 50 BMG podcast...
I think you guys need to get us some load data for 6.8 Western, also would be nice to see some high b.c. bullets for the cartridge.
Have you seen backfires' latest video?
You know FULL WELL that will not happen.
@@JamesClark-lw6sw Doesn't hurt to ask?
Yeah and he is spot on!
Looks like we just got confirmation on the reasons for the low velocities from the factory ammo.
I still say you need to explore the side quest of putting your rifle next to a couple others with the same box or two of ammo.
Would like to hear more discussion surrounding setting neck tension in the reloading process and the possible effects it may or may not have on SD/ES etc. Great episode!
And, Go Big Red…
th-cam.com/video/OMEi5eHTLxQ/w-d-xo.html
t is such a pleasure to listen someone who understands reloading and statistics. Everyone who shoot 3-shot groups and pick a certain (factory or reloading) ammo based on that one group is 0.2" smaller that another should watch that video several times.
I believe a lot of people could really gain knowledge from this by re-watching the video. I was guilty of weighing brass, bullets, and primers. I even weighed arrows fletchings nocks, tips floated them in water for "heavy" side down, you can really get crazy with very little gain
Miles is the best. Effective thinker, he always adds value to help us understand important concepts.
In many ways yes; however, he has a bias against anything older/traditional. That seems to be part of the corporate culture at Hornady.
@@chipsterb4946 They have to stay cutting edge.
@@tylersathern1076 it is possible to appreciate tried and true solutions at the same time you innovate. In fact, it should make you a better innovator.
@chipsterb4946 I think you are correct but in Hornady's defense if they do not stay in the cutting edge circle they will be left behind. But that being said there are some "old" tried and true ways that just plain work.
Propellant ladder testing has a couple of uses not discussed here. One is to find the charge maximum for the particular combination. Number two is to see if there is a combustion change as the charge goes up. If you see that the velocity change per charge increment changes radically as the charge increases, you may have found points where the propellant transitions from erratic to stable to erratic burn rate. Double based propellants show these characteristics changes more often in my experience than single based ones. When I find the series of charge increments that produce a steady velocity change per charge increase, I load within that range. You cannot do this in 1 to 5 shot per increment steps reliably, it takes approx. 10 shots per step to filter out the noise.
all this tested info in your podcasts is appreciated
Everything mentioned in the podcast plus - Consistency in every process - Good note taking - annealing - proper barrel maintenance and more consistency behind the stock all figure into honing a good load development scheme and overall good/efficient shooting experience -
Love these videos. It must be remembered that they are in business however to sell bullets, brass, and reloading equipment.
A lot of useful info in this podcast. I have used a few different load development programs only to discover that the methods were inherently flawed. Would love to have all the wasted money back. Expensive lessons learned. One of the most eye opening lessons was some barrels don't perform well with some bullets. Sometimes its like forcing a square peg into a round hole, unfortunately.
For example: Consider your Subsonic Luger 147 gr XTP round: Cat#90287. What does the factory database look like that allows you to state MV = 975 fps in a 4" bbl? How many rounds tested? What is the extreme spread, standard deviation, average of all the spread velocity measurements. Also what is powder wt. precision, bullet wt. precision, accuracy of MV measurement device, accuracy of brass measurement, etc. Are the components tested just selected at random off of the production line with no rejects?
Some twenty years ago, I purchased a Remington Coast-to-Coast or Sears rifle…yes, a long action 700 .270, the proprietor threw in two boxes of PMC ammunition! My intention was to do a custom 338! Unfortunately, my younger bother heard I purchased such, being tiered with his 30-30 inquired about using such for deer hunting! So, I put a Redfield hunter scope on, so I attempted to sight it in…I went through some twelve plus rounds…the best group was over 4 MOA! My brother then went on to harvest our three deer, with three shots! He, begged me not to do anything with that rifle, so I went through my load regimen. Resize, trim to length, de-bur inside and outside; and de-bur the flash-hole! I wishing towards having a Chronograph, researching numerous published data, I selected Hodgdon H4831SC with CCI 250 large rifle primers, & 130 gr bullets. After such, I reduced the group size to sup-half inch with PMC brass! I’ve continued to monitor the throat erosion via modified case…
My selection towards powder charges was mid-range suggested powder charges, with three shot groups, with three lower and three higher load of two grains intervals, measuring group size. After-wise, doing 1/2 grain intervals! Each was with just three round groups. Then, searching toward bullet jump, shooting above and below of .005” OVL…which brought me towards reducing group size from over 4 MOA to sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards
I have a few preferred barrels and they are doing great for me.
I feel so blessed to have found most of the things they've talked about to be true. Only thing I can say that they didn't talk about was annealing, its a must as a reloader.
I always thought I`m just lazy and measured through achievable expectations on my gun. Thanks, guys, for putting the science behind that!
I’ve got a 26” Krueger barrel chambered in 6mm ARC on my savage 110 tactical. It’s like a laser beam. Currently running 112 Match burners at about 2850 fps with lever evolution.
Nice to hear 2 of you using American Rifle Company receivers.
I was reloading some Fiocchi .45 Colt cases. When I tried to deburr the flash holes I discovered that most of them were visibly off center. With new brass (mostly Starline or Winchester) I find a few cases where the flash hole needs some work, and I have found a couple cases that did not have flash holes (don’t remember that brand).
It doesn’t take long to check the flash holes and you only do it once per case.
Hey Guys. I hope that you might consider chopterizing your longer videos. As much as I would like to watch their whole entirety, I often don't have one two or three hours out of my day to do so. Chapterizing would really help daily efficiency from a watcher point of view. Hoping... Thanks!
Noted!
Thanks guys! Wish you'd have started here then gone through why the other methods don't work lol. It was an emotionally rough couple hours of podcast listening but loaded up 30 rounds of 22-250 for an old B78 with 34.7 grains of Varget to test.
Between my tighter match chamberr 308, valkyrie and 6gt, i just do a 10 shot spread over the top half of the powder charges. Anything within 50fps is where i try to find a +- 1 grain tight velocity node. I start at 0.030 jump. Aftee find go velocity ill play with seating to get tighter groups. Only chafer inside necks, clean in stainless media and shoot until the barrel starts throwing flyers
Just putting it out there. I looooove my 300PRC. Well done Hornady.
This series is confirming some things I have always been suspicious of but I never spent the time and money to research for myself.
I've been developing loads with GRT (Gordons Reloading Tool) Can't recommend GRT highly enough.
If I do my brass prep, take case volume measurements, case length, seating depth, powder temp etc, I'm always within 20-30Ft/sec of the measured value. Once I have the measured velocity values, I can tweak the load & have had very good success with accuracy. So far I've found that the loads I've worked up with GRT have been very accurate to the point where I haven't had to tweak much if any.
I now spend most of my testing on a few 10 shot groups then I simply ensure that POI matches the POA. POI to POA is where it's at. Since we don't shoot groups at anything out in the field accept BR or F Class, it's all about Mean Radius & ensuring it is being utilized as precisely as possible.
Great podcast!
Much appreciated!
Question for Miles…. What do you think is the cause for a powder or projectile or other components to meet your preliminary 10 round test? Something is happening to make that powder or projectile meet the 10 round test.
Wow, here we go....reloading...this could go deep on the process...
Yep! I think wildcatting is about tbe most experimental I've accomplished. Even then it's always the research of others that helped guide me. I wanted to learn one specific case, the Savage 250-3000 case. It's been an amazing experience. I'm tempted to take it one step further if I ever have the opportunity. Most people wouldn't consider a 6.5x250 nor a 7mm x 250 but I'm an unusual duck ever since an old man invited me along to develop precision cartridges in an underground long range rifle tunnel. I learned the perfection of the .222 then developed perfect 223 first. Later, I found disappointment working with the classic weatherby magnum's, Lazaroni, and the 7mm Magnum so I quickly adopted the BR both 6mm and 7mm before going back to the 250-3000 case. Good enough till I have access to a tunnel again.
6 ARC - with a PSA lower and a CMMG Upper 16", Hypertap brake, CMMG mags, Reloads shooting 5 shot groups using the 95 SST, 90 CX, 90 ELDX, 80 CX with LeverEvolution all those loads shoot 0.7" groups. the thing just shoots. this measurement is center of hole to center of hole. the 6 ARC IS AMAZING. Leupold 3HD with the custom dial they have just dial for distance and boom
Thanks Miles. You guys are doing very well!
Thank you too!
I was with you on seating depth/bullet jump with 109ELDM 6mm bullets, those are awesome. But the 80 ELDM in .224 is another story and I believe thats why they areon sale everywhere. I run them from round 0 to round 2,000 on my 223 wylde barrels and then I loose them.
different bullets for different purposes, I'd say.
@jasoncown Yes sir. One would think one ELDm would act like another but the 109 far out paces the others, and no its nothing like a 110 Atip. Good job on that one Miles.
Great data!
I would really love to see a podcast around loading subsonic ammunition for performance. It seems that subsonic ammunition has more dispersion than supersonic and there's almost no data out there as to WHY. Thanks for all that you do!
Great podcast guys, I have been waiting for this one. Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
You guys have a shooting fixture, I don't know if you have a high speed camera, but I'd love to see high speed footage of a barrel shooting with and without a tunner, muzzle break etc... add in some measurements of how much it moves and what it does to the groupings.
Imagine that for the majority of off the shelf hunting rifles there’s a few factors that can make a difference but many probably aren’t noticeable. But how much plays into the mental factor of these steps should make it better and that makes more of a difference because you know mentally that they should be more consistent or what ever factor your trying to improve
I found that seating depth making a difference is bullet dependent. I tested 112 MBs against 108 bergers and ELDMs 30-40 thou off the lands. I thought they were junk because they grouped over an inch. I eventually went back and seated them 10 thou off the lands and the groups tightened right up
love this kind of info.
You either buy Hornady factory ammo or buy a ton of bullets. This has a common denominator. And I am a fan!
Great Information again. Greetings from Germany 🍀👍🏻
Thank you! Cheers!
Thanks for another great podcast with an honest assessment of what's important in the reloading process. Your data obtained in your shooting tunnel increases the quality of your results without wind effect errors. For the casual shooter, are there any "tunnels" available to rent time in, that you are aware of?
Let’s talk about how you lied about the velocity on your prc cartridges
When the 7mm PRC was first introduced, the velocity specifications were set using several high-performance propellants that were readily available at the time. As most of you are aware, there is a world-wide propellant shortage. As such, we’ve been forced to find alternative propellants. When choosing a substitute powder, we focus on accuracy, consistent ignition, and temperature stability. A new propellant option met our criteria and, more importantly, is available, however it often doesn’t achieve the original velocity specifications. With this reduction in velocity coupled with variation in chambers and barrels, it is possible to see 75-175 fps slower velocity from your rifle, than the velocity printed on the box. This alternative propellant solution does generate the consistency and accuracy we demand. Other substitutes did not meet those requirements; we prioritized accuracy over speed. Hornady has always encouraged shooters to test ammunition from their rifles to obtain accurate velocity data.
Due to the powder shortage, everyone in the ammunition manufacturing sector is faced with choosing between loading ammunition slower than originally specified, or simply not loading ammo at all. This temporary powder solution has allowed us to continue to produce and ship ammunition despite the powder availability concerns.
@@hornady maybe you should have updated your packaging and made a statement about it instead of letting us find out after we bought your products and tested them ourselves.
I would like to hear your take on primer choice in load development.
Thanks guy’s this was a good one🤙
In Miles We Trust
Great pod cast - I've listened to it several times now. Each time I get a bit more out of it. one question if you find a component combination that works in a barrel - when you replace that barrel do you start again trying different powders etc or do you just shoot the same powder charge etc again in the new barrel assuming you have enough original components.
Depends how much time you have on your hands. Typically l just try the same combination again dropping powder charge and working back up to check for pressure signs.
The reloading process including moisture percentage - loading by volume and not by charge weight due to swelling and drying of powder. How about doing a test with allowable moisture data and how that effects loads from day to day? That will set another baseline for POI shifts from everyone’s pet loads caused by case volume and pressure differential. What say thee?
I am going to have to listen to this again
I’m pretty sure you talked about Head Height in some podcast, maybe here. I’d like to see you spend 20 min or so, really talking about it.
My rifles are all mid grade factory rifles. I’ve been shooting 30 shot groups and find 1.250 to 1.500 is about as good as I can do. Curious what a reasonable expectation should be for an average factory hunting rifle shooting 30 shots.
Factory rifles are on a sliding scale that can be as bad as 3-8 MOA, and as good as a full-tilt custom built rifle. I think 30 shots inside of 1.5 MOA is very solid for a factory rifle, personally.
Great podcast as always! Something I have been left wondering is how to judge what is a good mean radius group. I know if a gun can consistently shoot 1 moa or better over 20+ shots, it's phenomenal, but I don't really know what a good mean radius would be. If perhaps you could take some time to explain that in a future podcast, it would be appreciated.
Inside of about 0.2" per 100yd depending on what range you shoot at is solid.
@@milesn3173 Thanks Miles!!
Check out episode 99 as well!
After adjusting for scale size the surface of the earth is smoother than a billiard ball.
I wonder why hornady bullets do not win more competitive shooting events.
In my experience it’s because people tend to use the more expensive manufacturers. The thinking goes “more expensive bullets are going to be more accurate” whether thats actually true or not. so its not a matter of hornadys bullets suck (I’ve seen quite the opposite actually), its more a, theres not many people that use them, so theres not many people that won with them.
Great info!! Could you do a podcast on Rem 700 clone actions review?
some people order custom reamers with a neck dimension smaller than SAAMI spec which requires the reloader to neck turn new brass before it will even chamber.
What do you all believe accounts for wide ES when your sure you have done the utmost to get powder charges consistent from one cartridge to the next ie weighing charge on multiple scales, multiple times?
I look forward to hearing the Hornady teams response to this, but in my reloading experience ignition and bullet seating depth consistency often play a big part in that. Some loads (a combination of cartridge/caliber, powder type/brand, powder charge and case volume) seem to like certain primers better than others. And if the variance in seating depth is great enough, whether from seating die to bullet interaction or inconsistency in the overall length or base to ogive of the bullets you're using, you can get wider ES and SD.
Ignition and combustion consistency.
Bullet release, neck tension, case fill… these affect how the powder burns and affect pressure.
Powders primers, temp and humidity
Neck tension and case prep
Are you using top quality brass, bullets and annealing after every firing? For my 6.5 creedmoor lapua brass, h4350 cci450 and 140eldm I average around SD of 8 each 20 shot string in long range matches.
Precision Armament Hypertap muzzlebrake on the 6arc has been amazing
Hornady podcast are great keep them up!
Thanks! Will do!
Thanks for a great episode!
Have you guys ever seen a dramatic accuracy improvement with switching powders? I really want to get the Hornady 110 gr RN FMJ to shoot in my 300 BLK but I'm starting to believe it's a fools errand. I require about 1.5 moa 10 shot groups for my use case but this bullet shoots about double that in my gun. Can a different powder fix this, or is powders more of a fine tuning thing?
Other bullets, e.g. your 150 gr FMJ, shoot well within this requirement, with group size being indistinguishable between powders.
Yes, a different powder can make a huge difference. Every gun being a individual it's like some will prefer one powder the next one something different
I learned a few things from this episode, so thanks for that. Question, I need to do load development for an old Savage 99 chambered in .250 Savage which was re barreled with a Chick Donnely barrel that was turned down to a pencil hunting barrel. The best accuracy I got with factory ammo was with the Hornady 100 gr Interlock (sub 1 MOA), but my primary use for this rifle is Coyote control & the Interlock does not expand fast enough, so I need to reload & use varmint bullets. The barrel is so light it gets hot quick & after 5 or 6 rounds it starts stringing up to 1:30 - 2 O'Clock. How do I deal with that, or should I just load some ammo with lighter varmint bullets 1 grain (of powder) down (like was mentioned in the episode) & run with it.
Awesome podcast! I've been trying too hard.
Thank you for all the great info. I am wondering at what yardage you performed the hyper-prepared brass at. At 100 yards, I would think you would see very little difference. However, at 600 + some of the brass prep differences may show a bit more. Your thoughts please.
Hey, guys - I think you should try a different experiment - take one of the dude's loads that shots GREAT, and TRY to make it shoot bad. Like, load it to a different seating depth, vary the powder charge a grain or two in either direction. Like, see how idiot-proof a good load is
Great Video. Took me a lot longer to come to this conclusion reloading. Guess I am a slow learner 🤪
A podcast on the different ways the rifling is put into the barrel would be great
Check out episode 78
I have personally seen cases from same manufacture that vary as much as 20 grains from one another. Would this not make a difference? I think in this podcast, you're really referring to cases that only vary by a few grains. I don't typically weigh sort brass. However, I do take note if the variation is a gross amount. I ignore a minor variation.
Have you tried using one shot, graphite, or moly in the case necks when seating bullets? Especially after wet tumbling brass.
I spray my one shot at 45 degree angle both front and back,like they said to do on a pod cast. This gets some in the neck and the body. I have never had issues sizing and seating bullets is consistent. I however am a hunter first and don't go way down the rabbit hole like some do in F- Class shooting.
Awesome!
Thanks!
Speaking of load development, how did you all come up with the 7prc load? Been hearing alot of chatter that your factory velocities are way off?
I was averaging 2830 with a 26” barrel with the factory Precision Hunter 175gr ELD-x. That’s not good considering it’s supposed to be 3000fps with a 24” barrel. Hearing the same stories everywhere. Hornady really needs to address this.
@soupie31547 I've seen a few channels talking the same thing. And yes they need to address it for sure. Things like this drive people away.
@@soupie31547 That’s standard Hornady factory ammo. They’re slow. I can push my 7 Sherman Short Mag to 3000fps with a 180 with N565. RL26 would be an ideal choice for a fast 7 PRC load.
When the 7mm PRC was first introduced, the velocity specifications were set using several high-performance propellants that were readily available at the time. As most of you are aware, there is a world-wide propellant shortage. As such, we’ve been forced to find alternative propellants. When choosing a substitute powder, we focus on accuracy, consistent ignition, and temperature stability. A new propellant option met our criteria and, more importantly, is available, however it often doesn’t achieve the original velocity specifications. With this reduction in velocity coupled with variation in chambers and barrels, it is possible to see 75-175 fps slower velocity from your rifle, than the velocity printed on the box. This alternative propellant solution does generate the consistency and accuracy we demand. Other substitutes did not meet those requirements; we prioritized accuracy over speed. Hornady has always encouraged shooters to test ammunition from their rifles to obtain accurate velocity data.
Due to the powder shortage, everyone in the ammunition manufacturing sector is faced with choosing between loading ammunition slower than originally specified, or simply not loading ammo at all. This temporary powder solution has allowed us to continue to produce and ship ammunition despite the powder availability concerns.
Well looks like Hornady Address the issue. Backfire said He was told the same thing on powder change because of shortage of original powder (RL 26) used.
Do you gentlemen anneal, and have you done any testing on neck tension?
I came to post these exact two questions!
This is really interesting, but it doesn't really account for how the top F-class shooters are doing two shot ladder tests for powder then seating AND then consistently shooting mostly X/10 match after match at 600/1000yrds. Meaning clearly an agg of their match results is statistically significant, so it would be super cool if you all did a follow-on to this with how they do that.
What you don’t know or see is the barrel they burnt out just for load development. Plus they turn 8-10 barrels up at a time. One is usually burnt out on load development and short range local matches. They then just transfer that load over to the new barrel. Adjust powder charge and verify and roll on. Also they usually stick to a cartridge that works. Like the go to was 284. Now it seems they are switching to 7prc variant. Running a round they have ran for years it’s a lot easier to load for. And a lot of times they transfer load data from one barrel to the next.
No, thats dumb. If you were paying attention, the fact that the top guys are all using top-tier components/barrels/actions, skill and machining then that more than accounts for their wins. They use good ammo and barrels.
@@Longshot762x51 i know they use good barrels , components, actions and so forth. But I’m like 90% sure fclass John and winning in the wind have videos where they had a batch of barrels ( same blanks ) same reamer and specs. And their current barrel was on its way out they switched barrels and their new load development was to shoot their current load and then a few below and about their current load. I know they use the top components. But i can guarantee they don’t go thru a full load development process on every single barrel. If they did that barrel would make it 2 matches at most.
@MrBoostin18 you are right, but you forget all the reloading on old barrel they did that accounts for the data needed. Both them and Eric Cortina do not need to do full development because they know what has worked for that cartridge and the 1000 plus rounds on the last barrel. Erik Cortina admitted that on pod cast with Jayden Quinlan. Changing a barrel and shooting old load a adjusting if need is fine. But Erik said if it was new cartridge and gun he would shoot 3 shot tests and then pic the best couple and do 10 to 15 shot test. He would then pick the best of the two and shoot a 20 shot test to confirm load. Then in different conditions in a different day (Hot vs. Cold Rain vs.Sunshine, etc) and shoot atlest 10-15 more before settling. So add up the shots and it's is not 2 or 3 shots and go with new rifle and Cartridge. Also, Eric runs the same bullets and powder in his F-Class guns. Barrel change to him is like getting your same powder but different lot. You don't need a lot of rounds to find your load if you need to change at all from last load. Erik most of the time does not have to change load. But with new barrel still shoots 2 or 3 shot group then shoots atleast 15-20 more with just barrel change. What they are taking about are people get new rifle or new powder or new bullet and shot 3 or 5 shots and calling it good and heading to match or worse heading out hunting. A badly dispersed load can make your day bad for match and worse a horrible day for any animal if your hunting. Hope that explains it more.
Folks the topic and my reply are about load development, not follow on barrels chambered the same, not about their equipment, not their skill reading mirage and wind. It's about load development. If people actually read what they write they would know the top shooters don't do large data sets as part of their ladder testing specifically due to if they did they would put too many rounds out the barrel not leaving enough for competition. If you read for most any of them, they all use basically the same process to find the node and load they want to settle on. Then in competition they prove that process out by shooting sighters followed by 20 shot groups and do that over many days and matches. Their own match targets show their development process works just fine and it's not using large data sets.
I have a question for you all at Hornady.
When I reload for a new rifle, I have to perform trial and error powder loads to see which makes the consistency load for tight groupings. But Precision Hunter loads already group tight. How is that possible? Each rifle is different.
(Tikka t3x 30-06 H4350 57 gr. 165 gr. Nos Partition.)
Have you guys ever done DOE with reloading?
17:54 The discussion up to this point leaves me confused. Fully prepped Hornady brass versus factory Hornady brass, and the results are indistinguishable. So why the market for the alpha brass companies including Alpha brand brass?
If relatively low quality Hornady (that some gun manufacturers recommend not using) is just as good as sorted perfection Hornady, why do so many people not use Hornady and instead go to Peterson, Lapua, ADG, Alpha, etc.
I think a lot of it has to do with the metallurgy and longevity, especially with loads that exceed 65,000psi. Some of the expensive brass handles high pressure better. My experience with ours is that if you run at or under 65,000psi they'll last 15-25 firings with proper annealing cycles, but if you push over 70ksi you may be looking at 2-3 loads before they get loose primer pockets. Some of the other brands will handle 70-75ksi loads for 5-10 cycles. I don't advise pushing any brass that hard, but people routinely do it, believing that our book max loads are conservative starting points (they're not).
Plus confirmation bias
On case prep process; do any of you anneal at all and have you all done testing on benefits/ accuracy of annealing?
Some of us do, not for accuracy benefits, but for case longevity evening out neck tension.
For precision shooting, anneal after each and every firing in order to maintain consistent neck tension. Also, not to be a salesmen, but if you're going to anneal, it is worth every penny to buy an AMP. Other methods don't offer the consistency and true annealing process provided by the AMP.
An AMP is a WHOLE lot of pennies, lol. I've been super happy with the speed and effectiveness of flame annealing, once you get it dialed in. After work and family I barely have any time left for hobbies or interests so if it's not fast and effective I don't bother. I like the concept of induction annealing but until it's faster and costs hundreds instead of thousands, I just can't do it.
@DanielReyes-hz1qk I understand. The AMP definitely isn't cheap! Flame annealing is still a good option, so long as like you said, you have it dialed in properly.
Even if you can't get the AMP, I'd still visit their site (if you haven't already) and read through their testing on all different kinds of annealing processes. I learned quite a lot from their research.
Good stuff I would like to hear More about Neptune
@hornady how does one get a career started working in the lab? Does miles need an protégé? I keep looking but no dice
Speaking of uniform powder lots, do you guys ever mix the last pound or two of an opened eight pound jug into a freshly opened jug, especially if the lot numbers are different?
I would say NO. Not a good idea.
Stating that barrels lots of components is good to assist precision implies that variations do matter i.e. brass - but at the same time you state brass prep doesn't help. So how big are the variations between brass lots that make a difference if you were to mix them up? (same manufacturer)
Mixed year/headstamp military .30-06 brass back in the day I'd see as much as 150-200fps ES. Mixing lots of modern stuff you can still see 80-100fps ES where you would normally expect 40-60fps on a large sampling. It may be as simple as a revision made to tooling in the forming process of a bullet jacket or a case that may improve the product overall, but makes it different from previous production and causes shifts in POI, or changes in internal volume... stuff like that. That's why I suggest whenever possible to keep same-lot components together and double check when you get into new lots of components, especially powder.
@milesn3173 thanks yes I assume we are talking components that in general are created to tighter tolerances. But it clearly suggests that variations matter. Most of what precision shooters do is remove variations but these podcasts seem to imply that doesn't matter. Could it be that the system/platform being used is what determines if a variation is noise or meaningful. I.e looking at extremes a rail gun vs a hunting rifle.
Speaking of the 6ARC load development, when will you have load data for the 80gr ELD-VT? I finally have some bullets on the way.
Would love to use hornady brass for my 357 loads, but it seems they are always trimmed for the FTX bullets. Am I wrong here? I haven't purchased new brass, just reloading some factory XTP loads.
Is this data posted somewhere?
This is at least the 3rd time I’ve heard “forget the seating die is adjustable” - are you not worried about throat erosion in the calibers you are shooting? I have been fighting with a factory magnum rifle and recently discovered that in 250-300 rounds the throat has eroded nearly .040”.
@hornady
What software are you using to create the composite groups?
A lot of what we've done is in Excel, but I've been messing with MatLab recently. For simple parameters MatLab is overkill but it is nice for a little more in-depth analysis.
@milesn3173
@hornady
You talked about pick a bullet, pick a powder, test, maybe change bullet or powder for more performance.
Did I miss 'primers' in there somewhere, or do you guys just never switch them up?
Not typically a huge factor, but can be something to look at. In the ARC we’re running 205’s or 450’s
what kind of mean radius numbers should we be looking for ?
If you have a drive or some time, check out the mean radius podcast. Episode 99
so.... basically what you found out is once you find a powder charge and a bullet that your barrel likes nothing else matters or isn't going to change anything significantly. your barrel is what it is at that point
Unless you want to devote hundreds of rounds to achieve those last remaining gains, yes. Trying different powders, bullets, and barrels is the coarse knob. Powder charge, seating depth, etc.. are fine knobs.
thank you sir for your diligence
Criterion is another company that makes great button rifled barrels.
"The Law of Large Numbers" always tells the truth.
Seth- reference hunting rifle. Would you just fire your five- 3 shot groups onto the same target to make your composite?
Depends how accurate and what distance it’s at. We like to be able to distinguish each bullet hole.
Speaking of load development
When are we going to get 22 creed on the books
I was told they can’t put any data out for a year. Horizon firearms has exclusive rights to the cartridge for a year because they were a huge force behind getting it saami spec’d. I don’t understand why Horizon wouldn’t want data out help the cartridge. Hornady wants to push the 22ARC, so they don’t want to publish data for a 22 caliber cartridge that stomps all over it. To me they are different enough that there shouldn’t be that much competition between them. One is great option for a small frame AR, the other is the ultimate bolt gun high BC 22 cal.
@DanL243 I'm sure you're right just be nice to hear it from the company
How do you superimpose several groups into one composite group? Does Group Analysis do this?
I don’t think you can in 4DOF but that would be super handy to be able to combine images. I don’t think you can even export the data into excel like you would for zero angle which I think is ludicrous.
How many bullets are typically produced in a particular lot?
Let's talk some load development for the 7mm PRC to meet your box posted velocities or.... You could print the actual velocities on the box.
What would be the best way to contact Hornady to discuss load data? Tech support?
Absolutely. tech@hornady.com or 800-338-3220
Why are powder charges data so different form different from each manufacturer manual?
th-cam.com/video/DB8nbr7v_Q0/w-d-xo.html
I swear, some of these comments/ questions make me wonder if people are not listening to what's actually being said or if they are simply too stupid to understand it.
I would go with stupid.
will Hornady every publish their data from the tests they have conducted that they refer to in these podcasts? Just white papers posted on their webpage would be great!
Have you weighed primers?