On the Trinity with Matthew Barrett (Intro to Trinitarian Theology)
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In this video, I have a conversation with Matthew Barrett about his new book Simply Trinity. We discuss classical Trinitarian theology, social Trinitarianism, and ESS.
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The modern attacks on how the Church has viewed the Trinity for pretty much all of its history are very disturbing. Thank you for this video!
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
Thank you for tackling tough issues, even the ones I was not aware of before you bring them up. God's peace be with you
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
I have been struggling with unitarianism lately. Thanks for this.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
@@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool
Unitarianism i think is the truth because it leads to eternal life
This was very helpful. Especially the discussion at the end about the problems of eternal subordination.
An excellent discussion. Matthew has become a good friend; an unusual Baptist connects with a Great Tradition Anglican! Thank you for all the time and energy you devoted to presenting mere Christianity.
Similarly when you ask an evangelical the difference between monothelitisim and dyothelitism, you’ll realise how little we think about these things.
Two of my favorite theologians together!
To say this topic is critical is already a big understatement.
I just had a comment argument with a woman who believes that Christ returned in 1948. She appears to be a modalist. She says that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are all God but one at a time.
She also insists on Sabath worship, calling Sunday worship pagan, celebrating the Mosaic Law feasts especially passover, women covering their heads and Israelite dietary law.
She called me a false prophet. I replied that I am not a prophet ar all. I have Scrioture and some aid from those who have gone before I also called her beliefs a false gospel which is no Gospel at all.
I have his book "none greater" great book on the Christian doctrine of God.
I thought you conversation with Matthew was okay, but I just wanted to make some comments on your discussion.
The first point of possible disagreement I see how is how the Monarchy of the Father is not really discussed thoroughly in your discussion. This is important because in the early Church, the common response to accusations of polytheism was that they responded by saying that there is one God because there is one Father. The most famous expositors of this position were the Cappadocian Fathers. Another important observation is what they meant when they said that the one God is the Father. They explained that the word God in that sense indicated that the Father is the One Source of all things or from a more Latin perspective the Father is the First Principle of all things. The Cappadocians are not the only ones to hold to this position. Pretty much anyone from the East would hold to this position from St. Athanasius to St. John of Damascus and also in the Western church such as St. Irenaeus and even St. Augustine.
I know it’s old but just found it. This was great guys!!
Moltmann is Reformed actually (I mean, not really, but..)
.
Excellent video ❤
why does this man sound like Ross from friends?
great video. thanks for opening up my eyes to some stuff. I gotta study the creed more.
I give thanks for scholars like you who are trying to reclaim a true orthodoxy. I am an Old Testament scholar and I find the whole treatment of scripture in the modern period as almost nauseating.
Please post the article by Iron or Irons?
How does it not follow from the argument of, “a social model moves toward or results in tri-theism” (paraphrase mine), that it would cut both ways? As in, “a strong DDS moves toward or results in modalism”.
Dr. Cooper: Who are some good Lutheran authors to read on the Trinity, since - say - 1750 or later? I confess I don't know where to find good modern articulations of Lutheran doctrine outside of something much more formal like a catechism (which would not suit my curiosity to any real depth). Are there any Lutheran theological works or systematics that you think do a good job on the Trinity from the 18th century or later?
When I asked Dr Cooper this question about a book on the trinity the other day he actually recommend the book that this video is about, Simply Trinity. From what I can tell, being Lutherans hold to the historical view of the trinity, they don't publish much new work on it outside of systematic theology volumes.
@@chrisj123165 I'm trying to do historical theology, so I need a bridge theologian between 20/21st centuries and 16/17th centuries. If Lutheranism underwent a dearth of theological output in the 18/19th centuries that would be good to know. If I have to turn to Anglicanism or Presbyterianism for Trinitarian output in that era instead of Lutheranism that would be an interesting concession.
@@JoshuaMNielsen Franklin Weidner would be late 19th century / early 20th is that too recent for your studies?
@@JoshuaMNielsen and Milton Valentine and CFW Walther would be slightly before him in the mid 19th century. Not really sure about 18th century though.
@@chrisj123165 Ah nice. I have not heard of either of them. Thanks! The only more recent Lutheran theologian I know is Franz Pieper. I'll look into those you mentioned though.
Hey, quick question. Not sure if I fully understood all of the talking points here, but I was wondering if you could do a video explaining the separation of classical trinitarianism from modalism? I am often worried we slip into modalism too easily also. Thanks!
Furthermore, I think that part of the temptation toward Social Trinitarianism (basically just away from Classical Theism, generally) in Lutheran circles is the whole "Revealed God" vs "Hidden God" thing that advocates of basing their theologies on the Heidelberg Disputation, to put it nicely, have a tendency towards.
In their view. Since we can't (and shouldn't?) try to understand God apart from His revelation, Natural Revelation is out of bounds -- and by extention classical ideas about God.
Long story short... this weird approach to Sola Scriptura ends up resulting in only seeing the Economic Trinity (sadly, inevitably this will result in rejecting the Trinity entirely).
Actually, if you want to read Luther himself’s discussion of the preached and unpreached God as it applies to the Trinity, read his work The Last Words of David. As regards your earlier comment, I think Chemnitz Two Natures and also Luther’s “The Last Words of David” sufficiently explain phrases like “God died” without sliding into the statements by Jensen. Also, a simple reading of the Council of Ephesus would suffice as well. But then people would be reading “the sources” something today’s readers seem prone to NOT do.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
You read both their books in one week?? 😦
Based on what you two have said, does Covenant Theology then pressupose some sort of social trinitarianism?
I would say no, both Dr White and Doug Wilson who hold to reformed covenant theology (especially Wilson with Federal vision) and they both reject social trinitarianism especially the eternal subordination of the son.
I believe in EFS, Social Trinity, monothelitism, as well as inseparable operations and have yet to hear anyone give biblical evidence to refute them thoroughly. It’s interesting that most churches will probably never ask about those beliefs prior to membership. But I doubt many churches would see any of that as heresy anyway.
where does it say that Jesus is subordinate to God eternally? the only point where it describes Jesus as subordinate is the incarnation
Amen.
Moltmann is Reformed not Lutheran en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Moltmann
I know. But highly influential among German Lutherans.
Dr. Jordan B Cooper you guys both made it sound like he was Lutheran. And which German Lutherans?
How is inseparable operation coherent with basically anything with regards to incarnation? I.e. that only the Son incarnates, not the Father or the Holy spirit, that only he is crucified, or when Jesus prays to the Father, etc..?
I guess my question is can you have a social trinitarian view on a basic level. Meaning viewing the person's of the trinity being in a relationship of love, and still affirm the Nicean creed. I understand the implications of going to far with it but I guess I don't understand how it's antinicean
I hope not to cause any controversy or be off topic but I'm curious what you think of pre-Christian religions and the modern revival or Neo-pagan movements?
I live in Taiwan where pre-Christian paganism still dominates.
Was just having a conversation with a pastor who was telling me there are 4 wills in the Trinity. 3 divine plus 1 human will of the Son. Interesting
bruh that's legit blasphemy
Jesus said not my will but your will.
@@TheJesusNerd40 The human nature of Christ has a human will; however, there can only be one mind in the Blessed Trinity. If there are three wills in the Trinity then there are three gods.
Many thanks for a great discussion. I know of a good little book on perichoresis if you fellows are interested. Our "friends" at Amazon know its name.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
.
:)
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
Sorry, Jesus isn’t God, nor equal to God. He called our God and Father his God and Father at John 20:17.
Sola Scriptura is the gift that just keeps on giving.
When wrongly understood and wrongly applied, yes. But if you look at the Lutheran confessions they go back to the church fathers and scripture for the source of their beliefs and hold to the 7 ecumenical councils. Nice try though
@@chrisj123165 All the understanding I need to apply Sola Scriptura rightly can be found in Scripture, obviously.
@@billyhw5492 so instead of trying to learn about what you are actually referring too, you choose to stay ignorant. Got it.
@@chrisj123165 Enough with your traditions of men!
@@billyhw5492 Hahahahahhahahahah scripture time and time again says to obey it. So you are now calling what the Apostles said doctrine of men? Cool.
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16, ESV)
I learned from this video how horribly misunderstood and misapplied Rahner's book on the Trinity became. This is evident to me, as so many of the things attributed in this lecture to what 'followed' from the 'rule' in no way actually 'follow' from it (tritheism, subordinationism, etc). At least on my reading, the fundamental impulse was clearly lost. This is very sad, theologically; especially its placement as such a culprit of degeneration! Perhaps it is a function of the 'rule' being applied outside the counterbalance of the total Church context, where these individual psychological and social interpretations can have much less play. But, not being an expert, I can't say. All I know is, reading Rahner's _Trinity_ in the context of the saints, there's so many tools designed to avoid what's described. Admittedly, beginning from the experience of grace and the situation of salvation history carries its risk (though trying to get 'behind' God's concrete revelation and self-communication of himself seems a doomed, foolish, arbitrary, abstract endeavor). Still it is my sense that Rahner's writings have a greater future than that described or that criticized so far. I gladly leave that to the Spirit.
Thank you for the exchange, though for me, at times a difficult hearing. It is hard to hear how far dogma can go astray. God be with us.
Social Trinitarianisim=Polytheism
As a modalist, I find the idea of a social Trinitarian framework repulsive,and the very worst of polypersonal theories.
Who is the Holy Spirit? He is the Father-Spirit, i.e. the FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT ("God is a spirit"). NO THIRD GOD-PERSON EXISTS. We are sure that the Father (who is a spirit) - the Father-Spirit - is inside Jesus, to lead Him in precise manner, see for ex. "The statements which I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father ABIDING IN ME is doing his works.". Has Jesus got TWO SPIRITS INSIDE Him? Negative, Jesus states "I am not ALONE because the Father is with me". ONLY THE FATHER IS INSIDE JESUS! This means that "Holy Spirit" is just ANOTHER NAME for the Father who is a spirit. Confusion can arise because Jesus has the "Father who is a spirit" and calls Him sometimes "FATHER" (Holy) (generally when Himself is concerned), sometimes "SPIRIT" (Holy, of God, of the Father...) when other people are concerned. But what about the "Counselor"? The Counselor "...will not [1] SPEAK on His own, but whatever He [2] HEARS, He will [3] REVEAL.". That - even if somewhat "disguised" - is exactly the same formula used by Jesus, when referring to the FATHER INSIDE HIM! Please compare that verse to "What things I [1] SPEAK, just as the Father has [2] SAID them to me, I [3] SPEAK them just so.". This clearly means that the Counselor IS NOT the Holy Spirit, but SOMEONE (?) WHO ALREADY HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT INSIDE HIM. And what about the term "Holy Spirit" cited there ? " 26 But the Counselor XXXXXXX whom the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things..." You can see that this verse makes perfectly SENSE even WITHOUT the word "Holy Spirit", so that that word could have been added at a later time (by an unknown little hand?). The remaining part of the whole "Counselor chapter" doesn't include ANY further reference to the Holy Spirit.