The Price of Perfection: The Depressing Reality of Whiplash
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2023
- Is the cost of greatness worth it? Find out in our thorough analysis of Whiplash!
Whiplash is renowned as one of the greatest films of all time, brilliantly covering themes like abuse and obsession. We decided to go in-depth and figure out the sacrifices that must be made in the pursuit of greatness. Please like and subscribe if you enjoyed!
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Definitely one of my favourite movies of all time. It’s incredible how Whiplash fits for any competitive and high performance demanding environment.
I was a competitive swimmer until my teens, and drop out due to exhaustion and loss of motivation, in a simple explanation. Later I discovered i had (and still have) depression and anxiety disorders, and it all began in that time. When i saw fletcher in the Metz scene, my heart rushed and i felt like vomiting, cuz that’s just the way my coach behaved with my team. I saw myself in Andrew and felt the grief of seeing him falling down to madness as he absorbed Fletcher’s ideology. I almost became like him, but my hate for myself was bigger than my hate for my now bad performance, so I eventually dropped out, thinking i wasn’t enough anymore to be on the team (unlike Andrew). I believed every word my coach said, and i practiced every day to please him and to be worth of his “concern”. He messed up with former top swimmers (like me) and with new talents, like some of my friends. The essence of evilness and lack of morals and ethic in fletcher's methods are the intimidation and manipulation he uses to control his students behaviors. He made Andrew trust him, as he believed the bald man would be some kind of guru and a master to follow, and then, in front of the others, fletcher start to humilliate him. That's very cruel and confusing, and that's how you destroy someone's autonomy.
Manipulation and excessive pressure can do a lot of damage to your mind, and it will probably last for the rest of your life. I'm still dealing with stuff from that time cuz it messed my head so bad. This movie is legendary and should be analysed more times. 🙌
Wow. That was an extremely fascinating read. I really appreciate how you took the time to not only write that but watch our video and properly understand our points and relate it to your own life. Thank you. I hope you are doing well, as things like these are obviously very hard to recover from (as touched upon in this video), and it's very saddening to see this situation happen to you. It's also a testament to how realistic whiplash is, and how these are actual problems that plague our world and not just fictional scenarios. You will do well my friend. You have already accomplished so much. You have learned so much from that experience and it shows in how you write; it's very intelligent and self-aware. Good job. We also agree that the movie is amazing and is worthy of many, many analyses! Good luck in your life!
@@thedefinitiveopinion thank you so much 🙏 yeah it's hard to overcome this stuff but I definitely learned from that, and I'm still learning. Will never let anyone tame and manipulate me again, the feeling of living in order to satisfy others expectations is gruesome. Whiplash really is a frickin realistic scenario!! And it's not only frightening and tense, but it's also sad as we can see someone's dream becoming a burden to carry. Fletcher’s ethics and Andrew's obsession and IMO his ego (as he wanted to prove himself for others, and I don't blame him cuz I was the same) turned the drums, the thing he loved the most and lived for, in a true nightmare.
Bothers me that some ppl believe this movie is somewhat about meritocracy, determination and "no pain no gain" kind of sh*t. Chazelle himself stated that Andrew's future could not be any different from Casey's. It saddens me cuz I lived through that, and people who truly experienced this kind of environment with Fletcher-like mentors will never advocate for this.
Keep up with the good work, I'll be looking forward to seeing more!
@@jimoo3751 thank you for all the kind words and effort you put into these comments! Very interesting to read. Yeah, definitely agree with what you’re saying. It’s back to the fine line between passion and obsession, and when it becomes too much to be worth it. Such a great movie. I don’t think other people seeing the movie a different way should bother you, rather, it should interest you and inspire you to promote conversation about the movie! That’s what makes it fun, right? :)
Thank you so much for the brilliant conversation! We really hope to see you again 🎉
@@jimoo3751 also, your real life experience makes you a super credible source and I’m sure people would love to listen to you talk about it like we have. Cheers 🎉
its crazy how the small amount of subscribers increases the quality of the comments astronomically
It is quite a double-edged sword 😂 Although, we always plan to put a great effort into comments! We believe in not only engaging with our community, but promoting discussion and the sharing of opinions when it comes to media, no matter how different they may be. The video is the hard part, while the interacting with others is the fun part!
Except this one, ironically.
There must be a reason why Fletcher is obsessed about finding and building a "great one" instead of striving to become one himself. Does he know the price and won't pay it? Or does he knows in his heart he doesn't have what it takes? He looks like he's a good pianist with his band, but nobody is perceiving him as great. And what's really sad, on the other hand is, the movie doesn't end with Andrew reaching "greatness", he only achieves Fletcher's approval, for that one moment
“Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.”
I’ll examine Fletcher’s piano playing later (I play piano) and see how proficient he is. Of course, I may not be entirely accurate, but it would be a decent gauge to answer your question!
The question is, “ how bad do you want it?” The timing With everything in Andrews life, the order of events in the film, propelled him to realize pursuing greatness/music is what he was here to do. His families lack of approval and mocking of him, all the failures experienced, gf love interest a dead end, he defaulted to what he knows and who he has always been, a drummer. He knows he was born to play and believed he can be great. Ironically the antagonist, I think was the only person that really appreciated him, the way he wanted to be seen, Respected him as a musician. it took fletcher to push him past his limits, and dig deep and choose if he really wants it.
It really does take a certain type to go down this path, which everyone isn’t cut out for, and ultimately comes down to what one values and priorities. When your values begin to get clear, then one’s decisions become a litter easier. In order to be great, there’s no royal road to that destination only in this case Andrew had not only the talent to begin with, but the obsession to be great. You either sacrifice for the goals/outcomes you want or the goal becomes the sacrifice.
Very well said! It will forever be debated whether than destiny is worth it, though.
I feel like the choice of jazz music for this movie is an oxymoron. I’m a jazz drummer myself, and one of the key elements of jazz is improvisation. Jazz was created by classical musicians who were tired of playing things exactly the way they were made and were envious of more creation. So at its core, jazz isn’t perfect, and that’s what makes it jazz. Fletcher being a character searching for a perfect performance and Neiman searching for perfection in his play isn’t what jazz is supposed to be, and it makes the choice of music even better when you think of it like that
Absolutely amazing point. Jazz is a lot more about the soul and the player rather than the composer and the sheets. It’s about finding yourself and letting your own being consume the music you’re playing. However, Neiman let the music consume his life, perfectly suiting the idea of jazz music, rather than perfecting his drumming skills. It was more about getting lost in the passion. Absolutely loved that point!
Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little of yourself to get stuff done. It is what it is
The bigger the goal, the bigger the sacrifice
Andrew is definitely going to end up like Stacy (that was his name, right?)
Nicole was such a good character. Just an insecure sweet girl who missed home. Had he stayed with her he might've kept himself
She really was a symbol for Andrew's heart and humanity. Once he let her go, he effectively let that part of himself go, too! Thanks for watching + commenting!
I’m not a musician, but I can relate to everything in the film. A family who likes all your successful cousins and brothers and friends and constantly reminding you how much more they have accomplished than you. Wanting a girlfriend, only when getting one to realize you don’t really care whether or not you have one. A mentor who you hate with all your heart and in a strange way that hatred becoming your motivation. A father who only wants the best for you, realizing you aren’t his little boy anymore. Practicing at something repetitively for hours until you fucking rage at the very thing you claim to love doing.
Recently watched this movie. As a drummer myself I absolutely love this movie, and I appreciate your in depth look into it!
That’s amazing! We both love this movie too due to its rich themes and characters and we love that you were able to experience it as well! We also want to thank you for taking time out of your day to watch our analysis and comment! It means a lot and gives us a lot of motivation to continue to make more videos, analyze a lot more media and share our thoughts to like minded thinkers! Thanks again and we hope to see you around in the future!
Watched this movie a while ago can’t get over it, love this video!
Our personal favourite! So simply demonstrates such an interesting concept!
Excellent video. I am so impressed with your channel. 👏
That is so lovely to hear! So glad to hear you enjoyed, it makes our days reading comments like these!
this movie hits so close to home it's unreal. I'm the same as Andrew in every aspect, the only difference being he's a drummer and I'm a flamenco guitarist. I'm very outcasted from society and my family, and playing guitar has been my only way to cope with my existence. This movie made me realize i'm on the same path to insanity as Andrew. I don't know what to do now, this movie showed me the life of an artist, it'll most likely always be miserable . I feel very burnt out from playing guitar. What was once something that i liked so much is now something i hate even looking at
Wow I can't believe I found you at only 88 subscribers! Keep the good stuff up my dude and you are definitely going places
Thank you so much for the kind words :) We fully intend to keep going and it is solely thanks to these amazing comments! We hope to see you again soon!
Keep killing it bro
Appreciate it 👍 we’re gonna try our best! If you liked this video, feel free to check out our new video about manipulation in breaking bad! th-cam.com/video/R0PGY92TlGA/w-d-xo.html
I think there is too much emphasis put on fletchers abuse of Andrew, to be great isn't just to have someone push you relentlessly but it also requires the 'greats' to be able to take the pushing 'Because the next Charlie Parker would never be discouraged'
people who consider greatness possible for themselves long for a fletcher like character because greatness is all they can think about, once that seed has been planted, they will do whatever it takes to achieve that.
'I know of no better life purpose than to perish in attempting the great and impossible' Freidrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Whiplash has much in common with Full Metal Jacket, Fletcher is basically Sgt. Hartmann, and the jazz students are basically marine recruit Pile. Both Fletcher and Hartmann are hellish instructors, who demand perfection at the cost of their pupil's humanity, reducing them into machines, leaving no trace of the people they once were, and dehumanising punishment for even the smallest infractions. Both Whiplash and Full Metal Jacket shows the cost of losing that humanity, the toll PTSD has on the human spirit, and no matter how good you are, it will never be good enough to satisfy, nor justify the cruelty they experienced at the hands of a madman.
I love Full Metal Jacket! Great movie. I agree that the theme of abuse and how it transforms someone into a shell is present in both movies. The way you linked them was very cool, since they're very different movies plot wise (war compared to music). One difference, though, is that Neiman sort of accomplished his goal in the end, while Pile kind of just committed suicide without accomplishing anything other than becoming a respected member of the squad. I suppose, though, they both lost themselves in the process of pleasing a psychotic mentor. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! They were super cool to read!
For my money, the prototypical tale of obsession and its destructive effects is Mary Shelly's "Frankenstein; Or, The Modern Prometheus". Dr. Frankenstein, like Jurassic Park's John Hammond, never asked if he should, only if he could. Peeled away, one wonders whether the monster ever existed (Durden-esque), and if it weren't just the effects of Frankenstein's unhealthy obsession. Ultimately, his obsession could have been anything (e.g. reaching the North Pole). What matters in this tale, is that Frankenstein's obsession destroyed all his relationships, portrayed in story as the deaths of all those whom he loved. It is a warning for us all.
Absolutely love Frankenstein. However, to me, Frankenstein was more about morality and the dangers of technology. I never saw it as a book about obsession. Thank you for opening me up to a completely new perspective! I might reread it with this in mind! Hope you enjoyed the video.
This was such a good video. Great Job.
Thank you so much! We’re glad you enjoyed. You may also like the other videos on our channel if you liked this one. We hope to see you again!
This is great! Thank you!
Thanks! We checked out your channel and those videos look awesome, too. Keep up the great work and thank you for commenting!
@@thedefinitiveopinion Aprecciated!
the way neiman was in time the whole movie
You just predicted one of our next videos 😁
brilliant vid mate.
We really appreciate that you took the time to leave such a kind comment. Thank you!
Annie Dillard says in her book Pilgrim at Tinker Creek - ‘There is always an enormous temptation in all of life to diddle around making itsy-bitsy friends and meals and journeys for itsy-bitsy years on end. It is so self-conscious, so apparently moral, simply to step aside from the gaps where the creeks and winds pour down, saying, I never merited this grace, quite rightly, and then to sulk along the rest of your days on the edge of rage. I won’t have it. The world is wilder than that in all directions, more dangerous and bitter, more extravagant and bright. We are making hay when we should be making whoopie; we are raising tomatoes when we should be raising Cain, or Lazarus.’…Perhaps this quote gives us the correct perspective in stories like Whiplash.
That’s quite a beautiful quote. It does encapsulate the mindset both Fletcher and Andrew worked by throughout the movie. However, we got to see the effects of this on Andrew and Sean Casey: depression and death. Is it worth it? That’s the real point of whiplash, in my opinion. It’s not about giving you the destination, but rather, the journey. This leaves it up to the viewer to decide if the journey is worth the destination. Thank you so much for the beautiful comment and the conversation it sparked. We hope to see you again 🎉
Gained a new sub, amazing video! 🙌😃💯
Thank you so much! We're so glad to have you!
Neiman breaking up with his gf cuz he wants to be one of the greats, while at Best Coffee Cafe. Something I didn't notice til just now, but that seems like a small intentional detail put in for people like me who over analyze small details like that LMAO
That is really interesting! Great catch!
Great Video
Thank you for your kind words and for commenting. We are glad you enjoyed the video and hope to see you again 🎉
No no no... One of the greats!
Yeah, Andrew should have seen how horrible Fletcher really is. Andrew was so caught up with his obsession that he failed to see what's in front of him. The reason he let this happened because he desperately wanted someone to believe in him. He turned to Fletcher. He wanted Fletcher's approval.
At the dinner scene, Andrew was scared and didn't want to end up like his father, as unsuccessful. Andrew didn't try to find a way to connect with his family and find something in common.
After the car accident, Fletcher should have stop Andrew and take him to the hospital no matter what, but he let Andrew played and humiliated himself.
Even though Andrew succeeded, he was left with nothing. He had no family, no friends, and not even his girlfriend. All he got was his glory and his music. Andrew didn't care. It's sad that Andrew gave up the most important things that can make him a human being.
Agreed. Great points. So, the question is, do you think it was worth it? If it truly propels him to greatness, would it be considered a worthy exchange? They say that Pagini sold his soul to the devil to obtain his musical prowess. Is it possible to achieve that level of skill without sacrificing the things that make you human? Thank you for commenting and we hope to see you again!
@@thedefinitiveopinion To Andrew, it wasn't worth it. There are other ways to achieve it, but Andrew was unfortunately dealt a bad hand. Andrew's pride and ego got the better of him. Fletcher was the Devil that Andrew sold his soul to.
His family was unable to understand him and support him. His father realized that he was too late to help his son when he needed him the most.
If Andrew had never met Fletcher, maybe things would have been different and Andrew would have still had his girlfriend and his family.
Whiplash is renowned as one of the greatest films of all time, brilliantly covering themes like abuse and obsession. We decided to go in-depth and figure out the sacrifices that must be made in the pursuit of greatness. Please like and subscribe if you enjoyed!
Also, we hope everyone likes the new editing style used in this video. We're thinking of using this whenever it comes to movies.
Check out our new video covering how manipulation is used in Breaking Bad:
th-cam.com/video/R0PGY92TlGA/w-d-xo.html
amazing
No, you’re amazing! 🎉🎉 thank you for the kindness!
How the fuck do you not have more subscribers? Good video my guy.
Thank you 🙏 we’re on our way hopefully! Just trying to provide fun content for everyone, though!
@@thedefinitiveopinion Good luck man, I subbed. This is some top-quality content. I just watched whiplash and wanted to see what other people thought. I think this is the best analysis I've watched. Also liked the fact that you used George Foreman clips while talking about greatness.
@@tofu6284 That is extremely kind of you. We really appreciate it, seriously, as this really motivates us to put out more videos. The best analysis?? That's such a great compliment that we are going to remember for a long time. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to spread kindness. The world needs more people like you! Also, George Foreman is definitely GOATed.
Great essay, I recently saw Whiplash for the first time and the movie was fantastic!. I would like to know what movies you plan to analyze in the future, maybe something related to Batman? Whether it's from Matt Reeves or Nolan, I'm asking that because of your channel's logo. I guess you liked The Batman a lot.
👌
The Batman is something that definitely has been on our radar to cover for sure. Our channel, as you might have been able to tell, is run by two different people and let's just say that we both have EXTREMELY different viewpoints on the movie… There are a lot of different factors that influenced our viewing experience for the film which led to, as you might expect, varying opinions. However, the TDK trilogy is something we are definitely also going to be covering. Moreover, with Reeves building out his universe with more installments, we definitely look forward to covering these movies in the future. Nonetheless, we both love Batman and believe he is one of the greatest fictional characters to ever exist and look forward to adding more content regarding him! With that being said, we already dropped a video on All Star Batman and Robin (th-cam.com/video/VmxvJiVxtVg/w-d-xo.html) and we definitely recommend you checking it out! Thank you for taking your time to comment and watch our video!
@@thedefinitiveopinion Great, I'll be waiting for your next videos, also, what do you think of the Nolan trilogy? Imo, it's still a great trilogy that holds up to this day, those 3 movies helped me through a difficult time in my life. It has problems for sure, some bigger than others, but I still think it's great.
@@alvaroalejandro7616 We are really looking forward to seeing you in the comment section of our next videos! As for the Nolan Trilogy, we are both in agreement that, not only is the Dark Knight the GOAT superhero movie, but the trilogy as a whole is the GOAT of the superhero genre. We would love nothing nothing more than to analyze each movie to the fullest extent. Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Rises each hold very special places in our hearts and are movies we grew up watching. They all do such a great job of crossing a superhero over into serious and deep cinema, rivalling even the greatest movies of all time even while being a superhero movie. You're right; it does have its problems, but those problems do not affect its GOAT status whatsoever in our opinions. I genuinely cannot think of a more iconic movie than The Dark Knight. Thank you so much for the recommendations + kind words, and we will try to get those videos out as soon as possible! Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss them when they come out!
The finale was the only scene in a movie where my jaw dropped to the floor for the entirety of the credits 🥶
It was absolutely stunning! Thank you for watching AND commenting! We appreciate your support!
great analysis, although, even considering i really like and enjoy rewatching the movie, i agree with adam neely's take on the film (check it out if you haven't, has some really interesting insights). it's a sports movie, not a music movie.
Thank you for the kind comment! We think that this theme of obsession driving greatness is obviously pervasive in all realms of human endeavour! That’s what whiplash is about. However, we think that the choice for a musical setting was brilliant and refreshing for a movie about becoming the best!
As somebody who is in a band and is willing to do whatever it takes for it, I saw nothing wrong with what Neiman did. I really hope I’m not the only one
Same tbh. I wish I had a teacher like that pushing me to my limit. Some people don’t understand the pursuit of greatness and aren’t willing to sacrifice
I would disagree with your point on family dynamics and Nyman having an unfound sense of superiority. The family dynamics in that scene was set up in such a way to show how the uncle (?) was seeing Andrew's father as a meek pushover and Nyman as a music guy without a care in the world all the while having no clue how the music craft works. Furthermore the said uncle, aunt and even his father were cheering for two sons in full details and then at the end saying what about drumming lessons in a clearly derogatory tone. I would argue that many of us, if we would be in place of Nyman, would rightfully react or at least feel the same.
While you make a good point, we think the scene’s main focus isn’t Neiman’s ego being perpetuated, but his vision. That scene shows us how Neiman views his craft, and how he believes suffering a horrible fate is a worthwhile exchange for glory. I agree that the family was being quite rude to Neiman upon rewatching it, but I don’t think that was the main point of that scene. That was just put in by the writers to provoke Neiman into stating his miserable future. However, I still think it showcases his sense of superiority, as he cannot allow himself to just sit and eat his dinner. Sometimes it is important as humans to have humility and suck it up in bad situations for the sake of others. Neiman effectively ruined the night just because the family was being inconsiderate towards his drumming. Although, it’s not a completely unjustifiable reaction. Thank you for commenting and sparking a good conversation! You made such a good point 🎉
Good timeline I just got done watching this movie for the 3rd time
We're glad it worked out well for you! We hope you also enjoyed the video! Thank you for commenting and we hope to see you again! 🎉
😊🙏💯
Ha, I made a video arguing almost exactly the opposite point like two days before you made this.
That's a funny coincidence! Just checked out the video and I have to say, it has some excellent analysis and I really love your own editing style. Just to be clear, our point is not that chasing greatness is bad, but just that the movie highlights what must be sacrificed. We recognize that Fletcher is what propelled Neiman to greatness, and it is not about if he is a devil or not, but rather if this is the right way to go. This allows for a lot of interpretation in the message of the movie, allowing anyone to take their own stance on whether it is worth it or not! That's why we love this movie, as it encourages a lot of discussion and debate. I hope we both succeed as aspiring TH-cam essayists (?) and I hope to see more of you in the future. Good luck!
@@thedefinitiveopinion Hey, thanks for watching and for the gracious response! I'm a fan of your editing as well and even picked up a few things while watching your vid, so thanks for that. Thanks also for clarifying your point. I appreciate the nuance you bring to the discussion. Best of luck to you as well. Here's a sub. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with next!
@@thebarkingyears I’m glad you look at discussion the same way as us! Thanks for subscribing and we’ll definitely subscribe to you for that very impressive whiplash video! Perhaps we can have a collaboration in the future 🎉 good luck!
Fletcher was probably that one kid in band who thought he was talented until he entered the big leagues and became bitter once he realized he would never be great. The fact he plays piano feels like it supports that idea, since the piano kids were always the freakshow talents at least in my experience.
8:27 lmao wtf is "hollowless?" 🤣
Not a lot of people know what its like eating plain omelettes for months trying to perfect the French omelette,
obsession takes different forms, and once your obsession takes over... well, you got few other options then, and they all feel empty
Cool way to put it. Once you have a taste of perfection or even a smell, it's hard to do anything but chase it for the rest of your life.
if fletcher just was allowed to use someone elses sticks the whole climax of the movie coulda been avoided and we coulda just had a happy ending there
Whiplash: How it should have ended
yeah it’s my favorite movie of all time, definetly has been overrated but whiplash changed the way i look at movies as a medium
Whiplash is also our favourite movie of all time! Just curious, why would you say it's been overrated?
@@thedefinitiveopinion i’ve seen too many top 5/top 10 lists with whiplash in it. whiplash is my favorite but not the best movie i’ve ever seen, if that makes sense
That girl was never going to be right for him. From the jump, she does not know what she wants. He cannot relate to her. She cannot relate to him. If she wanted to learn how, she should have built him up. He could have asked her what she thought and ask her if she could live with his desire for greatness.
Agree that they were at completely different stages of their life. Andrew was super focused and determined while the girl (Nicole) was still trying to find their footing. However, like you said, they could have helped each other become better, as that is what relationships are supposed to be. She could have taught him to calm down and enjoy his life more, while he could have motivated her to also find her way. Or, like you said, she could have helped him reach his goals. It's very interesting how the movie leaves it open-ended: was it a good thing that he left Nicole? On one hand, he became a great drummer, while on the other, he was quite unhappy and regretted his decision.
@@thedefinitiveopinion We have lost our heroes if he was wrong to sacrifice everything for being great. The world needs people like that.
@@jimjohn6520 true. We do need people who dedicate everything to certain fields, as that’s where the true advancements are made.
Your analysis of jazz in the movie is a bit off. It’s not as happy go lucky as you claim. Yea it can be but a big sub genre of jazz is of slow ballads. Plus there’s the fact that it has its roots in blues which is really depressing historically. Also the fact that Damien Chazelle is a big jazz fan and has it in all his movies no matter the theme, so the choice isn’t as deliberate in the way you think.
That was a point we intended to make: the irony of jazz. I don’t remember if we mentioned it in the video or not (sometimes things get left out by accident), but we wanted to point out how jazz usually has very depressive connotations surrounding it. Thank you for pointing this out anyway! Hope you enjoyed the video and checked out some others on our channel!
That’s dumb then what’s the point of living because we all die at the end?
Do you mind elaborating? Thanks for watching and commenting 🎉
The biggest victim of the movie was Sean Casey.
Definitely would have been cool to learn more about Casey. Although, why would you name him the biggest victim as opposed to Andrew? Because of his suicide? Thank you for watching and especially for commenting! Hope to see you again 🎉
@@thedefinitiveopinion he’s the biggest victim because Fletcher used his death to motivate Neiman, and other students. While Sean’s death did shock Fletcher, it didn’t make him reflect how he’s been treating his students, so he lies about how Sean died just so he doesn’t reveal the real horror of Fletchers teachings.
You make one mistake and you lose everything. Like Business where if you screw up you could lose clients, your office etc, in Jazz especially in his band he’ll cut you out and tell you You’re worthless despite however long you worked with him.
Sean killed himself because he probably made one mistake and with fletchers teachings it made him think there was nothing else to live for.
@@masterzombie161 Wow. That's an extremely cool and intricate way to look at the Sean Casey subplot. So, you see it as Sean having to go through everything Andrew went through, but not being able to achieve Fletcher's approval and in turn killing himself due to his unfulfillment/possible mistake? Looking at it this way, I could agree that he was a bigger victim than Andrew, as Andrew at least got Fletcher's approval in the end. However, as stated in the video, we believe Andrew will inevitably follow in the same path Sean Casey did, and break under the pressure (as you said) and probably do something along the lines of suicide. Thank you for sharing your idea (it was very fun to read and opened us up to a whole new perspective) and we hope to see you again in our next videos!
@@thedefinitiveopinionyea it’s a cycle of a toxic business. Better call Saul too does a good job highlighting that. You can be the greatest lawyer in the world, who owns a company and work hard, but if you make one mistake it’ll cost you everything.
@@masterzombie161 good intertextually by referring to better call Saul. It does seem like a common theme of life, and more importantly, when striving for greatness and perfection. Perfect literally means no mistakes, so once one mistake is made, it’s no longer perfect. Perfectionists cannot handle that and their empire will crumble. Thank you for the amazing discussion. Definitely hope to see you in the next videos 🎉
Okay, I'm sorry but as other commentors have pointed out his family is equally as toxic.
Hi! Thanks for commenting.
Do you mean equally as toxic as Neiman? One thing I think it’s important to understand is the respective fields of the children at the table. The other kids are doing football, which is an extremely mainstream form of glory, while music is pretty lowkey. Also, (as mentioned in the scene), musicians tend to get their fame way later, while football players get it right away. Musicians, and Andrew specifically, are in it for the long haul. Andrew is willing to hurt himself and sacrifice everything for years in order to reach a goal that he will only be able to maintain for a small amount of time. This is his vision, and he even states it himself in this scene. He doesn’t understand why the football players are getting more praise than him, but it’s just because their fields are completely different: one is quite short term and more actively glorifying, while the other is long term and doesn’t have much mainstream appreciation right away. While I will agree that the family should have been more supportive, it was clear that they just weren’t educated enough on what he was doing, and to be fair, how many people know more about music than football? So, Andrew displayed some ego here by expecting them to praise him for his craft (which isn’t a bad thing as they are family and should support him) Even though he himself knows it’s a long term thing. Although, you’re right that the family was being rude. We neglected to mention that for sure. Thank you again for commenting!
@@thedefinitiveopinion
There's SO much subtext going on in that scene. And there really is no clear good guy at all. Neiman was being a douche. We agree on that. But I don't think is this a case of the family being "uneducated" otherwise they wouldn't have pushed back as hard as they did. They were undermining him at every turn.
The uncle is a pushy bully who rags on the father's cooking then calls music a "nasty business" Then the aunt calls it his "drumming thing". When Neiman says "we're the best in the country" the cousin doesn't say "Oh cool, good job!" He says "Isn't music subjective?" undermining the worth of his accomplishment.
That family had zero respect for what Neiman was doing. They were just awful.
His father is more complex case. I get that he's putting his son in his place at the table, but does it in such a cruel way. He basically said "You're never going to make it son." Causing Neiman to walk out.
I genuinely want to thank you for commenting and putting in the time and effort for an intelligent and worthwhile read. You make really good points!
I would like to respectfully disagree while also admitting that your point is a completely valid interpretation of the scene. I personally saw the aunt calling it “his drumming lessons” and the football players saying “isn’t it subjective” as proof that they are uneducated. They don’t understand that music in itself is a competitive field, with the woman thinking they’re just lessons and the boys thinking it can’t be judged. However, as a musician myself, I can testify to the fact that music competitions are extremely rigorous with a lot of pressure!
I agree, though, that they were absolutely undermining Neiman’s achievements and that even the father was being rude to his son. I think what we’ve learned is that there’s so many ways to interpret this movie, which is what makes it so great! Thanks so much for the discussion! I really appreciate the effort and points you made. I hope to see you commenting again soon 🎉
@@grey-spark I'd also like to clarify that this is not at all a rude discussion, but a civil one. I very much like differing opinions when it comes to media, as that is when you can really get to the good stuff!